I think the sides are balanced pretty well. It is also true, that aliens are harder to learn than marines. But the main problem is that aliens are simply less fun than marines. The weak skulk that is only really viable in the early game is the main problem, because it is the default alien. Before the builds were the skulk bite range was shortened, aliens were overpowered. But they were fun.
I don't say make aliens overpowered again, or lengthen the skulk bite cone. But it should something be done to compensate. Skulks should be smaller. Maybe introduce it as upgrade for the khammander. So he can decrease skulk size to counter weapon upgrades. It is asymmetrical and can scale.
The higher life forms are ok, but the onos is definitely to easy to play. It takes way to little skill. Reduce his health, and add the bone shield mechanic. (= invul on the front when crouching, besides some small spots on the front legs. Look closely on the onos model. There are already bone plates and spots on the legs, that have non. It just needs an updated hitbox.)
TL;DR: Aliens are balanced, but not fun. Skulk is to weak, onos to easy. And early second hive should not be the most valid tactic.
Temphage's posts have a hint of passion in them. But frankly, I don't blame him, because the slew of negative changes from NS1 to NS2 are simply staggering.
I've considered constructing an updated list of changes but I wouldn't be surprised if it's been done already. Of course, then there are arguments that because NS2 is a different game, some of the changes may be warranted or even beneficial.
From what I've seen, aliens are balanced solely because of the 6 minute onos drop. Everything else has been neutered, to at least some extent, to compensate for this. An obvious solution to this would be to fix this particular issue, and then work on improving other functionalities (parasite, other lifeform's late game, etc..) But it might not be as simple as that.
Another issue is the question of what skill tier do we balance for? An obvious answer to this would be: "All skill levels," but it's not really as easy as that. Aliens are harder to play in general, so they need to be rewarded for good play (and thus be slightly more powerful) but only to a certain point that doesn't push them over the edge. If we give aliens too much reward for good play, they'll win every match in the competitive scene. But if we don't give the aliens enough reward, pubs will see marine domination. We could simply make aliens easier to play, but I don't think anyone wants to see that happen.
Giving aliens more options will probably alleviate a lot of the negative feelings towards Aliens in NS2, I think. I know coming from NS1, seeing the marines get all this cool stuff and losing little more than electrification, while aliens lose a full 3 evolutions and some traits, not to mention having a commander as well as the infestation mechanic, disappointment was the most prevalent emotion I could feel. I hoped a greater understanding of the game would alleviate that, but I'm afraid there's just no objective evidence to support the notion aliens are in a good place right now.
Balanced? Kind of. In a really bad way, yes, aliens are balanced. But so much could be improved.
Honestly, it seems Aliens are mostly balanced around early game right now. Aliens do tons of damage, but don't have much health. Their mobility and damage however does not scale well into mid or late game.
Personally, I think retooling how the aliens work completely is required, and have some ideas on the subject, but not sure if I should say further on it.
What bothers me is that UWE seemingly was balancing the game at the point where FPS were really low which kinda favored aliens and changed balance accordingly to make both sides more even. Now with increased FPS, we are stuck with most of the previous balance changes while the balance itself has shifted again through raw increase of fps. I could be wrong ofcourse, but I have that impression at least.
One of the large problems is how expensive and yet disposable Aliens are. The Marines are disposable too, but they don't take a big hit if they die. It's bizarre, because the science-fiction dichotomy of space Marine versus space Alien is always one of quality over quantity.
First, consider personal resource. The vanilla Marine is viable at all points of the game, whereas Skulks become increasing redundant. The Marine has more room to save his pres for the late game, whereas the Alien is more pressured to use his pres <i>immediately</i> to stay viable. The Marine only has to spend 20 pres to get a weapon that hard counters all of the Alien forms that roll out at the same time as the Shotgun yet these forms are 30-50 pres by comparison. If the Marine dies, he can <i>return and pick up his weapon</i>. If he isn't able to, he's still viable with the LMG. The Alien can't return to his previous form, and he reverts an increasingly redundant Skulk.
The risk and reward balance is screwed up. Aliens take significantly more risk than Marines yet receive less reward. Their forms are weaker by comparison and yet cost more. Virtually all the Aliens are good at is hit and run and taking out single targets. That's great for the early game, but the game is deeper than just securing kills. When it comes time to siege the Marines and push them back, you have Bile Bomb or a massive reliance on Onos. When it comes time for objective-based gameplay, it just doesn't feel like the Aliens stack up. It feels like the only time I've won on the Aliens team is by zerg rushing them early or backdooring them when they go all-in. There has never really been a neck and neck struggle we pushed through to win.
Meanwhile, every Marine game feels like a progressive victory.
Aliens are without a doubt the weaker team at the moment. For the Aliens to have any chance you need 50% more teamwork then the Marines do. Marine teamwork consists of building stuff for commander and moving around in a group. That's all they need to master NS2 wise, they can then use their COD skills for the rest.
As well as that Marines get so many bonuses that when put together can make a huge difference. There are hall hacking ARCs which do really incredible things through solid steel. Then there are the MACs which can go around repairing everything, thereby freeing up players to do other things. Phase gates let you move around the map better then Aliens can. Beacon stops any kind of Alien teamwork to attempting to hit the Marine base. Lets not even compare Marine commander vs Alien ones (health/ammo drops, scan).
The third issue if the vulnerability of the Aliens. Once they lose that second hive it's all over against a Marine team that knows how to play. That's 40 res points gone, plus the upgrade if it was upgraded (+15) plus their upgrade structures another 15 each plus their upgrades another +10/+15. Marines can lose all their buildings and keep all their research once they build them again.
The 4th issue is the annoying evolve thing. Why on earth as they spawn have to re-evolve with some upgrades they have already picked each time. Its just bad gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=2013997:date=Nov 7 2012, 02:40 PM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 7 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the large problems is how expensive and yet disposable Aliens are. The Marines are disposable too, but they don't take a big hit if they die. It's bizarre, because the science-fiction dichotomy of space Marine versus space Alien is always one of quality over quantity.
First, consider personal resource. The vanilla Marine is viable at all points of the game, whereas Skulks become increasing redundant. The Marine has more room to save his pres for the late game, whereas the Alien is more pressured to use his pres <i>immediately</i> to stay viable. The Marine only has to spend 20 pres to get a weapon that hard counters all of the Alien forms that roll out at the same time as the Shotgun yet these forms are 30-50 pres by comparison. If the Marine dies, he can <i>return and pick up his weapon</i>. If he isn't able to, he's still viable with the LMG. The Alien can't return to his previous form, and he reverts an increasingly redundant Skulk.
The risk and reward balance is screwed up. Aliens take significantly more risk than Marines yet receive less reward. Their forms are weaker by comparison and yet cost more. Virtually all the Aliens are good at is hit and run and taking out single targets. That's great for the early game, but the game is deeper than just securing kills. When it comes time to siege the Marines and push them back, you have Bile Bomb or a massive reliance on Onos. When it comes time for objective-based gameplay, it just doesn't feel like the Aliens stack up. It feels like the only time I've won on the Aliens team is by zerg rushing them early or backdooring them when they go all-in. There has never really been a neck and neck struggle we pushed through to win.
Meanwhile, every Marine game feels like a progressive victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never thought I'd say it but I agree here. :) While the glasscannon'ish nature of aliens partially goes away with experience, its still there and is very newbie unfriendly.
Edit: And yeah, "glass cannons" is a relative term too since skulks need to chomp a bit too much on armor 3 marines, same for fades. :p
The issue isn't that the marine/alien win ratio is off (it isn't) it's that Kharaa internal balance is wrong. Lerks and Fades are really bad for the res investment, while Onos is extremely good. The same problem exists in the upgrades, celerity is simply so vital to alien ability to control the map and attack marine positions that the other options simply aren't practical for the first upgrade. The weaker options need to be buffed to increase their viability while the currently strong options should probably remain (or take a modest nerf) as they are since they are all that is keeping the Kharaa on 50:50.
Agree with Destroid and Tempage, the game overall is pretty balanced but are the Aliens fun to play not for me at least. I've reduced my NS playtime these last couple of days because the marine team is always full and the aliens always need more players so I feel I have to play Alien. I don't blame them though Alien is simply not fun to play.
<!--quoteo(post=2013997:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:40 AM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 7 2012, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the large problems is how expensive and yet disposable Aliens are. The Marines are disposable too, but they don't take a big hit if they die. It's bizarre, because the science-fiction dichotomy of space Marine versus space Alien is always one of quality over quantity.
First, consider personal resource. The vanilla Marine is viable at all points of the game, whereas Skulks become increasing redundant. The Marine has more room to save his pres for the late game, whereas the Alien is more pressured to use his pres <i>immediately</i> to stay viable. The Marine only has to spend 20 pres to get a weapon that hard counters all of the Alien forms that roll out at the same time as the Shotgun yet these forms are 30-50 pres by comparison. If the Marine dies, he can <i>return and pick up his weapon</i>. If he isn't able to, he's still viable with the LMG. The Alien can't return to his previous form, and he reverts an increasingly redundant Skulk.
The risk and reward balance is screwed up. Aliens take significantly more risk than Marines yet receive less reward. Their forms are weaker by comparison and yet cost more. Virtually all the Aliens are good at is hit and run and taking out single targets. That's great for the early game, but the game is deeper than just securing kills. When it comes time to siege the Marines and push them back, you have Bile Bomb or a massive reliance on Onos. When it comes time for objective-based gameplay, it just doesn't feel like the Aliens stack up. It feels like the only time I've won on the Aliens team is by zerg rushing them early or backdooring them when they go all-in. There has never really been a neck and neck struggle we pushed through to win.
Meanwhile, every Marine game feels like a progressive victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vanilla Marine definitely isn't viable at all points of the game. LMG Marine, 0/0-3/3, can't take an Onos or a Fade. Fade will die if it tries to solo multiple Marines, but the Onos will just bulldoze through them. Compare this to the Exo, whose greatest weakness are Skulks and Gorges.
Anywho, if I'd been designing the game, I'd have designed it around Aliens having twice the number of players as the Marines (So the average game size is something like 8vs16), but too late now, 'cause mechanics would have to be changed. Strangely, if it were inverted, it would work with the current game mechanics because the lower the player count, the stronger the Aliens are.
<!--quoteo(post=2013658:date=Nov 6 2012, 09:43 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 6 2012, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks fail at the endgame. I'd love you to argue that they don't.
- Xenocide is terribly weak, forces you to eat a death, sit in the spawn queue, costs you pres (because you're dead and earning none), and eats eggs.
- A3 > skulk bite. If we all agree that skulk vs. marine is 'fair' at the beginning, then we all must agree that they're underpowered later. Marines only kill them faster and they die to skulks slower, when the opposite does not happen. Logically they must be underpowered at that point. W3 counters Carapace almost exactly but nothing counters A3, so marines become much more effective.
- Parasite is garbage since they nerfed it in three different ways.
- Leap is neutered and nowhere near as powerful as it used to be, does no damage, and consumes more energy, making the skulk that much less effective against jetpackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. all of this is very accurate. "If we all agree that skulk vs. marine is 'fair' at the beginning, then we all must agree that they're underpowered later" Thank you sir
They need to balance the game for different skill levels. Sure it may be balanced and even fun at the highest skill cap, but if the aliens have a deeper learning curve or if the skill to reward conversion is too different between the two races, it will be very hard to have fun and balance games in pub servers.
I question the wisdom of those who claim that the game is currently balanced for pub play. The funny thing is, they often claimthat it is not possible to tell for sure that the game is unbalanced, but yet insist that the game is probably balanced themselves. For the sake of moving the discussion along, those who currently think that aliens need a rework are starting to cede that the game is balanced, to the contrarian naysayers. But make no mistake, neither party has the word on the issue of balance. We are only doing that it COULD be for all we know, but even then it doesn't matter.
Part of the problem I feel for Aliens is they can't raid as effectively as they should. Without celerity they are rather slow and take a while to move around the map. The Marines in comparison with their phase gates can take about a second to move from one side of the map to the other. They also have beacon.
Marines can defend too easily and turtle as well as expand more easier then the Aliens. Their sentries can help lock down areas and their commander has robots that free up manpower from needing to repair things.
Comments
I don't say make aliens overpowered again, or lengthen the skulk bite cone. But it should something be done to compensate. Skulks should be smaller. Maybe introduce it as upgrade for the khammander. So he can decrease skulk size to counter weapon upgrades. It is asymmetrical and can scale.
The higher life forms are ok, but the onos is definitely to easy to play. It takes way to little skill. Reduce his health, and add the bone shield mechanic. (= invul on the front when crouching, besides some small spots on the front legs. Look closely on the onos model. There are already bone plates and spots on the legs, that have non. It just needs an updated hitbox.)
TL;DR: Aliens are balanced, but not fun. Skulk is to weak, onos to easy. And early second hive should not be the most valid tactic.
I've considered constructing an updated list of changes but I wouldn't be surprised if it's been done already. Of course, then there are arguments that because NS2 is a different game, some of the changes may be warranted or even beneficial.
From what I've seen, aliens are balanced solely because of the 6 minute onos drop. Everything else has been neutered, to at least some extent, to compensate for this. An obvious solution to this would be to fix this particular issue, and then work on improving other functionalities (parasite, other lifeform's late game, etc..) But it might not be as simple as that.
Another issue is the question of what skill tier do we balance for? An obvious answer to this would be: "All skill levels," but it's not really as easy as that. Aliens are harder to play in general, so they need to be rewarded for good play (and thus be slightly more powerful) but only to a certain point that doesn't push them over the edge. If we give aliens too much reward for good play, they'll win every match in the competitive scene. But if we don't give the aliens enough reward, pubs will see marine domination. We could simply make aliens easier to play, but I don't think anyone wants to see that happen.
Giving aliens more options will probably alleviate a lot of the negative feelings towards Aliens in NS2, I think. I know coming from NS1, seeing the marines get all this cool stuff and losing little more than electrification, while aliens lose a full 3 evolutions and some traits, not to mention having a commander as well as the infestation mechanic, disappointment was the most prevalent emotion I could feel. I hoped a greater understanding of the game would alleviate that, but I'm afraid there's just no objective evidence to support the notion aliens are in a good place right now.
Balanced? Kind of. In a really bad way, yes, aliens are balanced. But so much could be improved.
Personally, I think retooling how the aliens work completely is required, and have some ideas on the subject, but not sure if I should say further on it.
I'm asking for buffs on both sides
Flamethrower needs help
GL and Exo probably need minor boosts on marines
Whips, remaining 3 upgrades, and several abilities on aliens need looking at
A bunch of build orders on aliens is super expensive right now too
First, consider personal resource. The vanilla Marine is viable at all points of the game, whereas Skulks become increasing redundant. The Marine has more room to save his pres for the late game, whereas the Alien is more pressured to use his pres <i>immediately</i> to stay viable. The Marine only has to spend 20 pres to get a weapon that hard counters all of the Alien forms that roll out at the same time as the Shotgun yet these forms are 30-50 pres by comparison. If the Marine dies, he can <i>return and pick up his weapon</i>. If he isn't able to, he's still viable with the LMG. The Alien can't return to his previous form, and he reverts an increasingly redundant Skulk.
The risk and reward balance is screwed up. Aliens take significantly more risk than Marines yet receive less reward. Their forms are weaker by comparison and yet cost more. Virtually all the Aliens are good at is hit and run and taking out single targets. That's great for the early game, but the game is deeper than just securing kills. When it comes time to siege the Marines and push them back, you have Bile Bomb or a massive reliance on Onos. When it comes time for objective-based gameplay, it just doesn't feel like the Aliens stack up. It feels like the only time I've won on the Aliens team is by zerg rushing them early or backdooring them when they go all-in. There has never really been a neck and neck struggle we pushed through to win.
Meanwhile, every Marine game feels like a progressive victory.
As well as that Marines get so many bonuses that when put together can make a huge difference. There are hall hacking ARCs which do really incredible things through solid steel. Then there are the MACs which can go around repairing everything, thereby freeing up players to do other things. Phase gates let you move around the map better then Aliens can. Beacon stops any kind of Alien teamwork to attempting to hit the Marine base. Lets not even compare Marine commander vs Alien ones (health/ammo drops, scan).
The third issue if the vulnerability of the Aliens. Once they lose that second hive it's all over against a Marine team that knows how to play. That's 40 res points gone, plus the upgrade if it was upgraded (+15) plus their upgrade structures another 15 each plus their upgrades another +10/+15. Marines can lose all their buildings and keep all their research once they build them again.
The 4th issue is the annoying evolve thing. Why on earth as they spawn have to re-evolve with some upgrades they have already picked each time. Its just bad gameplay.
First, consider personal resource. The vanilla Marine is viable at all points of the game, whereas Skulks become increasing redundant. The Marine has more room to save his pres for the late game, whereas the Alien is more pressured to use his pres <i>immediately</i> to stay viable. The Marine only has to spend 20 pres to get a weapon that hard counters all of the Alien forms that roll out at the same time as the Shotgun yet these forms are 30-50 pres by comparison. If the Marine dies, he can <i>return and pick up his weapon</i>. If he isn't able to, he's still viable with the LMG. The Alien can't return to his previous form, and he reverts an increasingly redundant Skulk.
The risk and reward balance is screwed up. Aliens take significantly more risk than Marines yet receive less reward. Their forms are weaker by comparison and yet cost more. Virtually all the Aliens are good at is hit and run and taking out single targets. That's great for the early game, but the game is deeper than just securing kills. When it comes time to siege the Marines and push them back, you have Bile Bomb or a massive reliance on Onos. When it comes time for objective-based gameplay, it just doesn't feel like the Aliens stack up. It feels like the only time I've won on the Aliens team is by zerg rushing them early or backdooring them when they go all-in. There has never really been a neck and neck struggle we pushed through to win.
Meanwhile, every Marine game feels like a progressive victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never thought I'd say it but I agree here. :) While the glasscannon'ish nature of aliens partially goes away with experience, its still there and is very newbie unfriendly.
Edit: And yeah, "glass cannons" is a relative term too since skulks need to chomp a bit too much on armor 3 marines, same for fades. :p
First, consider personal resource. The vanilla Marine is viable at all points of the game, whereas Skulks become increasing redundant. The Marine has more room to save his pres for the late game, whereas the Alien is more pressured to use his pres <i>immediately</i> to stay viable. The Marine only has to spend 20 pres to get a weapon that hard counters all of the Alien forms that roll out at the same time as the Shotgun yet these forms are 30-50 pres by comparison. If the Marine dies, he can <i>return and pick up his weapon</i>. If he isn't able to, he's still viable with the LMG. The Alien can't return to his previous form, and he reverts an increasingly redundant Skulk.
The risk and reward balance is screwed up. Aliens take significantly more risk than Marines yet receive less reward. Their forms are weaker by comparison and yet cost more. Virtually all the Aliens are good at is hit and run and taking out single targets. That's great for the early game, but the game is deeper than just securing kills. When it comes time to siege the Marines and push them back, you have Bile Bomb or a massive reliance on Onos. When it comes time for objective-based gameplay, it just doesn't feel like the Aliens stack up. It feels like the only time I've won on the Aliens team is by zerg rushing them early or backdooring them when they go all-in. There has never really been a neck and neck struggle we pushed through to win.
Meanwhile, every Marine game feels like a progressive victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vanilla Marine definitely isn't viable at all points of the game. LMG Marine, 0/0-3/3, can't take an Onos or a Fade. Fade will die if it tries to solo multiple Marines, but the Onos will just bulldoze through them. Compare this to the Exo, whose greatest weakness are Skulks and Gorges.
Anywho, if I'd been designing the game, I'd have designed it around Aliens having twice the number of players as the Marines (So the average game size is something like 8vs16), but too late now, 'cause mechanics would have to be changed. Strangely, if it were inverted, it would work with the current game mechanics because the lower the player count, the stronger the Aliens are.
- Xenocide is terribly weak, forces you to eat a death, sit in the spawn queue, costs you pres (because you're dead and earning none), and eats eggs.
- A3 > skulk bite. If we all agree that skulk vs. marine is 'fair' at the beginning, then we all must agree that they're underpowered later. Marines only kill them faster and they die to skulks slower, when the opposite does not happen. Logically they must be underpowered at that point. W3 counters Carapace almost exactly but nothing counters A3, so marines become much more effective.
- Parasite is garbage since they nerfed it in three different ways.
- Leap is neutered and nowhere near as powerful as it used to be, does no damage, and consumes more energy, making the skulk that much less effective against jetpackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. all of this is very accurate.
"If we all agree that skulk vs. marine is 'fair' at the beginning, then we all must agree that they're underpowered later" Thank you sir
I question the wisdom of those who claim that the game is currently balanced for pub play. The funny thing is, they often claimthat it is not possible to tell for sure that the game is unbalanced, but yet insist that the game is probably balanced themselves. For the sake of moving the discussion along, those who currently think that aliens need a rework are starting to cede that the game is balanced, to the contrarian naysayers. But make no mistake, neither party has the word on the issue of balance. We are only doing that it COULD be for all we know, but even then it doesn't matter.
The ball is in your court people.
Marines can defend too easily and turtle as well as expand more easier then the Aliens. Their sentries can help lock down areas and their commander has robots that free up manpower from needing to repair things.