I would rather the developers spend their precious time and resources on balance tweaks and new content that actually means something in the game than useless aesthetics.
I had a feeling this thread would be flamed. OP has some valid points. there are two sides to this predicament we find ourselves in. one camp (the majority) doesn't like the idea of mindless xp grinding and/or achievements, because of the completely justified feeling of monotony. The other camp, the (not necessarily wrong) minority, agree that some form of mechanic used typically to hook players into AAA titles would benefit the community with more players. as hate has said, the psychological reinforcement of achievement and progression DOES keep players hooked, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I, like many other players, want to see this game as huge as any other game in the esporting world.
I think it ultimately boils down into one issue. The void left after a hard fought game. We've all felt it (I'm 97% sure). Maybe you can deny it, maybe you've learned to live with it like I have for the love of the game. What multiplayer game developers are trying to do with games like COD is fill the post game void. perhaps mindless grind is our first and worst attempt to fill the post game void. Maybe, as a community, we can come up with something. our own way of filling this void.
considering we already have a third party taking care of personal stats, something I would personally love to see clan support, and clan ladders support/ tournament support implemented into the game. this negates the pointlessness of grind because your working towards something as a clan, which is a much greater sense of achievement than solo grinding. though for those not in a clan, or don't want to/cant play with there clan because they were kicked out for gross misconduct, can choose to party up with a matchmade team of up to 8 players who always play on the same side (obviously). If you have enjoyed yourself with said players, you have an option to click 'continue playing with these guys'. Other players in your party who have also clicked to continue will..well continue with you. players who don't click, they'll just be replaced by matchmaking. If you all agree your team can become a permanent fixture easily accessible through clan support. Like some sort of mini clan or squad, if you will. A mini clan/squad that you can enter with into tournaments, win tournaments, rise up the ranks, become household names, have billions of cult followers and, of course, woman. Or something to that affect.
I may be wrong of course. Maybe the void I have now mentioned 6 times doesn't even exist and its all in my head. But there is defiantly something making me long for a sense of real competition and accomplishment that i feel i should already been feeling.
Are you kidding? I like this game cause I don't have to worry about my K/D don't have to consider how I compare to other players(because it's a team) and don't have to worry about the next big unlock. Visual unlocks are fine though, I felt that was actually an appealing aspect of Halo: Reach, sometimes I would play to have fun and others to push for that new hat that doesn't alter my game(whilst having fun, otherwise, what's the point?).
So you need a pointless treadmill system of false progression with unlocking shiny medals for ADHD autists that can't play any game for more than 5 minutes without the game jiggling keys in their face and telling them how good they are? No sorry, wrong floor, this isn't console gaming.
Its not their fault guys, these COD gamers. They are used to playing games so unfulfilling that the only reason they do it is to push a needle along an XP bar. To them I say, suffer no more! NS2 is actually <b>enjoyable</b>, and simply playing the game is reward enough!
I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they need a reason. The OP merely suggested that implementing a system like this to draw players would benefit the developers and possibly the player base, by increasing the number of people playing the game. I and a few others wouldn't be opposed to this and understand how it can help keep players playing the game longer. It's not something necessary, but a lot of people would think it's cool. Steam achievements would even be pretty easy to make, I think. Little bells and whistles like that can go a long way.
We don't need to draw players who don't like the game for what it is. If NS2 isn't up their alley, it's not the game for them. Neither the playerbase nor the developers would benefit from people who have no interest beyond the cycle of addiction modern FPSs use to trick their players into wasting their time and money.
More money going to the devs means more money spent on fixing this game and making new ones, and that's a good thing for everyone imo. But your point is completely valid as well.
UWE are working on supporting and fixing up NS2 as fast as they can. While money is, as it is in general, good, it won't magically fix any of the bugs any faster. It took NS1 years after launch to get to anything resembling its final form. It's been about a week for NS2; I'll have some concerns if we haven't had improvements in months.
They've refunded in full the pre-launch purchases of everyone who wasn't satisfied, and even allowed them to keep the game. They distributed tens of thousands of free copies in total to every single pre-purchaser to thank them for their help and to spread the fun of their vision. UWE are game-makers, not money-farmers.
That's awesome and very respectable. No way I could ask for a refund on this game, I bought it over a year ago and I've definitely had more fun with the money I've spent than I would have on pretty much anything else. The game is sooooo close to being my favorite game ever that some of the things that are wrong with it feel like nails dragging across a chalk board. Personally? I have much more respect for people who do things the way they have. But I don't there's anything wrong with a little bit of money farming every now and then :p
Regarding Achievements, those are fine as long as most of them are fun like TF2 ones. If they're mostly just kill X Skulks/Marines/Fades/Onii then not so much. These can come later in a big update, though. Stats would be welcome, and will likely help balance.
Achievements for the early players are ok, as in you can unlock them all in 20 rounds or something. But really, the need for constant validation is what's a foot here. If you need the game to tell you "Hey, You're just great! Here, have some ###### to make this easier!" then NS2 is <i><b>absolutely</b></i> not the game you are looking for.
This game is about working as a team to meet goals which are clearly defined in outcome but vary greatly in execution. You feel good when you win because its not easy and you did a good job together. How is that not enough? I find NS to be one of the most compelling games I've ever played.
Even in terms of implementing this purely aesthetic progression system for nothing more than drawing more players, I think it would be bad for the game.
Think about it. You're a new player, your names in green, you have 1 for 20, you are a complete drain on your team, Ok you feel pretty lame. Now imagine the same situation, but you bring up the scoreboard and what do you see? A bunch of no-life rank 27s on the other team. Maaan screw this game its all about playing for hours and hours, IMA PLAY BF3.
The only way you will be able to give NS2 some kind of grand purpose to it, would be to develop the game in a way that it could never be played again once one faction wins. Meaning, you could only have one huge map with several battlefields leading up to the total conquest by either faction, which would then delete the game/server, and the clan with the highest ranking on the winning faction would have their names marked up in the history books as the greatest warriors that ever lived. Oh wait, that too has no significant purpose.
But, if all you want is a bigger fan base, go mainstream. I can't see why not. It's always fun to watch people who focus on hierarchy scurry about their lives in blissful ignorance of their pointless existence.
My post has no point. I just felt like writing what came to mind.
<!--quoteo(post=2016611:date=Nov 9 2012, 07:18 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 9 2012, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't need to draw players who don't like the game for what it is. If NS2 isn't up their alley, it's not the game for them. Neither the playerbase nor the developers would benefit from people who have no interest beyond the cycle of addiction modern FPSs use to trick their players into wasting their time and money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Techercizer puts it the best I think.
I hope UWE will not give in to stats grinding. NS to me is about teamplay, not being the single best player. For that you can play Quake Arena like games or plenty of other cookie cutter shooters.
Stats are fine, achivements are only useful if they do not encourage players to use another playing style. Right now there are so many tasks which are very beneficial for the win of the team, but which do not yield any kills.
All the players supporting the team by killing restowers, healing, weldin, building ###### - that's essential. If everybody would just be striving for the best KD it would ###### up the game.
Sure, this could be circumvented by clever achievments not beeing based on kills, but i still think it's not necessary. The people playing NS2 play NS2 because they love exactly what NS2 is and they already get enough motiviation out of playing NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2016676:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:43 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 9 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even in terms of implementing this purely aesthetic progression system for nothing more than drawing more players, I think it would be bad for the game.
Think about it. You're a new player, your names in green, you have 1 for 20, you are a complete drain on your team, Ok you feel pretty lame. Now imagine the same situation, but you bring up the scoreboard and what do you see? A bunch of no-life rank 27s on the other team. Maaan screw this game its all about playing for hours and hours, IMA PLAY BF3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point of every piece of gameplay is - from the dev's perspective - to draw more players. If your game is generally good, you are most likely to sell more copies and vice versa. Money is the essential point behind any commercial software project. More money means more staff, faster updates, better maintenace, more and better servers, etc.,... Unless they spend it on ######s and booze, but UWE wouldn't do such a thing.
A visual unlock system's purpose can only be to draw more players. There is no other point in that, since it doesn't change the gameplay by any means. More players means more money, more money means the stuff mentioned before. Everyone profits (dev and user) from high user numbers.
<!--quoteo(post=2016611:date=Nov 8 2012, 11:18 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 8 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't need to draw players who don't like the game for what it is. If NS2 isn't up their alley, it's not the game for them. Neither the playerbase nor the developers would benefit from people who have no interest beyond the cycle of addiction modern FPSs use to trick their players into wasting their time and money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2016695:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:11 AM:name=Zaggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zaggy @ Nov 9 2012, 02:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Techercizer puts it the best I think.
I hope UWE will not give in to stats grinding. NS to me is about teamplay, not being the single best player. For that you can play Quake Arena like games or plenty of other cookie cutter shooters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This game is no religion. There is no certain spiritual mindset required to join this exclusive club. As written above everyone profits from high user numbers. It doesn't matter why people are playin the game, it only matters that they do. If you don't get this point you lack the basic understanding of economics. A leveling, stats and ranking system does not have to focus the solo gameplay performance. If developed correctly it can encourage teamplay, while being only minimal vulnerable to grinding. A simple black/white view on design decisions isn't helpful. It comes down to how different mechanics are implemented and balanced towards each other. Im getting there more detailed below. <!--quoteo(post=2016730:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:58 AM:name=d.n.M.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d.n.M. @ Nov 9 2012, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stats are fine, achivements are only useful if they do not encourage players to use another playing style. Right now there are so many tasks which are very beneficial for the win of the team, but which do not yield any kills.
All the players supporting the team by killing restowers, healing, weldin, building ###### - that's essential. If everybody would just be striving for the best KD it would ###### up the game.
Sure, this could be circumvented by clever achievments not beeing based on kills, but i still think it's not necessary. The people playing NS2 play NS2 because they love exactly what NS2 is and they already get enough motiviation out of playing NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely agree that the reward and achievement system has to be chosen carefully. It would definetely not help if it worked against team play. But there are solutions and design decisions to make this possible. Achievements like "Kill 20 Skulks in a row, while camping behind the same door all game long" is nothing anybody wants. But other stuff like "Heal 1000 HP on a single allied Exo Suit" would help very much, since it encourages essential team- and gameplay mechanics. Achievements should be used to encourage every form of good play, not force a certain unhelpful playstyle like "kill 10 Skulks with welders". It is all about design decisions. Achievements are not bad in general, it comes all down to how they are implemented.
A leveling and ranking system would increase some players effort on doing a good job. The more score you earn in a round, the faster you level. Sure, the score distribution also has to be checked carefully to not encourage grinding over playin good, but that is all managable. An easy point f.e. would be to reward the winning team with a huge pile of level points, so they are working toward the victory over all other stuff. Another point would be that you have to be ingame at the end of the round to earn your points, so premature leaving would be punished. Along with this however an afk-kick function is mandatory, which is also a good thing to have anyway.
By showing your level, resp. rank ingame you can see who are the veterans in your team and who are the noobs. Makin it much easier to decide who is more likely able to com or who is able to attack/defend a certain position.
To Statistics: I see that tracking a K/D wouldn't benefit the game, since it encourages camping and ###### gameplay. But W/L f.e. would. Allthough you are not solely responsible for your team's performance, it would in general encourage every single person to play better. Average score per round, commanding performance, etc., makes some players to want to play better and more. Every form of system that motivates a better individual gameplay can't be bad.
In fact:
The Stats/Achievement/Unlock/Ranking-System is not for the players who are playin the game right now! Obviously they don't need it. It's for the potential players who are NOT playing the game because they are used to such systems and lack of motivation to play a game without. You don't like this sort of people? Well, what a pity, but it doesn't matter if you can understand their motives or not. The biggest things that matters are sales and user numbers. Reasons stated above.
P.S.: I study computational visualistics at the university in Germany and we got many lessons about how software projects are managed, paid and how to please customers. Besides that im 26 years old and have a lot of gaming experience and I saw tons of games rise and fall. So I'm not completely talking at large here. Ignoring basic design decisons who became common over time, is in general bad for a dev company. Stats, Leveling, Achievements and Unlocks is stuff that is bein expected by lots of players nowadays and it requires only few effort to implement and maintain. Not having it for moral or other reasons is something that should be reconsidered.
<!--quoteo(post=2016174:date=Nov 9 2012, 04:08 AM:name=StaticVoiD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StaticVoiD @ Nov 9 2012, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7k people at peaktime IS pathetic. There is very few room for discussion. Right now there are 3,193,252 Players Online on Steam. It doesn't matter if other good games are released, because this game has atm no real competition: There is no other shooter-RTS-mix bein released. And there will always be other new games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't really understand numbers, do you? I'm pretty sure Borderlands 2 has sold 1M+ copies on PC (more than 5 million across all platforms) and it peaks at 19,000 players on Steam.
You are killing the industry, If nobody were to stop you we would only have Cod clones, LoL, WoW in 10 years.
How dare any game be a bit diffrent from the boring bland grindfest. How dare these devs actually respect the gamers. Why aren't these devs all about raking in as much $$$$ as humanly possible?
I feel bad for you OP. You will never experience the true gamer feel.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->*SNIP* I need to learn to be nicer -Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
EDIT: NS2 target audience ain't the CoD kiddies. So all these arguments for including pers, unlocks, bf like stat tracking are invalid. Because the target audience doesn't want that.
I'm not saying these things are super bad in general, But they are bad for NS2
Also nobody is gonna buy ns2 if its just another grindfest clone. The people who buy ns2 WANT something different, that's the whole strength of the game. If you were to take it away it would be dead in months
Hell no! No achievements please. Achievements here achievements there achievements for everything. Its ridiculous. Maybe this Forum needs also achievements? "Achievement unlocked! Start your first thread" Yeaaah I am a hero!
Stats and Ranks? Seriously? There are so many things to fix and balanced. The game-design is also terrible @ some points(CommanderGUI! , Alien tier 3 etc. ) This game is "playable" but far away of a"ready". Maybe in one year.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2016811:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:09 PM:name=snaga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snaga @ Nov 9 2012, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't really understand numbers, do you? I'm pretty sure Borderlands 2 has sold 1M+ copies on PC (more than 5 million across all platforms) and it peaks at 19,000 players on Steam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would probably be more fair to compare it to CS:GO. Both are multiplayer games, pretty cheap and exclusively available on Steam. CS has a huge name behind it and also peaks at about 20k concurrent players (after the 50k on the free weekend and yes I do know that CS 1.6 has been at 50k peak for a long time and still not dropping). NS2 is also a way more complex and hardcore game and has numerous technical issues (performance, some bugs) which keep many people from playing. I'd say that's pretty successful.
Of course, if you compare everything to the >500k concurrent of LoL, then all games are suddenly utter ######.
Ok, it's not a cartoon universe or stuff, but it's a game, and game = fun
Seeing the pop on the bottom side of your screen when you do something crazy means nothing, I agree, but if it has a cool and funny title ( yes, as TF2 ones ), and if it gives me a smile, then, I want some.
I cant believe Im agreeing to any extent with the OP but he has a point about playing to peoples... lets call it vanity. Im very proud of my black armor, and things like that dont really change the game play. I would be ok with unlocks that allow a player to customize his character... If i could id run around as a Red marine, i mean hive vision removes any ability to hide in the shadows so why not.
So i am all for "unlocks" as long as A) they dont include my black armor B) they are cosmetic C) they require a significant amount of effort to achieve
Now I also recognize that the game is 1.0 for 1 week and well I we all know they havnt had time to work on little things like this. Id rather see babblers then a blue rine...
<!--quoteo(post=2016174:date=Nov 9 2012, 03:08 AM:name=StaticVoiD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StaticVoiD @ Nov 9 2012, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7k people at peaktime IS pathetic. There is very few room for discussion. Right now there are 3,193,252 Players Online on Steam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Do you understand that not all of those three million people are playing? With 7000 players a game would at he moment be amongst the top 10 games out of thousands. And you all that pathetic?
NS2 is also the 5th most sold game on Steam. It's above Borderlands 2, XCOM, Dishonored, CS:GO, the new Hitman game... Is that Pathetic?
No achievement will beat the satisfaction of a hard fought and worthy team victory in NS2. I don't need childish and purposeless little badges to point out how rewarding that is.
Yes, you lose rounds too but that's what drives you to do improve and question how to improve, not K/D or the number of fades you killed with a shotty.
I personally enjoy looking at NS2Stats.org occasionally but it's not what motivates me to play by any means. The game doesn't NEED it and it's just a nice little extra... just like Marine moustaches.
Comments
I think it ultimately boils down into one issue. The void left after a hard fought game. We've all felt it (I'm 97% sure). Maybe you can deny it, maybe you've learned to live with it like I have for the love of the game. What multiplayer game developers are trying to do with games like COD is fill the post game void. perhaps mindless grind is our first and worst attempt to fill the post game void. Maybe, as a community, we can come up with something. our own way of filling this void.
considering we already have a third party taking care of personal stats, something I would personally love to see clan support, and clan ladders support/ tournament support implemented into the game.
this negates the pointlessness of grind because your working towards something as a clan, which is a much greater sense of achievement than solo grinding.
though for those not in a clan, or don't want to/cant play with there clan because they were kicked out for gross misconduct, can choose to party up with a matchmade team of up to 8 players who always play on the same side (obviously). If you have enjoyed yourself with said players, you have an option to click 'continue playing with these guys'. Other players in your party who have also clicked to continue will..well continue with you. players who don't click, they'll just be replaced by matchmaking. If you all agree your team can become a permanent fixture easily accessible through clan support. Like some sort of mini clan or squad, if you will. A mini clan/squad that you can enter with into tournaments, win tournaments, rise up the ranks, become household names, have billions of cult followers and, of course, woman. Or something to that affect.
I may be wrong of course. Maybe the void I have now mentioned 6 times doesn't even exist and its all in my head. But there is defiantly something making me long for a sense of real competition and accomplishment that i feel i should already been feeling.
So you need a pointless treadmill system of false progression with unlocking shiny medals for ADHD autists that can't play any game for more than 5 minutes without the game jiggling keys in their face and telling them how good they are?
No sorry, wrong floor, this isn't console gaming.
They've refunded in full the pre-launch purchases of everyone who wasn't satisfied, and even allowed them to keep the game. They distributed tens of thousands of free copies in total to every single pre-purchaser to thank them for their help and to spread the fun of their vision. UWE are game-makers, not money-farmers.
If they're mostly just kill X Skulks/Marines/Fades/Onii then not so much.
These can come later in a big update, though.
Stats would be welcome, and will likely help balance.
If you need the game to tell you "Hey, You're just great! Here, have some ###### to make this easier!" then NS2 is <i><b>absolutely</b></i> not the game you are looking for.
This game is about working as a team to meet goals which are clearly defined in outcome but vary greatly in execution. You feel good when you win because its not easy and you did a good job together. How is that not enough? I find NS to be one of the most compelling games I've ever played.
Think about it. You're a new player, your names in green, you have 1 for 20, you are a complete drain on your team, Ok you feel pretty lame. Now imagine the same situation, but you bring up the scoreboard and what do you see? A bunch of no-life rank 27s on the other team. Maaan screw this game its all about playing for hours and hours, IMA PLAY BF3.
But, if all you want is a bigger fan base, go mainstream. I can't see why not. It's always fun to watch people who focus on hierarchy scurry about their lives in blissful ignorance of their pointless existence.
My post has no point. I just felt like writing what came to mind.
Techercizer puts it the best I think.
I hope UWE will not give in to stats grinding.
NS to me is about teamplay, not being the single best player.
For that you can play Quake Arena like games or plenty of other cookie cutter shooters.
All the players supporting the team by killing restowers, healing, weldin, building ###### - that's essential. If everybody would just be striving for the best KD it would ###### up the game.
Sure, this could be circumvented by clever achievments not beeing based on kills, but i still think it's not necessary. The people playing NS2 play NS2 because they love exactly what NS2 is and they already get enough motiviation out of playing NS2.
Think about it. You're a new player, your names in green, you have 1 for 20, you are a complete drain on your team, Ok you feel pretty lame. Now imagine the same situation, but you bring up the scoreboard and what do you see? A bunch of no-life rank 27s on the other team. Maaan screw this game its all about playing for hours and hours, IMA PLAY BF3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point of every piece of gameplay is - from the dev's perspective - to draw more players. If your game is generally good, you are most likely to sell more copies and vice versa.
Money is the essential point behind any commercial software project. More money means more staff, faster updates, better maintenace, more and better servers, etc.,... Unless they spend it on ######s and booze, but UWE wouldn't do such a thing.
A visual unlock system's purpose can only be to draw more players. There is no other point in that, since it doesn't change the gameplay by any means. More players means more money, more money means the stuff mentioned before.
Everyone profits (dev and user) from high user numbers.
<!--quoteo(post=2016611:date=Nov 8 2012, 11:18 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 8 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't need to draw players who don't like the game for what it is. If NS2 isn't up their alley, it's not the game for them. Neither the playerbase nor the developers would benefit from people who have no interest beyond the cycle of addiction modern FPSs use to trick their players into wasting their time and money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2016695:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:11 AM:name=Zaggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zaggy @ Nov 9 2012, 02:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Techercizer puts it the best I think.
I hope UWE will not give in to stats grinding.
NS to me is about teamplay, not being the single best player.
For that you can play Quake Arena like games or plenty of other cookie cutter shooters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This game is no religion. There is no certain spiritual mindset required to join this exclusive club. As written above everyone profits from high user numbers. It doesn't matter why people are playin the game, it only matters that they do.
If you don't get this point you lack the basic understanding of economics.
A leveling, stats and ranking system does not have to focus the solo gameplay performance. If developed correctly it can encourage teamplay, while being only minimal vulnerable to grinding.
A simple black/white view on design decisions isn't helpful. It comes down to how different mechanics are implemented and balanced towards each other.
Im getting there more detailed below.
<!--quoteo(post=2016730:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:58 AM:name=d.n.M.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d.n.M. @ Nov 9 2012, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stats are fine, achivements are only useful if they do not encourage players to use another playing style. Right now there are so many tasks which are very beneficial for the win of the team, but which do not yield any kills.
All the players supporting the team by killing restowers, healing, weldin, building ###### - that's essential. If everybody would just be striving for the best KD it would ###### up the game.
Sure, this could be circumvented by clever achievments not beeing based on kills, but i still think it's not necessary. The people playing NS2 play NS2 because they love exactly what NS2 is and they already get enough motiviation out of playing NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely agree that the reward and achievement system has to be chosen carefully. It would definetely not help if it worked against team play.
But there are solutions and design decisions to make this possible.
Achievements like "Kill 20 Skulks in a row, while camping behind the same door all game long" is nothing anybody wants.
But other stuff like "Heal 1000 HP on a single allied Exo Suit" would help very much, since it encourages essential team- and gameplay mechanics.
Achievements should be used to encourage every form of good play, not force a certain unhelpful playstyle like "kill 10 Skulks with welders".
It is all about design decisions. Achievements are not bad in general, it comes all down to how they are implemented.
A leveling and ranking system would increase some players effort on doing a good job. The more score you earn in a round, the faster you level.
Sure, the score distribution also has to be checked carefully to not encourage grinding over playin good, but that is all managable.
An easy point f.e. would be to reward the winning team with a huge pile of level points, so they are working toward the victory over all other stuff.
Another point would be that you have to be ingame at the end of the round to earn your points, so premature leaving would be punished.
Along with this however an afk-kick function is mandatory, which is also a good thing to have anyway.
By showing your level, resp. rank ingame you can see who are the veterans in your team and who are the noobs. Makin it much easier to decide who is more likely able to com or who is able to attack/defend a certain position.
To Statistics:
I see that tracking a K/D wouldn't benefit the game, since it encourages camping and ###### gameplay. But W/L f.e. would.
Allthough you are not solely responsible for your team's performance, it would in general encourage every single person to play better.
Average score per round, commanding performance, etc., makes some players to want to play better and more.
Every form of system that motivates a better individual gameplay can't be bad.
In fact:
The Stats/Achievement/Unlock/Ranking-System is not for the players who are playin the game right now! Obviously they don't need it. It's for the potential players who are NOT playing the game because they are used to such systems and lack of motivation to play a game without.
You don't like this sort of people? Well, what a pity, but it doesn't matter if you can understand their motives or not.
The biggest things that matters are sales and user numbers. Reasons stated above.
P.S.:
I study computational visualistics at the university in Germany and we got many lessons about how software projects are managed, paid and how to please customers. Besides that im 26 years old and have a lot of gaming experience and I saw tons of games rise and fall. So I'm not completely talking at large here.
Ignoring basic design decisons who became common over time, is in general bad for a dev company.
Stats, Leveling, Achievements and Unlocks is stuff that is bein expected by lots of players nowadays and it requires only few effort to implement and maintain.
Not having it for moral or other reasons is something that should be reconsidered.
You don't really understand numbers, do you? I'm pretty sure Borderlands 2 has sold 1M+ copies on PC (more than 5 million across all platforms) and it peaks at 19,000 players on Steam.
You could probably have something like TF:2 has where it shows the your best kill streak with a particular weapon or lifeform
I also wouldn't mind having something tell you how many commander wins you've gotten on a certain side
There isn't nearly enough content to consider unlocks
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You are killing the industry, If nobody were to stop you we would only have Cod clones, LoL, WoW in 10 years.
How dare any game be a bit diffrent from the boring bland grindfest. How dare these devs actually respect the gamers. Why aren't these devs all about raking in as much $$$$ as humanly possible?
I feel bad for you OP. You will never experience the true gamer feel.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->*SNIP* I need to learn to be nicer -Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
EDIT:
NS2 target audience ain't the CoD kiddies. So all these arguments for including pers, unlocks, bf like stat tracking are invalid. Because the target audience doesn't want that.
I'm not saying these things are super bad in general, But they are bad for NS2
Also nobody is gonna buy ns2 if its just another grindfest clone. The people who buy ns2 WANT something different, that's the whole strength of the game. If you were to take it away it would be dead in months
Stats and Ranks? Seriously? There are so many things to fix and balanced. The game-design is also terrible @ some points(CommanderGUI! , Alien tier 3 etc. ) This game is "playable" but far away of a"ready". Maybe in one year.
It would probably be more fair to compare it to CS:GO. Both are multiplayer games, pretty cheap and exclusively available on Steam. CS has a huge name behind it and also peaks at about 20k concurrent players (after the 50k on the free weekend and yes I do know that CS 1.6 has been at 50k peak for a long time and still not dropping).
NS2 is also a way more complex and hardcore game and has numerous technical issues (performance, some bugs) which keep many people from playing. I'd say that's pretty successful.
Of course, if you compare everything to the >500k concurrent of LoL, then all games are suddenly utter ######.
Ok, it's not a cartoon universe or stuff, but it's a game, and game = fun
Seeing the pop on the bottom side of your screen when you do something crazy means nothing, I agree, but if it has a cool and funny title ( yes, as TF2 ones ), and if it gives me a smile, then, I want some.
So i am all for "unlocks" as long as A) they dont include my black armor B) they are cosmetic C) they require a significant amount of effort to achieve
Now I also recognize that the game is 1.0 for 1 week and well I we all know they havnt had time to work on little things like this. Id rather see babblers then a blue rine...
NS2 is also the 5th most sold game on Steam. It's above Borderlands 2, XCOM, Dishonored, CS:GO, the new Hitman game... Is that Pathetic?
Do I even need to comment?
Yes, you lose rounds too but that's what drives you to do improve and question how to improve, not K/D or the number of fades you killed with a shotty.
I personally enjoy looking at NS2Stats.org occasionally but it's not what motivates me to play by any means. The game doesn't NEED it and it's just a nice little extra... just like Marine moustaches.