Is the Fade really that bad as people say?
Shinigaml
Join Date: 2009-11-09 Member: 69315Members
Join Date: 2009-11-09 Member: 69315Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Seriously..?</div>Okay, so I've been away for a good 2 weeks BEFORE release and I am still away and haven't touched NS2 since. But is it just the influx of new players who have complained about Fade being basically useless or has it really degraded since Builds 223-224?
Maybe I am wrong but if I read all the build logs correctly they did a buff for all alien bites, increasing the cone width but decreasing the damage as the bite gets further and further outside the ideal width. And maybe more stuff idk.
Most of the complainers come from public games and so this is directed towards the pub players. Can someone tell me why they think Fades are useless? Am I really missing something here, some build that totally destroyed the fade as many people on the forums claim?
Please elaborate. Discuss the upgrades you use, why you think it is not effective, etcetc
Maybe I am wrong but if I read all the build logs correctly they did a buff for all alien bites, increasing the cone width but decreasing the damage as the bite gets further and further outside the ideal width. And maybe more stuff idk.
Most of the complainers come from public games and so this is directed towards the pub players. Can someone tell me why they think Fades are useless? Am I really missing something here, some build that totally destroyed the fade as many people on the forums claim?
Please elaborate. Discuss the upgrades you use, why you think it is not effective, etcetc
Comments
Note:This is just what I have seen myself while playing in game and is no way 100% accurate to how the game is, as no doupt people will agree and dissagree with me. So dont take that as fact.
- you are noob bashing where you could do anything you want to win.
I'm not gona argue that the fade is a BIT squishy in terms of hp and armor. It'd be nice to buff the hit points. But that would be my only MAJOR complaint about the Fades. Their low hitpoints in ns2 when compared to the hitpoints fades had in ns1 is a joke yes I agree. And fades back then had metabolise and acid rocket which were actually useful. Unlike vortex which is quite worthless imo.
And as far as upgrades go I tend to always use adrenaline, carapace and silence if they are available.
blink in, 1 or 2 slashes, blink out. repeat until on low health, then go heal.
using this method fades can take out even large squads of marines.
blink in, 1 or 2 slashes, blink out. repeat until on low health, then go heal.
using this method fades can take out even large squads of marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I use.. Many prefer adren over cele but that is highly subjective and I believe adren is just a waste for fades, especiall with their low hit points.
<!--quoteo(post=2016485:date=Nov 9 2012, 04:59 AM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Nov 9 2012, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would be more convinced if your scoreboards on marine side weren't full of such low numbers. It honestly seems like you were fighting against no skilled players. First day i logged in on release I felt like a god with how many kills i got on the noobs, doesn't mean I am godlike lol.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some of the players on the opposing team did consist of players who played competitively in clans. But I don't wanna argue and show you their names because that's not the purpose of this thread. And this is WAY before release. I have not played release yet. Before release, the average player was actually decent, even in pubs.
As it stands, fade is easier for me to play then it was back in the beta because of the influx of new players. Before, I've seen some very good fade play. Now I see plenty of fades just run straight into a group of marines and die.
I can't remember what build it was (221?), but fade physics used to suck. You may remember the joke that was made of the change to "encourage use of shadowstep." Glad that was fixed.
Honestly, I think fade is okay. It's just my opinion though. A lot of other people seem to disagree.
Fades are all around worse than they were in NS1 keep in mind they were worth the same (50 resources). In NS1 Fades had 300-150(250 w/ carapace) had metabolize (ability that let them regenerate their health and stamina when used) and Acid Rocket (which you could shoot acid bombs which did AoE damage). More importantly there was another evolution called Focus which was a must for Fades, it basically let them 2 shot marines but they attacked slower so Fades had to learn to become accurate.
In NS2 Fades are 250-50(100 w/ carapace), don't spawn with Blink and only have a useless Vortex ability which is rarely used in any game.
Seriously I don't know what UWE was thinking with the Fade, basically in NS2 there are 2 combat classes (Skulk and Onos) as most players would rather save an extra 25 res for an endgame lifeform in which anyone can play and gather up many marine kills. Fades use to play an important role in NS1 since they were important for gaining map control and harassing the Marine team but now they just feel like an afterthought. While Fades were harder to master they were rewarding.
Some of the players on the opposing team did consist of players who played competitively in clans. But I don't wanna argue and show you their names because that's not the purpose of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like to shadowstep a lot while fighting marines which quite often leads to me being very low on energy by the time I have to pull out because of low HP, so I usually pick adrenaline.
Also, there have been two CRUCIAL changes to fade since 223-224.
First: Shadowstep isn't vertical anymore. It's 2D.
Second: There's a slight delay after blinking before you can hit.
If those two very simple things are reversed to the way they used to be, fade will become a lot more viable again.
Right now, I wouldn't go in the middle of even two marines with ARs without teamwork (spores or a skulk or two). Otherwise, you're asking to be dead. It's become a lot tougher to play fade because of the FPS improvements.
If you know how to play, you can easily go into a room with 3 marines and at least kill one before having to retreat and heal again. The only possiblity to having this happen is to be in a large room where you can move vertically. But see that's the problem. Most fades only move horizontally and forget theres a ceiling to take advantage of. The rest of my team does not nearly have the same amount of kills as I do, which should show that I am doing most of the map control, taking them out of where they want to be and being a threat. If I had video clips of entire matches I would show you but the thing I love to do is abuse a big room, whether there's only 1 marine or 5.
<!--quoteo(post=2016510:date=Nov 9 2012, 05:12 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 9 2012, 05:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what changed since 223? Performance :-P . People can actually aim much better and faster now as marines, so unfortunately aliens generally suffer. I'm actually surprised aliens are winning so many games though, wins seem about equal.
Also, there have been two CRUCIAL changes to fade since 223-224.
First: Shadowstep isn't vertical anymore. It's 2D.
Second: There's a slight delay after blinking before you can hit.
If those two very simple things are reversed to the way they used to be, fade will become a lot more viable again.
Right now, I wouldn't go in the middle of even two marines with ARs without teamwork (spores or a skulk or two). Otherwise, you're asking to be dead. It's become a lot tougher to play fade because of the FPS improvements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played when it got changed to 2d, and that sucks definetly.
The second change you mentioned also sucks, but if you play the way I do using vertical movements, I can swipe and blink interchangably with no distractions. However in a small tight corrider, that definely is a huge blow to fades.
Also, the answer to the fade lifeform costs a staggering 30 resources less than a fade while being most powerful at close range. (I.E. where the fade lives.) It doesn't help that Vortex is stupid either. It's just a temporary devour ability. Fade is strong at hit and run damage, but it's top tier ability is situational and gimmicky and doesn't turn the tide of battle anywhere near as much as Umbra, Stomp, or even Bile Bomb (which is a 2nd tier ability, no less.)
It doesn't help that NS mechanically has no 'last weapon used' key, meaning that it's harder to weapon switch to vortex while juggling blink and dash maneuvers unless you're a whiz kid. This is a carry over from skulks, who are also somewhat gimmicky and hard to master. Skulks and fades are somewhat related in the sense that neither one of them have something useful as their top tier ability and both are meant to take out stragglers or harass the enemy. The difference is that at least skulks are free whereas Fades are nowhere near a rational 50 P.Res investment when just 25 more nets you an Onos.
If Onos ends up a third hive life form, people will be forced to go Fade. This means that Onos will come out <i>very</i> late stage, and frankly I'd rather have people <i>want</i> to play a fade rather than be <i>forced</i> to upgrade to Fade.
Fade just feels like something that should cost more like 40 P.Res to me. If they dropped W3 armor marines in maybe one less hit they would be worth 50, but as it is I feel like I'm just picking off guys that skulks softened up.
As a last point, those are great K/D/R ratio's but that's really the only thing fade can do. And the window they can do it in slams shut late in the game. This is an issue because as a fade, you actually might live to see end game with the same life form. Sadly, you can't do anything useful once you get there.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Snip--Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
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It's called an "exosuit" and it seems to be used pretty often.
Exos suck.
Anyway, if we could buy HA and an HMG for 50 pres (Stronger weapon more durability, like the Fade, although the HA makes you a bit slower), I would totally do it as soon as humanly possible.
an exo is more than "a touch better" compared to an smg
Also, there have been two CRUCIAL changes to fade since 223-224.
First: Shadowstep isn't vertical anymore. It's 2D.
Second: There's a slight delay after blinking before you can hit.
If those two very simple things are reversed to the way they used to be, fade will become a lot more viable again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot
1) adren changes
2) cone of damage
3) full dmg while blinking.
Can't blink and slash like crazy anymore.
Before, you could just focus on a marine knowing no matter what, ull have enough adren to make an exit. Also you could do full damage by doing a glancing hit and maintaining that forward momentum (keep on moving to avoid proper tracking)
Now, have to be more surgical. When you hit a marine full frontal, you have to stop and lose forward momentum and shadowstep sideways (or blink up which sometimes isn't an option). Most players know this now and will guesstimate your direction. If they guess correctly (50/50 chance left or right) they will do massive damage causing retreat or death.
Also, its frustrating after every engagement to wait for the adren regen. If your comm didn't build shifts anywhere ur SOL waiting nearly 20+ seconds for it to come back while marines take 5 seconds to fully recover at an armory.
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It used to be nearly impossible to ward off/solo a fade. Now its the standard
this is a poor argument because if there's a large enough discrepancy in the level of skill required to perform at a reasonable level... for the primary mid-game offensive unit, then it's a problem.
also it's a poor argument because it's not really true. the actual skill-cap of Fade isn't massively high enough to offset weapons 3 shotguns doing a lot of damage, I don't really foresee anyone wielding it in new or exciting ways, it's mostly just flipping a coin every time you blink in.
blink in, 1 or 2 slashes, blink out. repeat until on low health, then go heal.
using this method fades can take out even large squads of marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but if the marines aren't terrible, that means you'll be blinking in once, maaaaybe twice before you are low on health since they will hit you on the way in and the way out. So you get to deal between 27-162 damage depending on if you hit once or twice and how charitable the netcode is feeling. I mean, it's great that you did this damage and all, but now you're spending 20-30 seconds blinking back to the hive, healing, and running out into combat again. This is a pretty abysmal ratio of damage done:time. It's especially bad when marines have an armoury nearby, so they will heal fully between your attack runs, and the only kills you will ever get are on already-weak marines. This also means that fade is just bad for attacking bases, since it does such terrible damage to structures and the players you hit will just heal.
I see a lot of people saying fade is great for 1v1s, etc etc. Yes. It's pretty nice for 1v1s, you might even kill a shotgunner that way (but probably not if he has a jetpack). But really, when do marines attack in ones? And aren't skulks supposed to win most of their 1v1s anyway? A 50pres lifeform for something whose role is to take out people who are already skulkbait seems bad.
What i'd like to see is full speed crouch blinking back and better geometry collision (so you don't get stuck in silly crap or hit your head on basically every doorway), with faster blink. Find it amusing that the best way to use blink 'bhop' is not to press any button except for blink and w - jumping is subpar.
So really, the main skill to improve in ns2 fading is 'abusing' shadowstep implementation. So basically, you need to stop playing it exactly like an ns1 fade. I still think ns1 fade implementation might be better, but you can't justify hp buffs with the way ns2 fade is implemented just to clarify.