Marines: Third Tech Point
Bad Mojo
Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67317Members
Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67317Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why do they not need it?</div>I didn't play through a lot of beta (due to performance issues like many others) and didn't pick up again until b222.
The question is in the title; Why do marines have nothing that requires three command stations? All of the maps, with the exception of Veil, being a remake of NS1, which obviously didn't have the tech point element, have 5 tech points. Since aliens unlock their final evolutions at 3 hives, why wouldn't it be the same for marines? It would seem logical that the 5th tech point would be contested during the mid game and by late game one team will have taken it, giving them an edge, but still giving the losing team plenty of room for a comeback.
The question is in the title; Why do marines have nothing that requires three command stations? All of the maps, with the exception of Veil, being a remake of NS1, which obviously didn't have the tech point element, have 5 tech points. Since aliens unlock their final evolutions at 3 hives, why wouldn't it be the same for marines? It would seem logical that the 5th tech point would be contested during the mid game and by late game one team will have taken it, giving them an edge, but still giving the losing team plenty of room for a comeback.
Comments
Given that the most tech points on any map is 5, having it so Marines "cap out" at 2 makes the stalemate a bit more interesting once good teams have been established. Having to wait for dual cannon exos because you need three tech points...I mean, does anything on marines feel like it's worth three tech points to you, really?
It can also be very hard for marines to hold 3 locations at once with all the phase gate whack-a-mole. Usually you want to have two phase gates to defend and one to attack. Three defensive phase gates are not feasible to hold against a good alien team.
Given that the most tech points on any map is 5, having it so Marines "cap out" at 2 makes the stalemate a bit more interesting once good teams have been established. Having to wait for dual cannon exos because you need three tech points...I mean, does anything on marines feel like it's worth three tech points to you, really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, Weapons and Armor 3 along with Dual-Exo suits. Jetpacks and Single-Gun Exo's on two CC. Onos on third hive. Voila! More balanced and more incentive to fight over the map vs. jerking around while saving P.Res and seeing who pushes first.
For being a game that involves genocide as the end-goal, the war between the Frontiersmen and the Aliens seems to be a Cold War for some reason.
Right now, the real fight happens at two hives most of the time and a third one is just icing that gives you the last push for decisive victory. There's usually just one fade, and a lot of games you never even see a fade fielded. This is specifically because the third hive doesn't really matter for any unit except Lerk and Onos, and doesn't matter <i>at all</i> for the marines, except in the sense that they need to deny the aliens that area.
If the game was decided by the third tech point right now I think marines would totally dominate the game unless all maps undergo severe layout changes. Just get a phase gate on the third tech point location which would be favored by aliens and win the game by having relatively cheap command stations and nice short walking distance between them.
If the game was decided by the third tech point right now I think marines would totally dominate the game unless all maps undergo severe layout changes. Just get a phase gate on the third tech point location which would be favored by aliens and win the game by having relatively cheap command stations and nice short walking distance between them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game already is decided by the third tech point, it's just that it's only relevant to one of the teams to actually own it. Stomp and Umbra are needed to successfully break a marine turtle unless the marines are close to clueless, whereas the Marines just need to pass through the area every so often to make sure it isn't infested.
Saying phase gates would make it hard to hold three points makes no sense, as aliens are required to do it without any phase gate travel at all. Yeah they're faster, but a knife-out Frontiersman runner is straight out of the Olympics at the moment.
What it would do is even the playing field for end-game units, which is a current issue that requires attention.
I could be wrong though. I swear when I had 3 CCs, I could build 15 MACS.
This is why the current dynamic is quite interesting. Marines can hold tech points relatively easily, but they only need two, but they need to prevent the aliens from getting three. They need the third tech point because they need aliens not to get it. This way, the control of the third tech point plays to the marine's strengths, but for a weak reason, if you know what I mean.
A somewhat official statement from Hugh was that the asymmetry lies in res nodes and tech points. Marines need relatively few tech points, but many res nodes. Aliens are relatively reliant on numerous tech points, but can survive on few res nodes.
Wait, what?
As far as I know, marines max out their tech at 2 Command Stations. This change would move their top tier tech to a requirement of 3 tech points...how would that make marines dominate the game? That would make it harder for marines, at least roughly AS hard as it is for aliens to reach their top tier. Saying the game will be "decided by the third tech point" is not a change, it's just how I was imagining game ideally playing out if marines were to require a third tech point to unlock everything as only aliens currently do.
none of that is actually true.
and i'm also starting to think you are trolling.
The answer to those two questions are different, since it's far easier for the aliens to expand but the Marines have the better transportation to places they've already been. I usually have the resource node advantage on the marines, to be utterly honest with you. I also don't drop early Onos, so I end up with a lot more res for rapid expansion past the second hive. Just saying...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why the current dynamic is quite interesting. Marines can hold tech points relatively easily, but they only need two, but they need to prevent the aliens from getting three. They need the third tech point because they need aliens not to get it. This way, the control of the third tech point plays to the marine's strengths, but for a weak reason, if you know what I mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, to a point. The marines are strong at holding <i>a limited number</i> of tech points (I.E. Two). Each additional tech point waters down their effective ability to defend each one. (Phase delays, how many marines are near the gate or foot-expanding, defending nodes, etc.) At three points, Marines are going to feel <i>very</i> harassed, and actually allows the aliens to play to their advantage more as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A somewhat official statement from Hugh was that the asymmetry lies in res nodes and tech points. Marines need relatively few tech points, but many res nodes. Aliens are relatively reliant on numerous tech points, but can survive on few res nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is almost directly responsible for the broken 6 minute Onos, ergo it is bound to go the way of the dinosaur eventually. The inevitable Onos limit to hives simply needs to be balanced against on the Marines as well. (If it happens. Otherwise, 6 minute Onos remains a powerful strategy and no balance occurs. Fine.)
I would be so stoked if it made marines stronger. Then the Fade and maybe Skulk could get the buffs they need to make playing them as fun as they should be.
If you typically have the res node advantage over marines, you typically play against bad marines. Its pretty much unanimously accepted that marines should have around double the res nodes aliens do at any time. Marines can also build anywhere on the map at anytime, with no expansion cost, which is obviously an advantage when it comes to expanding.
As for marines becoming "watered down" when they take more than 2 points, this is obviously true, but its also obviously true for aliens. However, the degree to which a team is "spread too thin" over their territory is proportional to their speed of transport across said territory, which obviously puts marines at a great advantage.
Marines hold and expand better than aliens, which is why the norm is 3 tech points to the marines, and 2 to the aliens.
Off the top of my head, maybe tie jetpacks and tier 1 (single minigun) exosuits and also tier 2 weapon and armor upgrades to the 2nd command hut, and tie dual gun mechs and tier 3 weapons/ammo to the third. Might need to rebalance these things but it would make for a more interesting gameflow and strategic choices, with more important tactics and strategy in the midgame.
It wouldn't be as simple as simply changing that. The resource system would need a complete overhaul, and so would the cost of every tech item. If the change was implemented exactly how you describe it, marines would win every game in which they immediately expanded to 3 of the 5 tech points, and lose every game in which they didn't.
What the current system allows is for consistent combat to take place. For example, if the marines are on the back foot, the aliens are constantly assaulting their outposts. If aliens are on the back foot, marines are constantly assaulting their hives. The situation you describe would be awesome if the two teams were constantly fighting over the third tech point, but in practice that will never happen. You can't fight over a location which nobody holds in NS2 in a sustained way, it just doesn't happen. There will be a fight, no doubt, but it will be resolved in a matter of seconds, and then the victor will begin to overpower the loser, to the point where the loser cannot fight back. The current system allows both teams to face off in a manner which allows one team to have a territory advantage, while the balance of the game remains in equilibrium, allowing for sustained combat.
As for marines becoming "watered down" when they take more than 2 points, this is obviously true, but its also obviously true for aliens. However, the degree to which a team is "spread too thin" over their territory is proportional to their speed of transport across said territory, which obviously puts marines at a great advantage.
Marines hold and expand better than aliens, which is why the norm is 3 tech points to the marines, and 2 to the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, whoever has the better team at the start ends up holding the res nodes for the time that really makes a big difference. In almost any map I can think of there are almost always four res towers within easy reach of a hive. The reason aliens don't bother expanding past three towers in the early game is because they are doing an early Onos strategy. That is the only reason. For any other chance at victory outside of the early Onos three towers will, quite definitely, lose you the game and lose it <i>hard</i>. The marines might <i>end up</i> controlling more nodes, but that's because you lost the game. Not because they have any kind of advantage what-so-ever in actually getting to the locations faster at the start. On top of that, if a commander builds a phase at every node that should be GG for the Marines.
Secondly, if you are going to be comparing the best players with the worst you're right. However, if teams are both the best, exactly what speed disadvantage do skilled walljumping skulks have again? Yeah, it's not <i>instant</i> travel, but it's stupid close to it with celerity.
Thirdly, yeah the marines can build anywhere on the map at any time. As long as he has soldiers there. If they're dead, oh well. Nothing gets built. If there are zero skulks in an area, things still get done. All that is required is an <i>absence</i> of marines in an area and you win it without any players outside of the Commander. If the marines want to take it, they broadcast the fact that they're there, and exactly where they are, to any Alien everywhere on the map. MAC's don't even compare, although it does give the Marine commander <i>some</i> flexibility.
Lastly, public server gaming is a lot different than competitive. This is a game where a public server of 24 people <i>should not</i> use the same exact strategy as a server that has teams set to six max, five effective. The way weapon and armor upgrades function should be a strong indicator of that fact. It's also why an early Onos is successful in competitive play but less successful in public play (among other, more obvious reasons). The damage from that many rifles will simply overpower an Onos trying to do anything other than ninja nodes or hit-and-run harassment at the Marines base.)
The only real debate is how game breaking it is, rather than if it's broken or not. Ultimately, the node control ideas are more about limiting late game life forms and tech to the late game. Otherwise people are going to continue crying about the early Onos, and for good reason.
Then have the fifth point in the map open up, allowing a mad dash for the teams to try and claim the point and hold it till they can research or create whatever the 'end' unit is. This should prevent games from rushing the last types of units until a bit of the game has passed. Hopefully this would lengthen the mid game, and give more of a even fight towards the end, trying to deny each other the final point, and hold it long enough to pump out some units or exos or something.
Then have the fifth point in the map open up, allowing a mad dash for the teams to try and claim the point and hold it till they can research or create whatever the 'end' unit is. This should prevent games from rushing the last types of units until a bit of the game has passed. Hopefully this would lengthen the mid game, and give more of a even fight towards the end, trying to deny each other the final point, and hold it long enough to pump out some units or exos or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is practically nothing that you could put in a third CC to make it that worthwhile for Marines to want it. Exos are cool and all, but they aren't very effective. Weapons/armor 2 isn't as good as weapons/armor 3, but it's not terrible either.
Unless you did something like Armory (1CC) --> Advanced Armory (2CC) --> Proto Lab (3CC) but that just sounds annoying and anti-fun.
Unless you did something like Armory (1CC) --> Advanced Armory (2CC) --> Proto Lab (3CC) but that just sounds annoying and anti-fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, I actually agree to some extent. In order for it to really work and be viable for both sides, I think more would need to be added to the game in general, and may even need to have balance retooled to be effective.
as marine, i will try to lock also 3rd cc, so aliens cannot expand lategame and I have a distinct edge on rt (at least 3 + 2 in the middle, plus probably at least 1 near one of the side CC.
In some maps, for example, I try to get the CC where the aliens will probably put their second, so they are closed in only 1 hive OR they have to take a split hive.
I don't understand why as marine you shouldn't try and get this 3rd, both for attrition and for security (you lose one base? you have 2 and can still build EXO)
Aliens dont have it. stomp and umbra have killed me to many times before
number 2 reason to have a 3rd techpoint.
you might lose the other ones. ;)