The interesting part about the onos drop is that it's supposed to be an all-in tactic. In any RTS game, an all-in is basically a do or die scenario. If you don't cause severe economic damage to the enemy, you are put at a severe disadvantage that more often than not will cause you the game. An early onos isn't even an all-in tactic, it's the safest opening that gives the aliens dominant map control if accompanied by a gorge and a skulk...hell it can wander by itself with or without carapace and destroy RTs with little to no problem.
The main issue is that there's absolutely no reason for an alien comm not to open with onos drop. You sacrifice nothing (maybe some map control and the risk of losing the 2nd hive) and gain everything so long as the Onos stays alive; which it should considering it should still be somewhat early game. Once the Onos is out on the field, the burden then falls to the Marines to kill it less the aliens continue to snowball their lead. There's no burden on the Alien side to make something happen with the Onos. Just getting it out on the field and maintaining map presence is enough to cripple a Marine team.
This may just be theorycrafting, but this Alien opening is rather overwhelming and requires a concerted effort on the Marine contingent to counter. The best part is that you can't even scout the Onos drop as it just looks like a normal alien opening thanks to the dependence on a second hive to be viable. There's no cutting workers or seeing a six-pool to give it away.
Well teamwork counters teamwork I suppose, but Marines are ill equipped at that stage of the game to counter the Onos effectively.
<!--quoteo(post=2017641:date=Nov 9 2012, 11:33 PM:name=BearTornado)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BearTornado @ Nov 9 2012, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balanced != fun, or even good.
This game is half RTS, and if the available strategies for winning are reduced to a relatively linear goal that always ends the same its going to hurt. And that's mostly talking about the Aliens. I WANT to like aliens, I like play on their team even knowing how the strategies usually turn out, but I still find myself still having more fun as marines, even when it comes to losing as marines. We can hole up with grenade launchers or whatever and just goof off until the Aliens finally knock us out. Meanwhile if the Aliens can't sustain multiple Onos by the time Marines have W3, A3 and exos then its immediately game over. The "Upgrade" to the skulk is 50 pres (fade), and while it can certainly be used effectively its a lot more devastating to your pres when you die than it is when a marine with a shotty dies, and even then the marine has the ability to recover that shotgun, or let another marine pick up his res investment.
Perhaps the individual Aliens need to be tougher, but I'm far far far less likely to invest in the lerk or fade because of how easy it is to die to competent marines who have been upgraded. With shotguns/jetpacks on Marines I feel comfortable with that investment. Combined with W3 and A3 I expect to live long enough to earn back my investment if not some extra. But given how minimal the effect of the Alien evolutions feel, I'd rather just stick to skulk and save my pres for an Onos, the only class that can actually earn its investment back without getting dusted by a marine team that is turtling its way to your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wtf are you saying balance != fun? on some level, at least COMPETITVE / HIGH SKILL, the sides simply must be balanced - otherwise noone will bother.
for me and my experiences in pub servers, aliens are fun - unless there are a bunch of sandbagger team stackers who go marine and therefore shepard the 'casuals' onto the alien side. this is the biggest contributor to one-sided and boring games, and is frustrating. i simply leave the server and find a new one when this happens.
<!--quoteo(post=2017740:date=Nov 9 2012, 07:59 PM:name=Hessian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hessian @ Nov 9 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I was playing against you earlier, you were the only marine on the other team who was anywhere near consistent with their aim, and you were absolutely terrifying because of it. I was telling all the aliens to target you first every single time, because if we didn't the attack would fail.
I disagree that marine's upgrades are more expensive. If you want a fully upgraded alien, you require three hives, one of each type of hive, at least one of each tech building and then the upgrades themselves. (80+45+30+45=200) Compared to marines which is the arms lab which only requires an armory, and then the upgrades themselves.(10+20+30+50+70=180) Pretty sure I have the math right... The real problem is that I have never successfully managed to snipe an arms lab because of phase gates/observatories and that they are much easier to obtain as well as back up with spare arms lab. The only time you can ever take down the upgrades are when they have already lost because you just broke the main base. Not even to mention how varied the usefulness of certain upgrades actually are.
One of my biggest gripes though is how cheap jetpacks are. 10 res for what is basically one of the most powerful item in the game. Shotguns are completely ridiculous right now as well. Once they are out, if you don't have carapace up it is GG. You will never successfully take down another enemy structure unless they completely ignore you, or you have a onos which can actually take a hit or two before running in terror.
There are a lot of little things too. Like recycle, which can mitigate how much damage a successful raid can actually do. The far superior support options the marine commander gets for his troops. Things like MACs and ARCs which give a lot more diversity to the marine commander experience. Marines really do feel far more fleshed out in my opinion. That said, exo suits are pretty mediocre at the moment, flamethrowers are pretty useless, and early onos drop might be too effective against what the marines can have fielded at that point. I really do think that the "balance" between the two sides is very far off, and the more I run into better players playing on both teams, the more I keep seeing it.
It is hard to say exactly what I think needs to be changed, because the two sides ARE supposed to play differently and all I can refer too is what aliens lack but marines have while trying to keep any examples inside the game itself. Skulks need to be able to get a bit beefier especially once mid/late game comes around. Shotguns need to be toned down a tad. Jetpacks need to be more expensive. Exo need a tad more health, but should probably get slightly less accurate weapons. Poison spores need to shoot like umbra. I have no clue what to do to fade to actually make them worth using, but in my opinion they simply are not a viable choice at the moment. Alien commander needs more active abilities for combat/countering stuff, like the ability hide a unit from scans or something, maybe a healing cloud. Infestation needs to serve a purpose beyond just supporting structures, like a speed boost to units, better healing, something. Gorges should be able to consume dead buildings or something like that in order to reclaim some of the tres, as well as get some more buildables or a new ability since playing them feels pretty lackluster right now. I'm sure there are better answers then anything that I have posted, or more likely I am simply wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually agree with you about the jetpacks, I've always thought they were a bit too cheap for how much more survivability you get from them. Their price could be increased for sure.
The alien commander does indeed lack utility compared to the marine commander. Although bone wall can be very useful for the aliens I feel like it's still only one thing when compared to the marine commander's abilities. Infestation could also serve a bigger purpose in NS2 also.
<!--quoteo(post=2017753:date=Nov 9 2012, 06:21 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 9 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wtf are you saying balance != fun? on some level, at least COMPETITVE / HIGH SKILL, the sides simply must be balanced - otherwise noone will bother.
for me and my experiences in pub servers, aliens are fun - unless there are a bunch of sandbagger team stackers who go marine and therefore shepard the 'casuals' onto the alien side. this is the biggest contributor to one-sided and boring games, and is frustrating. i simply leave the server and find a new one when this happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me it read normal, but != means Does Not Equal.
No one is arguing that the sides aren't necessarily balanced since when you look at statistics the win/loss for each team is almost 50/50 right now.
But as a marine I don't HAVE to jump into a big bulky exo to win the game, in fact marines don't need exos at all to win. I played a game where we all rushed with jetpacks and gls/shotguns to win, which is far more mobile than exos are anyway. In the last game I played as Aliens the marine sent an ARC to the room next to one of our Alien hives and kept scanning the hive while the ARC wrecked it. They had already fortified the position so we couldn't get at the ARC easily. And you can end games with ARCs too if you just protect them and never step into the hive.
What about Aliens? Against a base full of W3 A3 marines with GLs and shotguns, which Alien class is actually going to last long enough to take out the base? Nevermind destroying individual structures like marines can do to Alien upgrades, you have to hit that power node to actually stop them. Even a few onos run the risk of dying if they go after anything but the power upon entering the room. Fades are flexible but crumple like paper under concentrated fire, they aren't tanks anymore. And the Skulk is a joke by endgame outside of 1v1 encounters (assuming the skulk has more skill than the marine) or clumping together.
The point is Aliens really lack any sort of way to end the game, much less even push marines back besides the Onos once we get to mid/end game tactics. A competent Marine team will always win a game against Aliens that don't attempt to get an Onos on the field as soon as possible, especially if the Marines are turtling. As someone else already posted, Marines just feel more fleshed out.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Imo one of the most important things for an asymmetrical game like this which accounts for a multitude of factors combined together that have little if any homogenous resemblance - is timings.
If youve balanced marines vs skulks and gorges at the one minute mark, what happens when you introduce a fade into that timeframe? imbalance. Timings are crucial.. because youve balanced a game around them for so long.. of course a player would attempt to have an advantageous timing (tres onos) ?? Its the best option because the game isnt balanced for it...
<!--quoteo(post=2017858:date=Nov 10 2012, 02:58 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 10 2012, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imo one of the most important things for an asymmetrical game like this which accounts for a multitude of factors combined together that have little if any homogenous resemblance - is timings.
If youve balanced marines vs skulks and gorges at the one minute mark, what happens when you introduce a fade into that timeframe? imbalance. Timings are crucial.. because youve balanced a game around them for so long.. of course a player would attempt to have an advantageous timing (tres onos) ?? Its the best option because the game isnt balanced for it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps Tres eggs should only be droppable after a player has had enough cumulative res to onos. So if you have a player on your team who has had a cumulative amount of res = to 75 (not just having 75) you can drop an onos egg. This would discourage players spending 0 res so that the team could go early onos. But would still limit onos timing depending on the team p res flow instead of allowing comm to severely increase speed of onos drop.
I don't see it as that much of a problem. It's like a 6 pool in SC2, you can win with cheese and if you do it's the other teams fault for not scouting it out. The game just came out and lots of marines are using a turtle play, very few are scouting and using aggressive phase gates. To get the fast onos you need to sacrifice spending time and resources on other things, and it's the marines job to exploit the fact that you have not upgraded/expanded.
I play both commanders but mainly marine. I think alien commander is much easier to play, and once marine commanders get up to speed less cheese will go unchecked.
<!--quoteo(post=2017635:date=Nov 9 2012, 03:26 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 9 2012, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it is a true 6 minute rushed Onos (no carapace, or celerity) and marines are able to muster level 2 weapons (which can basically be done with starting resources) then it should take about 4 to 6 LMG clips to put down the Onos. Considering you shouldn't really miss a single shot against an Onos, this is a very easy task. The problem is, when the marine commander decides he wants shotguns, and phase gates, and forward armories, and armour upgrades, all of which are very effective against skulks and the like, but which count for almost nothing against Onos, then you may find you don't have the raw damage on the LMG to compete with the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did this math in the other topic that whined about oni. Onos without carapace takes a total of 2500 damage (due to the armor absorbing 2 points per lmg bullet), each full lmg mag is a total of 500 damage at w0. So the final tally is 5 lmg mags to kill an uncarapaced onos. With carapace just add 800 more damage bringing it to 3300 damage, and now 6 1/2 lmg mags. Also you have pistols which are 25 per bullet so 250 per mag, so if 4 marines unloaded their lmgs for 2000 then hit every shot with the pistol that's a solid 3000 in no more than 5-6 seconds. After a pistol reload the other 300 should melt off quickly even with carapace. And that's all on no upgrades. Doesn't really sound like a problem when you have 8 marines but in a comp match when it's 6v6 I can see why they'd complain.
When you go with shotguns it's 170 if you get the full damage which you should, so from 8 rounds you can do 1220, the downside is it takes about .9 seconds between shots so that around 5.6 seconds if you hold the button down. But combine that with the pistol and one marine can do about 1470 in 6 to 7 seconds. So 2 shotguns and an lmg is more than enough to deal with a single onos pretty quickly.
The fastest I've actually seen an onos egg was a pro team did it on veil in about 4:30 by taking nano and not getting anything else. They still lost though, and considering they're considered the best team at this point I would say it's not an unbeatable strat by any means.
<!--quoteo(post=2017590:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:50 PM:name=Fat_Man_Little_Coat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fat_Man_Little_Coat @ Nov 9 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem when people make this rage page is that the automatically go the op route. I heard this with Exos just a week ago. The reason this strat is so popular are marines aren't targetting alien nodes early and just focus on expanding. The commanders are wasting res on sentries instead of upgrades. A weapon two upgrade will take down an onos fast. Also, coms beacon way too early on tbe sight of an onos. Get the onos deep in base by placing the obv in the far corner and the have team target the onos down. Thats basically killing two hives in one swoop if you do taht crippling the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like what this guy says, I'd say we should wait awhile and see if new tactics evolve to counter the early Onos.
This kind of stuff happened a lot in the early days of SC2, from what I remember. Certain builds were dominating, and then were being answered a short time later with a countering meta-build. (And then some patches deliberately nuked those certain builds anyways, so I digress.)
I'd think it'd be cool if some commander somewhere figures out a creative answer to early Onos. It'd be far interesting than a simple patch/nerf right off the bat. We should leave patches/nerfs as a last resort, not within the first few days of a certain tactic evolving...
<!--quoteo(post=2017877:date=Nov 9 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 9 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did this math in the other topic that whined about oni. Onos without carapace takes a total of 2500 damage (due to the armor absorbing 2 points per lmg bullet), each full lmg mag is a total of 500 damage at w0. So the final tally is 5 lmg mags to kill an uncarapaced onos. With carapace just add 800 more damage bringing it to 3300 damage, and now 6 1/2 lmg mags. Also you have pistols which are 25 per bullet so 250 per mag, so if 4 marines unloaded their lmgs for 2000 then hit every shot with the pistol that's a solid 3000 in no more than 5-6 seconds. After a pistol reload the other 300 should melt off quickly even with carapace. And that's all on no upgrades. Doesn't really sound like a problem when you have 8 marines but in a comp match when it's 6v6 I can see why they'd complain.
When you go with shotguns it's 170 if you get the full damage which you should, so from 8 rounds you can do 1220, the downside is it takes about .9 seconds between shots so that around 5.6 seconds if you hold the button down. But combine that with the pistol and one marine can do about 1470 in 6 to 7 seconds. So 2 shotguns and an lmg is more than enough to deal with a single onos pretty quickly.
The fastest I've actually seen an onos egg was a pro team did it on veil in about 4:30 by taking nano and not getting anything else. They still lost though, and considering they're considered the best team at this point I would say it's not an unbeatable strat by any means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't believe you're still spouting this nonsense about a single arc vs exertus game when both arc and exertus players have explicitly stated that they think the tres onos is broken.
Please go watch some more recent competitive games. You can view most of the release tournaments (EU and NA) on blind's stream or the naturalselection2 twitch. There are about 30 games where 2 hive onos crushes its way to victory compared to the 2 or 3 games it doesn't.
Comments
The main issue is that there's absolutely no reason for an alien comm not to open with onos drop. You sacrifice nothing (maybe some map control and the risk of losing the 2nd hive) and gain everything so long as the Onos stays alive; which it should considering it should still be somewhat early game. Once the Onos is out on the field, the burden then falls to the Marines to kill it less the aliens continue to snowball their lead. There's no burden on the Alien side to make something happen with the Onos. Just getting it out on the field and maintaining map presence is enough to cripple a Marine team.
This may just be theorycrafting, but this Alien opening is rather overwhelming and requires a concerted effort on the Marine contingent to counter. The best part is that you can't even scout the Onos drop as it just looks like a normal alien opening thanks to the dependence on a second hive to be viable. There's no cutting workers or seeing a six-pool to give it away.
Well teamwork counters teamwork I suppose, but Marines are ill equipped at that stage of the game to counter the Onos effectively.
This game is half RTS, and if the available strategies for winning are reduced to a relatively linear goal that always ends the same its going to hurt. And that's mostly talking about the Aliens. I WANT to like aliens, I like play on their team even knowing how the strategies usually turn out, but I still find myself still having more fun as marines, even when it comes to losing as marines. We can hole up with grenade launchers or whatever and just goof off until the Aliens finally knock us out. Meanwhile if the Aliens can't sustain multiple Onos by the time Marines have W3, A3 and exos then its immediately game over. The "Upgrade" to the skulk is 50 pres (fade), and while it can certainly be used effectively its a lot more devastating to your pres when you die than it is when a marine with a shotty dies, and even then the marine has the ability to recover that shotgun, or let another marine pick up his res investment.
Perhaps the individual Aliens need to be tougher, but I'm far far far less likely to invest in the lerk or fade because of how easy it is to die to competent marines who have been upgraded. With shotguns/jetpacks on Marines I feel comfortable with that investment. Combined with W3 and A3 I expect to live long enough to earn back my investment if not some extra. But given how minimal the effect of the Alien evolutions feel, I'd rather just stick to skulk and save my pres for an Onos, the only class that can actually earn its investment back without getting dusted by a marine team that is turtling its way to your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wtf are you saying balance != fun? on some level, at least COMPETITVE / HIGH SKILL, the sides simply must be balanced - otherwise noone will bother.
for me and my experiences in pub servers, aliens are fun - unless there are a bunch of sandbagger team stackers who go marine and therefore shepard the 'casuals' onto the alien side. this is the biggest contributor to one-sided and boring games, and is frustrating. i simply leave the server and find a new one when this happens.
I disagree that marine's upgrades are more expensive. If you want a fully upgraded alien, you require three hives, one of each type of hive, at least one of each tech building and then the upgrades themselves. (80+45+30+45=200) Compared to marines which is the arms lab which only requires an armory, and then the upgrades themselves.(10+20+30+50+70=180) Pretty sure I have the math right... The real problem is that I have never successfully managed to snipe an arms lab because of phase gates/observatories and that they are much easier to obtain as well as back up with spare arms lab. The only time you can ever take down the upgrades are when they have already lost because you just broke the main base. Not even to mention how varied the usefulness of certain upgrades actually are.
One of my biggest gripes though is how cheap jetpacks are. 10 res for what is basically one of the most powerful item in the game. Shotguns are completely ridiculous right now as well. Once they are out, if you don't have carapace up it is GG. You will never successfully take down another enemy structure unless they completely ignore you, or you have a onos which can actually take a hit or two before running in terror.
There are a lot of little things too. Like recycle, which can mitigate how much damage a successful raid can actually do. The far superior support options the marine commander gets for his troops. Things like MACs and ARCs which give a lot more diversity to the marine commander experience. Marines really do feel far more fleshed out in my opinion. That said, exo suits are pretty mediocre at the moment, flamethrowers are pretty useless, and early onos drop might be too effective against what the marines can have fielded at that point. I really do think that the "balance" between the two sides is very far off, and the more I run into better players playing on both teams, the more I keep seeing it.
It is hard to say exactly what I think needs to be changed, because the two sides ARE supposed to play differently and all I can refer too is what aliens lack but marines have while trying to keep any examples inside the game itself. Skulks need to be able to get a bit beefier especially once mid/late game comes around. Shotguns need to be toned down a tad. Jetpacks need to be more expensive. Exo need a tad more health, but should probably get slightly less accurate weapons. Poison spores need to shoot like umbra. I have no clue what to do to fade to actually make them worth using, but in my opinion they simply are not a viable choice at the moment. Alien commander needs more active abilities for combat/countering stuff, like the ability hide a unit from scans or something, maybe a healing cloud. Infestation needs to serve a purpose beyond just supporting structures, like a speed boost to units, better healing, something. Gorges should be able to consume dead buildings or something like that in order to reclaim some of the tres, as well as get some more buildables or a new ability since playing them feels pretty lackluster right now. I'm sure there are better answers then anything that I have posted, or more likely I am simply wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually agree with you about the jetpacks, I've always thought they were a bit too cheap for how much more survivability you get from them. Their price could be increased for sure.
The alien commander does indeed lack utility compared to the marine commander. Although bone wall can be very useful for the aliens I feel like it's still only one thing when compared to the marine commander's abilities. Infestation could also serve a bigger purpose in NS2 also.
for me and my experiences in pub servers, aliens are fun - unless there are a bunch of sandbagger team stackers who go marine and therefore shepard the 'casuals' onto the alien side. this is the biggest contributor to one-sided and boring games, and is frustrating. i simply leave the server and find a new one when this happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me it read normal, but != means Does Not Equal.
No one is arguing that the sides aren't necessarily balanced since when you look at statistics the win/loss for each team is almost 50/50 right now.
But as a marine I don't HAVE to jump into a big bulky exo to win the game, in fact marines don't need exos at all to win. I played a game where we all rushed with jetpacks and gls/shotguns to win, which is far more mobile than exos are anyway. In the last game I played as Aliens the marine sent an ARC to the room next to one of our Alien hives and kept scanning the hive while the ARC wrecked it. They had already fortified the position so we couldn't get at the ARC easily. And you can end games with ARCs too if you just protect them and never step into the hive.
What about Aliens? Against a base full of W3 A3 marines with GLs and shotguns, which Alien class is actually going to last long enough to take out the base? Nevermind destroying individual structures like marines can do to Alien upgrades, you have to hit that power node to actually stop them. Even a few onos run the risk of dying if they go after anything but the power upon entering the room. Fades are flexible but crumple like paper under concentrated fire, they aren't tanks anymore. And the Skulk is a joke by endgame outside of 1v1 encounters (assuming the skulk has more skill than the marine) or clumping together.
The point is Aliens really lack any sort of way to end the game, much less even push marines back besides the Onos once we get to mid/end game tactics. A competent Marine team will always win a game against Aliens that don't attempt to get an Onos on the field as soon as possible, especially if the Marines are turtling. As someone else already posted, Marines just feel more fleshed out.
If youve balanced marines vs skulks and gorges at the one minute mark, what happens when you introduce a fade into that timeframe? imbalance.
Timings are crucial.. because youve balanced a game around them for so long.. of course a player would attempt to have an advantageous timing (tres onos) ?? Its the best option because the game isnt balanced for it...
If youve balanced marines vs skulks and gorges at the one minute mark, what happens when you introduce a fade into that timeframe? imbalance.
Timings are crucial.. because youve balanced a game around them for so long.. of course a player would attempt to have an advantageous timing (tres onos) ?? Its the best option because the game isnt balanced for it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps Tres eggs should only be droppable after a player has had enough cumulative res to onos.
So if you have a player on your team who has had a cumulative amount of res = to 75 (not just having 75) you can drop an onos egg. This would discourage players spending 0 res so that the team could go early onos. But would still limit onos timing depending on the team p res flow instead of allowing comm to severely increase speed of onos drop.
I play both commanders but mainly marine. I think alien commander is much easier to play, and once marine commanders get up to speed less cheese will go unchecked.
Did this math in the other topic that whined about oni. Onos without carapace takes a total of 2500 damage (due to the armor absorbing 2 points per lmg bullet), each full lmg mag is a total of 500 damage at w0. So the final tally is 5 lmg mags to kill an uncarapaced onos. With carapace just add 800 more damage bringing it to 3300 damage, and now 6 1/2 lmg mags. Also you have pistols which are 25 per bullet so 250 per mag, so if 4 marines unloaded their lmgs for 2000 then hit every shot with the pistol that's a solid 3000 in no more than 5-6 seconds. After a pistol reload the other 300 should melt off quickly even with carapace. And that's all on no upgrades. Doesn't really sound like a problem when you have 8 marines but in a comp match when it's 6v6 I can see why they'd complain.
When you go with shotguns it's 170 if you get the full damage which you should, so from 8 rounds you can do 1220, the downside is it takes about .9 seconds between shots so that around 5.6 seconds if you hold the button down. But combine that with the pistol and one marine can do about 1470 in 6 to 7 seconds. So 2 shotguns and an lmg is more than enough to deal with a single onos pretty quickly.
The fastest I've actually seen an onos egg was a pro team did it on veil in about 4:30 by taking nano and not getting anything else. They still lost though, and considering they're considered the best team at this point I would say it's not an unbeatable strat by any means.
Like what this guy says, I'd say we should wait awhile and see if new tactics evolve to counter the early Onos.
This kind of stuff happened a lot in the early days of SC2, from what I remember. Certain builds were dominating, and then were being answered a short time later with a countering meta-build. (And then some patches deliberately nuked those certain builds anyways, so I digress.)
I'd think it'd be cool if some commander somewhere figures out a creative answer to early Onos. It'd be far interesting than a simple patch/nerf right off the bat. We should leave patches/nerfs as a last resort, not within the first few days of a certain tactic evolving...
When you go with shotguns it's 170 if you get the full damage which you should, so from 8 rounds you can do 1220, the downside is it takes about .9 seconds between shots so that around 5.6 seconds if you hold the button down. But combine that with the pistol and one marine can do about 1470 in 6 to 7 seconds. So 2 shotguns and an lmg is more than enough to deal with a single onos pretty quickly.
The fastest I've actually seen an onos egg was a pro team did it on veil in about 4:30 by taking nano and not getting anything else. They still lost though, and considering they're considered the best team at this point I would say it's not an unbeatable strat by any means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't believe you're still spouting this nonsense about a single arc vs exertus game when both arc and exertus players have explicitly stated that they think the tres onos is broken.
Please go watch some more recent competitive games. You can view most of the release tournaments (EU and NA) on blind's stream or the naturalselection2 twitch. There are about 30 games where 2 hive onos crushes its way to victory compared to the 2 or 3 games it doesn't.