Give Rifle, Shotgun, Flamer, GL upgrade more Sense
Mr.Greedy
Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
Current state:
Rifle = effective vs all lifeforms
Shotgun = effective vs all lifeforms
Flamethrower = effective vs all lifeforms
GL = effective vs all lifeforms
I wish some more real "counter"-weapons. It would have much more strategic depth to research weapons to counter special lifeforms and abilitys. For example: To research shotguns to counter ANY lifeform feels wrong (in particularly from the RTS-perspective) . "I get Shotguns cuz I like it" o_O . Hell no. Get a Shotgun/GL/Flamer because the team need it to answer the Alien tactics! Just add damage multipliers like:
Rifle(and pistol):
Skulk 1.0
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 1.0
Fade 0.9
Onos 0.75
Buildings : 0.5 (except Hydras 1.0)
Shotgun:
Skulk 0.4
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 0.5
Fade 1.5
Onos 1.25
Buildings : 0.75 (except Hydras 1.0)
Flamethrower:
Skulk 2.0
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 2.0 (also negate spores,umbra)
Fade 0.5
Onos 0.25
Buildings : 1.0 (except Whips 2.0 , cysts 3.0)
GL:
Skulk 0.5
Gorge 0.5
Lerk 0.5
Fade 0.5
Onos 3.0
Buildings : 2.0
Mines:
Skulk instant kill
Gorge 0.5
Lerk 1.0
Fade 1.0
Onos 1.0
Buildings : 1.0
Sentrys:
Skulk 2.0
Gorge 0.75
Lerk 2.0
Fade 1.25
Onos 0.25
Buildings : 0.5
Knife:
Skulk 1.0
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 1.0
Fade 1.0
Onos 1.0
Buildings : 0.75
Exo(claw)
Skulk 1.0
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 1.0
Fade 1.0
Onos 1.0
Buildings : 2.0
Exo(gun)
Skulk 1.25
Gorge 0.75
Lerk 1.25
Fade 1.25
Onos 0.75
Buildings : 0.5
Rifle = effective vs all lifeforms
Shotgun = effective vs all lifeforms
Flamethrower = effective vs all lifeforms
GL = effective vs all lifeforms
I wish some more real "counter"-weapons. It would have much more strategic depth to research weapons to counter special lifeforms and abilitys. For example: To research shotguns to counter ANY lifeform feels wrong (in particularly from the RTS-perspective) . "I get Shotguns cuz I like it" o_O . Hell no. Get a Shotgun/GL/Flamer because the team need it to answer the Alien tactics! Just add damage multipliers like:
Rifle(and pistol):
Skulk 1.0
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 1.0
Fade 0.9
Onos 0.75
Buildings : 0.5 (except Hydras 1.0)
Shotgun:
Skulk 0.4
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 0.5
Fade 1.5
Onos 1.25
Buildings : 0.75 (except Hydras 1.0)
Flamethrower:
Skulk 2.0
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 2.0 (also negate spores,umbra)
Fade 0.5
Onos 0.25
Buildings : 1.0 (except Whips 2.0 , cysts 3.0)
GL:
Skulk 0.5
Gorge 0.5
Lerk 0.5
Fade 0.5
Onos 3.0
Buildings : 2.0
Mines:
Skulk instant kill
Gorge 0.5
Lerk 1.0
Fade 1.0
Onos 1.0
Buildings : 1.0
Sentrys:
Skulk 2.0
Gorge 0.75
Lerk 2.0
Fade 1.25
Onos 0.25
Buildings : 0.5
Knife:
Skulk 1.0
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 1.0
Fade 1.0
Onos 1.0
Buildings : 0.75
Exo(claw)
Skulk 1.0
Gorge 1.0
Lerk 1.0
Fade 1.0
Onos 1.0
Buildings : 2.0
Exo(gun)
Skulk 1.25
Gorge 0.75
Lerk 1.25
Fade 1.25
Onos 0.75
Buildings : 0.5
Comments
when you start going down the 'abitrary damage bonus vs X' road then the game will boil down to a rock, paper, scissor cluster###### and you lower the twitch aim/shooter skill ceiling by half.
sorry to say, but this suggestion so terrible that combined with the smirnoff i had last night it has started to make my room rotate at a rapid pace.
Skill.hmm right. Ive forget that Commanders need also "skill" like aiming with medpacks/ammo. :p
You should not drink and read suggestions ;)
I mean, you already have some sort of balancing in your weapons... Shotgun loses its strength on long range, defending oneself against a skulk with a GL mostly suicides people, and even with a jetpack, hitting a lerk with a GL is nothing else than luck. And Flamethrowers already do very low damage on buildings (except cysts, which they should be used against).
So yes, the Marines should work as a team, and your weapons should reflect that, but imo thats already the case. If i want to take out a hive in mid- or lategame, I go with 1 exo, 1 GL, 1 Flamethrower and 1 shotgun, because stacking either one of these weapons would be a waste of resources - on public servers at least.
edit: as a commander, I think about what to research first. Flamethrowers are very good against Skulks, Gorges and Lurks, GL and Shotgun are better against an Onos and buildings. Mines are preferably researched in a Map like Veil with way too many ventilation shafts, etc.
to repeat myself, your suggestion would merely lower the shooter skill ceiling by a tonne for no other reason than to add an extra blueberry to your already blueberry-generous blueberry muffin.
honestly, I'm not keen on that idea as well...
I mean, you already have some sort of balancing in your weapons... Shotgun loses its strength on long range, defending oneself against a skulk with a GL mostly suicides people, and even with a jetpack, hitting a lerk with a GL is nothing else than luck. And Flamethrowers already do very low damage on buildings (except cysts, which they should be used against).
So yes, the Marines should work as a team, and your weapons should reflect that, but imo thats already the case. If i want to take out a hive in mid- or lategame, I go with 1 exo, 1 GL, 1 Flamethrower and 1 shotgun, because stacking either one of these weapons would be a waste of resources - on public servers at least.
edit: as a commander, I think about what to research first. Flamethrowers are very good against Skulks, Gorges and Lurks, GL and Shotgun are better against an Onos and buildings. Mines are preferably researched in a Map like Veil with way too many ventilation shafts, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, NS2 is infamous for large open fields so shotguns are very less effective in most situations and not the high-end waepon in early and endgame vs any sort of lifeforms.
Skulks are not the most killed lifeforms by GLs especially @ hive-atacks. Sure, sure. :>
"And Flametrower already do very low damage on buildings" <-- thats correct . AND on lifeforms
"Flamethrowers are very good against Skulks, Gorges and Lurks" . You have to play this game some more time :/
to repeat myself, your suggestion would merely lower the shooter skill ceiling by a tonne for no other reason than to add an extra blueberry to your already blueberry-generous blueberry muffin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never want NS2 = SC2 or near by it. Thats not possible cause its a hybrid. I just want more RTS-basics.
Just tell me, how it would decrease the aiming skill extremly?
And this suggestions dont lower the "shooter skill by a tonne" thats absurd and shows me that u havent read or understand those figures.
letz have a look:
Rifles:
hmmm looks very equal like before. Noticeable is Onos. And Buildings. Sure sure.To decrease the damage to a big 3 tons heavy creature or a static building would MASSIVE decrease the aiming skill :> .
the opposite... :
... GL. A huge dmg increase on onos... Wait.WHAT? You have to learn how to aim with a gl a walking onos?? Isent that an aiming skill increase o_O? Hmmm maybe,maybe. Oh, and that veeeery skilly skilly random skulk-kills by GLs are decreased. whoops
Flamethrower:
plz describe me where you ever need "aiming skills" with a flamethrower. Just..lol
Shotguns:
Thats the one and only "decrease in aiming skill"-argument I ever accept. But this change is need in my opinion for balancing + its not immposible to kill a skulk/lerk.(strictly speaking you have to aim better and more than only one time to kill a Skulk)
Just combine all those points. You are exaggerate this case.
Imposing a fifty (and as you wrote for SG vs. Skulks, sixty) percent damage decreases on certain types of aliens just... doesn't make sense. This would just completely cripple marines with invisible numbers and strange penalties. Why should an unarmored skulk take less damage from one type of gun, and that same gun deal more damage to a fully armored Onos?
<ul><li>Rifle is clearly a balanced fighter (range and steady flow of damage)</li><li>Shotgun is burst damage mostly used to counter Fades and Lerks</li><li>Grenadelauncher is area denial and anti structure, but weak against close range attackers due to self damage and low rate of fire</li><li>Flamethrower is anti infestation/clogsl and saps energy, is weak against close range attackers due to vision obscuring</li><li>Mines are anti Skulk static defense</li><li>Pistol is long range burst damage</li><li>Welder, well it repairs and is also very effective vs cysts and clogs</li><li>Axe, its quite effective vs structures</li></ul>
They all have their role and their function. Not all of them are effective in certain situations...
In so much that it doesn't waste ammo lol. Still takes decades to hack down any structure of meaningful size XD
I do wish some weapons performed better against the Onos. Most times I feel impotent in the face of one Onos, let alone a group of them. Nothing feels effective against them and it only gets worse if they have Stomp or Gorge-support.
Skulks are not the most killed lifeforms by GLs especially @ hive-atacks. Sure, sure. :>
"And Flametrower already do very low damage on buildings" <-- thats correct . AND on lifeforms
"Flamethrowers are very good against Skulks, Gorges and Lurks" . You have to play this game some more time :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually I do encounter some Lerks who prefer to stay somewhere on a pipe and shoot at max range, and yes at hive attacks GLs are good, that's what they are for.... but if you are walking somewhere with your GL and a Skulk attacks you, the GL is NOT the weapon of choice (or in other words, those who chose GL to fight the incoming Skulk(s) mostly blow themselves off before anything else)
and with a Jetpack and Flamethrower, any skulk I encounter who has not at least 2 buddies with him is just dead, or running away. and the Flamethrower comes in handy if a Lurk thinks he has to poison all the air around you. (obviously not if he's hiding on a pipe or something like that)
And don't you dare use RTS design to justify this sort of thing.
Extra damage based on unit type in a game like Starcraft is an extraordinarily crude way to establish "counters". Immortals beat roaches because immortals do extra damage to roaches. Void rays counter carriers because void rays do extra damage against carriers.
These are inherently uninteresting and lazy. You know what "counter units" <b>aren't</b> uninteresting and lazy?
Dragoon vs vulture. Dragoons are the "counter unit" to the vulture even though it does only half damage. You use dragoons because their superior range helps negate the vulture's range/speed advantage against the zealots, and to clear spider mines from a safe distance. Meanwhile, dragoons do full damage to siege tanks, yet they get absolutely <b>shredded</b> by the damn things. You use corsairs for overlord hunting because of their speed and low cost, not because they do extra damage to overlords, and you pair them with dark templar not because dark templar do bonus damage to anything, but because dark templar are incredibly hard to deal with without overlords on the field (and that's not because overlords do bonus damage to dark templar). Reavers don't do any bonus damage to anything, and yet they're <b>murderous</b> in mineral lines
See where I'm going with this?
A grenade launcher is great against skulks in certain situations and terrible against them in others not because of arbitrary damage modifiers but because the unique attribute inherent to a grenade launcher makes it useful or useless in those specific situations.
The axe actually does bonus damage to buildings
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Armor" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Armor</a>
The sort of things the OP wants already pretty much exist.
Maybe true, but the axe still does more DPS than the rifle.
<!--quoteo(post=2018561:date=Nov 10 2012, 01:15 PM:name=lastchaplain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lastchaplain @ Nov 10 2012, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do wish some weapons performed better against the Onos. Most times I feel impotent in the face of one Onos, let alone a group of them. Nothing feels effective against them and it only gets worse if they have Stomp or Gorge-support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly as you should feel, IMO. The Onos is the trump card, the tank, the "kill everything in sight" button. Just like the Dual-Exo is for the marines.
That's a problem right now. You can't buff the aliens because of the Onos, they simply are too good. If the Onos gets brought down a notch, you could bring the rest of the aliens up to par. Right now, an Onos is much much better than an Exosuit with duals. If a suit engages at range, the onos can charge straight toward it and kill it before the onos dies. It's insane. The marines don't have an answer to it. Put 5 basic marines against a fully teched Onos and watch what happens. Do the same thing with skulks and a dual exo and watch what happens. The result is predictable every time, Onos wins, Exo loses. I understand the need for a juggernaut to push through some turtled defenses, but IMO the Onos is too much, especially with stomp. The other issue is that there is almost no downside to spamming Onos, whereas a team of nothing but Exos will fail miserably, making the aliens endgame rushing far superior.
TL;DR nerf Onos, buff other aliens, slightly tweak shotgun damage, fixed.
On another note, I really think the flamethrower has no place in the game right now. Perhaps pull some damage away from the shotty and put it into the flamer? Increase ignited tick damage? Make ignited enemies not able to be healed so that marines have some kind of counter to an Onos/gorge facerolling everything they have? Ignited enemies move 50% slower so marines can chase down fleeing Onos/Fade/anything?
TL;DR nerf Onos, buff other aliens, slightly tweak shotgun damage, fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the fact that the alien team can spam Onos and still have trouble cracking a marine turtle is just as troubling. Though I do think that your right in that the other aliens need to be able to at least compete with the effectiveness of the Onos. Right now, a Fade is 2/3'rds the cost of an Onos, but I'm not even sure if it's 1/10'th as effective. I'd be perfectly fine with toning down the Onos so long as the other higher lifeforms received some kind of buff, and marine turtles were nerfed just a little.
<!--quoteo(post=2018692:date=Nov 10 2012, 03:29 PM:name=biggians)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biggians @ Nov 10 2012, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On another note, I really think the flamethrower has no place in the game right now. {Snip} Make ignited enemies not able to be healed so that marines have some kind of counter to an Onos/gorge facerolling everything they have?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That... Is actually a really awesome idea. The flamethrower already burns up Lurk spores, why not healspray?
So what if any structure receives 50% less effective healing for some allotted amount of time after it receives damage. Or maybe bile bombs in addition to corroding buildings armor applied some kind of structural healing debuff on a lower scale, say 20-30%? This shouldn't apply to marine armor repairs or Exos for obvious reasons IMO...
I think that could work nicely, actually. I doubt it'd get put straight into the game, but maybe if something like the Prototyping mod picked it up to see how it plays, it could have a chance.