Make Fade more effective
Safewood
Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166381Members
Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166381Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A few changes to shadow step and blink</div><b>Demonstration Video:</b> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaxfnH6MQY4&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaxfnH6MQY4&hd=1</a>
Note: From patch 228, and Dxtory rendered key strokes from not registering at times.
<u>Movement:</u>
You shouldn't lose any height, vertical nor horizontal velocity when you're crouching, because it makes it unnecessarily difficult to get into vents or up to platforms. This is true for marines as well, but it is even more so important for Fades.
There should be more control in air movement, if this would be exclusive for Fades is a matter of balance, but in narrow paths it's a death trap to try and even tap blink because you will go straight into some idiotic placed prop.
<u>Shadow Step:</u>
Make it possible to press Shift first before you press the movement keys to shadow step. Since right now, you have to press movement key and then press Shift to shadow step, hence you have to release Shift and press the respective movement key, and then press Shift again. It's like I'm working against nature, since all my life I've always pressed Shift first, and now they're going to make it unnecessarily complicated for the sake of raising the skill ceiling?
Increase its cost from 10 to 12, since right now, I believe it's just too cost-effective really. There's just no limit to how much you can spam shadow step, and I think one should be conscious to how one use shadow step.
<u>Blink:</u>
Reduce its energy cost from 12 to 10. Because of the cost, I rarely use it out of combat except from getting up to places. I loved how it was before, where I used a combination of shadow step and blink to travel around the map; they had their own purpose to how to get through the map most effectively, such as using shadow step to get to the ground faster or to easier get through low ceilings, and blink to travel more cost-effective for the expense of not having as high velocity as shadow step give.
<u>Vortex:</u>
Slows units by X% for X seconds, even those who aren't affected by Vortex but touches the Vortex are slowed for a couple of seconds. Already suggest, but included as addition to this; the duration is doubled on structures.
<b>Further explanation:</b>
If you could jump, shadow step at the highest point, jump again and shadow step at the highest point again, and then crouch. You could then get up to places without choosing a painfully obvious path for even rookies with shotgun to be able to hit you without much difficulty. Such as the treadmill in Sorting in the map Mineshaft. Into certain vents, such as the vent in West Junction in the map Veil and over certain stairs like the one in Extraction in Refinery.
That way, it will be easy for you as Fade to travel through the map without blink and be the assassin you're meant to be. Shadow step won't replace blink though, as it drains your adrenaline way too fast. For example, you can jump and immediately afterwards tap blink for a fraction of a second to travel in the most cost-effective way. Nor do you gain that much height either, because you can even jump over the platform in Sorting, from North Tunnel to the stairs in Conveyors, by only jump then tap blink, and jump in mid-air and then tap blink again.
As well as shadow step is much better to use when you're going through door ways with low ceiling, get down on the ground faster or have a better chance at dodging bullets.
To really get going, then shadow step, immediately blink to cancel out the shadow step's delay, then jump. You will gain immense velocity, however you need quite some space to do a second shadow step and blink, though you can't jump in mid-air. As well as without adrenaline upgrade you can only afford to do this combo about five times before you're out of adrenaline. There's quite some combos you can do with shadow step, jump and blink to maneuver around, however, without the changes above, then certain things get unnecessarily complicated and painfully predictable.
Note: From patch 228, and Dxtory rendered key strokes from not registering at times.
<u>Movement:</u>
You shouldn't lose any height, vertical nor horizontal velocity when you're crouching, because it makes it unnecessarily difficult to get into vents or up to platforms. This is true for marines as well, but it is even more so important for Fades.
There should be more control in air movement, if this would be exclusive for Fades is a matter of balance, but in narrow paths it's a death trap to try and even tap blink because you will go straight into some idiotic placed prop.
<u>Shadow Step:</u>
Make it possible to press Shift first before you press the movement keys to shadow step. Since right now, you have to press movement key and then press Shift to shadow step, hence you have to release Shift and press the respective movement key, and then press Shift again. It's like I'm working against nature, since all my life I've always pressed Shift first, and now they're going to make it unnecessarily complicated for the sake of raising the skill ceiling?
Increase its cost from 10 to 12, since right now, I believe it's just too cost-effective really. There's just no limit to how much you can spam shadow step, and I think one should be conscious to how one use shadow step.
<u>Blink:</u>
Reduce its energy cost from 12 to 10. Because of the cost, I rarely use it out of combat except from getting up to places. I loved how it was before, where I used a combination of shadow step and blink to travel around the map; they had their own purpose to how to get through the map most effectively, such as using shadow step to get to the ground faster or to easier get through low ceilings, and blink to travel more cost-effective for the expense of not having as high velocity as shadow step give.
<u>Vortex:</u>
Slows units by X% for X seconds, even those who aren't affected by Vortex but touches the Vortex are slowed for a couple of seconds. Already suggest, but included as addition to this; the duration is doubled on structures.
<b>Further explanation:</b>
If you could jump, shadow step at the highest point, jump again and shadow step at the highest point again, and then crouch. You could then get up to places without choosing a painfully obvious path for even rookies with shotgun to be able to hit you without much difficulty. Such as the treadmill in Sorting in the map Mineshaft. Into certain vents, such as the vent in West Junction in the map Veil and over certain stairs like the one in Extraction in Refinery.
That way, it will be easy for you as Fade to travel through the map without blink and be the assassin you're meant to be. Shadow step won't replace blink though, as it drains your adrenaline way too fast. For example, you can jump and immediately afterwards tap blink for a fraction of a second to travel in the most cost-effective way. Nor do you gain that much height either, because you can even jump over the platform in Sorting, from North Tunnel to the stairs in Conveyors, by only jump then tap blink, and jump in mid-air and then tap blink again.
As well as shadow step is much better to use when you're going through door ways with low ceiling, get down on the ground faster or have a better chance at dodging bullets.
To really get going, then shadow step, immediately blink to cancel out the shadow step's delay, then jump. You will gain immense velocity, however you need quite some space to do a second shadow step and blink, though you can't jump in mid-air. As well as without adrenaline upgrade you can only afford to do this combo about five times before you're out of adrenaline. There's quite some combos you can do with shadow step, jump and blink to maneuver around, however, without the changes above, then certain things get unnecessarily complicated and painfully predictable.
Comments
Bottom line, shotguns are highly effective against 4 out of 5 alien life forms, and are able to kill 4 out of 5 alien life forms in a little over 2 shots, taking less than a second. Shotguns need to be nerfed.
Smart players will change target as the others come in, and as soon as the Fade only have one target focusing on it, it then starts going to work. Picking off weak links.
If you make the Fade anymore tanky, it will be a complete monster against one or two marines trying to hold off a res node or CC, which then make Aliens more imbalanced then they already are with Onos.
Use common sense. The shotgun is only OP vs an Onos and if the marine has a jetpack. There is nothing wrong with 20 res killing a free unit, a 10 resource unit, or even the 50 resource unit if the person is going to rush into the face of a marine with a shotty. Spending more for something is not an excuse to say that you should win every time, this thing called skill is required or even an Onos can die to an AR marine.
All that being said, I don't think it would be terrible to slightly tweak the damage on a shotgun, but not by much. I think it's silly that pellets are so effective against an Onos from a decent range while a marine is jetpacking around. I'm concerned with nerfing the shotgun because if the shotgun isn't strong against a fade, what chance will marines have to deal with them at all? I don't really think the flamethrower is very good at dealing with fades (or anything for that matter...).
Bottom line, shotguns are highly effective against 4 out of 5 alien life forms, and are able to kill 4 out of 5 alien life forms in a little over 2 shots, taking less than a second. Shotguns need to be nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
someone help me, I'm agreeing with Imbalanxd
realistically, re-balancing the shotgun (removing randomness, lowering damage) would end up fixing more problems than buffing the Fade.
they're really easy to hit, and it relies more on gambles of attention than actual skill.
So the aliens have one light ambusher that is obsolete once marines get upgrades, two lifeforms that just cause chaos and pick off stragglers, and one healer / siege unit... that means their only actual hope vs. a group of marines that are making a dedicated push is the Onos - the only lifeform that can actually engage in direct combat.
There's something obviously wrong with this formula...
RE: Shotgun - The shotgun seems to be balanced around SOME pellets hitting, which means when ALL pellets hit, everything you aim at dies. Shotgun should have greatly reduced damage vs. armor and be almost useless against structures.
And this ###### needs to be nerfed:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/69kuc.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
There's something obviously wrong with this formula...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree to a certain extent, the problem is if you buff the rest of the aliens that aren't the Onos, Aliens will win every single game because of how much better the Onos is than the dual exosuit. I've suggested that the Onos should be nerfed somewhere, either in damage or survivability, so that the rest of the aliens don't have to be held back due to Onos being so strong.
The real answer has always been a sixth lifeform. In NS1, this role was filled by the TankFade. Personally I'm fine with not buffing the Fade to NS1 levels of durability, but that has left a big power vacuum and only the 5-minute Onos actually fills it.
The reason you can't nerf the Onos is because it would affect the situations you have now where you NEED an Onos. Marine stalemate turtleforts are bad enough now, with a nerfed Onos it would just drag the game on that much longer.
The quality of the marines makes a bigger one, really. Two-hit-kills with W3 shotguns, can't do much to avoid them.
I think a Fade should be the decoy in a team fight which takes down the weak links, however, if your job as a marine is to focus on that Fade before it enters the room, you can get quite a shot on it to actually make it not dare to come into the actual fight. This is even true when the team fight has already begun, though a Fade does have a better chance to get in there.
In the EU Grand Final this was most of the times the case, except from when the marines were occupied by an Onos trying to crush down their two armories and the Fade ambushed in a great timing, which resulted in the Fade managing to take down both.
<b>@ Temphage:</b>
I won't disagree that Lerks need some work, but Fades are in a somewhat good state. I strongly believe they just need some tweaks with their maneuvering, even a damage reduction while blinking isn't a necessity.
I personally believe shotguns are in a good state aswell, and my favourite faction is the aliens, too. It could be tweaked a bit which Princess_of_Power mentioned where it reduced its randomness and decreased its damage, but other than that I like where shotguns are right now.
There's been a few loose solutions to the 6 minute Onos, which could be either:
1.) Khammander can't drop an Onos egg until X minute mark.
2.) Aliens can't evolve to an Onos until 3rd Hive.
3.) Onos grows by kills; think of Cho'Gath from League of Legends.
The only things I will say are that the shotgun is a significant problem, both for lerks and fades. If I'm a Lerk and I encounter any more than a single marine, one of whom has a shotgun, I will not engage. At best I will harrass at a far distance with spikes, depending on the location. The other issue with Lerk is that it doesn't really fill the role it SHOULD be filling very well..as combat support. It's obviously not designed to take much damage at all, so forcing it to move into practically point blank range to use spores is counterintuitive. I think umbra should become more prevalent as a lerk ability, and umbra should be the "cropdusted" ability while, as many MANY people have suggested, spores should be the ranged ability, and maybe have the AOE toned down. (and it should ignore armor)
I think the limitations of blink and shadow step, that makes you most of the time fly in an obvious path, is what makes Shotgun so powerful.
If you could blink in, already hold shift and as soon as you release blink, you can press the movement key to shadow step in the direction you want, jump, turn around and immediately shadow step to another direction without releasing shift and dive right onto the marine. This is somewhat possible right now, but it takes quite some focus from you to be conscious on what keys to press in the right order to manage to do this. Which is quite difficult in the heat of moment.
I believe Lerk is quite lacking in what it does. If, like you already mentioned, had spores to be an upgrade to spike, but also a new attack ability. Dive. Locks movement and dives towards where you aim, and you can only ever so slightly move while diving. As you dive, you gain more speed. On direct hit, you will knock the player down just like Stomp.
You would have bite and dive as primary, and spikes/spores and umbra as secondary. I'm not sure if it would make Lerks overpowered, but perhaps let them use both primary and secondary simultaneously.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe Lerk is quite lacking in what it does. If, like you already mentioned, had spores to be an upgrade to spike, but also a new attack ability. Dive. Locks movement and dives towards where you aim, and you can only ever so slightly move while diving. As you dive, you gain more speed. On direct hit, you will knock the player down just like Stomp.
You would have bite and dive as primary, and spikes/spores and umbra as secondary. I'm not sure if it would make Lerks overpowered, but perhaps let them use both primary and secondary simultaneously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk is not lacking. It's just the most underrated Alien lifeform. It's really damn good. You're a damn flying Alien. You got what seems to be a hitscan ranged weapon, a bite for finishing em off with up close, and tons of maneuverability. Spores are also very versatile. You can use them offensively or defensively. Yeah, it doesn't do much when you just spore over Marines making a push, but spore in the path of retreat while the rest of your team pushes out, and you net easy kills. There's also Umbra, but I haven't used it. The Lerk also has the most terrifying Taunt sound as well.
Perhaps. I just feel the Lerk's kit should be changed up a bit.
I don't believe Fade need any more armor, it just need more freedom in maneuvering to easier dodge bullets and travel around the map.
<b>@ lifesfun:</b>
It's not that such places as stairs in Extraction, Sorting etc. are difficult to get through with only jump and shadow step, however, it's just painfully obvious paths, which even rookies with shotgun won't have a hard time hitting you.
To quickly through doors with low ceiling, then you jump first and shadow step afterwards. The quicker you shadow step after a jump the less height you gain. For more ways you can use shadow step, blink and jump, then read the thread post.
I don't believe Fade need any more armor, it just need more freedom in maneuvering to easier dodge bullets and travel around the map.
<b>@ lifesfun:</b>
It's not that such places as stairs in Extraction, Sorting etc. are difficult to get through with only jump and shadow step, however, it's just painfully obvious paths, which even rookies with shotgun won't have a hard time hitting you.
To quickly through doors with low ceiling, then you jump first and shadow step afterwards. The quicker you shadow step after a jump the less height you gain. For more ways you can use shadow step, blink and jump, then read the thread post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not mean the stairs, I meant to avoid using the stairs. In ns1 fades had many accessible routes to ambush marines from. Without blink in ns2 you are limited. In maps that have a wall slightly greater then the fades height, u cannot shadow up to it. Therefore u have to take a ramp or a stair route.
Thanks for the tip about the shadow step jump combo. Ill try it first thing. I was starting to get good at the ns1 fade about the time it started to die. So I miss having skill based combos in controlling movement.
You have three different methods to gain height while shadow stepping. One is to shadow step, then properly time a double-jump as soon as you can. The other is to jump, and use shadow step as soon as you've reached the highest point of the jump, then wait a little bit to jump again so that you can use shadow step once more.
The last one is a combination of the two, you shadow step, properly time a jump, then wait a little bit until you can shadow step again.
To travel the most cost-effective way, is to jump and immediately tap blink for a fraction of a second, you can do this once more in mid-air aswell. However, to gain the highest speed, you have to shadow step, use blink immediately afterwards to cancel out the shadow step's delay and then jump, and before you hit the ground you can do a shadow step and blink combo once more, but without a second jump.
Of course, there's some other ways you can combine shadow step, blink and jump, but they will become obvious when you start using those I've mentioned in practice.
For shadow step to be more effective, they need to slightly decrease the cooldown of shadow step. So that you can jump, use shadow step at the highest point of the jump, jump in mid-air, and then use shadow step again at the highest point of the jump. To further compliment this, then crouching should work like it did in HL1, where you didn't lose any height, horizontal nor vertical velocity.
As well as change direction of shadow stepping without having to release Shift, for example, you have to press W first and then Shift for shadow step to work, then you have to release Shift and press D, and then hold Shift again. Unnecessarily complicated, if you ask me.
No problem; glad you found it useful. :)
Thinking about making two videos, one demonstrating why I want these changes and another for how to do these techniques. However, my English is terrible verbally, so I'll see what I can get out of it.
Personally I think the only thing the fade needs currently is a bit more armor with less health, and reintroduce focus. With focus being a second hive upgrade it will make both the fade and skulk more viable late game while not changing early game at all.
Read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=124113&view=findpost&p=2021586" target="_blank">this post</a> to learn how effective blink is over shadow step.
I use shadow step only to get faster to the ground, to easier dodge bullets or when I need to be as fast as possible (combined with blink and jump, that is). Blink is not only more cost-effective while traveling, but you also have much more air movement than shadow step.
Read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=124113&view=findpost&p=2021586" target="_blank">this post</a> to learn how effective blink is over shadow step.
I use shadow step only to get faster to the ground, to easier dodge bullets or when I need to be as fast as possible (combined with blink and jump, that is). Blink is not only more cost-effective while traveling, but you also have much more air movement than shadow step.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have read your post, and politely disagree. Blink is less cost effective in nearly every way, is slower, and isn't sustainable travel through a map. In my eyes the only reason to ever research blink for a fade is to be able to move vertically. Also I find that shadow step has boat loads more maneuverability than blink (with the exception of going up) because of the massive amount of air control in this game.
With blink you can literally only move forward, but with shadow step you can change directions easily and round corners at a higher speed than with blink using air strafing.
Blink max speed is 17.15 (not sure if celerity affects this), shadow step has a max speed of 21. You will never get above 21 speed using any combination of blink, jumping, and shadow stepping because shadow stepping is the fastest and most efficient use of energy available to the fade. If you can I would like to see a video of this and will retract this argument.
Also shadow stepping is being buffed in the next patch =)
You can only get up to 17~ velocity with blink, yes. However, in terms of energy vs. distance, blink beats shadow step. Anyway, I have already recorded a few demos of myself using these techniques. I will upload a video in at the very least a few days.
What's the word on shadow step? :3
Edit: Rephrased.
- Increased blink momentum to be close to build 220
- Increase start blink energy cost from 8 to 12
Fade changes next patch.
I still don't see how you can argue that blink is more efficient than shadow step. Using shadow step in the video I made i crossed the entire tram tunnels and arrived with full energy in 10 seconds, using blink I ran completely out of energy not even a third of the way there.
Am looking forward to the videos though, always looking to improve.
Thanks a bunch for the information, much appreciated. :)
I don't think any of those changes were necessary, to be honest. Blink already had a balanced pace (vs. jetpackers), shadow step had a perfectly fine energy cost, and the only thing I agree with is the increased energy cost on blink.
I figured you hadn't taken in from the post I linked. Don't get me wrong, you probably read the post, however, what you're arguing against is holding blink in the whole way versus just jump and tap blink for a fraction of a second. It's understandable though, because I know my wording makes reading tedious and at times difficult to understand.
I am already uploading a video now, though I had to do it through Dxtory, because there's no playback on demos and that just makes the work ten times more difficult. I had to turn down the resolution because of heavy FPS drops, which I still get sometimes, and because of the lower resolution my sensitivity felt completely different. In other words, there occurred quite a few problems for me.
Anyway, here's the link: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaxfnH6MQY4&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaxfnH6MQY4&hd=1</a>
Edit: New upload. Fixed the sound now.