I am a alien player that tends to gorge the first 8-10 minutes of a match. Here is my perspective.
Hyrdas are just ok early game. Deploying three cleverly, building clog effectively and combining with gorge spit / heals... they do alright.
But they can be expensive not to babysit them. They won't stop a confident marine who knows what he is doing.
By late game they really are not doing anything besides being a very minor annoyance or ignored entirely.
What I would like to see.
1. Hydra reclaiming giving back a small portion of res. Even +1 would be at least a nod. 2. Can hydras get another perk after having become fully grown and surviving for a great length of time? Perhaps something like a Spike Shower, similar to a short range shotgun spread? Otherwise the same single spike for further range. Like one center "Spike Flower" on a stem, that does a single blast and can regrow after a time? If you are a marine that just sprints through these sort of hyras you are gonna get a nasty surprise, at least the first marine.
Besides that, gorges are in a good place. Still wish they could get more of a score while staring at a building hive / harvester or getting "Gorge Heal me."
<!--quoteo(post=2018686:date=Nov 10 2012, 11:20 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 10 2012, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't think this is true.
i could be wrong of course, but my thoughts are immediately drawn to a situation on pub server where i used clog climbing through the vent to 'flank' a marine-controlled nanogrid on veil (totally not serious, just thought it would be funny), and put hydras in the vent opening... a single marine couldn't kill the hydra - but my hydra weren't in range/angle to hit him so i was nothing more than a nuisance :)
when he reloaded his AR, i was able to catch up the healing - even when my energy was fully drained and i was relying on the regen i was able to keep it alive for 3-4 clips at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just tested this in-game. 2 clips to take out a hydra a gorge is healing. Can't be 100% he was healing all the time, but the gorge was there, healing, and I took all 3 hydras down with relative ease. Weapon level 0.
I might have even missed a couple shots, because I was shooting them from beyond hydra range. (lol.)
Well, its a matter of numbers and if the Gorge is there to heal or not.
Six to nine hydras with clog can be brutal and can deny most harassment which is consummate with expending three player's worth of PRes in Gorges + hydras.
Hydras also are very useful against jetpackers in busy hives. When heaps of aliens are trying to stop a jetpack a few hydras can really make the difference in putting him down/keeping him moving.
One of the most interesting but unexploited uses of Hydras I forsee is with the tempGorge.
In many pubs I go fast gorge, drop three hydras in a useful spot and then skulk again. Sure that's nineteen res but when you can stack on a permagorge's own three or keep a res node safe from a solo marine it's pretty handy. If a few players tempgorged together as a standard play you could really see some area lockdowns in that early game. This would especially feed into a fast hive strat with three temp gorges to hydra/clog a tech point, build the hive/res and move on for the rest of the game.
Since egg drops can solve most of the problems with tempgorging (i.e. you can burn all your res but still get an onos egg with no loss in the timing of the strat) I think this could become fairly standard in pubs.
If Alien building is to become more serious in pubs I imagine some kind of higher tier, 30-50 res Gorge style lifeform would be in order. Something with a higher cap for hydras, clog, etc and the ability to drop crags, shades and shifts [or something like that] which you are playing the whole game. The kind of lifeform that would set up a forward base by itself for others to play off or basically lockdown an area against a small group basic marines if it's good at what it's doing.
Only make the first 3 hydras cost 3 pres. You can also keep the 3 hydra limit even. After the 3rd hydra though the subsequent hydras are free. The 3 hydra limit is still in effect where initial hydra is destroyed and so on. This lasts until the gorge player dies or switches lifeform. If they regorge they'll have to pay again for the initial 3 hydras again.
Like this gorge players still pay for their weak hydras, but they are allowed more flexibility in how to use them without feeling like they are just bleeding pres. Killing a gorge will be set back for the alien side, since they will have to spend another 9 res to get all 3 hydra back up (total 19 for gorge and hydras)...so its not exactly a free ride.
Only make the first 3 hydras cost 3 pres. You can also keep the 3 hydra limit even. After the 3rd hydra though the subsequent hydras are free. The 3 hydra limit is still in effect where initial hydra is destroyed and so on. This lasts until the gorge player dies or switches lifeform. If they regorge they'll have to pay again for the initial 3 hydras again.
Like this gorge players still pay for their weak hydras, but they are allowed more flexibility in how to use them without feeling like they are just bleeding pres. Killing a gorge will be set back for the alien side, since they will have to spend another 9 res to get all 3 hydra back up (total 19 for gorge and hydras)...so its not exactly a free ride.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure how this helps with the 3 hydra limit. Are you saying this makes it easier to "reposition" hydras (or replace killed hydras without costing more?
Only make the first 3 hydras cost 3 pres. You can also keep the 3 hydra limit even. After the 3rd hydra though the subsequent hydras are free. The 3 hydra limit is still in effect where initial hydra is destroyed and so on. This lasts until the gorge player dies or switches lifeform. If they regorge they'll have to pay again for the initial 3 hydras again.
Like this gorge players still pay for their weak hydras, but they are allowed more flexibility in how to use them without feeling like they are just bleeding pres. Killing a gorge will be set back for the alien side, since they will have to spend another 9 res to get all 3 hydra back up (total 19 for gorge and hydras)...so its not exactly a free ride.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I don't like Gorges having to spend Prez on Hydras. Makes me feel like whenever I start playing Gorge, that is all I'll be doing for the rest of the game because I'm constantly spending Prez on Hydras, and I know that if I die I'm losing 9 prez if I don't go gorge again cause my Hydras die .
Is it possible to get hyper mutation back but only in a 2 base life form mode? So often I want to skulk/gorge, maybe have a 'lower life form' restriction as well as only 2 base forms. So I pay *full* for lerk with hypermutation, and *full* later for gorge (hyper is auto selected, plus I cannot select fade or onos, even with the res) ... and thats it. I can switch between those 2 only. I would not be able to go gorge first then lerk either.
With the 10 res cost to 'regorge' my hydras become uberweak uberfast.
I really like hydras as they are right now. They're annoying enough that I don't want to fight skulks in the room with the hydras in it, but they're not so annoying that I feel like complaining on the forums about how boring it is to fight mindless structures. They delay, and are bothersome, but not really fearsome. With a gorge they can be even more annoying.
I think they're exactly as they should be, a situational combat support structure that gives aliens an advantage if they are intelligently placed. I don't want static defense any more prominent in this game. It's not fun to fight against static defense.
<b>1. Cost</b> I think, the easiest step to quickly balance hydras is to make hydras refund the 3 res cost or make them free entirely. At least untill they get a complete overhaul.
<b>2. Late game uselessness</b> No scaling. I dream that hydras could be affected by gorges upgrades:
<u>Carapace</u> - more survivability <u>Regeneration</u> - regeneration <u>Celerity</u> - faster projectiles <u>Adrenaline</u> - faster rate of fire <u>Silence</u> - silence <u>Camouflage</u> - camouflage
Also their damage type should deal more dmg against armor.
<b>3. Attack - a projectile that can be avoided by strafing and has a limited range</b> I think there should me no range limit on hydras, or at least be extended. The projectiles are not hit-scan so the further away the target is the harder it is for hydra to hit
As of right now, granted I play mostly as a Lerk though I do dip into Gorging myself from time to time, I feel that Hydras need some sort of buff to fulfill their purpose. Without the Gorge sitting there and healing them then the plants don't even slow a marine down, even less so when they get an armor upgrade. If the Gorge IS healing them the smart marine will just run up and shoot the Gorge then kill the hydras.
One way to work with this is either by reducing the cost of the Hydras to one, rather than three, and keeping the limit since they currently do not provide enough for their cost. I think Mamonar has an interesting idea with giving them aspects to the way you build your Gorge that sounds interesting, from the evolutionary traits it inherits to giving the Hydras more range which is sorely needed. Or, if nothing else, I liked the idea from Outlaw stating the first three cost res but after that you can place the ones that might die, or place new ones to reposition, for free as interesting too.
It's just right now they could use some kind of work to make them less of an annoyance to be swatted rather then a threat to be considered.
I think yesterdays ESL finals demonstrated the weakness of Hydras pretty good, I was even surprised that they were used at all. Whenever Hydras were placed two marines only took a few seconds to take them out. Sometimes even without the Hydras firing as they could be outranged. A complete waste of pres.
<!--quoteo(post=2019048:date=Nov 10 2012, 07:21 PM:name=obsid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (obsid @ Nov 10 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure how this helps with the 3 hydra limit. Are you saying this makes it easier to "reposition" hydras (or replace killed hydras without costing more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Both really If after the 3rd hydra subsequent hydras are free, you are allowed more freedom to reposition hydras since you won't have too worry about bleeding pres by doing so The cost to benefit ratio of the hydras is the problem. Allowing players to spam more static defenses to compensate for their weakness isn't an ideal solution. At the same time relatively strong static defenses also isn't a suitable solution (people don't want to pve). This idea keeps weak hydras that have an initial cost, but they won't break the bank in the long run when gorges re-position or redeploy hydras. This allows the gorge to keep his hydras near him where they are the most effective. This also keeps the focus of players fighting players with hydras simply as intermediates. Hydras unsupported by gorges should die easily.
Reduce or higher the cost of each hydra as need be ...with all hydras after the third being free.
Comments
Hyrdas are just ok early game. Deploying three cleverly, building clog effectively and combining with gorge spit / heals... they do alright.
But they can be expensive not to babysit them. They won't stop a confident marine who knows what he is doing.
By late game they really are not doing anything besides being a very minor annoyance or ignored entirely.
What I would like to see.
1. Hydra reclaiming giving back a small portion of res. Even +1 would be at least a nod.
2. Can hydras get another perk after having become fully grown and surviving for a great length of time? Perhaps something like a Spike Shower, similar to a short range shotgun spread? Otherwise the same single spike for further range. Like one center "Spike Flower" on a stem, that does a single blast and can regrow after a time? If you are a marine that just sprints through these sort of hyras you are gonna get a nasty surprise, at least the first marine.
Besides that, gorges are in a good place. Still wish they could get more of a score while staring at a building hive / harvester or getting "Gorge Heal me."
i could be wrong of course, but my thoughts are immediately drawn to a situation on pub server where i used clog climbing through the vent to 'flank' a marine-controlled nanogrid on veil (totally not serious, just thought it would be funny), and put hydras in the vent opening... a single marine couldn't kill the hydra - but my hydra weren't in range/angle to hit him so i was nothing more than a nuisance :)
when he reloaded his AR, i was able to catch up the healing - even when my energy was fully drained and i was relying on the regen i was able to keep it alive for 3-4 clips at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just tested this in-game. 2 clips to take out a hydra a gorge is healing. Can't be 100% he was healing all the time, but the gorge was there, healing, and I took all 3 hydras down with relative ease. Weapon level 0.
I might have even missed a couple shots, because I was shooting them from beyond hydra range. (lol.)
Six to nine hydras with clog can be brutal and can deny most harassment which is consummate with expending three player's worth of PRes in Gorges + hydras.
Hydras also are very useful against jetpackers in busy hives. When heaps of aliens are trying to stop a jetpack a few hydras can really make the difference in putting him down/keeping him moving.
One of the most interesting but unexploited uses of Hydras I forsee is with the tempGorge.
In many pubs I go fast gorge, drop three hydras in a useful spot and then skulk again. Sure that's nineteen res but when you can stack on a permagorge's own three or keep a res node safe from a solo marine it's pretty handy. If a few players tempgorged together as a standard play you could really see some area lockdowns in that early game. This would especially feed into a fast hive strat with three temp gorges to hydra/clog a tech point, build the hive/res and move on for the rest of the game.
Since egg drops can solve most of the problems with tempgorging (i.e. you can burn all your res but still get an onos egg with no loss in the timing of the strat) I think this could become fairly standard in pubs.
If Alien building is to become more serious in pubs I imagine some kind of higher tier, 30-50 res Gorge style lifeform would be in order. Something with a higher cap for hydras, clog, etc and the ability to drop crags, shades and shifts [or something like that] which you are playing the whole game. The kind of lifeform that would set up a forward base by itself for others to play off or basically lockdown an area against a small group basic marines if it's good at what it's doing.
Only make the first 3 hydras cost 3 pres. You can also keep the 3 hydra limit even.
After the 3rd hydra though the subsequent hydras are free. The 3 hydra limit is still in effect where initial hydra is destroyed and so on.
This lasts until the gorge player dies or switches lifeform. If they regorge they'll have to pay again for the initial 3 hydras again.
Like this gorge players still pay for their weak hydras, but they are allowed more flexibility in how to use them without feeling like they are just bleeding pres. Killing a gorge will be set back for the alien side, since they will have to spend another 9 res to get all 3 hydra back up (total 19 for gorge and hydras)...so its not exactly a free ride.
Only make the first 3 hydras cost 3 pres. You can also keep the 3 hydra limit even.
After the 3rd hydra though the subsequent hydras are free. The 3 hydra limit is still in effect where initial hydra is destroyed and so on.
This lasts until the gorge player dies or switches lifeform. If they regorge they'll have to pay again for the initial 3 hydras again.
Like this gorge players still pay for their weak hydras, but they are allowed more flexibility in how to use them without feeling like they are just bleeding pres. Killing a gorge will be set back for the alien side, since they will have to spend another 9 res to get all 3 hydra back up (total 19 for gorge and hydras)...so its not exactly a free ride.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure how this helps with the 3 hydra limit. Are you saying this makes it easier to "reposition" hydras (or replace killed hydras without costing more?
Only make the first 3 hydras cost 3 pres. You can also keep the 3 hydra limit even.
After the 3rd hydra though the subsequent hydras are free. The 3 hydra limit is still in effect where initial hydra is destroyed and so on.
This lasts until the gorge player dies or switches lifeform. If they regorge they'll have to pay again for the initial 3 hydras again.
Like this gorge players still pay for their weak hydras, but they are allowed more flexibility in how to use them without feeling like they are just bleeding pres. Killing a gorge will be set back for the alien side, since they will have to spend another 9 res to get all 3 hydra back up (total 19 for gorge and hydras)...so its not exactly a free ride.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I don't like Gorges having to spend Prez on Hydras. Makes me feel like whenever I start playing Gorge, that is all I'll be doing for the rest of the game because I'm constantly spending Prez on Hydras, and I know that if I die I'm losing 9 prez if I don't go gorge again cause my Hydras die .
Is it possible to get hyper mutation back but only in a 2 base life form mode? So often I want to skulk/gorge, maybe have a 'lower life form' restriction as well as only 2 base forms. So I pay *full* for lerk with hypermutation, and *full* later for gorge (hyper is auto selected, plus I cannot select fade or onos, even with the res) ... and thats it. I can switch between those 2 only. I would not be able to go gorge first then lerk either.
With the 10 res cost to 'regorge' my hydras become uberweak uberfast.
I think they're exactly as they should be, a situational combat support structure that gives aliens an advantage if they are intelligently placed. I don't want static defense any more prominent in this game. It's not fun to fight against static defense.
<b>1. Cost</b>
I think, the easiest step to quickly balance hydras is to make hydras refund the 3 res cost or make them free entirely. At least untill they get a complete overhaul.
<b>2. Late game uselessness</b>
No scaling. I dream that hydras could be affected by gorges upgrades:
<u>Carapace</u> - more survivability
<u>Regeneration</u> - regeneration
<u>Celerity</u> - faster projectiles
<u>Adrenaline</u> - faster rate of fire
<u>Silence</u> - silence
<u>Camouflage</u> - camouflage
Also their damage type should deal more dmg against armor.
<b>3. Attack - a projectile that can be avoided by strafing and has a limited range</b>
I think there should me no range limit on hydras, or at least be extended. The projectiles are not hit-scan so the further away the target is the harder it is for hydra to hit
One way to work with this is either by reducing the cost of the Hydras to one, rather than three, and keeping the limit since they currently do not provide enough for their cost. I think Mamonar has an interesting idea with giving them aspects to the way you build your Gorge that sounds interesting, from the evolutionary traits it inherits to giving the Hydras more range which is sorely needed. Or, if nothing else, I liked the idea from Outlaw stating the first three cost res but after that you can place the ones that might die, or place new ones to reposition, for free as interesting too.
It's just right now they could use some kind of work to make them less of an annoyance to be swatted rather then a threat to be considered.
A complete waste of pres.
Both really
If after the 3rd hydra subsequent hydras are free, you are allowed more freedom to reposition hydras since you won't have too worry about bleeding pres by doing so
The cost to benefit ratio of the hydras is the problem. Allowing players to spam more static defenses to compensate for their weakness isn't an ideal solution. At the same time relatively strong static defenses also isn't a suitable solution (people don't want to pve). This idea keeps weak hydras that have an initial cost, but they won't break the bank in the long run when gorges re-position or redeploy hydras. This allows the gorge to keep his hydras near him where they are the most effective. This also keeps the focus of players fighting players with hydras simply as intermediates. Hydras unsupported by gorges should die easily.
Reduce or higher the cost of each hydra as need be ...with all hydras after the third being free.