Armoury walling
d0ped0g
Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
<div class="IPBDescription">regarding it's use in competitive matches</div>I found it interesting while watching the ESL tournament finals that Charlie gave his opinions on armory walling and seemed to not only imply it's okay, but almost outright endorsed it's use.
What I didn't find interesting was that almost every match contained some sort of ridiculous stalemate between an early onos and an armory wall. As little as two marines with rifles are able to hold off an onos and even get it pretty low on health, without it being able to penetrate the armoury wall. If you have a narrow hallway at home, try picture you on one end of it, and a rhino who's out for blood on the other side. There is a fridge right in the middle of the hallway for some reason. That rhino isn't going to let a puny fridge get in his way, but in ns2, that fridge is the bane of an onos' existence.
I feel that the prevalence of this tactic in competitive play is a symptom of the early onos. Like it or not, marines have to do this to restore the balance against an evenly matched team, otherwise any competant onos can rip through an entire team. For this reason, absolutely no disrespect to any clan that does it.
However, I just see it as incredibly boring, frustrating and downright lame play. I personally don't do it on public servers just out of principle. However, as somebody who would like to play competitively in the future, one of the things that's pushing me away from this is is knowing that every match is going to be onoses vs armories. Yawn... Sure gentlemen's agreements can be made not to armory wall and likewise not to 2nd hive onos egg, but I don't like the idea that almost a different game is being played. Also, not everybody would agree. The likelihood is that with it's high prevalence in competitive matches thus far, if you're going to play in a clan, you're going to have to armory wall, as the other team is just going to do the same against you (and have the upper hand if you don't do the same).
While I understand the "It's like Starcraft. It's okay in that. And it costs tres. So there's a tradeoff" argument, this game isn't Starcraft, and 10 tres is nothing compared to the damage an onos can otherwise do. I even heard the cost being called "quite a significant tres investment" during the live stream, when that's absolutely not true. A prototype lab is a significant investment. Weapons and armour 3 are significant investments. Exosuits are significant investments. Usually armory walls aren't penetrated right away so are welded so that tres investment pays off for quite a while anyway.
What I don't get is why it ever broke the stigma of being cheap from ns1. If I remember correctly, onoses could jump over armories anyway, but it was still highly frowned upon. Matches were sometimes decided on time (if there was a tie), so for maps like tanith, marines would sometimes wall themselves in at the very end, and try to outlast the other team's time. With the combination of it being difficult (but not impossible) to make it past the armory wall, and beacon, matches could sometimes be drawn out quite long. So ns1 armory blocking is far less effective, and doesn't outright make it impossible for onoses to get past, and was still considered cheap (at least in my part of the world), yet in ns2 it's not only condoned, but endorsed in competitive play? This seems awful odd (though I don't need reminding ns1 isn't ns2).
Anyway, I don't doubt that there will be a fair share of people saying "armory walling is legit and inventive use of game mechanics". If this weren't the case, it wouldn't be done in the first place. I'm interested to see if anyone out there feels the same way and have a discussion on this topic.
Personally, I want to see ns2 be a fun game to both watch and play. And the use of armory walling isn't helping things very much. Seeing this happen almost every game is not very entertaining. I understand it's effective, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed. During the tournament I even saw a team try and build an armory behind a retreating onos after it broke through the first armory wall. Now tell me that isn't cheap... Even with ghost structures reducing the effectiveness and easyness, it's still structure blocking (although even this was called 'smart use of game mechanics' by some of the community, before UWE included ghost structures to help solve the exploitability of this).
Perhaps if this strategy really wants to be kept in by the developers we should make some changes to the onos to reduce the crippling effect it has on it's seiging capabilities.. Maybe we should have charge a researchable ability, that if you attack at the very end of it, it does massive structural damage (possibly scaled by how long you charged for). Either that, or have the attack allow the onos to bust through buildings (allowing him to get on the other side of the armory wall, but without destroying it, and with no way out but to kill the marines as it probably doesn't have energy to charge again and bust through to the otherside to heal). You could also get the charge attack to knock around buildings to change their location slightly. Armory blocking could still be done in this scenario, but it would reduce the effectiveness and give onoses an ability to counter it.
Anyway, I want to reiterate that there's absolutely no disrespect to the clans that use armory blocking in their standard repertoire. I've thrown round words like cheap and lame, and I don't want anybody to be offended (I understand that everybody does it, and it's certainly one of the only viable defences around at the moment for 2nd hive onos egg). Especially considering this tactic seems to be adopted by basically the entire competitive community. Would be interesting to gather the opinions of the community on this though, especially those involved in high-level competitive play.
What I didn't find interesting was that almost every match contained some sort of ridiculous stalemate between an early onos and an armory wall. As little as two marines with rifles are able to hold off an onos and even get it pretty low on health, without it being able to penetrate the armoury wall. If you have a narrow hallway at home, try picture you on one end of it, and a rhino who's out for blood on the other side. There is a fridge right in the middle of the hallway for some reason. That rhino isn't going to let a puny fridge get in his way, but in ns2, that fridge is the bane of an onos' existence.
I feel that the prevalence of this tactic in competitive play is a symptom of the early onos. Like it or not, marines have to do this to restore the balance against an evenly matched team, otherwise any competant onos can rip through an entire team. For this reason, absolutely no disrespect to any clan that does it.
However, I just see it as incredibly boring, frustrating and downright lame play. I personally don't do it on public servers just out of principle. However, as somebody who would like to play competitively in the future, one of the things that's pushing me away from this is is knowing that every match is going to be onoses vs armories. Yawn... Sure gentlemen's agreements can be made not to armory wall and likewise not to 2nd hive onos egg, but I don't like the idea that almost a different game is being played. Also, not everybody would agree. The likelihood is that with it's high prevalence in competitive matches thus far, if you're going to play in a clan, you're going to have to armory wall, as the other team is just going to do the same against you (and have the upper hand if you don't do the same).
While I understand the "It's like Starcraft. It's okay in that. And it costs tres. So there's a tradeoff" argument, this game isn't Starcraft, and 10 tres is nothing compared to the damage an onos can otherwise do. I even heard the cost being called "quite a significant tres investment" during the live stream, when that's absolutely not true. A prototype lab is a significant investment. Weapons and armour 3 are significant investments. Exosuits are significant investments. Usually armory walls aren't penetrated right away so are welded so that tres investment pays off for quite a while anyway.
What I don't get is why it ever broke the stigma of being cheap from ns1. If I remember correctly, onoses could jump over armories anyway, but it was still highly frowned upon. Matches were sometimes decided on time (if there was a tie), so for maps like tanith, marines would sometimes wall themselves in at the very end, and try to outlast the other team's time. With the combination of it being difficult (but not impossible) to make it past the armory wall, and beacon, matches could sometimes be drawn out quite long. So ns1 armory blocking is far less effective, and doesn't outright make it impossible for onoses to get past, and was still considered cheap (at least in my part of the world), yet in ns2 it's not only condoned, but endorsed in competitive play? This seems awful odd (though I don't need reminding ns1 isn't ns2).
Anyway, I don't doubt that there will be a fair share of people saying "armory walling is legit and inventive use of game mechanics". If this weren't the case, it wouldn't be done in the first place. I'm interested to see if anyone out there feels the same way and have a discussion on this topic.
Personally, I want to see ns2 be a fun game to both watch and play. And the use of armory walling isn't helping things very much. Seeing this happen almost every game is not very entertaining. I understand it's effective, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed. During the tournament I even saw a team try and build an armory behind a retreating onos after it broke through the first armory wall. Now tell me that isn't cheap... Even with ghost structures reducing the effectiveness and easyness, it's still structure blocking (although even this was called 'smart use of game mechanics' by some of the community, before UWE included ghost structures to help solve the exploitability of this).
Perhaps if this strategy really wants to be kept in by the developers we should make some changes to the onos to reduce the crippling effect it has on it's seiging capabilities.. Maybe we should have charge a researchable ability, that if you attack at the very end of it, it does massive structural damage (possibly scaled by how long you charged for). Either that, or have the attack allow the onos to bust through buildings (allowing him to get on the other side of the armory wall, but without destroying it, and with no way out but to kill the marines as it probably doesn't have energy to charge again and bust through to the otherside to heal). You could also get the charge attack to knock around buildings to change their location slightly. Armory blocking could still be done in this scenario, but it would reduce the effectiveness and give onoses an ability to counter it.
Anyway, I want to reiterate that there's absolutely no disrespect to the clans that use armory blocking in their standard repertoire. I've thrown round words like cheap and lame, and I don't want anybody to be offended (I understand that everybody does it, and it's certainly one of the only viable defences around at the moment for 2nd hive onos egg). Especially considering this tactic seems to be adopted by basically the entire competitive community. Would be interesting to gather the opinions of the community on this though, especially those involved in high-level competitive play.
Comments
The armory blocking is really only useful against the onos and is probably a detriment to the marine team against the other lifeforms. It is so prevalent at the moment because aliens are using the fast onos in every single game as a crutch to supplement late fades.
If you think armory blocking is annoying for Oni, imagine how much of a pain it is as a team to have a single unit destroying your bases one by one with no way to impede or combat it.
Does that help?
<!--quoteo(post=2019278:date=Nov 11 2012, 01:11 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 11 2012, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally have no problem with the armory blocking. I think it is a legit tactic. The one thing I'd like to see changed is the fact that you can weld the armory faster than the onos can kill it. I'd like to see a limit where you cannot weld for a second after the building takes damage.
The armory blocking is really only useful against the onos and is probably a detriment to the marine team against the other lifeforms. It is so prevalent at the moment because aliens are using the fast onos in every single game as a crutch to supplement late fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks. This post has some extremely good points. Especially that about it being a detriment to other lifeforms. Forcing an armory out is not just a resource tradeoff, but also a tradeoff on a strategic on-ground standpoint for marines fighting against other lifeforms. This is something I often overlook about this strategy. I'd often lack a completely clear perspective of how things happen on the ground in these competitive matches because of the lack of 1st person view on the streams (something I know is coming and am looking forward to)
The only thing that I would respond to that with is: yes, it makes it difficult to fight against other lifeforms, and they can apply some real pressure while you're distracted by the onos and also at a disadvantage against fighting these other lifeforms (because of the armory wall), but none of the lifeforms is effective at seiging a base. Apart from gorges, who just become a target if they start biling unless they're really well defended. As a result, the marines seem to gain a far too effective ability to hold their tech points and choke points (i.e. forward positions like back alley outside locker rooms, and observation, and mezzanine). They can then just wait until they outtech the aliens, and chances are they will. If they have denied the aliens a 3rd hive aswell, they can then win the game from there.
Anyway, the idea about welders was good and should definitely be considered by the devs if the game is to be balanced for the inclusion of armory walling.
<!--quoteo(post=2019315:date=Nov 11 2012, 02:21 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 11 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Armory blocking stops one Onos from ramboing a base or entire team. If you have 2-3 skulks there to help out, the armory will go down in seconds. I see no problem with it as a tactic. It may see "boring" or "lame" for the commander to have a strategic action to stop random players from roflstomping his bases, but NS2 is designed to be fun to play, not fun to watch.
If you think armory blocking is annoying for Oni, imagine how much of a pain it is as a team to have a single unit destroying your bases one by one with no way to impede or combat it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure I said it wasn't fun from both a playing and a watching perspective (at least, this element of the game).
It's a constant cycle that just rinses and repeats
For marines it's:
Shoot the onos from behind cover, and any skulks that come blitzing through. When onos retreats weld the armory.
For aliens it's:
Periodically attack the armory in waves. Even if armory goes down, onos most likely on too too low health and most other lifeforms already cleaned up. Retreat. Armory is rebuilt or rewelded while you're healing. You can mix it up by getting a drifter to increase the attack speed, but that's it I guess.
Onoses can be combatted without armory walls, and the assertion that they aren't is just a testament to the problem with them at the moment (they shouldn't be 'required'). I do however think that they aren't combatable 5 minutes into the game, which is where the problem lies. Onoses are combatable with late game tech though (shotties+gls+flamethrowers, jps, weapons and armour 3). The problem is, marines don't have this 5 minutes into the game yet aliens can get onoses.
<!--quoteo(post=2019343:date=Nov 11 2012, 03:46 AM:name=Kodu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kodu @ Nov 11 2012, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it interesting that you complain about the marines response to a alien strategy. Where in my opinion the early onos is a bit too strong. They endorse its use because if they don't they are at a severe disadvantage ._.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm actually torn about armory blocking in the sense that, I actually prefer the fact it's being used at the moment, if only to balance out the issues of early onos. Without armory blocking, a greater percentage of the games would just turn into an early onos taking the field, and decimating everything, which although I compained about armorywall/onos stalemates, isn't very fun either. My own personal opinion is that the game would be better and more diverse without armory blocking AND early onos (i.e. ability to drop onos eggs from the 2nd hive). That is just a personal opinion though, and I am well aware that there are those who enjoy the inclusion of a walling system in the game (and in fact these people may in fact be in the majority).
I am of the camp that onoses are fairly balanced the way they are (i.e. their power, health, speed and abilities are all fine, maybe some minor tweaking needed but no serious problems). The thing that's unbalanced about them (which I agree with you on and stated in my original post) is how early they can enter the field. This is easily solved by only allowing onos eggs to be dropped on the third hive, and in turn buffing fades to increase their viability for assisting with seiges mid-game.
<!--quoteo(post=2019379:date=Nov 11 2012, 04:59 AM:name=endar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (endar @ Nov 11 2012, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like the onos vs fridge analogy. Imagine an onos vs a 2 tonne metal structure, welded to the ground at multiple points.
Does that help?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what. That makes a lot more sense. That was a bad analogy I guess.
Anyway, I realise that armory walling is probably here to stay. Though I would like to see it's use tweaked abit if it is here to stay (it doesn't sound like the game has been balanced with a walling system in mind, and that the use of walling just happened). Changes like GORGEous's welder idea, or my idea of the charge hit, would be a welcome improvement to better balance gameplay whilst keeping the mechanic in the game.
I remember in a thread a while ago, somebody said that if you don't place armory walls you're a bad comm. Maybe so, considering that you lack the upperhand you would have had if you dont place the armory wall. But i'd like to see something changed so that instead of it being a necessity, it is a decision. I'm all for anything that changes linear gameplay. We don't want this game to be 'onoses vs armory walls', just like we don't want ANY element to be repetitive (e.g. equal viability for different strategies if used smartly, like seeing shift shade and crag hives being used equally as much in competitive matches, or fast hives not always being dropped, or even whips becoming more prevelant). I also remember another thread focused on ns_docking map specific strategies. However, the entire thing mainly consisted of screenshots of where best to place armories. This shouldn't be the main focus of the game when discussing map specific strategy. Sure structure placement is important, but when 90% of it about where you should place your armories, it feels like there's a problem.
Fix early onos egg, increase armory price and adjust marine starting res by that same increase.
But the problem there was that it was blocking not only onos.
In NS2 it mostly affects only onos which is so far ok with the balance the game has now.
May be later on it will be enforced as an exploit in some tournaments.
The armory is ideal for three reasons:
o It's tall
o It heals the person healing it
o It's cheap
Now obviously we wouldn't want to remove the healing of marines from the armory. The first problem is probably fixable with some sort of ease and only becomes an issue in choke points and those are created by the level designers. Imagine when they armory walled in platform (Between Warehouse and Server Room) that those entry ways were much bigger. Or in mezzanine where the one side of the room is a ladder, which makes it suicidal for the onos to come down that side because he cannot get back out.
So the onos problem spawns armory wall "exploits" of level designs. Fixing it will revolve around fixing the onos, but I still feel natural chokepoints will emerge and blocking will always be there.
Again, haven't seen this competitive, but as long as the marines are organized and are able to charge the Onos, it's a waste of resources. [herp derp, blurb about shades.]
Again, haven't seen this competitive, but as long as the marines are organized and are able to charge the Onos, it's a waste of resources. I feel that if Alien commanders realized the resources they have available to them, the 2nd hive Onos wouldn't exist. Hell, we'd probably see more Shade Hives as a 1st or 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
shade hives. I think you posted in the wrong forum.
In hindsight, I didn't realize this was the comp play forum. But even if we lop off the bit about shade hives, <i>an inexperienced team of marines</i> are able to hold their ground against a few experienced onos, and watch over their RT's. To me that punches a hole in the 2-hive-onos rush.
Shoot the onos from behind cover, and any skulks that come blitzing through. When onos retreats weld the armory.
For aliens it's:
Periodically attack the armory in waves. Even if armory goes down, onos most likely on too too low health and most other lifeforms already cleaned up. Retreat. Armory is rebuilt or rewelded while you're healing. You can mix it up by getting a drifter to increase the attack speed, but that's it I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I share the same point of view... Players' main error will be to mainly focus on the onos, if 2/3 skulks pop in the back the marines will be in trouble.
I wouldn't change anything however in FFA it can be annoying. I've been in a game where the commander built 9 armories (3 by 3 so 3 walls) just because they knew they would lose (skulks were amazing at that time).
No offense intended, but if you were able to hold them off, they weren't experienced Oni.
I do have to admit, the idea of making charge do high building damage sounds pretty neat :)
Again, haven't seen this competitive, but as long as the marines are organized and are able to charge the Onos, it's a waste of resources. [herp derp, blurb about shades.]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes 5 Marines to fire ~2 volleys of Rifle to kill 1 Onos. It takes Onos 1 hit with Charge or Two hits to kill a Marine.
You do the math :D If that Onos is anywhere near Marines, they are dead and the DPS is going way down. 2 Onos and you basically don't have a chance without jetpacks.