It may be stupid but what other strategy is legitimately viable for aliens? Expansion for lots of res nodes sure as hell isnt viable, a good marine team will slaughter the harvesters before they pay for themselves+the cysts, that leaves fast hive and close RTs (usually 3, 2 base RTs and the 1 between the 2 hives). From here what do you do? Previously it was get leap and hold out for fade, but fade is so pathetic now this isnt viable. You could try rush bilebomb+leap and get some early base pressure but at this point in the game Id expect marines to be A1W1 so with no upgrades you are cannonfodder in an attack...
I wouldnt onos drop if i could do something else. Its like complaining marines always place PGs early on, why? Because its simply the best way to play
I really dont know why people think you can fix the problem with changing some numbers. If you delay the onos by increasing its cost or hive maturation time it still is the best alien strategy, just 2 minutes later. Alien gameplay mechanics need a serious rework so that aliens can compete with the marines the first 10 minutes without the onos.
My agenda would be: -Fix or replace broken/useless traits like camo/hypermutation/feign death -more rewarding skulk movement (walljumps etc...) -vertical shadowstep, old blink momentum for fade (also there is sometimes a swipe delay after you leave blink, needs to be fixed) -rework of alien spawn system, rfd system (add rfk system) -aliens immobility compared to marines -make alien harassment viable again (armories should not restore armor) -rework of the alien commander interface to promote bonewall, rapture etc. -make abilities of shades/crags/whips/shifts more viable (at the moment aliens just spend resources for hives, harversters, t2 abilities, traits and lifeforms) -lerk still needs some love (spores are useless against shotguns)
BiteyJoin Date: 2012-05-06Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
Are you forgetting about nutrient mist? That's a 3 res investment to speed up the process of maturing a structure, for 3 res it would crank the hive up to full pretty fast. On 3 Rts, you could cast that pretty easily and delay the onos only by several small chips of 6 seconds.
The better solution would be forcing a tech path to get to the onos, either by first requiring two hives. Then requiring two mature hives, then a 20-50res hive upgrade taking a set amount of time(For droping onos-fade eggs), and time needed for the onos. That would slow down the Onos to the field while also providing what could be considered a 4th tech path towards lifeform drops.
It's more to do with the lacking power of upgrades, fades, and other lifeforms that make the onos so appealing. Anothe suggestion is that ontop of taking a reblance like this, you'd need to considered raising the effectiveness of upgrades on all of the hive types and adding small buffs to justify potenttially dropping other unit-lifeforms. It's not just one side of the alien gameplay that's semi-bad it's all of it. Onos is the safe and sure investment to make the marines start sweating, so untill a few of the other alien sided units-things get buffed it still might be the only viable tactic to charge for.
PS. Buffs for other stuff to come in another threat :P
<!--quoteo(post=2020668:date=Nov 12 2012, 12:28 PM:name=Bitey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bitey @ Nov 12 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you forgetting about nutrient mist? That's a 3 res investment to speed up the process of maturing a structure, for 3 res it would crank the hive up to full pretty fast. On 3 Rts, you could cast that pretty easily and delay the onos only by several small chips of 6 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all no i didnt forget about mist, Its one the reasons i like the maturation requirement idea (it gives an option and tactical choice to the commander). Second the effectiveness of mist on a hive dosnt have to be as high and the time to maturation could be something like 8 minutes if need be.
With an 8 minute mature hive your looking at the first tres onos at around 10 minutes... but If the commmander wants to blow say 24 res on mists maybe he can cut that time in half and get a Tres onos on the field at the 8 minute mark..... In either of these 2 cases the onos still takes more then the 6 min and in order to get it in 8 minutes the com has to give up the equivilant res for leap....
As far as being confusing, well i have faith in our fellow gamers... I mean they are playing NS which is a relativity complex game and while new coms may not understand at first new comms arnt the ones dropping onos eggs (they are the ones dropping 3-4 whips at 5 minuts)... Besides many other structures (whip/shade/shift) have maturation requirements for abilities so the precedence already exists.
Please don't link lifeforms other than the onos to hive maturation, it would make early tech strats meaningless and worsen the already terrible 1 hive being terrible situation that alien players have to deal with.
Linking Tres lifeform cost to # of mature hives would make more sense imo. At least having more lifeform diversity lategame and giving commanders more incentive to spend Tres on lifeforms would make alien and khammander play more interesting. Almost like how commanders had to choose which guns they wanted for marines in NS1 which is an idea some people still like I believe.
<!--quoteo(post=2020718:date=Nov 12 2012, 01:20 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 12 2012, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is what happens when you continue to stack upon poor game design<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a bit harsh, while I would have preferred a NS1 update, this was their chance to take it to a new level(whether that level is a step up or down we will have to wait and see)
<!--quoteo(post=2020572:date=Nov 12 2012, 12:06 PM:name=Rowen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rowen @ Nov 12 2012, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd find more logical to make egg dropping possible when one of the players actually evolves into that lifeform first with pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^ This! I can't understand why so many people come up with bad unintuitive ideas and can't read the simple ones.
<u><b>1 Player needs to evolve to a life form from personal resources, before the commander can drop it too.</b></u> And BAM! All problems solved.<ul><li>There is no problem like a weak onos.</li><li>There is no problem like a 3rd hive requirement would introduce.</li><li>It is way more easy to communicate to a player (by tooltip on the com-display) and therefor more intuitive than binding it to 1 matured or 2 unmatured hives or 2 matured hives...</li><li>It wouldn't forbid onos spam that many people seem to need to end the game / take a 3rd hive.</li></ul> It really just counters the early t-res onos. And this is the problem talked about here. Don't bring up other problems that evolve around it. (Aliens are to weak early game. Yes, there is another thread for this. But needing an onos to stand competitive as alien would be bad game design and no excuse to hold onto the damn 4-6min onos mechanic. Buffing the aliens in early game is the solution to that. Not an endgame unit at 4 or 6 minutes.)
<!--quoteo(post=2020754:date=Nov 12 2012, 02:55 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Nov 12 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ This! I can't understand why so many people come up with bad unintuitive ideas and can't read the simple ones.
<u><b>1 Player needs to evolve to a life form from personal resources, before the commander can drop it too.</b></u> And BAM! All problems solved.<ul><li>There is no problem like a weak onos.</li><li>There is no problem like a 3rd hive requirement would introduce.</li><li>It is way more easy to communicate to a player (by tooltip on the com-display) and therefor more intuitive than binding it to 1 matured or 2 unmatured hives or 2 matured hives...</li><li>It wouldn't forbid onos spam that many people seem to need to end the game / take a 3rd hive.</li></ul> It really just counters the early t-res onos. And this is the problem talked about here. Don't bring up other problems that evolve around it. (Aliens are to weak early game. Yes, there is another thread for this. But needing an onos to stand competitive as alien would be bad game design and no excuse to hold onto the damn 4-6min onos mechanic. Buffing the aliens in early game is the solution to that. Not an endgame unit at 4 or 6 minutes.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple is good, but simple isnt strategy if you were to tie egg drop to player evolutions you remove a possible onos or fade rush... Rushing onos should be a possible and viable tactic BUT it should not be as simple/easy as it is now. Alien commander needs more depth not less
To this end I have expanded/refined my suggestion and posted it in the suggestion forum
This post was meant to show that a 4 minute onos was possible not to introduce ways to fix it (other wise i would have posted it under "ideas and suggestions")
<!--quoteo(post=2020722:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:25 AM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 12 2012, 09:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a bit harsh, while I would have preferred a NS1 update, this was their chance to take it to a new level(whether that level is a step up or down we will have to wait and see)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Harsh is all he knows.
I have to agree with a lot of people here. the problem isnt 5 min onos, the problem is that there is no other appealing or viable strat. Fades suck, lerks are useless without gas (and imo even with, having to fly into the enemy to gas them is just ridiculous) If fade is returned to its former glory and a viable life form at H1, 5 minute onos would dissapear.
just my opinion
PD: I may have been a bit harsh on the lerk there, lerks are alright, as long as you have about 10 minutes to spike a structure unbothered.
Nah. The onos doesn't scale. Marines do. This makes him more powerful the sooner he hits the field. And he can appear so soon, that all other life forms can't compete with this. There simply needs to be a cap to the earliest time the onos can appear. And this is simply possible by restricting the com dropped eggs, that one player needs to evolve to this life form via his personal res.
This takes no real options from the com away. It just takes a horribly unbalanced option away. And just because aliens struggle in early game, is no justification to keep this bad mechanic in for balance reasons. It would be much better to buff skulk and fade and restrict the onos to the actual p-res-timings like it was before.
I like the elegance of maX's proposal to link egg drops with hive maturity but GORGEous is bang on - the current pro strategy is an immediate hive drop followed by harvesters, so by the time you've accumulated your 75 Tres your hives are matured and ready to go. Still have the 6 minute Onos.
I think Eißfeldt nails it pretty well - the pro teams go for the Onos drop because it's the best strategy to push back on the marine strategy, which is to keep the aliens ground down until marine tech is sufficiently advanced to seal the deal. Fixing the early Onos is more about fixing the aliens generally, so there are more viable strategies. I think the main problem there is fixing it in such a way that works for both the competitive scene and the pub scene. Any change you make in the one seems to dramatically affect the other.
<!--quoteo(post=2020853:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:28 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Nov 13 2012, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah. The onos doesn't scale. Marines do. This makes him more powerful the sooner he hits the field. And he can appear so soon, that all other life forms can't compete with this. There simply needs to be a cap to the earliest time the onos can appear. And this is simply possible by restricting the com dropped eggs, that one player needs to evolve to this life form via his personal res.
This takes no real options from the com away. It just takes a horribly unbalanced option away. And just because aliens struggle in early game, is no justification to keep this bad mechanic in for balance reasons. It would be much better to buff skulk and fade and restrict the onos to the actual p-res-timings like it was before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't want to see the 2 hive tres onos build completely broken, aliens just need alternatives. If there were a clear way for marines to tech towards countering it if scouted that'd be cool too. Like, if your marines see a fast hive and no upgrades you could beeline jetpacks? My understanding is currently that timing is hard to get before the onos is out (I can do it in pubs because pub commanders are usually slower) but that could change? This is a complex problem I guess, people who know more about it than I do are working on it though.
<!--quoteo(post=2020954:date=Nov 12 2012, 06:08 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Nov 12 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the elegance of maX's proposal to link egg drops with hive maturity but GORGEous is bang on - the current pro strategy is an immediate hive drop followed by harvesters, so by the time you've accumulated your 75 Tres your hives are matured and ready to go. Still have the 6 minute Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would only be true if they kept maturation time at 3min.... a bump from 3min to 8 min would push onos to 10 minutes unless you spent res on misting to try and get it faster...
I guess I'm the only person who thinks egg drops as a mechanic are bad? Tres is for team purchases and Pres is for lifeforms; Oni don't scale up with team size, and you shouldn't be buying them with Team Resources. If you want to convert Tres to Pres, expand your turf and build more harvesters.
I'm not entirely happy with the notion of the khammander being able to drop eggs, but I understand why it's there as the game currently stands. Much like marines can (theoretically) come back with 1 RT, a robo factory and ARCs, I think egg drops are supposed to (asymmetrically) mirror the same ability.
I would be happy to go back in time a few builds where egg drops came out of personal res (assuming com pres was brough back) in addition hypermutation would need to come back as well....
<!--quoteo(post=2020754:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:55 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Nov 12 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ This! I can't understand why so many people come up with bad unintuitive ideas and can't read the simple ones.
<u><b>1 Player needs to evolve to a life form from personal resources, before the commander can drop it too.</b></u> And BAM! All problems solved.<ul><li>There is no problem like a weak onos.</li><li>There is no problem like a 3rd hive requirement would introduce.</li><li>It is way more easy to communicate to a player (by tooltip on the com-display) and therefor more intuitive than binding it to 1 matured or 2 unmatured hives or 2 matured hives...</li><li>It wouldn't forbid onos spam that many people seem to need to end the game / take a 3rd hive.</li></ul> It really just counters the early t-res onos. And this is the problem talked about here. Don't bring up other problems that evolve around it. (Aliens are to weak early game. Yes, there is another thread for this. But needing an onos to stand competitive as alien would be bad game design and no excuse to hold onto the damn 4-6min onos mechanic. Buffing the aliens in early game is the solution to that. Not an endgame unit at 4 or 6 minutes.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said this aswell, but people seem to like late game tech appearing early.
Personally I think its a nice compromise to the removal of tres/pres split. Edit: Although I am all for simply removing commander drops using tres and restoring commander earning his own pres.
If you are going to make the Onos harder to get then you also need to make the phase gate more costlier. The Marines can get it so early and lock down an entire area with it making early Onos the only viable way to push in.
<!--quoteo(post=2020465:date=Nov 12 2012, 06:45 AM:name=BeerTent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BeerTent @ Nov 12 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO, Onos is really only a game-ender when he's got Stomp. Otherwise, 4-5 marines with LMG's can reduce him to a kill 1 marine and flee unit, if not a dead one. You don't even need to be organized.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that poses other problems. It takes the entire team to focus the onos down. So whilst the onos is harassing a base the marines need to be in that base to defend it. Whilst the entire alien team and com is free to do what ever the hell they want. Once an alien team gets an onos who knows when to retreat to save his evolution, aliens pretty much gain map control and it's over. If marines have t3 weapons and armour and welders, that "gg" might just take a little longer.
Frankly the idea of Onos drops offends me. Players evolving into "higher" evolutions should be rewarded for understanding each evolution and how to play well. It's a personal issue. Dropping eggs is just a crotch for bad players. Nobody is learning how to play alien and this is one of the reasons why A) they don't have to learn if their com just lets them evolve to easier evolutions off team res (which is easy when the alien com dictates map control as opposed to marines where players dictate map control and thus resource flow) and B) 3 out of 4 players want to play marine (because shoot and kill is easier or at the very least, simpler).
<!--quoteo(post=2020814:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:38 AM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 12 2012, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simple is good, but simple isnt strategy if you were to tie egg drop to player evolutions you remove a possible onos or fade rush... Rushing onos should be a possible and viable tactic BUT it should not be as simple/easy as it is now. Alien commander needs more depth not less
To this end I have expanded/refined my suggestion and posted it in the suggestion forum
This post was meant to show that a 4 minute onos was possible not to introduce ways to fix it (other wise i would have posted it under "ideas and suggestions")<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the onos remains as powerful as it currently is at hive 2 tech then it shouldn't be a strategy at all. The onos coming out so quickly and at full strength on 2 hives is what causes the entire problem. I don't think that an 8m onos for 25 extra tres is in any way going to solve this problem. It's far more in depth than simply slowing down the onos or increasing its cost. Doing either of things is just going to extend the marine's "win before onos" window. It should be removed from the possibility of early game (I'm saying <10-15m here) all together.
No one points out the point about this thread is the second HIVE drop.
If UWE can make that hive viable in either direction from spawn, yup, we have a strat game.
Otherwise we have 'Z' ... remember that guys/girls? WHY wasa this a 'bad' game?
And, er, why do Marines get a pseudo bulding shadow when the more likely to be technologically able to aliens don't? Didnt aliens just W R E K marines to the point where we actually can play this game fair like? Asymmetry aside, Aliens, SHADOW building, yup ...
<!--quoteo(post=2020972:date=Nov 12 2012, 06:29 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 12 2012, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess I'm the only person who thinks egg drops as a mechanic are bad?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the whole res model is quite clunky and is going to set up some severe challenges for the future development both in balancing and strategical development. For example the pres lifeforms are nerfed to oblivion right now, most games seem to be decided before the pres explosion even kicks in.
However, since the alpha/beta is over, it's probably more likely that we'll have to live with the system we've got here. At that point it's just better to start figuring out how to make something out of the pieces you've got.
Also Onos hit-range has to be reduced drastically. And the colission exclusions/exclusion zones have to be addressed. Onos can hit the guy through the sealing/vent (unless he is out of range at that point, but again - the range is huge with onos hits...) is ridiculousness.
You can't really counter the onos with the JP's, as it just smashes them wherever they go. May be excluding Veil - Cargo hive...
How i feel as a marine. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHUhcV2eVY#t=1m42s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHUhcV2eVY#t=1m42s</a>
I have won 4/5 with fast onos. The one I lost I accidently upgraded hive to vail and onos didnt last long. This better thab my win/loss as marine comm.
You cant drop dual exo as marines. Also if they were to nerf it, require two types of evolve upgrades before you can drop the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2022193:date=Nov 13 2012, 08:34 AM:name={LoC}Blue_Leader)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({LoC}Blue_Leader @ Nov 13 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We need to find the quickest Onos drop possible! Let's go for 2 minutes!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's impossible, i think around 3min is max due hive's slow construction.
this is possible in the map where is lavafalls ( don't remember the name ) you can have double res nodes almost instantly, have gorge there to help them build, have second gorge to walk towards turbine, plant harvest along the way and in to the turbine, after harvesters are fast build with gorges, gorges go to turbine and help hive to grow, you can have onos around 3min that way, it's un upgrade though, but marines usually have weapons0 by that time, and with so many harvesters you can have that onos in full strength within 1.5 minute, so 4:30 is the max time you can have full combat ready onos with cara / cele, and after that you can just spam onos eggs if you manage to keep the resource nodes.
Comments
I wouldnt onos drop if i could do something else. Its like complaining marines always place PGs early on, why? Because its simply the best way to play
My agenda would be:
-Fix or replace broken/useless traits like camo/hypermutation/feign death
-more rewarding skulk movement (walljumps etc...)
-vertical shadowstep, old blink momentum for fade (also there is sometimes a swipe delay after you leave blink, needs to be fixed)
-rework of alien spawn system, rfd system (add rfk system)
-aliens immobility compared to marines
-make alien harassment viable again (armories should not restore armor)
-rework of the alien commander interface to promote bonewall, rapture etc.
-make abilities of shades/crags/whips/shifts more viable (at the moment aliens just spend resources for hives, harversters, t2 abilities, traits and lifeforms)
-lerk still needs some love (spores are useless against shotguns)
useless?
The better solution would be forcing a tech path to get to the onos, either by first requiring two hives. Then requiring two mature hives, then a 20-50res hive upgrade taking a set amount of time(For droping onos-fade eggs), and time needed for the onos. That would slow down the Onos to the field while also providing what could be considered a 4th tech path towards lifeform drops.
It's more to do with the lacking power of upgrades, fades, and other lifeforms that make the onos so appealing. Anothe suggestion is that ontop of taking a reblance like this, you'd need to considered raising the effectiveness of upgrades on all of the hive types and adding small buffs to justify potenttially dropping other unit-lifeforms. It's not just one side of the alien gameplay that's semi-bad it's all of it. Onos is the safe and sure investment to make the marines start sweating, so untill a few of the other alien sided units-things get buffed it still might be the only viable tactic to charge for.
PS. Buffs for other stuff to come in another threat :P
First of all no i didnt forget about mist, Its one the reasons i like the maturation requirement idea (it gives an option and tactical choice to the commander). Second the effectiveness of mist on a hive dosnt have to be as high and the time to maturation could be something like 8 minutes if need be.
With an 8 minute mature hive your looking at the first tres onos at around 10 minutes... but If the commmander wants to blow say 24 res on mists maybe he can cut that time in half and get a Tres onos on the field at the 8 minute mark..... In either of these 2 cases the onos still takes more then the 6 min and in order to get it in 8 minutes the com has to give up the equivilant res for leap....
As far as being confusing, well i have faith in our fellow gamers... I mean they are playing NS which is a relativity complex game and while new coms may not understand at first new comms arnt the ones dropping onos eggs (they are the ones dropping 3-4 whips at 5 minuts)... Besides many other structures (whip/shade/shift) have maturation requirements for abilities so the precedence already exists.
Linking Tres lifeform cost to # of mature hives would make more sense imo. At least having more lifeform diversity lategame and giving commanders more incentive to spend Tres on lifeforms would make alien and khammander play more interesting. Almost like how commanders had to choose which guns they wanted for marines in NS1 which is an idea some people still like I believe.
This is a bit harsh, while I would have preferred a NS1 update, this was their chance to take it to a new level(whether that level is a step up or down we will have to wait and see)
^ This! I can't understand why so many people come up with bad unintuitive ideas and can't read the simple ones.
<u><b>1 Player needs to evolve to a life form from personal resources, before the commander can drop it too.</b></u>
And BAM! All problems solved.<ul><li>There is no problem like a weak onos.</li><li>There is no problem like a 3rd hive requirement would introduce.</li><li>It is way more easy to communicate to a player (by tooltip on the com-display) and therefor more intuitive than binding it to 1 matured or 2 unmatured hives or 2 matured hives...</li><li>It wouldn't forbid onos spam that many people seem to need to end the game / take a 3rd hive.</li></ul>
It really just counters the early t-res onos. And this is the problem talked about here. Don't bring up other problems that evolve around it. (Aliens are to weak early game. Yes, there is another thread for this. But needing an onos to stand competitive as alien would be bad game design and no excuse to hold onto the damn 4-6min onos mechanic. Buffing the aliens in early game is the solution to that. Not an endgame unit at 4 or 6 minutes.)
<u><b>1 Player needs to evolve to a life form from personal resources, before the commander can drop it too.</b></u>
And BAM! All problems solved.<ul><li>There is no problem like a weak onos.</li><li>There is no problem like a 3rd hive requirement would introduce.</li><li>It is way more easy to communicate to a player (by tooltip on the com-display) and therefor more intuitive than binding it to 1 matured or 2 unmatured hives or 2 matured hives...</li><li>It wouldn't forbid onos spam that many people seem to need to end the game / take a 3rd hive.</li></ul>
It really just counters the early t-res onos. And this is the problem talked about here. Don't bring up other problems that evolve around it. (Aliens are to weak early game. Yes, there is another thread for this. But needing an onos to stand competitive as alien would be bad game design and no excuse to hold onto the damn 4-6min onos mechanic. Buffing the aliens in early game is the solution to that. Not an endgame unit at 4 or 6 minutes.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple is good, but simple isnt strategy if you were to tie egg drop to player evolutions you remove a possible onos or fade rush... Rushing onos should be a possible and viable tactic BUT it should not be as simple/easy as it is now. Alien commander needs more depth not less
To this end I have expanded/refined my suggestion and posted it in the suggestion forum
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124316" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124316</a>
This post was meant to show that a 4 minute onos was possible not to introduce ways to fix it (other wise i would have posted it under "ideas and suggestions")
Harsh is all he knows.
I have to agree with a lot of people here. the problem isnt 5 min onos, the problem is that there is no other appealing or viable strat. Fades suck, lerks are useless without gas (and imo even with, having to fly into the enemy to gas them is just ridiculous) If fade is returned to its former glory and a viable life form at H1, 5 minute onos would dissapear.
just my opinion
PD: I may have been a bit harsh on the lerk there, lerks are alright, as long as you have about 10 minutes to spike a structure unbothered.
This takes no real options from the com away. It just takes a horribly unbalanced option away. And just because aliens struggle in early game, is no justification to keep this bad mechanic in for balance reasons. It would be much better to buff skulk and fade and restrict the onos to the actual p-res-timings like it was before.
I think Eißfeldt nails it pretty well - the pro teams go for the Onos drop because it's the best strategy to push back on the marine strategy, which is to keep the aliens ground down until marine tech is sufficiently advanced to seal the deal. Fixing the early Onos is more about fixing the aliens generally, so there are more viable strategies. I think the main problem there is fixing it in such a way that works for both the competitive scene and the pub scene. Any change you make in the one seems to dramatically affect the other.
This takes no real options from the com away. It just takes a horribly unbalanced option away. And just because aliens struggle in early game, is no justification to keep this bad mechanic in for balance reasons. It would be much better to buff skulk and fade and restrict the onos to the actual p-res-timings like it was before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't want to see the 2 hive tres onos build completely broken, aliens just need alternatives. If there were a clear way for marines to tech towards countering it if scouted that'd be cool too. Like, if your marines see a fast hive and no upgrades you could beeline jetpacks? My understanding is currently that timing is hard to get before the onos is out (I can do it in pubs because pub commanders are usually slower) but that could change? This is a complex problem I guess, people who know more about it than I do are working on it though.
This would only be true if they kept maturation time at 3min.... a bump from 3min to 8 min would push onos to 10 minutes unless you spent res on misting to try and get it faster...
<u><b>1 Player needs to evolve to a life form from personal resources, before the commander can drop it too.</b></u>
And BAM! All problems solved.<ul><li>There is no problem like a weak onos.</li><li>There is no problem like a 3rd hive requirement would introduce.</li><li>It is way more easy to communicate to a player (by tooltip on the com-display) and therefor more intuitive than binding it to 1 matured or 2 unmatured hives or 2 matured hives...</li><li>It wouldn't forbid onos spam that many people seem to need to end the game / take a 3rd hive.</li></ul>
It really just counters the early t-res onos. And this is the problem talked about here. Don't bring up other problems that evolve around it. (Aliens are to weak early game. Yes, there is another thread for this. But needing an onos to stand competitive as alien would be bad game design and no excuse to hold onto the damn 4-6min onos mechanic. Buffing the aliens in early game is the solution to that. Not an endgame unit at 4 or 6 minutes.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said this aswell, but people seem to like late game tech appearing early.
Personally I think its a nice compromise to the removal of tres/pres split. Edit: Although I am all for simply removing commander drops using tres and restoring commander earning his own pres.
But that poses other problems. It takes the entire team to focus the onos down. So whilst the onos is harassing a base the marines need to be in that base to defend it. Whilst the entire alien team and com is free to do what ever the hell they want. Once an alien team gets an onos who knows when to retreat to save his evolution, aliens pretty much gain map control and it's over. If marines have t3 weapons and armour and welders, that "gg" might just take a little longer.
Frankly the idea of Onos drops offends me. Players evolving into "higher" evolutions should be rewarded for understanding each evolution and how to play well. It's a personal issue. Dropping eggs is just a crotch for bad players. Nobody is learning how to play alien and this is one of the reasons why A) they don't have to learn if their com just lets them evolve to easier evolutions off team res (which is easy when the alien com dictates map control as opposed to marines where players dictate map control and thus resource flow) and B) 3 out of 4 players want to play marine (because shoot and kill is easier or at the very least, simpler).
To this end I have expanded/refined my suggestion and posted it in the suggestion forum
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124316" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124316</a>
This post was meant to show that a 4 minute onos was possible not to introduce ways to fix it (other wise i would have posted it under "ideas and suggestions")<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the onos remains as powerful as it currently is at hive 2 tech then it shouldn't be a strategy at all. The onos coming out so quickly and at full strength on 2 hives is what causes the entire problem. I don't think that an 8m onos for 25 extra tres is in any way going to solve this problem. It's far more in depth than simply slowing down the onos or increasing its cost. Doing either of things is just going to extend the marine's "win before onos" window. It should be removed from the possibility of early game (I'm saying <10-15m here) all together.
If UWE can make that hive viable in either direction from spawn, yup, we have a strat game.
Otherwise we have 'Z' ... remember that guys/girls? WHY wasa this a 'bad' game?
And, er, why do Marines get a pseudo bulding shadow when the more likely to be technologically able to aliens don't? Didnt aliens just W R E K marines to the point where we actually can play this game fair like? Asymmetry aside, Aliens, SHADOW building, yup ...
I think the whole res model is quite clunky and is going to set up some severe challenges for the future development both in balancing and strategical development. For example the pres lifeforms are nerfed to oblivion right now, most games seem to be decided before the pres explosion even kicks in.
However, since the alpha/beta is over, it's probably more likely that we'll have to live with the system we've got here. At that point it's just better to start figuring out how to make something out of the pieces you've got.
And the colission exclusions/exclusion zones have to be addressed. Onos can hit the guy through the sealing/vent (unless he is out of range at that point, but again - the range is huge with onos hits...) is ridiculousness.
You can't really counter the onos with the JP's, as it just smashes them wherever they go. May be excluding Veil - Cargo hive...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHUhcV2eVY#t=1m42s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHUhcV2eVY#t=1m42s</a>
You cant drop dual exo as marines. Also if they were to nerf it, require two types of evolve upgrades before you can drop the hive.
it's impossible, i think around 3min is max due hive's slow construction.
this is possible in the map where is lavafalls ( don't remember the name ) you can have double res nodes almost instantly, have gorge there to help them build, have second gorge to walk towards turbine, plant harvest along the way and in to the turbine, after harvesters are fast build with gorges, gorges go to turbine and help hive to grow, you can have onos around 3min that way, it's un upgrade though, but marines usually have weapons0 by that time, and with so many harvesters you can have that onos in full strength within 1.5 minute, so 4:30 is the max time you can have full combat ready onos with cara / cele, and after that you can just spam onos eggs if you manage to keep the resource nodes.