While I don't agree with you, I like your inviting writing style. You make it very clear to everyone that you are talking about your opinion and your game experience ("<u><b>I</b></u> don't like alien commander") while refraining from broad generalizations or insults (example? "NS2's alien commander is a piece of ######, UWE are lazy tards and everybody who disagrees with me is a moron!!!").
So, here we go: <!--quoteo(post=2020749:date=Nov 12 2012, 02:53 PM:name=dota girl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dota girl @ Nov 12 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My biggest issue with it is that it's boring, and many facets of alien gameplay have been rendered completely unintuitive simply to justify there being a commander. Researching abilities, researching uprades, cyst chains, none of these really improve the game at all, they seem only to exist so the commander has something to do. As if the game was pulled apart and redesigned to fit around the commander role, not because the commander role seemed like a natural fit for aliens or the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are really talking about "natural fits" in something as artificial as a video game with made-up rules? Balancing an asymmetrical game like StarCraft is a neverending job that will only get harder when you add new elements to the equation. Look at the patch history of that game... it's amazing how much it changed, especially with the BroodWar expansion... there is no "done".
Anyway. You got a point when you say that NS2 was redesigned around a hitherto new alien commander. Sure, there wasn't one before. And I can very well remember the screaming rage in my ears when some (maybe not even purposefully griefing) NS1 gorge dared to drop a sensory chamber first... Sacrificing one's own resources so the team can have that 2nd hive is a hard sell that will be even harder on public servers with today's Call of Duty, Battlefield and Counter-Strike audiences...
I like the invention of the NS2 alien comm. I think it was a good idea and I tend to stay busy during the whole game... but that's just me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the handful of games I've played alien commander I've felt redundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know that you can jump out and maybe give your assault force the deciding upper hand when they need it? Then you return and spend the saved up res. If that isn't dynamic and interesting, I don't know what is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I drop nodes, and if we hold them I research things, typically in a set order, like celerity, hive, leap, carapace but the order really doesn't matter, and eventually I'll be researching everything worthwhile within a matter of minutes regardless of what I go with first or last.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you consider that when you are the all-seeing eye above the battlefield it is your job as the hivemind to pass on your superior intel to your teammates? You can see and hear marines (those wobbling black shades) even if you don't have a drifter or teammate in that room. I repeat: You are crucial. Provided, of course, you got a team that's neither deaf or unresponsive... A NS1 gorge on the ground could never fill that role of passing useful directions when his nose is stuck in the ground and his event horizon being the next corner.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Between that and fixing cyst chains I don't have any resources to do anything else. If we are really winning and have a huge node lead I can build support structures for people, but generally it's all kind of pointless, we've already won. I don't even have to talk, I may as well be an automaton while they play the game. If they keep the marines out of our side of the map we win, if not we lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, the marines aren't putting up much of a fight when your team steamrolls all over them. These games are boring, even if you are on the winning side. No challenge = boring. Agreed.
But if the marines get their act together... some ninja commando finds your hidden spot where you keep all your fancy expensive upgrades or constantly interrupt your most crucial cyst chains or suddenly sneak into your most remote hive and shoot all the eggs there and the tension rises... what do you do then? Is that also boring?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's ultimately my problem with alien comm, the games are decided largely without your input so long as you understand to press buttons to get upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Come on! You are trying to joke by exaggeration here, right? If it <i>really </i>would be insta-win-button-simple, the aliens should win every game, because even the unfittest khamm could not ###### it up even if you wanted to.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Meanwhile you have one less alien player because the opportunities to leave the hive are rare until much later when everything is researched, unlike with a permanent or temporary gorge player who is an active participant. Yes I can direct people, and I do if the team isn't communicating, but it's not nearly as important as with marine comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. The marine comm is much more crucial to the survival and supply of the marines. For the rest, see my suggestion above. I don't see why you should stay inside that hive all game and never go out...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe instead of jacking creep from SC2 they should have taken the queen or something? An active role that is above gorges and drops hives/chambers etc. You'd still have to fix gorges though. I would love to be a queen someday<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And so NS2 became not only a male, but also a female power fantasy :)
I played NS1 a lot several years ago, and was very surprised when I bought NS2 that the aliens have a commander. I don't like the concept of that. I liked playing gorge and I feel somewhat useless now that I can't build useful structures anymore. Maybe I'm not used to it, but it doesn't seem as fun with an alien commander.
I do like the concept of aliens being commander-less and decentralized, but I don't agree that the alien comm experience itself is lacking or simple. It might seem that way at first, but when you factor in support structures and all their abilities, cystsploding, drifters, and all the different things you can do with your team if you work with them, I think there's still a ton to learn and to develop.
Kham is alright...it could be better though. We need to accept there is going to be an alien commander in NS2.
What sold me on the kham initially was the whole "cosmic gardener". However right now as Khamm I feel more like the designated egg maker and automated research button pusher. The focus should more on the support structures and less on the research button pressing...like originally intended.
Right now cysts are a pain, and support structures are too expensive to bother, mostly because you need that res for research abilities and eggs (onos). Support structure can too easily be squashed by grenades and other means, so the cost to set up are not justified.
I'll also +1 zek and agree that abilities and upgrades should be tied to the hive number and type. Give the research structures another job. Frees up res for gardening. Hiding the trait structures in a corner somewhere does a disservice to their good looking models. Use them instead to expand on the cosmic gardener theme.
Make alien gardening less of a pain with more options and flexibility. Give aliens more tech options from the start of the game, but still allow clear progression into stronger tech latter in game. Do this.. <ul><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--></li><li>Allow all 3 support structure to be available at the start of the game (yea, shade, shift and crag). However only their passive ability is available initially. Their activated ability is only available once the appropriate hive type is made. This gives kham more support options at the start of the game. </li><li>Make cysts chains an option, but a worthwhile option. Instead of requiring infestation, all structures can be built anywhere, but with some trickiness. Structures not on infestation or connected to the cyst chain (more on this later), don't build automatically and don't auto regen. They require a gorge to build and build slower than normal. Add to that, all structures can act as their own cyst node. So a harvester can act as part of the cyst chain. Plus a structure thats part of a cyst chain can autobuild. Once built they create their own infestation as a cyst does, and autoregen normally. Structures placed on existing infestation act as they do now. Together all this would lessen the need for cyst spam. </li><li>The cysts themselves could afford a little more thought about their placement. They need some strategic meat. Mature cysts could act as seeds for support structures. Basically a kham places the structures over a mature cyst and it replace the cysts. Lets say by doing this (instead of placing them without a mature cyst) the cost of the structure is reduced by 50%. So a crag costs 5 res instead of 10 res doing it like this. This allows for the effective reduction of support structure price without allowing rampant spamming due to low costs. Coincidentally, using mist to speed up a cyst to maturity as quickly as possible cost 5 res (cyst + 2 mists). Upgrading the 3rd ability needs a plain cost reduction...15 res is kinda ridiculous right now. However the suggested removal of requiring the kham to spend res on abilities could justify the 15 res. Since the cysts are replaced in process this would lessen server load to a degree as there is no net gain of structures. Less cysts over all. </li><li> Use current trait structures (not for traits ...leave that to the hives) for expanded cosmic gardening fun. You can can go about this in many different ways. One way that I think is pretty rad is for a mature cysts to be upgraded into one of the 3 (shell, spur, veil) for 1 or so res. Addtionnal benefits: it reduces cyst numbers, there is no net gain of structures (reducing server laod) and it gives mature cysts something to do. These can act as mini support structures emitting a similar passive ability as their bigger brothers or a 50-75% version of it. A full, 100% version can be unlocked if the respective hive type is built. They only have the passive and not the targeted or activated abilities. Walking in the infestation will look more like a garden and less like buggers with orange balls.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=2021252:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:39 PM:name=biz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biz @ Nov 12 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i step out and fight a lot when i comm aliens
but sometimes people see the 'commander needed' message and get in the chair and build 20 shells or 10 whips<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, a commander who jumped out of the hive (or comm station) should keep his commander status for a while (unless he dies or someone else starts commanding). The "commander needed" message pops up to early.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balancing an asymmetrical game like StarCraft is a neverending job that will only get harder when you add new elements to the equation. Look at the patch history of that game... it's amazing how much it changed, especially with the BroodWar expansion... there is no "done".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually this guy went through the patch notes and found the contrary; there was only a few balance patches and then Broodwar went into 10 years of professional balanced games:
But it seems it's due to a miracle, so I guess it doesn't count:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you guys under stand what balance is. SC2 isn't balanced its fair. Being balanced mean there is no asymmetrical elements at all. The gameplay is identical and the only thing that separates players game play wise is skill. Ns2 will never be balanced it can only be fair. Right now marines are op and the alien gameplay just doesn't feel right.
<!--quoteo(post=2021506:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:15 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 12 2012, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you guys under stand what balance is. SC2 isn't balanced its fair. Being balanced mean there is no asymmetrical elements at all. The gameplay is identical and the only thing that separates players game play wise is skill. Ns2 will never be balanced it can only be fair. Right now marines are op and the alien gameplay just doesn't feel right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually a really good point, although it's mostly a semantic one. If you could be more specific about what 'right' would be it could help the conversation move forward or at least give people a clue as to what you might mean. Marines are OP is pretty vauge, and usually cried by those who recently lost a match to superior Frontiersmen. I think it's pretty fair at the moment, other than one amazing player can decide a game all by their lonesome. Doesn't matter which team they're on.
My experience with alien com has been good. It can actually be quite intensive late game. I use shifts as forward bases. Direct gorges to help build structures and rts faster. Drifters to scout. Choose to go upgrade first or rts first or hive first. I also sometimes go gorge myself and make a clog wall and hydras to help with the team if i have nothing to do. All this stuff needs to happen in less then 8 minutes.
Now mid game. 2nd hive is complete. Drop onos? or make upgrade chamber. Most of the time i go crag but in more advance games shade hive can be great. Mean while supporting gorge forts with shifts. Also drop rts. Make another drifter for scouting and use enzyme on pushes. If grenades go up makes whips with the gorges. Drop crag or shift to help. There are typically two focal points for gorges in pub. Let people know when the marines are pushing. I use bone wall offensively typically. I cut the marines in half and let people go for a push.
Now late game. Sometimes i use echo to replace my shifts(currently a bug with shift echo and making eggs so i dont do this). You can use echo to move mature whips with bombard to where exos push with an aid of gorges. Of course rts cist chain drifters and all the early mid game stuff needs to be done too. Decide on expansions or onos. If your team is winning u can just research everything. But in tight games u have to choose what upgrades/abilities are worth it. Bone wall, enzyme, and gorges can really turn the tide of a game. The rest can be good but have not really need it which is using disorientate from the shade offensively. save resourced by using echo(micro heavy). hallucination onos can maybe make a beacon but havent tried it and it is really risky in terms of resource investment. You can make shade traps with whips too. Also if u are really bored then u can experiment with cyst bursting and then finally aiding your team in combat.
Personally I did not like the khamm idea at the beginning of the beta, I miss the ns1 gorge, but now its turned into quite the experience. Definitely some things need to be tweeked so there are more viable strategies. Right now all strategies require a descent onos player. Some of the khamm tech routes are too expensive or just dont really have an affect on the game if used. Echo needs to be reworked. But is viable if it wasnt so micro intensive. lol Plus the gui in not as responsive like sc2 so its just plain hard. And other stuff.
TL;DR: For pub player khamm is not a boring job or you are doing it wrong. There is micro involved. I agree with the khamm strategically needs to still be tweaked.
<!--quoteo(post=2020794:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:26 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Nov 12 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also you don't even need to mist researches... its just an added thing if you have too much res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't need to mist researches at all. They took out mist speeding up research in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2012/9/ns2_build_221_released_lockdown" target="_blank">Build 221</a>, and, so far as I know, it was never added back in.
<!--quoteo(post=2020941:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:54 AM:name=Daxx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daxx @ Nov 12 2012, 11:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Creating forward healing/energy/stealth points is crucial as well. Getting them up quickly with nutrient cloud helps immensely (rarely see nutrient cloud used)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See above. Quick building was removed in the same build, and definitely not added back in (I've tested).
Just throwing out two thoughts I haven't noticed yet...
1) The Alien commander is here to stay. I like it. Asymmetry is great but so is a balanced resource mechanic. Giving both teams a commander makes balancing resource distribution even for both teams regardless of server size.
2) I've noticed the general idea in this thread is that even though the game is released it's not too late for big changes. The other side of that coin is that even though the game is released it's not too late for big additions. I know certain abilities and gameplay elements for the alien commander didn't make it into NS2 (like the infestation tunnels) and others are pending (like using cysts to guide infestation to breakthrough welded areas). Some abilities (shift moving buildings, whip bombard, illusions etc) are so expensive or not working correctly that they'll surely be fixed through a patch soon. I think NS2 has provided quite a few tools for the Khamm but a fair amount are too expensive and not worth the investment or are not working correctly.
Getting thoughts and suggestions out there is great but radical changes are not likely to be considered. I'd rather see a discussion focusing on suggestion to add some more use to the alien commander.
I would like to see more things similar to the Bone Wall. If the alien commander is to be a 'gardener' of infestation I'd like to walking on infestation as a marine to be risky. I really like the bone wall and think there's an opportunity to improve on what the khamm can do on infestation. A quick suggestion that could indirectly mess with marines (even in competitive matches) would be for an alien khamm to create fake footstep sounds to distract marines. Since footstep sounds travel 1000000 meters and through walls in NS2 this could really confuse, worry, slow down, distract an enemy pushing into an infested area.
<!--quoteo(post=2021623:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:54 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 12 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->quick suggestion that could indirectly mess with marines (even in competitive matches) would be for an alien khamm to create fake footstep sounds to distract marines. Since footstep sounds travel 1000000 meters and through walls in NS2 this could really confuse, worry, slow down, distract an enemy pushing into an infested area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is an upgrade from a mature Shade called Hallucination; you can create fake Skulks to run around and even attack Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2021634:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:03 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 12 2012, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is an upgrade from a mature Shade called Hallucination; you can create fake Skulks to run around and even attack Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, didn't realize they made sound. But unfortunately, hallucination is rarely used due to it's cost and where it's located on the tech tree.
<!--quoteo(post=2021652:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:16 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 12 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, didn't realize they made sound. But unfortunately, hallucination is rarely used due to it's cost and where it's located on the tech tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's is a conjunction for "it is". That sentence says <!--quoteo(post=2021652:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:16 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 12 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, didn't realize they made sound. But unfortunately, hallucination is rarely used due to it is cost and where it is located on the tech tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you want it to be possessive, type "its".
<!--quoteo(post=2021533:date=Nov 12 2012, 06:35 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 12 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's actually a really good point, although it's mostly a semantic one. If you could be more specific about what 'right' would be it could help the conversation move forward or at least give people a clue as to what you might mean. Marines are OP is pretty vauge, and usually cried by those who recently lost a match to superior Frontiersmen. I think it's pretty fair at the moment, other than one amazing player can decide a game all by their lonesome. Doesn't matter which team they're on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines can get mines and walk into your base mine there feet then shoot the ###### out of everything in your base. what can aliens do... get a rts maybe another hive then a onos. the game just isn't as strategic as i would like it to be. i want the alien commander to have much more mirco. i want the alien commander to have more options. i believe in UWE that they can make this game live up to its full potential. BUT ONE THING HAS TO HAPPEN. ###### this asymmetrical ideology about everything. GAMEPLAY FIRST GAMEPLAY ALWAYS. The game is already asymmetric enough with the aliens and marines. Im not saying the aliens need to be a carbon copy of the marines. But to out right ignore game play ideas because they are too symmetrical is dumb.
<!--quoteo(post=2021662:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:28 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 12 2012, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->marines can get mines and walk into your base mine there feet then shoot the ###### out of everything in your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No they can't.
<!--quoteo(post=2021669:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:33 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 12 2012, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes they can lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mines explode on infestation, and any team that lets you cut down the creep in their base and setting up mines has already lost that room.
"lol"
Nope, couldn't do it with a straight face. It just feels too stupid to stand. Now I'm sad.
<!--quoteo(post=2021675:date=Nov 13 2012, 03:41 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 13 2012, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines explode on infestation, and any team that lets you cut down the creep in their base and setting up mines has already lost that room.
"lol"
Nope, couldn't do it with a straight face. It just feels too stupid to stand. Now I'm sad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, i'm pretty sure you can still put mines on the walls/pillars close to a hive in certain places as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2021680:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:43 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 12 2012, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, i'm pretty sure you can still put mines on the walls/pillars close to a hive in certain places as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe in blind spots on the infestation's vertical spread? But you're still not standing on the thing, and it still won't save your push. If you can walk into a room, set up mines, and unload on the hive until it dies without getting beaconed, the alien team has already lost in so many ways. It's about as effective as Gorges setting up Hydras in the middle of a Marine base.
My only problem is how detatched the alien commander is from his team. The alien com doesn't require any player help in order to build structures like harvesters so it's always "harass marine roll out while i get resources up in my own leisure" and the success of the round depends on the success of that harass and partly whether the com bangs his head against a brick wall by advancing towards the marine base instead of away from it where marines have no map control.
Marines have several options open to them when they start the game in what to dedicate team res on in order to get the initial upper hand. They can go for map control with phase, offense and defence with weapon and armour upgrades, weapon loadouts with weapon versatility, robotics so the com doesn't have to rely on players building/welding anything or defending areas (sentries), or tech with protolab unlocks. All of which require a res commitment. Building too much stuff at once cripples the team and this effort always requires a level of commander/player communication.
On the contrary for alien com you have 3 choices, whether to go shade, crag or shift hive first and with your second hive you have 2 of your 3 tactical options unlocked for your team and the rest is elimentary. You can have both upgrades up pretty fast for either hive tech. The only real tactical choice for aliens is where to drop your whips and crags but even that becomes monotonous with map experience; it never really evolves.
I understand that the developers like the concept of a-symmetry and they can differentiate commander styles by having aliens rely on cysts but maybe they should be more expensive. A marine cutting off a cyst chain isn't nearly as annoying as it should be as it barely scratches the alien economy when they are replaced as they are destroyed providing they have at least 3 harvesters up. Nothing really bugs the alien commander like it does a marine one. At the very least, if the developers want to reduce the amount of micro for alien coms in comparison to marines, they could at least add in a little resource management to put in some actual RTS element.
<!--quoteo(post=2021683:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:45 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 12 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe in blind spots on the infestation's vertical spread? But you're still not standing on the thing, and it still won't save your push. If you can walk into a room, set up mines, and unload on the hive until it dies without getting beaconed, the alien team has already lost in so many ways. It's about as effective as Gorges setting up Hydras in the middle of a Marine base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
all i have to say is go watch some competitive games before talking.
So typically, I take the whole map really fast. Then, I can still drop an early onos, but without sacrificing anything at all. I find joy in completely over powering the marines with map control, setting up invisible bases just outside their base, and watching my invisible onos eat guys and then the survivors running away into invisible whips. I don't know how it could ever lose it's charm.
<!--quoteo(post=2021695:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:01 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 12 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->all i have to say is go watch some competitive games before talking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *chuckle*
Bringing mines with you to kill a hive is a good strat techer...
The alien commander is "fun" to me, but I would strongly prefer to have the ole gorge system back, or at least part of it. It would help solve some balance issues with PRES, and make the game more asymmetrical.
My biggest problem with alien comm is the lack of things to do, and low risk commanding compared to marines. It really does just feel tacked on at the end of the day.
The cool thing about alien commander is that you really only need a commander for about 30% of the game. And anyone can just hop in and out at any time to fill that role. It feels to me like it giving the alien commander more abilities would be OP, but at the same time it feels silly to have people sitting in a chair the whole game for no reason.
I know I am preaching to the choir, but seriously bring back gorges building structures.
<!--quoteo(post=2021673:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:38 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 13 2012, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->alien comm is boring if you play all serious face.
Cyst spamming everywhere and bursting/spike trolling marine faces, instead of saving for onos egg is quite enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fun for a while but it quickly becomes a bit sad. I tried hallucination spam, with like 5 things that spawn hallucinations, and micro them as quick as possible, it was fun for 30 seconds. The best thing with alien commander, alongside the old whip rush, was the drifter spam: get 3 hives, hotkey them and then do hive1-myst-drifter, hive2-myst-drifter, hive 1 drifter, hive3-myst-drifter etc. for two minutes, and then profit.
I don't know about you guys but I have tons of fun smoking a bowl or two while khamming, going silence and offensive shades everywhere and then trying to get marines stuck in my spikes and berating my cats (team) in a friendly manner.
Comments
You make it very clear to everyone that you are talking about your opinion and your game experience ("<u><b>I</b></u> don't like alien commander") while refraining from broad generalizations or insults (example? "NS2's alien commander is a piece of ######, UWE are lazy tards and everybody who disagrees with me is a moron!!!").
So, here we go:
<!--quoteo(post=2020749:date=Nov 12 2012, 02:53 PM:name=dota girl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dota girl @ Nov 12 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My biggest issue with it is that it's boring, and many facets of alien gameplay have been rendered completely unintuitive simply to justify there being a commander. Researching abilities, researching uprades, cyst chains, none of these really improve the game at all, they seem only to exist so the commander has something to do. As if the game was pulled apart and redesigned to fit around the commander role, not because the commander role seemed like a natural fit for aliens or the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are really talking about "natural fits" in something as artificial as a video game with made-up rules? Balancing an asymmetrical game like StarCraft is a neverending job that will only get harder when you add new elements to the equation. Look at the patch history of that game... it's amazing how much it changed, especially with the BroodWar expansion... there is no "done".
Anyway. You got a point when you say that NS2 was redesigned around a hitherto new alien commander. Sure, there wasn't one before. And I can very well remember the screaming rage in my ears when some (maybe not even purposefully griefing) NS1 gorge dared to drop a sensory chamber first...
Sacrificing one's own resources so the team can have that 2nd hive is a hard sell that will be even harder on public servers with today's Call of Duty, Battlefield and Counter-Strike audiences...
I like the invention of the NS2 alien comm. I think it was a good idea and I tend to stay busy during the whole game... but that's just me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the handful of games I've played alien commander I've felt redundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know that you can jump out and maybe give your assault force the deciding upper hand when they need it?
Then you return and spend the saved up res. If that isn't dynamic and interesting, I don't know what is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I drop nodes, and if we hold them I research things, typically in a set order, like celerity, hive, leap, carapace but the order really doesn't matter, and eventually I'll be researching everything worthwhile within a matter of minutes regardless of what I go with first or last.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you consider that when you are the all-seeing eye above the battlefield it is your job as the hivemind to pass on your superior intel to your teammates?
You can see and hear marines (those wobbling black shades) even if you don't have a drifter or teammate in that room. I repeat: You are crucial. Provided, of course, you got a team that's neither deaf or unresponsive...
A NS1 gorge on the ground could never fill that role of passing useful directions when his nose is stuck in the ground and his event horizon being the next corner.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Between that and fixing cyst chains I don't have any resources to do anything else. If we are really winning and have a huge node lead I can build support structures for people, but generally it's all kind of pointless, we've already won. I don't even have to talk, I may as well be an automaton while they play the game. If they keep the marines out of our side of the map we win, if not we lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, the marines aren't putting up much of a fight when your team steamrolls all over them. These games are boring, even if you are on the winning side.
No challenge = boring. Agreed.
But if the marines get their act together... some ninja commando finds your hidden spot where you keep all your fancy expensive upgrades or constantly interrupt your most crucial cyst chains or suddenly sneak into your most remote hive and shoot all the eggs there and the tension rises... what do you do then? Is that also boring?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's ultimately my problem with alien comm, the games are decided largely without your input so long as you understand to press buttons to get upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on! You are trying to joke by exaggeration here, right? If it <i>really </i>would be insta-win-button-simple, the aliens should win every game, because even the unfittest khamm could not ###### it up even if you wanted to.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Meanwhile you have one less alien player because the opportunities to leave the hive are rare until much later when everything is researched, unlike with a permanent or temporary gorge player who is an active participant. Yes I can direct people, and I do if the team isn't communicating, but it's not nearly as important as with marine comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. The marine comm is much more crucial to the survival and supply of the marines. For the rest, see my suggestion above. I don't see why you should stay inside that hive all game and never go out...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe instead of jacking creep from SC2 they should have taken the queen or something? An active role that is above gorges and drops hives/chambers etc. You'd still have to fix gorges though. I would love to be a queen someday<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so NS2 became not only a male, but also a female power fantasy :)
<a href="http://www.cracked.com/article_18932_alien-film-franchise-based-entirely-rape.html" target="_blank">http://www.cracked.com/article_18932_alien...irely-rape.html</a>
<a href="http://criticalpathproject.com/?v=38452091" target="_blank">Warren Spector - Think beyond fun</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lit0xPh_v5c&feature=plcp" target="_blank">Errant Signal - "FUN!"</a>
See what I mean?
but sometimes people see the 'commander needed' message and get in the chair and build 20 shells or 10 whips
What sold me on the kham initially was the whole "cosmic gardener". However right now as Khamm I feel more like the designated egg maker and automated research button pusher. The focus should more on the support structures and less on the research button pressing...like originally intended.
Right now cysts are a pain, and support structures are too expensive to bother, mostly because you need that res for research abilities and eggs (onos). Support structure can too easily be squashed by grenades and other means, so the cost to set up are not justified.
I'll also +1 zek and agree that abilities and upgrades should be tied to the hive number and type. Give the research structures another job. Frees up res for gardening. Hiding the trait structures in a corner somewhere does a disservice to their good looking models. Use them instead to expand on the cosmic gardener theme.
Make alien gardening less of a pain with more options and flexibility. Give aliens more tech options from the start of the game, but still allow clear progression into stronger tech latter in game. Do this..
<ul><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--></li><li>Allow all 3 support structure to be available at the start of the game (yea, shade, shift and crag). However only their passive ability is available initially. Their activated ability is only available once the appropriate hive type is made. This gives kham more support options at the start of the game.
</li><li>Make cysts chains an option, but a worthwhile option. Instead of requiring infestation, all structures can be built anywhere, but with some trickiness. Structures not on infestation or connected to the cyst chain (more on this later), don't build automatically and don't auto regen. They require a gorge to build and build slower than normal. Add to that, all structures can act as their own cyst node. So a harvester can act as part of the cyst chain. Plus a structure thats part of a cyst chain can autobuild. Once built they create their own infestation as a cyst does, and autoregen normally. Structures placed on existing infestation act as they do now. Together all this would lessen the need for cyst spam.
</li><li>The cysts themselves could afford a little more thought about their placement. They need some strategic meat. Mature cysts could act as seeds for support structures. Basically a kham places the structures over a mature cyst and it replace the cysts. Lets say by doing this (instead of placing them without a mature cyst) the cost of the structure is reduced by 50%. So a crag costs 5 res instead of 10 res doing it like this. This allows for the effective reduction of support structure price without allowing rampant spamming due to low costs. Coincidentally, using mist to speed up a cyst to maturity as quickly as possible cost 5 res (cyst + 2 mists). Upgrading the 3rd ability needs a plain cost reduction...15 res is kinda ridiculous right now. However the suggested removal of requiring the kham to spend res on abilities could justify the 15 res. Since the cysts are replaced in process this would lessen server load to a degree as there is no net gain of structures. Less cysts over all.
</li><li> Use current trait structures (not for traits ...leave that to the hives) for expanded cosmic gardening fun. You can can go about this in many different ways. One way that I think is pretty rad is for a mature cysts to be upgraded into one of the 3 (shell, spur, veil) for 1 or so res. Addtionnal benefits: it reduces cyst numbers, there is no net gain of structures (reducing server laod) and it gives mature cysts something to do. These can act as mini support structures emitting a similar passive ability as their bigger brothers or a 50-75% version of it. A full, 100% version can be unlocked if the respective hive type is built. They only have the passive and not the targeted or activated abilities. Walking in the infestation will look more like a garden and less like buggers with orange balls.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li></ul>
but sometimes people see the 'commander needed' message and get in the chair and build 20 shells or 10 whips<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, a commander who jumped out of the hive (or comm station) should keep his commander status for a while (unless he dies or someone else starts commanding). The "commander needed" message pops up to early.
Actually this guy went through the patch notes and found the contrary; there was only a few balance patches and then Broodwar went into 10 years of professional balanced games:
<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=157178" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=157178</a>
But it seems it's due to a miracle, so I guess it doesn't count:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually a really good point, although it's mostly a semantic one. If you could be more specific about what 'right' would be it could help the conversation move forward or at least give people a clue as to what you might mean. Marines are OP is pretty vauge, and usually cried by those who recently lost a match to superior Frontiersmen. I think it's pretty fair at the moment, other than one amazing player can decide a game all by their lonesome. Doesn't matter which team they're on.
Now mid game. 2nd hive is complete. Drop onos? or make upgrade chamber. Most of the time i go crag but in more advance games shade hive can be great. Mean while supporting gorge forts with shifts. Also drop rts. Make another drifter for scouting and use enzyme on pushes. If grenades go up makes whips with the gorges. Drop crag or shift to help. There are typically two focal points for gorges in pub. Let people know when the marines are pushing. I use bone wall offensively typically. I cut the marines in half and let people go for a push.
Now late game. Sometimes i use echo to replace my shifts(currently a bug with shift echo and making eggs so i dont do this). You can use echo to move mature whips with bombard to where exos push with an aid of gorges. Of course rts cist chain drifters and all the early mid game stuff needs to be done too. Decide on expansions or onos. If your team is winning u can just research everything. But in tight games u have to choose what upgrades/abilities are worth it. Bone wall, enzyme, and gorges can really turn the tide of a game. The rest can be good but have not really need it which is using disorientate from the shade offensively. save resourced by using echo(micro heavy). hallucination onos can maybe make a beacon but havent tried it and it is really risky in terms of resource investment. You can make shade traps with whips too. Also if u are really bored then u can experiment with cyst bursting and then finally aiding your team in combat.
Personally I did not like the khamm idea at the beginning of the beta, I miss the ns1 gorge, but now its turned into quite the experience. Definitely some things need to be tweeked so there are more viable strategies.
Right now all strategies require a descent onos player.
Some of the khamm tech routes are too expensive or just dont really have an affect on the game if used.
Echo needs to be reworked. But is viable if it wasnt so micro intensive. lol Plus the gui in not as responsive like sc2 so its just plain hard.
And other stuff.
TL;DR: For pub player khamm is not a boring job or you are doing it wrong. There is micro involved. I agree with the khamm strategically needs to still be tweaked.
You don't need to mist researches at all. They took out mist speeding up research in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2012/9/ns2_build_221_released_lockdown" target="_blank">Build 221</a>, and, so far as I know, it was never added back in.
<!--quoteo(post=2020941:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:54 AM:name=Daxx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daxx @ Nov 12 2012, 11:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Creating forward healing/energy/stealth points is crucial as well. Getting them up quickly with nutrient cloud helps immensely (rarely see nutrient cloud used)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above. Quick building was removed in the same build, and definitely not added back in (I've tested).
1) The Alien commander is here to stay. I like it. Asymmetry is great but so is a balanced resource mechanic. Giving both teams a commander makes balancing resource distribution even for both teams regardless of server size.
2) I've noticed the general idea in this thread is that even though the game is released it's not too late for big changes. The other side of that coin is that even though the game is released it's not too late for big additions. I know certain abilities and gameplay elements for the alien commander didn't make it into NS2 (like the infestation tunnels) and others are pending (like using cysts to guide infestation to breakthrough welded areas). Some abilities (shift moving buildings, whip bombard, illusions etc) are so expensive or not working correctly that they'll surely be fixed through a patch soon. I think NS2 has provided quite a few tools for the Khamm but a fair amount are too expensive and not worth the investment or are not working correctly.
Getting thoughts and suggestions out there is great but radical changes are not likely to be considered. I'd rather see a discussion focusing on suggestion to add some more use to the alien commander.
I would like to see more things similar to the Bone Wall. If the alien commander is to be a 'gardener' of infestation I'd like to walking on infestation as a marine to be risky. I really like the bone wall and think there's an opportunity to improve on what the khamm can do on infestation. A quick suggestion that could indirectly mess with marines (even in competitive matches) would be for an alien khamm to create fake footstep sounds to distract marines. Since footstep sounds travel 1000000 meters and through walls in NS2 this could really confuse, worry, slow down, distract an enemy pushing into an infested area.
That is an upgrade from a mature Shade called Hallucination; you can create fake Skulks to run around and even attack Marines.
Ah, didn't realize they made sound. But unfortunately, hallucination is rarely used due to it's cost and where it's located on the tech tree.
It's is a conjunction for "it is". That sentence says
<!--quoteo(post=2021652:date=Nov 12 2012, 10:16 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 12 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, didn't realize they made sound. But unfortunately, hallucination is rarely used due to it is cost and where it is located on the tech tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want it to be possessive, type "its".
marines can get mines and walk into your base mine there feet then shoot the ###### out of everything in your base. what can aliens do... get a rts maybe another hive then a onos. the game just isn't as strategic as i would like it to be. i want the alien commander to have much more mirco. i want the alien commander to have more options. i believe in UWE that they can make this game live up to its full potential. BUT ONE THING HAS TO HAPPEN. ###### this asymmetrical ideology about everything. GAMEPLAY FIRST GAMEPLAY ALWAYS. The game is already asymmetric enough with the aliens and marines. Im not saying the aliens need to be a carbon copy of the marines. But to out right ignore game play ideas because they are too symmetrical is dumb.
No they can't.
yes they can lol
Cyst spamming everywhere and bursting/spike trolling marine faces, instead of saving for onos egg is quite enjoyable.
Mines explode on infestation, and any team that lets you cut down the creep in their base and setting up mines has already lost that room.
"lol"
Nope, couldn't do it with a straight face. It just feels too stupid to stand. Now I'm sad.
"lol"
Nope, couldn't do it with a straight face. It just feels too stupid to stand. Now I'm sad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, i'm pretty sure you can still put mines on the walls/pillars close to a hive in certain places as well.
Maybe in blind spots on the infestation's vertical spread? But you're still not standing on the thing, and it still won't save your push. If you can walk into a room, set up mines, and unload on the hive until it dies without getting beaconed, the alien team has already lost in so many ways. It's about as effective as Gorges setting up Hydras in the middle of a Marine base.
Marines have several options open to them when they start the game in what to dedicate team res on in order to get the initial upper hand. They can go for map control with phase, offense and defence with weapon and armour upgrades, weapon loadouts with weapon versatility, robotics so the com doesn't have to rely on players building/welding anything or defending areas (sentries), or tech with protolab unlocks. All of which require a res commitment. Building too much stuff at once cripples the team and this effort always requires a level of commander/player communication.
On the contrary for alien com you have 3 choices, whether to go shade, crag or shift hive first and with your second hive you have 2 of your 3 tactical options unlocked for your team and the rest is elimentary. You can have both upgrades up pretty fast for either hive tech. The only real tactical choice for aliens is where to drop your whips and crags but even that becomes monotonous with map experience; it never really evolves.
I understand that the developers like the concept of a-symmetry and they can differentiate commander styles by having aliens rely on cysts but maybe they should be more expensive. A marine cutting off a cyst chain isn't nearly as annoying as it should be as it barely scratches the alien economy when they are replaced as they are destroyed providing they have at least 3 harvesters up. Nothing really bugs the alien commander like it does a marine one. At the very least, if the developers want to reduce the amount of micro for alien coms in comparison to marines, they could at least add in a little resource management to put in some actual RTS element.
all i have to say is go watch some competitive games before talking.
*chuckle*
The alien commander is "fun" to me, but I would strongly prefer to have the ole gorge system back, or at least part of it. It would help solve some balance issues with PRES, and make the game more asymmetrical.
My biggest problem with alien comm is the lack of things to do, and low risk commanding compared to marines. It really does just feel tacked on at the end of the day.
The cool thing about alien commander is that you really only need a commander for about 30% of the game. And anyone can just hop in and out at any time to fill that role. It feels to me like it giving the alien commander more abilities would be OP, but at the same time it feels silly to have people sitting in a chair the whole game for no reason.
I know I am preaching to the choir, but seriously bring back gorges building structures.
Cyst spamming everywhere and bursting/spike trolling marine faces, instead of saving for onos egg is quite enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fun for a while but it quickly becomes a bit sad. I tried hallucination spam, with like 5 things that spawn hallucinations, and micro them as quick as possible, it was fun for 30 seconds. The best thing with alien commander, alongside the old whip rush, was the drifter spam: get 3 hives, hotkey them and then do hive1-myst-drifter, hive2-myst-drifter, hive 1 drifter, hive3-myst-drifter etc. for two minutes, and then profit.