The 6 Minute Onos Solutions
Safewood
Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166381Members
Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166381Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Discuss how to solve the early game Onos</div><b>Foreword:</b>
I believe it's generally accepted that a 6 minute Onos is a problem, and I want this thread to be a discussion on how it could be solved. There's a few solutions below, the thread isn't really about discussing just these solutions, but only to speed up the discussion.
<b>1.)</b> Khammander can't drop an Onos egg until X minute mark.
Argument: Easy solution for the 6 minute Onos.
Counter-argument: Horrible solution for balancement.
<b>2.)</b> Khammander can't drop an Onos egg until 3rd Hive.
Argument: Overally prolonges the game, and the more pressure given by the Marines, the later Aliens will get an Onos. No P.Res while dead.
Counter-argument: Too much pressure could potentially make it too hard for Aliens to actually have a comeback.
<b>3.)</b> Aliens can't evolve to an Onos until 3rd Hive.
Argument: More or less the same as #2.
Counter-argument: Most likely result in a stalemate if Aliens can't manage to get a 3rd Hive to break the Marines' turtle power.
<b>4.)</b> No armor until Carapace.
Argument: Makes it easier to deal with early game.
Counter-argument: Forces to build Crag first, and only 30 tres more difference.
<b>5.)</b> Onos grows by kills.
Argument: Same as #4.
Counter-argument: Forces to go early Onos to make it viable late game, though it could scale on what upgrades and such Marines has.
<b>6.)</b> Onos grows by hives, matured and non-matured.
Argument: You can still get a 6 minute Onos, except it's much less viable than it's right now.
Counter-argument: Can be difficult for new players to understand, but a tooltip can always try to explain it as best as possible.
<b>7.)</b> Can't drop Onos until a lifeform has evolved to one.
Argument: Easy to follow, and the more pressure given by the Marines, the later Aliens will get an Onos. No P.Res while dead.
Counter-argument: Too much pressure could potentially make it too hard for Aliens to actually have a comeback.
<b>8.)</b> Egg drops by mature and non-mature Hives. For more information, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124316" target="_blank">visit this thread</a>.
1.) Gorge - No requirements.
2.) Lerk - 1 mature Hive, or 2 non-mature Hives.
3.) Fade - 1 mature Hive and 1 non-mature Hive, or 3 non-mature Hives.
4.) Onos - 2 mature Hives, or 1 mature Hive and 2 non-mature Hives.
Argument: With tweaks to the maturation time and the effectiveness of nutrient mist, then this could be a balance for the early Onos.
Counter-argument: Can be difficult to get the drift of how it all work, as well as a 3rd Hive requirement on top of it could potentially create quite a stalemate.
<b>9.)</b> Egg drops by mature and non-mature Hives. Tweaked a bit.
1.) Gorge - No requirements.
2.) Lerk - 1 mature Hive.
3.) Fade - 1 mature Hive and 1 non-mature Hive.
4.) Onos - 2 mature Hives.
The maturation for a Hive would be changed to 8 minutes. However, the nutrient mist's effectiveness is reduced from 200% to 100% for buildings only, and double the duration and cost.
It would reduce the maturation from 8 minutes to 4 minutes for a cost of 32 T.Res.
Argument: Easier to follow than #6.
Counter-argument: Same as #6, except now it doesn't require you a 3rd Hive for it.
<b>10.)</b> Onos must be teched at 2nd Hive, with possibly an ability upgrade.
Argument: Time and cost for the tech can balance for when the early Onos comes out, and the ability upgrade balance its early game presence.
Counter-argument: Makes it similar to Marines, hence less asymmetrical.
<b>11.)</b> Explosives receives a stun effect.<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=124319&view=findpost&p=2023341" target="_blank">*</a>
Argument: Harder to counter with only mines early games, and GL isn't all that easy to time grenades with.
Counter-argument: Might be difficult to correctly balance between both factions for it to not be anti-fun.
<b>12.)</b> T.Res model is staggered with it being based on # of hives; the more Hives, the less things costs.
Argument: Balance cost by Hives.
Counter-argument: Difficult to follow, and creates even more burden of knowledge.
I believe it's generally accepted that a 6 minute Onos is a problem, and I want this thread to be a discussion on how it could be solved. There's a few solutions below, the thread isn't really about discussing just these solutions, but only to speed up the discussion.
<b>1.)</b> Khammander can't drop an Onos egg until X minute mark.
Argument: Easy solution for the 6 minute Onos.
Counter-argument: Horrible solution for balancement.
<b>2.)</b> Khammander can't drop an Onos egg until 3rd Hive.
Argument: Overally prolonges the game, and the more pressure given by the Marines, the later Aliens will get an Onos. No P.Res while dead.
Counter-argument: Too much pressure could potentially make it too hard for Aliens to actually have a comeback.
<b>3.)</b> Aliens can't evolve to an Onos until 3rd Hive.
Argument: More or less the same as #2.
Counter-argument: Most likely result in a stalemate if Aliens can't manage to get a 3rd Hive to break the Marines' turtle power.
<b>4.)</b> No armor until Carapace.
Argument: Makes it easier to deal with early game.
Counter-argument: Forces to build Crag first, and only 30 tres more difference.
<b>5.)</b> Onos grows by kills.
Argument: Same as #4.
Counter-argument: Forces to go early Onos to make it viable late game, though it could scale on what upgrades and such Marines has.
<b>6.)</b> Onos grows by hives, matured and non-matured.
Argument: You can still get a 6 minute Onos, except it's much less viable than it's right now.
Counter-argument: Can be difficult for new players to understand, but a tooltip can always try to explain it as best as possible.
<b>7.)</b> Can't drop Onos until a lifeform has evolved to one.
Argument: Easy to follow, and the more pressure given by the Marines, the later Aliens will get an Onos. No P.Res while dead.
Counter-argument: Too much pressure could potentially make it too hard for Aliens to actually have a comeback.
<b>8.)</b> Egg drops by mature and non-mature Hives. For more information, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124316" target="_blank">visit this thread</a>.
1.) Gorge - No requirements.
2.) Lerk - 1 mature Hive, or 2 non-mature Hives.
3.) Fade - 1 mature Hive and 1 non-mature Hive, or 3 non-mature Hives.
4.) Onos - 2 mature Hives, or 1 mature Hive and 2 non-mature Hives.
Argument: With tweaks to the maturation time and the effectiveness of nutrient mist, then this could be a balance for the early Onos.
Counter-argument: Can be difficult to get the drift of how it all work, as well as a 3rd Hive requirement on top of it could potentially create quite a stalemate.
<b>9.)</b> Egg drops by mature and non-mature Hives. Tweaked a bit.
1.) Gorge - No requirements.
2.) Lerk - 1 mature Hive.
3.) Fade - 1 mature Hive and 1 non-mature Hive.
4.) Onos - 2 mature Hives.
The maturation for a Hive would be changed to 8 minutes. However, the nutrient mist's effectiveness is reduced from 200% to 100% for buildings only, and double the duration and cost.
It would reduce the maturation from 8 minutes to 4 minutes for a cost of 32 T.Res.
Argument: Easier to follow than #6.
Counter-argument: Same as #6, except now it doesn't require you a 3rd Hive for it.
<b>10.)</b> Onos must be teched at 2nd Hive, with possibly an ability upgrade.
Argument: Time and cost for the tech can balance for when the early Onos comes out, and the ability upgrade balance its early game presence.
Counter-argument: Makes it similar to Marines, hence less asymmetrical.
<b>11.)</b> Explosives receives a stun effect.<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=124319&view=findpost&p=2023341" target="_blank">*</a>
Argument: Harder to counter with only mines early games, and GL isn't all that easy to time grenades with.
Counter-argument: Might be difficult to correctly balance between both factions for it to not be anti-fun.
<b>12.)</b> T.Res model is staggered with it being based on # of hives; the more Hives, the less things costs.
Argument: Balance cost by Hives.
Counter-argument: Difficult to follow, and creates even more burden of knowledge.
Comments
Argument: Overally prolonges the game, and brings forth the Lerk and Fade someone can afford an Onos egg or until 3rd Hive is up.
Counter-argument: Forces some to only play Skulk until they can afford an Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the only "solution" I like, as long as it is ONLY a limitation on the commander (egg drop). If the alien team is dominating so hard that they have enough res towers for players to personally acquire 75 res by 6 minutes, they should still be able to go Onos to put that Marine team out of it's misery.
As for the counter-argument, this is what a lot of (mostly inexperienced) players are doing. Onos looks big and fun, so they want it. A skilled Lerk or Fade can still easily win an early game, so I don't see this as a serious concern.
Indeed, however, if players already got 50 P.Res, then it's not much of a problem to wait 25 more, depending on the res nodes you have, of course.
I believe if the changed how shadow step and blink mechanics work for Fade, and changes the Lerk's kit up a bit, then I believe these two would be much more attractive and would be found more useful in the early to mid game.
The teams can only get fast Onos/ExoSkeletons if the other team let them farm the resources for it..
If you opponent don't do anything to stop you, Then why should the game be even?
The onos is the only class that can really demolish machines with any reasonable haste right now. If there was another life form, or if the current life forms had some different powers that actually did something to help fight marine structures, then it wouldn't happen so much.
I think the Khammander should be able to drop Onos eggs, but I think it should require one of the hives to be "mature", along Mad Max's suggestions in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124255&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=124255&hl=</a>
You only need 3 res nodes to get a 6 minute Onos. That's quite a difficult task for marines to shut down.
<b>@ Blindga:</b>
I like the Lerk's and Fade's jobs and don't think buffing or overhauling them would solve the Onos problem at all, however, I believe they need a few changes though, but that's for another topic.
<b>@ Cee Colon Slash:</b>
That's quite an ingenious solution, and I really like it! I think that just might be it, really. :)
<!--quoteo(post=2020367:date=Nov 12 2012, 04:21 AM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 12 2012, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Egg drops by mature and non-mature Hives:</u>
<b>1.)</b> Gorge - No requirements.
<b>2.)</b> Lerk - 1 mature Hive, or 2 non-mature Hives.
<b>3.)</b> Fade - 1 mature Hive and 1 non-mature Hive, or 3 non-mature Hives.
<b>4.)</b> Onos - 2 mature Hives, or 1 mature Hive and 2 non-mature Hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rework some of the timings for marine tech, so that if your team scouts a really early hive, 3 RTs and no upgrades you can be prepared for it, but a team that keeps it hidden could pull it off. Early jetpacks, maybe? It would let the marines dodge the gore and chase the onos down, but perhaps to get them out that fast you had to skip something else important, like slower weapon upgrades or no mines/shotgun?
This seems like a really complex problem :S
The onos is the only class that can really demolish machines with any reasonable haste right now. If there was another life form, or if the current life forms had some different powers that actually did something to help fight marine structures, then it wouldn't happen so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge bile bomb works better, 10 pres lifeform with a 20 tres ability, lobs a big ball of acid that splashes and sticks to everything in a big radius. It eats player and exosuit armour and marine structures. The gorges healing the onos can do it while they're healing, it does damage over time so you only have to reapply it, not hold down attack on it. Often it is easy to hit the command station and the obs and other structures next to it from the door of the room, and you can get back into cover as soon as you launch the bomb. Onos is a very effective meatshield, pretty much the opposite of the other forms. They're very important but I don't feel they're important because of marine structures.
Another idea off the top of my head, could umbra be made 2 hive tech so lerks can fill the role of damage mitigation in the midgame instead of onos and his buddy gorge goring and puking on all your stuff? Would it be too powerful?
It's just a few tweaking here and there with maturation and nutrient mist. The build time can stay the same, which is 2 minutes and 30 seconds. However, the maturation is only a mere 3 minutes, and just only 1 minute with nutrient mist, which is only a 8 T.Res cost.
If, like Mad Max suggested, the maturation was at 8 minutes. However, the nutrient mist's effectiveness was reduced from 200% to 100% for buildings only, and double the duration and cost.
It would reduce the maturation from 8 minutes to 4 minutes for a cost of 32 T.Res.
agreed... If you watched the ESL feed you would have seen a lot of onos drops, AND a lot of marine wins.
THis implies 2 facts
1st- Onos drop is currently the most powerful strategy
2nd-Onos drop is not OP
Put these together and your left realizing that if the most powerful strategy isnt winning games then how can any other strategy work?
Solution Fix overall early game balancing and delay early onos a bit...
The skill gap was no doubt vast between Archaea and Exertus.
The skill gap was no doubt vast between Archaea and Exertus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Possible but unless im remembering wrong, Exertus only won 2 games (both of which they were rines) so assuming Archaea is significantly better this would further show that aliens (including 6 min onos) cant hang with good rines even if they are amazing....
I'll try to carefully watch through the matches once again, and come back here with more information.
<b>@ yehawmcgraw:</b>
If you read the few posts here, you can see it's already been mentioned and discussed. Thanks.
*Those percentages and numbers listed are pulled out of a hat, obviously they would need tweaking. I still feel the concept is sound.
In addition, nerf the Onos' armor bonus with Carapace, it's ridiculous right now and it's a major contributor as to why they never die and win the game in 6 mins or in 45. They're a no risk all reward unit, that's why they are so desirable, that's why everyone stays skulk/gorge until they can afford one, that's why people rush them at 6 mins.
Well, unless the other team has Jet Packs. That'll send an Onos running, or chase them down and drop them. Not at six minutes though, I bet.
As for the Onos structure idea, it has possibilities but frankly it's a bit silly for just one life form to have that much clap trap attached to it. Even the Marines structure arguably has three 'life forms' it produces, not just one. Maybe a 'lifeform brain' or something that enables the production of Fade and Onos, but with Fade being somewhat weak sauce for the cost I can already tell you that you're handing the aliens a free-pass at skipping an entire research tree unless one of the Aliens <i>really</i> wants to go Fade. It also kind of smacks of making the Alien team more symmetrical which might get the symmetry police to troll you.
The idea of being able to only drop aliens that have been purchased with P.Res has merit, I'll admit. It fixes a lot of the problems without introducing a lot of new balance issues. On one hand I love it since without some lifeforms your team is doomed or nerfed, but on the other hand I like laying down Gorge eggs when no one goes Gorge. That way I know at least one person might get in and see how useful it is.
Basically, makes it better for good teams makes it worse for bad teams. Bad teams already fail, so I can't say this will change anything significant.
+1 on P.Res drop first.
this would allow relatively quick access to the ability whilst also giving more of an incentive to place shifts.
in order to place an onos egg the commander would first need to evolve the ihve, then place a shift and then an egg. by that time his resources wouldnt be high enough unless he had previously expanded to get harvesters so a longer process but still possible if the commander holds out. Also prevents the commander getting carapace then evolving an egg.
this would allow relatively quick access to the ability whilst also giving more of an incentive to place shifts.
in order to place an onos egg the commander would first need to evolve the ihve, then place a shift and then an egg. by that time his resources wouldnt be high enough unless he had previously expanded to get harvesters so a longer process but still possible if the commander holds out. Also prevents the commander getting carapace then evolving an egg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is, like, 20 extra tres. That's less than a minute added onto the onos and not really a solution at all.
If phase gates came later or cost more then the Onos could be tweaked otherwise forget it.
Egg drops by mature and non-mature Hives:
---------------------------------------------------
1.) Gorge - No requirements.
2.) Lerk - 1 mature Hive
3.) Fade - 2 non-mature Hives.
4.) Onos - 2 mature Hives
solved
solved<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That is already going to be like siedge maps, when aliens figth till doors open, then it's game end.
With this solution will marines wait till 6min mark, then onoses => rage-quit => game end.
:)
That's a great idea, I like it quite well. It's easier to follow, and solves its early game presence.
<b>@ biggians:</b>
Should the tech be available in all Hives? I don't think it's a bad idea, since to make it easier to get the drift. Could replace the Onos egg ability with the tech upgrade and when upgraded, the Onos egg ability appears, ready to use.
<b>@ RisingSun & SpaceJew:</b>
At second thought, GORGEous got me thinking about something. No P.Res while dead. The more pressure marines give you, the later you will have an Onos. I think that's a pretty viable solution, to be honest.
<b>@ deathshroud:</b>
Won't make much difference. See, most already goes Crag Hive first to get Carapace early, they get the second Hive as Shift to get Adrenaline and Celerity. A Shift costs only 10 T.Res and builds in only 18 seconds.
<b>@ Bullet_Force:</b>
I agree to some point, a 3rd Hive requirement can be quite a stalemate. As soon as a 3rd Hive is up and running however, then Aliens has pretty much won right there and then. Stomp, Umbra and Vortex.
As for the counter-argument, this is what a lot of (mostly inexperienced) players are doing. Onos looks big and fun, so they want it. A skilled Lerk or Fade can still easily win an early game, so I don't see this as a serious concern.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly you don't actually know what is required to get the Onos out.
Marines have to completely roflstomp Aliens in the first 5 minutes to prevent it.
An even game is suddenly a loss when the Onos comes out in 6 minutes.
Please don't post about a problem like this if you don't have any competitive experience.
You don't see it as a serious concern because you aren't participating in games where it's ruining the fun.
The issue imo, is that it's a T3 unit that's supposed to be endgame.. coming out in the early game where Marines have basically no upgrades. If they do have upgrades it's because they were dominating so hard in the first 5 minutes that they somehow managed to rush weapons1 or something. That's it, maybe shotguns and phase gates too. But good luck holding an all-in Onos push with 5 skulks or 4skulks/gorge.
Make Alien T1.5-2 better, move Onos to where it belongs. Late game.
maybe add a marine comm ability that prevents new evolutions for 2 minutes in an area of effect like a scan. this would allow pres evolutions away from the hive, but not tres drops because the eggs are going to be in 'scanned' areas (the two hives)
it could be balanced a variety of ways not limited to res cost and prerequisites and cooldowns... some nice risk/reward tradeoff might be that it locks the observatory and prevents beaconing for those 2 mins (or something else entirely). if there's a long cooldown, then there's the cost-benefit analysis of only doing it to one hive and trying to kill eggs in the other versus spending the res on two observatories and doing it to both hives
assuming this ability is called X and it has some cost, the goal would be to sort of give the rock-paper-scissors balance of
early alien upgrades > using X
using X > early onos
early onos > skipping X
early alien upgrades = skipping X
this might also adds the whole strategic element of denying scouting and actually reacting to what opponents do. deciding whether to use X is about obtaining information, and aliens can try to deny that information. this can add another risk/reward tradeoff on the alien side. if they don't want to rush onos, they could decide to research upgrades, but not reveal them too early (cost) in exchange for tricking marines into using X (benefit). or they can pretend to research upgrades (evolve hive, but not invest beyond that) and get onos 30 seconds slower. if a marine scan is detected, then aliens have to choose whether to evolve the plan or continue with it.
Marines have to completely roflstomp Aliens in the first 5 minutes to prevent it.
An even game is suddenly a loss when the Onos comes out in 6 minutes.
Please don't post about a problem like this if you don't have any competitive experience.
You don't see it as a serious concern because you aren't participating in games where it's ruining the fun.
The issue imo, is that it's a T3 unit that's supposed to be endgame.. coming out in the early game where Marines have basically no upgrades. If they do have upgrades it's because they were dominating so hard in the first 5 minutes that they somehow managed to rush weapons1 or something. That's it, maybe shotguns and phase gates too. But good luck holding an all-in Onos push with 5 skulks or 4skulks/gorge.
Make Alien T1.5-2 better, move Onos to where it belongs. Late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's great to see the competitive community provide their input in a helpful, respectful way.
I think we can all agree that we need to focus on 6v6 competitive game balance, which currently accounts for the vast majority of NS2 play. We also wouldn't want to upset our superior, Locklear here. The consequences might prove very unfortunate.