We need more than just RES!
The Hitchslap
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167133Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167133Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
Hi Chiefs
I think it's a mistake that NS2 does not currently have 2 types of res. There was at some point during the beta....I've no idea when it was removed.
I'd love to echo stuff around with a shift or fast heal my team with a Crag, but I almost never do....because it would generally be an inefficient use of res. :( Much better to get a team upgrade/hive
We need a pool of energy for structures so they are viable to use.
But maybe I'm just crazy. Let me know.
I think it's a mistake that NS2 does not currently have 2 types of res. There was at some point during the beta....I've no idea when it was removed.
I'd love to echo stuff around with a shift or fast heal my team with a Crag, but I almost never do....because it would generally be an inefficient use of res. :( Much better to get a team upgrade/hive
We need a pool of energy for structures so they are viable to use.
But maybe I'm just crazy. Let me know.
Comments
It was decided that it promoted spamming, since it cost nothing to just regenerate, so was removed. And it was a good decision for the most part. Madpack/shield spam was worse, and commanders who didn't do it were booted since there was no tactical reason to not medpack spam.
I think the only things that wouldn't cost energy, and retain their resource costs, would be things like hive upgrades and evolutions.
It was decided that it promoted spamming, since it cost nothing to just regenerate, so was removed. And it was a good decision for the most part. Madpack/shield spam was worse, and commanders who didn't do it were booted since there was no tactical reason to not medpack spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather a little medpack spam (which could be controlled, surely) than a game stuffed full of non-viable abilities that nobody uses until the game is already over.
Medpacks require tres, but are used constantly. Same with nanoshield. I spam eggs on a shift all game as alien commander, and use healing wave and ink alot.
Problem is that some abilities are not priced right for people to use them.
6v6 is what the comp community uses, and UWE wants to foster that. However majority of pub games are 12v12 or higher. Its like both are not even playing the same game. And i'm not just talking about the obvious skill level and tactical differences. At least when you are watching comp SC2 or moba matches, you at least know they are playing the same game you are playing. Things the pros do you as a normal player can attempt to recreate in your own games. However in NS2 6v6 comp matches, some things just won't transfer over into larger games.
A forward crag is amazing for any life form other than skulks, and is priced right unless you think the commanders job is merely to be an Onos factory.
A forward shift is amazing for keeping up constant pressure on a location, or to defend a vital area, or to speed-build a hive with gorge support.
A forward shade also has it's uses, mainly protecting the structures listed above and for making Whips far more deadly.
Supporting crappy play for the aliens by dropping constant Onos eggs and watching them wasted on fruitless base rushes by Rambo players is the biggest possible waste of T.Res you can imagine.
Also, there already are two types of resources. P.Res and T.Res. If your players aren't spending P.Res on life forms then they are either dying way too much, I.E. not skilled enough to make it worth the T.Res to support them, or were merely unlucky and finally got tagged. I'll drop an egg if someone asks, but otherwise I expect the alien players to use their own resources to buy life forms. It's my job to unlock their abilities as commander and support them, not do everything for them.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that Fades actually do <i>more</i> damage to players than a skulk or lerk but <i>less</i> damage to structures. That should clue you in to what the Fades real strength's are. The only life form that does more damage than a Fade is an Onos, but the Fade makes up for the damage difference with stupid high mobility.
Its simply too expensive to use in any game thats even half way competitive. Sure..its not exactly game breaking that competitive teams hardly use any support structures...but it is kinda boring...
<!--quoteo(post=2022592:date=Nov 13 2012, 04:47 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 13 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A forward crag is amazing for any life form other than skulks, and is priced right unless you think the commanders job is merely to be an Onos factory.
A forward shift is amazing for keeping up constant pressure on a location, or to defend a vital area, or to speed-build a hive with gorge support.
A forward shade also has it's uses, mainly protecting the structures listed above and for making Whips far more deadly.
Supporting crappy play for the aliens by dropping constant Onos eggs and watching them wasted on fruitless base rushes by Rambo players is the biggest possible waste of T.Res you can imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, if you want to win games as alien comm, onos egg button pusher is the way to go. Also researching abilities like leap take priority over crag stations. They should get the kham out of the business of researching abilities, and have them focus more on some cosmic gardening.
so now powernodes are more useful - even in rooms without restowers and techpoints.
Aliens on the otherhand would gain energy from powerpoints that are not socketed, so not only is it a resource races for equipment, but an energy race for commander special abilities. (and of course commander abilities help secure respoints, and respoints help players secure powerpoints).
The really nice thing about energy is that, the commander doesn't have to decide between spending res to help out players on the ground or whether to spend res to get upgrades and structures. Having energy for commander abilities means that the commander has more fun stuff to do!
even if its free(which i don't think it should be), it regenrates slowly, so sure you CAN med spam, but only for a while, and after that you can't med spam for a long duration until your energy comes back, and it limits the commander to use other abilities such as scan.
Either way, an energy pool for the commanders, means they are able to do more fun stuff and it opens up more options for them to be able to interact a little more directly with the players, more often.
It also means you can potentially get rid of crappy cool downs on things like nanoshield and cysts - have enough energry in your pool? well why not do a nanoshield rush?
sure it will be a while before you can use your energy again, but thats up to the commander.
yo dawg, i heard you liek nanites... :)
I believe that the powered areas of the facilities are meant to have a nanofield or something like that. (which doesnt explain why you can med spam in none powered areas.... hey there is an idea...)
But you are right, medspam is still a problem even without a central energy pool for the commander, so bring back an energy pool will not necessarily make it worse.
Unfortunately, if you want to win games as alien comm, onos egg button pusher is the way to go. Also researching abilities like leap take priority over crag stations. They should get the kham out of the business of researching abilities, and have them focus more on some cosmic gardening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, no they are not 'too expensive'. You're just building them too soon, in the wrong places, or not telling your team where you put them. Shifts are the early-game structure to keep up skulk pressure. Crags are mid-game structures to support higher life forms that people <i>should</i> be evolving to with their own P.Res. The fact that most aliens players are terrible at playing Fade's and Lerk's are what lead to the 'save for Onos' or 'spam Onos eggs' strategy, but if the players evolve into mid-game units and <i>don't die instantly</i> they allow the alien commander to control the map and drop Onos eggs when it matters at the end-game.
(This discounts the fast Onos strategy, of course, which might be what you're referring to. I'm not going down that rabbit hole right now though, this is purely considering the usefulness of alien's structures. The pro's and con's of one particular strategy are well documented in other threads.)
You see the <i>exact same behavior</i> from crappy Marine players. How many times have you seen the entire Marines team go Exo with no welder support because of this lunacy?
Intermediately skilled players are more than able to match equally skilled Marines players if they are at all strategically minded in this hybrid RTS/FPS game. You need both, especially when evenly skilled.
The way I see it is, Marine Commanders should adopt different strategies for 12v12 matches to 6v6.
Although the relative effectiveness of Medpack has decreased in larger matches, the relative costs of (weapons, armor) upgrades have decreased. In a larger match, the death of one player usually becomes less significant as well.
Thus I would recommend commanders of public games (which usually range from 8v8 to 12v12) to spam less medpacks, and focus on researching upgrades instead.
And what scales on the alien team?
Medpack buff, are you serious.... bahaha.
(This discounts the fast Onos strategy, of course, which might be what you're referring to. I'm not going down that rabbit hole right now though, this is purely considering the usefulness of alien's structures. The pro's and con's of one particular strategy are well documented in other threads.)
You see the <i>exact same behavior</i> from crappy Marine players. How many times have you seen the entire Marines team go Exo with no welder support because of this lunacy?
Intermediately skilled players are more than able to match equally skilled Marines players if they are at all strategically minded in this hybrid RTS/FPS game. You need both, especially when evenly skilled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If crags were really that good, we'd see them in comp play. If you lose a battle you lose the crag, to put them somewhere useful means you might lose them, and they are too expensive to lose for the benefit they provide.
The top two ns2 comp teams are pretty good I reckon, and they use the fast onos strategy. Is that because Fana can't play fade, or because fast onos is simply more powerful than a couple fades and crag spam?
Yes, because a professional league 6 v 6 game has <i>everything</i> to do with the 12 v 12 or 8 v 8 games most of us play. If you continue to use the highest possible benchmark to underline your arguments you're going to find that no one takes you seriously. You'll also find Onos die a bit faster under fire from 11 troops vs 5. Again, this is well documented information in other threads that discuss the specific pro's and con's to that strategy, but until it's the <i>only viable strategy to win</i>, which it isn't, I'm done talking about it as the exception to current gameplay.
oh god no please don't listen to that suggestion marines already have enough things that favour them
Although the relative effectiveness of Medpack has decreased in larger matches, the relative costs of (weapons, armor) upgrades have decreased. In a larger match, the death of one player usually becomes less significant as well.
Thus I would recommend commanders of public games (which usually range from 8v8 to 12v12) to spam less medpacks, and focus on researching upgrades instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats no way to balance a game.
Its effectively creating two or more different games, but using one set of balance changes and hoping it all works out somehow in the end.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, because a professional league 6 v 6 game has <i>everything</i> to do with the 12 v 12 or 8 v 8 games most of us play. If you continue to use the highest possible benchmark to underline your arguments you're going to find that no one takes you seriously. You'll also find Onos die a bit faster under fire from 11 troops vs 5. Again, this is well documented information in other threads that discuss the specific pro's and con's to that strategy, but until it's the <i>only viable strategy to win</i>, which it isn't, I'm done talking about it as the exception to current gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, the point is if you are playing to competitively, you are not going to build many if any support structures. If you are playing in a causal pub match, yea..sure..build crag stations to your heart's content. Good chance you might get away with it and still win. I've done it myself when I feel cosmic gardeneryish
<!--quoteo(post=2022924:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:26 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Nov 13 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats no way to balance a game.
Its effectively creating two or more different games, but using one set of balance changes and hoping it all works out somehow in the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, in "perfect balance world" the commander would have no way to spend TRes on players and it would only unlock tech/support buildings. But even then player differentials would cause different spending patterns. There is little point in getting Lerk upgrades on small teams that just go Fade/Onos to ensure every player is powerful. On large teams the additional sideways development into a few Lerks is crucial to round out the death squads. Plus in smaller teams support buildings are less useful since engagements are spread out. A forward crag healing 1 or 2 Skulks the whole game isn't worth it. A forward crag healing a Skulk+Gorge+Lerk pack sieging a location is totally worth it.
Plus, that's boring. Commander interaction is a core gameplay element.
That's not to say I don't approve of Energy. There are a few global-like abilities that I personally feel energy can work for. Alien support structure abilities and Scans are the notables off the top of my head. Less mental stress on tradeoffs for using them. Just use them (assuming you have the energy)!
As a sidenote: in NS1 spending patterns on larger versus smaller games was relatively the same. Medspam instead of being used on everyone was only used on crucial engagements. Plus there was only so much APM the comm could perform. In both comp and pub play all the res was sunk into upgrades ASAP (well, after the important stuff like buildings and a few shotties), and the rest went into support stuff. So it actually did all work out in the end.
Also, in NS1, Res spending was an investment in terms of both map control and more Res due to Res-For-Kills. Spending 1Res on a medpack to ensure a kill nets me +1 res (RFK was randomly 1-3res). Spending on medpack and ammo to keep a squad going through 2 engagements and control more of the map was worth it. Spending for a Shotgun was about winning engagements (and therefore the map) as well as a tangible return on investment in Res.
As long as the teams are balanced and the game is fun, what problem is it that some things don't scale?
Don't get me wrong! I'm not happy with the balancing of comp-games right now. But I think it is possible to have different working tactics on different player counts without breaking the game. It may not be there yet, but it can. And demanding universal scalability just for the sake of it, is not the way to go. I would love to see more use of alien buildings in comp play. (FYI: I'm not playing comp matches, but like to watch them.) But this is not a pure scalability problem.
This said, I want to add to the original topic, that I don't liked the implementation of energy in the beta. It was annoying to watch the energy level of the different buildings. It promoted spam. It created no new options for the commander, but instead mindless chores. You had to use the energy or you were gimping your team. Every com that didn't used the energy pool, was a bad one.
Now you have a real option. Do I assist in this battle with scans and medpacks or should I save the res for the next upgrade? Forcing a beacon is now a hit to the resources. While with energy you gained nothing but a little bit time before they are back at your hive. When you die as alien to a marine that needed 2 medpacks and a scan to stay alive against you, than you know that you at least just destroyed 5 resources of the enemy team.
So my opinion is: No. Energy was bad. It decreased the amount of options the commander had and replaced them with boring chores like "watch your energy levels" and "spam support abilities when you hit the energy-max". Commanding should be about tactical decisions. Not about who has more APM.