fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
From what I understand, this is a problem with marine collision hulls. If they were made to be more square, or entirely squared, it should make marine climbing impossible and also make skulking a little bit easier. There may be reasons why it's beneficial to have them non-square though, idk.
I definitely agree that it's too easy for marines to access many vents, especially on veil. It should be possible to get a marine inside a vent, but you should have to put some effort into it by having to "boost" another marine in (crouching and letting them jump on you).
I believe this started when they changed the collision model to use a pill instead of a cylinder.. I assume that change was made to improve performance, but IMO is one of the areas where I would rather see performance sacrificied somewhat for better results, good, solid collisions are hugely important for a good melee/ranged combat system.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
im not an expert on this (dushan is) but from what i know this has something to do with depenetration chosing always the shortest way (also vertical!) to prevent getting stuck when colliding with something. another side effect of this is current player collision: when a skulk and marine run into each other, the marine will be forced above the skulk. the solution is to prioritize horizontal depenetration first, and only go vertical if that fails (or something like this). its a complex topic, and while that solution here sounds simple, its not (from what i know).
<!--quoteo(post=2023270:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:24 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 14 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im not an expert on this (dushan is) but from what i know this has something to do with depenetration chosing always the shortest way (also vertical!) to prevent getting stuck when colliding with something. another side effect of this is current player collision: when a skulk and marine run into each other, the marine will be forced above the skulk. the solution is to prioritize horizontal depenetration first, and only go vertical if that fails (or something like this). its a complex topic, and while that solution here sounds simple, its not (from what i know).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the solution is simple for the west skylight vent then... remove the prop that allows it :\
Yep if the technical solution isn't viable then the maps(i.e. Veil) should be fixed so the marines can't climb into those vents without assistance. The whole reason those vents are above ground is so that marines can't just crawl right into them.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
^ What Zek said.
The problem isn't that marines can enter vents, it's that they can enter too many vents at the start of the game without any assistance. (Friends, mines, jetpacks.)
Raise some of the vents beyond normal marine accessibility and the chances of seeing a marine in a vent drop greatly. Completely blocking vents off from Marines the entire game creates an unfair safe haven aliens could continue to hide and camp from.
<!--quoteo(post=2023019:date=Nov 14 2012, 04:28 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 14 2012, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Veil is pretty bad yes, and I personally don't like anything except skulks and lerks in vents, but it's the way it is.
Also, not too many have learned the gorge in double (nano) on veil trick yet, which is good, because that's THE most annoying crap that is in the game.
Basically, you go gorge in the vent on veil (I think you have to jump to evolve, lol?) and then you can build a clog ladder to get to the top of it and then bilebomb the power outside of LOS. Same can be done in subsector, but it's a bit more difficult. Jetpacks make this meaningless though, but if jetpacks aren't out, double is going down for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The best counter to that is have two marines stack. The top marine can see into the vent and shoot the gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=2023032:date=Nov 14 2012, 04:36 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 14 2012, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or grenade launchers... which is a whole 20 resources from the commander and gives a guaranteed 10 pres kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gernade launchers have both research cost and the cost to buy. More than fair to kill a 10 pres alien. Even a 30 pres alien.
<!--quoteo(post=2023019:date=Nov 14 2012, 07:28 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 14 2012, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Veil is pretty bad yes, and I personally don't like anything except skulks and lerks in vents, but it's the way it is.
Also, not too many have learned the gorge in double (nano) on veil trick yet, which is good, because that's THE most annoying crap that is in the game.
Basically, you go gorge in the vent on veil (I think you have to jump to evolve, lol?) and then you can build a clog ladder to get to the top of it and then bilebomb the power outside of LOS. Same can be done in subsector, but it's a bit more difficult. Jetpacks make this meaningless though, but if jetpacks aren't out, double is going down for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can get LOS on the vents in nanogrid by jumping on the RT.
Also, you can get into the Skylights vent without jumping on the prop, its just a bit trickier to go straight in.
<!--quoteo(post=2023536:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:09 PM:name=Golden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Golden @ Nov 14 2012, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can get LOS on the vents in nanogrid by jumping on the RT.
Also, you can get into the Skylights vent without jumping on the prop, its just a bit trickier to go straight in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention by the time you see a gorge with bilebomb your team will have had the opportunity to have the tech to straight counter it without even jumping on the RT.
<!--quoteo(post=2023065:date=Nov 14 2012, 04:22 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 14 2012, 04:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see the problem here. Evil marine sits in your vent? Let him rot in there. Perhaps parasite him to warn others and move on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea in theory but parasite doesn’t last that long. The idea of the vent is to have a safe way to get up close to the marine or go around them.
<!--quoteo(post=2023232:date=Nov 14 2012, 07:47 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Nov 14 2012, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of marines being able to access certain vents with the help of a buddy giving them a boost. It adds a nice element of teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be cool, it worked well in NS1 and it does build teamwork. But as it now stands a lone marine can jump crouch into almost every vent in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2023332:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:24 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Nov 14 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Raise some of the vents beyond normal marine accessibility and the chances of seeing a marine in a vent drop greatly. Completely blocking vents off from Marines the entire game creates an unfair safe haven aliens could continue to hide and camp from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely blocking vents off from a single marine would be better. Now don’t get me wrong, I love to get into vents and I love camping them. I can rack up 3 to 10 kills before aliens give up and run right into my few buddies in the hall.
<!--quoteo(post=2023545:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:13 PM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Nov 14 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention by the time you see a gorge with bilebomb your team will have had the opportunity to have the tech to straight counter it without even jumping on the RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE can’t comprehend this way of thinking, hence they put the half down doors in sub access on veil.
So as it stands now UWE doesn’t know how to fix the physics of the game to not allow the marines to climb wall. So instead change a few props in the game to make it at least a little bit harder for marines to get into vents. One idea would to place power nodes father away from vents so that marines can’t hop on the power node and just walk right in.
It’s just wrong for skulk rushes to fail cause some marine put a few mines in a vent 30 feet off the ground where the skulks thought they were safe.
<!--quoteo(post=2023545:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:13 PM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Nov 14 2012, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention by the time you see a gorge with bilebomb your team will have had the opportunity to have the tech to straight counter it without even jumping on the RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been in games in the beta where that hasn't been the case. You can get bile bomb very quickly, much faster than jetpacks. And the gorge can still fall back to its ladder and bile bomb.
I've just had really terrible experiences in nanogrid with bile bombing from the vent, that's all. It's not impossible to counter, but a smart gorge will make it a royal PITA, and the power might well go down before marines are able to react.
<!--quoteo(post=2023655:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:53 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 14 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've just had really terrible experiences in nanogrid with bile bombing from the vent, that's all. It's not impossible to counter, but a smart gorge will make it a royal PITA, and the power might well go down before marines are able to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was most likely me. Began using it just after UWE fixed clogs so that the number 11 you built it would kill number 1. A good gorge will kill the power and prevent marines from holding nano up until the gl comes out. However, I smart marine will get into that vent and kill the gorge bile bombing nano, it's hard but not impossible and they can do it by themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=2023149:date=Nov 14 2012, 08:54 AM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Nov 14 2012, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my mind there are only 2 problem vents that are pretty broken with marines jumping into.
1# West Skylights on Veil. <snip>
2# Vent from Onos Bar to Locker Room on Docking. <snip><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed with those two completely, though I think the Maintenance exit for the Sub Access vent needs to be moved as well. If you're using it to flank marines pushing in to Sub, guess where you pop out? Typically (if your team is doing okay at pushing them back) in the middle of them, or even in front of them (guess where the armoury is). It also faces Ventilation, so you can be shot at from way back there by reinforcing marines as well. It's also one of those ones that's easy for a lone marine to get in (either from Sub or Maintenance). I've seen plenty of Rambos use the Maintenance entrance to pop out in Sub and harass the RT...
It should be moved to the <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=108311105" target="_blank">north end of the room</a>, near the ceiling, either facing the door to Crossroads or above the unused door. Easier flanking, possibly harder for a lone marine to get in to, but still easy enough with a boost (so those Rambos can still harass that RT, they just need help now). It could even potentially connect with the short Crossroads vent (especially if it exits above the unused door).
<!--quoteo(post=2023019:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:28 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 14 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Veil is pretty bad yes, and I personally don't like anything except skulks and lerks in vents, but it's the way it is.
Also, not too many have learned the gorge in double (nano) on veil trick yet, which is good, because that's THE most annoying crap that is in the game.
Basically, you go gorge in the vent on veil (I think you have to jump to evolve, lol?) and then you can build a clog ladder to get to the top of it and then bilebomb the power outside of LOS. Same can be done in subsector, but it's a bit more difficult. Jetpacks make this meaningless though, but if jetpacks aren't out, double is going down for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then get 1 Marine in the vent from est/west and kill the gorge from below?
What's wrong with a bit of Marine acrobatics leading to vent exploration? If you've got some annoying lerk camping in there and machine-gunning the power node WHICH IS DIRECTLY OPPOSITE, it should be within our rights as marines to jump in there and teach him a lesson lol!
I have never seen it turn the tide of battle.
My favorite is when the marines form a tower to get the one at the top into the hard-to-reach vents. Classic.
Please leave the vents alone and instead ask for more maps for us to play on :)
<!--quoteo(post=2023655:date=Nov 14 2012, 10:53 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 14 2012, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've just had really terrible experiences in nanogrid with bile bombing from the vent, that's all. It's not impossible to counter, but a smart gorge will make it a royal PITA, and the power might well go down before marines are able to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was already possible in NS1, and always used it. Actually it's really easy to counter as a marine once the gorge is detected.
As a skulk I kill about 60-70% of marines that I encounter in the vents. The problem is that most skulks just run right at the marines which is the same problem they have outside the vents.
The vent marine is an intresting species. Not much is know about these vent loving creatures as they spend much of their time in vents as they don't like open, well lit areas. All i can say is be on the watch for such a specimen when skulking around down in them vents.
<!--quoteo(post=2023930:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:15 PM:name=PowerfuryOA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PowerfuryOA @ Nov 14 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hypothesis: UWE is going to make HL3 and they are practicing human vent exploration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2023942:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:25 PM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Nov 14 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was already possible in NS1, and always used it. Actually it's really easy to counter as a marine once the gorge is detected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Unfortunately with the huge influx of new NS players - I just had a game where both the marine team AND alien team proceeded to call me a cheater for "glitching" my way into the nano-gridlock vents, where I proceeded to go gorge.
I told everyone the marines have answers to vent gorges (JPs, GLs, hell even mines). Other aliens defended the marines with "its too early for them to have JPs" (it wasn't - marines had 2 chairs AND a proto in nano). GLs are still an option - which their comm didn't research (also apparently my fault). Or mines. Or good-old fashioned teamwork (my fault again for forcing that on them). One player was actually REALLY angry at me for doing that - I'm talking constant harassment the next 3 games. Never laughed so hard in my life.
Back on topic though: Marines in vents is laughable. You're not forced into confronting the marines in many situations as a skulk. A marine in the vent is one of those optional things. Go hit their base or RTs or something, the rest of the map does exist.
<!--quoteo(post=2024187:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Zero7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zero7 @ Nov 14 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Back on topic though: Marines in vents is laughable. You're not forced into confronting the marines in many situations as a skulk. A marine in the vent is one of those optional things. Go hit their base or RTs or something, the rest of the map does exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes the rest of the map does exist but when a gorge is bile bombing from a vent or thru it, a marine should not be able to jump and jump again to get in it. For example I’m a gorge bile bombing thru the vent at repair on Tram and with some skill I’m avoiding the constant barrage of gl spam since they have don’t have jet packs yet. I’m taking out what I can, then some marine jumps on some little edge and jumps in the vent and kills me.
That little edge was not there in build 225 or before I believe. Again in Tram the vent at north tunnels there was a ladder that was vertical but didn’t work so 1 patch later it was at a slant (A slant means marines and every other life form that should not be able to climb walls but from physics can).
<!--quoteo(post=2024187:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Zero7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zero7 @ Nov 14 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're not forced into confronting the marines in many situations as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back to the topic: That’s what the vents are for.
<!--quoteo(post=2022999:date=Nov 14 2012, 06:06 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Nov 14 2012, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would love to play with a few UWE players (who wouldn't love to sit on the Hughnicorn) and watch me get into a vent of their choosing. While there are a few vents marines can't get into, there aren't many.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was marine trickjumping most of the maps today. Honestly, I think this was intentional. There's a few spots I got to that required super technical jumps that took me a good few minutes to figure out, but the vents are all pretty accessible without having to do anything super absurd, with a few exceptions of course.
Some of the maps are better than others when it comes to this. There's some maps that have some super cool trick jumps that I'm pretty sure were intentionally put the way they are. Things align just a little too nicely to be purely random.
<!--quoteo(post=2024235:date=Nov 15 2012, 01:59 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Nov 15 2012, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes the rest of the map does exist but when a gorge is bile bombing from a vent or thru it, a marine should not be able to jump and jump again to get in it. For example I’m a gorge bile bombing thru the vent at repair on Tram and with some skill I’m avoiding the constant barrage of gl spam since they have don’t have jet packs yet. I’m taking out what I can, then some marine jumps on some little edge and jumps in the vent and kills me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I highly disagree with this. Gorges should have no guarantee of invulnerability at any position in the map convenient for bilebomb. That was a HUGE balance issue in NS1 for some maps. They should have to rely on support from their team.
Hive 2 is MUCH easier in NS2, marines should never be required to get jetpacks to defend a res node or a tech point.
<!--quoteo(post=2024235:date=Nov 15 2012, 02:59 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Nov 15 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes the rest of the map does exist but when a gorge is bile bombing from a vent or thru it, a marine should not be able to jump and jump again to get in it. For example I’m a gorge bile bombing thru the vent at repair on Tram and with some skill I’m avoiding the constant barrage of gl spam since they have don’t have jet packs yet. I’m taking out what I can, then some marine jumps on some little edge and jumps in the vent and kills me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much what Swifty said. Vents should not be guaranteed protection. The day NS2 gets a solid-guaranteed safe-spot for ANY side is the day I quit playing. I didn't get NS2 just to play ns_siege007 all day, even if it was fun once in a blue moon.
<!--quoteo(post=2024242:date=Nov 15 2012, 03:09 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 15 2012, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I highly disagree with this. Gorges should have no guarantee of invulnerability at any position in the map convenient for bilebomb. That was a HUGE balance issue in NS1 for some maps. They should have to rely on support from their team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2024235:date=Nov 15 2012, 02:59 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Nov 15 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Back to the topic: That’s what the vents are for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Vents are to facilitate quicker movement throughout the map. In some cases they also provide a more tactical position. They are not SOLELY for you to avoid conflict. If they were, mappers would ensure that marines had 0 access to every vent in their maps. They would also probably ensure they didn't give you easy access to tactical positions. Rather, I imagine every vent would just be through the floor and coming up in some remote and useless room or corridor if that's what vents were truly for.
But you already knew this, since you mentioned bile-bombing from a vent. So the only conclusion I can thus draw is: it just sounds like you want to execute solo-cheese even EASIER. And no, dodging GL spam in a vent isn't hard.
Comments
I definitely agree that it's too easy for marines to access many vents, especially on veil. It should be possible to get a marine inside a vent, but you should have to put some effort into it by having to "boost" another marine in (crouching and letting them jump on you).
Well the solution is simple for the west skylight vent then... remove the prop that allows it :\
The problem isn't that marines can enter vents, it's that they can enter too many vents at the start of the game without any assistance. (Friends, mines, jetpacks.)
Raise some of the vents beyond normal marine accessibility and the chances of seeing a marine in a vent drop greatly. Completely blocking vents off from Marines the entire game creates an unfair safe haven aliens could continue to hide and camp from.
Also, not too many have learned the gorge in double (nano) on veil trick yet, which is good, because that's THE most annoying crap that is in the game.
Basically, you go gorge in the vent on veil (I think you have to jump to evolve, lol?) and then you can build a clog ladder to get to the top of it and then bilebomb the power outside of LOS. Same can be done in subsector, but it's a bit more difficult. Jetpacks make this meaningless though, but if jetpacks aren't out, double is going down for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The best counter to that is have two marines stack. The top marine can see into the vent and shoot the gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=2023032:date=Nov 14 2012, 04:36 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 14 2012, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or grenade launchers... which is a whole 20 resources from the commander and gives a guaranteed 10 pres kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gernade launchers have both research cost and the cost to buy. More than fair to kill a 10 pres alien. Even a 30 pres alien.
Also, not too many have learned the gorge in double (nano) on veil trick yet, which is good, because that's THE most annoying crap that is in the game.
Basically, you go gorge in the vent on veil (I think you have to jump to evolve, lol?) and then you can build a clog ladder to get to the top of it and then bilebomb the power outside of LOS. Same can be done in subsector, but it's a bit more difficult. Jetpacks make this meaningless though, but if jetpacks aren't out, double is going down for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can get LOS on the vents in nanogrid by jumping on the RT.
Also, you can get into the Skylights vent without jumping on the prop, its just a bit trickier to go straight in.
Also, you can get into the Skylights vent without jumping on the prop, its just a bit trickier to go straight in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention by the time you see a gorge with bilebomb your team will have had the opportunity to have the tech to straight counter it without even jumping on the RT.
Good idea in theory but parasite doesn’t last that long. The idea of the vent is to have a safe way to get up close to the marine or go around them.
<!--quoteo(post=2023232:date=Nov 14 2012, 07:47 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Nov 14 2012, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of marines being able to access certain vents with the help of a buddy giving them a boost. It adds a nice element of teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be cool, it worked well in NS1 and it does build teamwork. But as it now stands a lone marine can jump crouch into almost every vent in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2023332:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:24 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Nov 14 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Raise some of the vents beyond normal marine accessibility and the chances of seeing a marine in a vent drop greatly. Completely blocking vents off from Marines the entire game creates an unfair safe haven aliens could continue to hide and camp from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely blocking vents off from a single marine would be better. Now don’t get me wrong, I love to get into vents and I love camping them. I can rack up 3 to 10 kills before aliens give up and run right into my few buddies in the hall.
<!--quoteo(post=2023545:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:13 PM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Nov 14 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention by the time you see a gorge with bilebomb your team will have had the opportunity to have the tech to straight counter it without even jumping on the RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE can’t comprehend this way of thinking, hence they put the half down doors in sub access on veil.
So as it stands now UWE doesn’t know how to fix the physics of the game to not allow the marines to climb wall. So instead change a few props in the game to make it at least a little bit harder for marines to get into vents. One idea would to place power nodes father away from vents so that marines can’t hop on the power node and just walk right in.
It’s just wrong for skulk rushes to fail cause some marine put a few mines in a vent 30 feet off the ground where the skulks thought they were safe.
I've been in games in the beta where that hasn't been the case. You can get bile bomb very quickly, much faster than jetpacks. And the gorge can still fall back to its ladder and bile bomb.
I've just had really terrible experiences in nanogrid with bile bombing from the vent, that's all. It's not impossible to counter, but a smart gorge will make it a royal PITA, and the power might well go down before marines are able to react.
That was most likely me. Began using it just after UWE fixed clogs so that the number 11 you built it would kill number 1. A good gorge will kill the power and prevent marines from holding nano up until the gl comes out. However, I smart marine will get into that vent and kill the gorge bile bombing nano, it's hard but not impossible and they can do it by themselves.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXo1SC3PHOg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXo1SC3PHOg</a>
1# West Skylights on Veil. <snip>
2# Vent from Onos Bar to Locker Room on Docking. <snip><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed with those two completely, though I think the Maintenance exit for the Sub Access vent needs to be moved as well. If you're using it to flank marines pushing in to Sub, guess where you pop out? Typically (if your team is doing okay at pushing them back) in the middle of them, or even in front of them (guess where the armoury is). It also faces Ventilation, so you can be shot at from way back there by reinforcing marines as well. It's also one of those ones that's easy for a lone marine to get in (either from Sub or Maintenance). I've seen plenty of Rambos use the Maintenance entrance to pop out in Sub and harass the RT...
It should be moved to the <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=108311105" target="_blank">north end of the room</a>, near the ceiling, either facing the door to Crossroads or above the unused door. Easier flanking, possibly harder for a lone marine to get in to, but still easy enough with a boost (so those Rambos can still harass that RT, they just need help now). It could even potentially connect with the short Crossroads vent (especially if it exits above the unused door).
Also, not too many have learned the gorge in double (nano) on veil trick yet, which is good, because that's THE most annoying crap that is in the game.
Basically, you go gorge in the vent on veil (I think you have to jump to evolve, lol?) and then you can build a clog ladder to get to the top of it and then bilebomb the power outside of LOS. Same can be done in subsector, but it's a bit more difficult. Jetpacks make this meaningless though, but if jetpacks aren't out, double is going down for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then get 1 Marine in the vent from est/west and kill the gorge from below?
What's wrong with a bit of Marine acrobatics leading to vent exploration? If you've got some annoying lerk camping in there and machine-gunning the power node WHICH IS DIRECTLY OPPOSITE, it should be within our rights as marines to jump in there and teach him a lesson lol!
I have never seen it turn the tide of battle.
My favorite is when the marines form a tower to get the one at the top into the hard-to-reach vents. Classic.
Please leave the vents alone and instead ask for more maps for us to play on :)
It was already possible in NS1, and always used it. Actually it's really easy to counter as a marine once the gorge is detected.
Which human vent are you talking about?
This. Unfortunately with the huge influx of new NS players - I just had a game where both the marine team AND alien team proceeded to call me a cheater for "glitching" my way into the nano-gridlock vents, where I proceeded to go gorge.
I told everyone the marines have answers to vent gorges (JPs, GLs, hell even mines). Other aliens defended the marines with "its too early for them to have JPs" (it wasn't - marines had 2 chairs AND a proto in nano). GLs are still an option - which their comm didn't research (also apparently my fault). Or mines. Or good-old fashioned teamwork (my fault again for forcing that on them). One player was actually REALLY angry at me for doing that - I'm talking constant harassment the next 3 games. Never laughed so hard in my life.
Back on topic though: Marines in vents is laughable. You're not forced into confronting the marines in many situations as a skulk. A marine in the vent is one of those optional things. Go hit their base or RTs or something, the rest of the map does exist.
Yes the rest of the map does exist but when a gorge is bile bombing from a vent or thru it, a marine should not be able to jump and jump again to get in it. For example I’m a gorge bile bombing thru the vent at repair on Tram and with some skill I’m avoiding the constant barrage of gl spam since they have don’t have jet packs yet. I’m taking out what I can, then some marine jumps on some little edge and jumps in the vent and kills me.
That little edge was not there in build 225 or before I believe. Again in Tram the vent at north tunnels there was a ladder that was vertical but didn’t work so 1 patch later it was at a slant (A slant means marines and every other life form that should not be able to climb walls but from physics can).
<!--quoteo(post=2024187:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Zero7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zero7 @ Nov 14 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're not forced into confronting the marines in many situations as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back to the topic: That’s what the vents are for.
I was marine trickjumping most of the maps today. Honestly, I think this was intentional. There's a few spots I got to that required super technical jumps that took me a good few minutes to figure out, but the vents are all pretty accessible without having to do anything super absurd, with a few exceptions of course.
Some of the maps are better than others when it comes to this. There's some maps that have some super cool trick jumps that I'm pretty sure were intentionally put the way they are. Things align just a little too nicely to be purely random.
I highly disagree with this. Gorges should have no guarantee of invulnerability at any position in the map convenient for bilebomb. That was a HUGE balance issue in NS1 for some maps. They should have to rely on support from their team.
Hive 2 is MUCH easier in NS2, marines should never be required to get jetpacks to defend a res node or a tech point.
Pretty much what Swifty said. Vents should not be guaranteed protection. The day NS2 gets a solid-guaranteed safe-spot for ANY side is the day I quit playing. I didn't get NS2 just to play ns_siege007 all day, even if it was fun once in a blue moon.
<!--quoteo(post=2024242:date=Nov 15 2012, 03:09 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 15 2012, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I highly disagree with this. Gorges should have no guarantee of invulnerability at any position in the map convenient for bilebomb. That was a HUGE balance issue in NS1 for some maps. They should have to rely on support from their team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2024235:date=Nov 15 2012, 02:59 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Nov 15 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Back to the topic: That’s what the vents are for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Vents are to facilitate quicker movement throughout the map. In some cases they also provide a more tactical position. They are not SOLELY for you to avoid conflict. If they were, mappers would ensure that marines had 0 access to every vent in their maps. They would also probably ensure they didn't give you easy access to tactical positions. Rather, I imagine every vent would just be through the floor and coming up in some remote and useless room or corridor if that's what vents were truly for.
But you already knew this, since you mentioned bile-bombing from a vent. So the only conclusion I can thus draw is: it just sounds like you want to execute solo-cheese even EASIER. And no, dodging GL spam in a vent isn't hard.