This game is so ripe for the modding, why isn't there somebody running a git repo of the lua code and working with 'the balance team' on a 'beta balance mod' running dedicated on a 'beta balance server' while the devs just stick to maintaining/fixing and sometimes balancing broken things? Is JavaScript er LUA really that tall of a fence to hop over?
So you made a new account just to troll? Do you actually hate doing fun and productive things with your life? I don't get it. Or is it some sort of superiority high you're getting out of this?
<!--quoteo(post=2029595:date=Nov 19 2012, 08:30 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Nov 19 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the past has proven that no one plays those balance mods.
So it's a waste of time for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the balance mods receive feedback from anyone who decides to download it from the steam workshop, not a collective focus group
<!--quoteo(post=2029953:date=Nov 20 2012, 10:51 PM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Nov 20 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread was a success! Longer patch dev cycles where balance is looked at carefully! We're being listened to and NS2 has a bright future! Wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> now to explain to them how to fix walljumping
Balance mods are a waste because the results dont matter, the second foray into balance mods that I made managed to fix countless balance issues within the game, and was generally regarded by players as a distinct improvement over the balance in NS2. Some players did not always agree with all of the changes, and there was also the fact that I tried to stay within the realm of changes that were feasible and adhered to current NS2 mechanics, which did make certain aspects of balance more difficult/not complete (like lerk). After all that work and countless gathers, nothing could be said for the results garnered.
You need several balance teams to account for the skill levels. Basically you need to pick up all your testers, make them play for hours in random team and then rank them by some metrics. Separate them in 3 skill groups. Then the tester would play only with people of their group.
You can adopt different approaches, you can be very directive and make tester play specific strategies (for example if you want to balance the alien upgrades, you need each team to play 20 games with each upgrade first) or just let people play what they want and try to sort out the results after the fact, the later being more prone to social effects (people imitating each other, ...) and other kind of problems.
Something like this could be easily implemented by having some matchmaking system that check for skill levels and has a couple of basic rules.
In theory the current statistics (including players stats like in ns2stats) could allow to distinguish the effect of skill, player counts and other confounding factors, as the numbers of game are rather large. You need someone with some knowledge of statistics to do that.
A problem is that a lot of people seriously dislike some mechanics (power nodes, no res while dead, ..) irrespective of balance. It's kind of pointless to balance a game around bad mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=2030488:date=Nov 20 2012, 04:39 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 20 2012, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need several balance teams to account for the skill levels. Basically you need to pick up all your testers, make them play for hours in random team and then rank them by some metrics. Separate them in 3 skill groups. Then the tester would play only with people of their group.
You can adopt different approaches, you can be very directive and make tester play specific strategies (for example if you want to balance the alien upgrades, you need each team to play 20 games with each upgrade first) or just let people play what they want and try to sort out the results after the fact, the later being more prone to social effects (people imitating each other, ...) and other kind of problems.
Something like this could be easily implemented by having some matchmaking system that check for skill levels and has a couple of basic rules.
In theory the current statistics (including players stats like in ns2stats) could allow to distinguish the effect of skill, player counts and other confounding factors, as the numbers of game are rather large. You need someone with some knowledge of statistics to do that.
A problem is that a lot of people seriously dislike some mechanics (power nodes, no res while dead, ..) irrespective of balance. It's kind of pointless to balance a game around bad mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I think a matchmaking system would definitely help contribute to statistical analysis based on levels of play its redundant to have both that and outside leagues like ENSL when you can just pull information from something already in place. With that said balancing a game needs a focal point in which to balance around and in a game like this where we all want it to succeed it needs to start in the competitive scene.
Aside from that near all the emerging strategies will form in competitive play and that is where the game is really pushed to see what is broken, whats just good, and what is weak. I guess what I am trying to say is that serious competition brings out the best and worst in a game and UWE should at the very least listen and consider what the people involved in all of that have to say.
Also, To me these random things (regen changes) that aren't documented and even things that are (Shift egg change) are really confusing to the average player like myself.
<!--quoteo(post=2029374:date=Nov 19 2012, 07:18 PM:name=Gilgas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gilgas @ Nov 19 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game is in dangerous need of a balance team. It might not be possible to balance the game both ways when it comes to public players and competetive players. Starcraft 2 has a great system where they have arcade maps that people who are uninterested in the main aspect (the rts aspect) of the game can go and play what is essentially mini-games. On top of that, something else that separates how balanced the game is between players is the fact that there is a matchmaking system; which would be both good and bad to implement here. The matchmaking system matches people of similar skill-levels, ping and other criteria. This means that if you're in bronze league, you will only ever play against people of bronze league skill until you advance to the next league.
I am not suggesting we should have matchmaking in this game, I think it would take too much time and money to implement. But if it was implemented, then the matchmaking would be what we should draw statistics from to balance the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would consider matchmaking and a tutorial one of the most important additions needed in the process of modernizing a game with a steep learning curve and high skill ceiling. It is the best way to please both casual and competitive players. SC, CS, dota, and mmos with pvp do this because they know there's no way to please a large audience of varying skill ranges without offering to section them off.
<!--quoteo(post=2029374:date=Nov 19 2012, 07:18 PM:name=Gilgas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gilgas @ Nov 19 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That brings me to a second point:
A balance team.
We need a team of players, who are NOT playtesters, whose role is not just to search for bugs, but people who play the game and assess the game balance. I think that this is crucial to the game if it is to survive and have any form of success as an e-sport. If the game does not get balanced well enough competetive players will not take it seriously and might leave the game. The problem here is that balancing is a double-edged sword. Balance needs to be done carefully and in a very considered manner. That means we need to have a team of people who play the game and who are smart enough to understand the repercussions of changes across the board.
Balancing is one of the hardest parts when it comes to multiplayer games. Starcraft 2 is helped by its matchmaking system in this respect. It's quite safe to say that you won't be steamrolled by someone who've put a thousand hours into playing terran after doing your placement matches. People will play on equal footing and so Blizzard can make the balance changes that are necessary without having to worry about public and competetive players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Matchmaking will also help with balancing. A competitive balance team should be created with playtesters double checking to make sure things don't fall apart at lower levels of play. The balance team should have ns2 competitive players with a good portion of them having high level ns1 experience for a strong perspective on how changes will affect the game. It shouldn't be diffucult to get good balance input with players like dux on the dev team and hugh interacting with with the teams.
<!--quoteo(post=2030891:date=Nov 21 2012, 04:19 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Nov 21 2012, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would consider matchmaking and a tutorial one of the most important additions needed in the process of modernizing a game with a steep learning curve and high skill ceiling. It is the best way to please both casual and competitive players. SC, CS, dota, and mmos with pvp do this because they know there's no way to please a large audience of varying skill ranges without offering to section them off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly I would like to see what UWE do with their "internal gather system" I honestly now believe that the main reason I deteste pubs is because the majority of the people in them do not understand the very basics of stratergy within NS. Those few mins at the start of a game where as a team you decide your focus points, your build order and your overall strat for the game make a huge diference. Every new person we get in gathers is confused in their first pre-game, they dont understand what your saying and we break it down simply for them, this is evidence that despite the number of pubs they have played they still dont know the strats because essentially their is no "strat" in pubs, its just "do as the comm says... please..."
I think perhaps a 6v6 gather, 8v8 gather and maybe even a 10v10 gather could be quite popular (some people just like big games guys, we cant avoid that) and this would give an outlet for the people in the "middle-ground" who dont want to 6v6 gather but dont want disorganised lol####ery that currently is public gaming. :)
But thats just my oppinion.
As to balance, we played Mint vs Duplex otherday and Flayra showed up to watch us (he saw the rounds we got trounced in not the one we actually won :( )... Sounded like Flayra but I was still astonished it was actually him, I have been told its common for him to come watch Duplex play, so the Devs care... He even accepted that shift eggs still need work... I personally feel I have not given UWE as much credit as they deserve.
They have made an epic game that I am willing to spend alot of time played to better myself and my team, they are willing to keep altering the game to make it better for myself and myteam... What more can I ask for! :D
I don't think overarching matchmaking will work in NS2. I think the player base is too small (even breaking 5k+ concurrent players at times) to properly divide up players based on rating. And then you have the problem with actually rating players. There are no good rating systems for individual players in team oriented games. It's very hard to rate how effective a gorge was versus, say, an onos. Or how effective the commanders were.
I do think a gather system is a great addition to the game. Many players already know about ENSL.org's system -- and have been using it. Over the past week, I've frequently seen 2 gathers going at the same time, specially during NA times. A good in game gather system could reach even more potential players who don't want to (or know how to) use ENSL's third party site. A good idea here might be a way for UWE to team up with ENSL to feed more people to the gather system that is already set up. ENSL does a very good job with the pick up games.
just my 2c, i have been somewhat disappointed in the reactionary and sometimes clueless balance changes the dev team have implemented. It's like they've been trudging along for 10 years but haven't learned from their mistakes. Every single time there's a balance problem or perceived balance problem, even one that needs a very minor tuning, there's always a 300% change in 4-5 values where only a minor tweak to a single variable was needed, and then a quick walking back of the changes because they broke the game.
please, for the love of god UWE: learn some subtlety!!! don't you realize that minor things can completely change a game?
i mean seriously, come on now. also, please stop using the justification "it's too hard for new players" to defend things like armory healing armor. you could have taken ns1 mechanics (which are much harder than ns2) and paired them with a ranking/matchmaking system for new players, and all your learning curve problems would be gone.
<<lazy to search for the answer on this forum, so someone who was around ns2 for long could explain in a sentence or two why:
*Exo's can't use PG? *Exo's are not beaconed to the bases? *Beacon doesn't spawn ALL marines including dead to the base? *Scan is now using TRes, rather than Obs. having energy? *Mines blow even if you don't touch them (jump over/stay close. There was a mod in ns1 on some pubs with the laser-mines, which was not accepted by competitive scene AT ALL)? *Mines blow other mines, that are located close by? *Nanoshields instead of Catalysts? *Nanoshields can shield structures? *Parasites don't apply onto the structures? *What was the purpose of implementing a flame-thrower that is being used only in pubs (rare), whereas everything else is viable in pubs and competitive? *No grenades? *Dropped RT is exact same HP as it was build to, not scaling it to fullhp? (so the marine who was building an RT dies, and the RT was build to 33% - it will have 33% hp, in comparison to ns1 100% hp?) *
I'm looking for proper reasoning on those points to understand why the those decisions were made in oppose to adopting (and slightly changing if required?) something that worked for long years?
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Exo's can't use PG? *Exo's are not beaconed to the bases?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Exos have huge firepower and a drawback like this creates an interesting dynamic in the game where you need to sacrifice Exo support to save your base, though right now the Exo in general is not properly balanced out yet for competitive play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Beacon doesn't spawn ALL marines including dead to the base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Basically this created problems with spammability and really furthered the spawn system imbalance even more (right now 2 marines can egg-lock the aliens, while marines will at least still spawn even when IPs are camped and can do at least some damage, especially if the comm logs out at the correct time). It is less of a problem now that it costs team resources and could be added back, but I generally think it could turn out to be too powerful to be able to instantly reinforce your team. This may be remedied by making it cost more, but that would make alien base rushes even more crippling than they are already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Scan is now using TRes, rather than Obs. having energy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't see any reason why the one is better than the other. Energy limits use over time (as long as you don't get multiple obs), but TRes use promotes more careful thinking about when to scan. I prefer the latter personally.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Mines blow other mines, that are located close by?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Err. Can you even imagine how bad the mine spam fest would be without this? Mine spam is pretty frustrating already and this is definitely a good thing and also promotes thinking (mine placement is actually skillful to some extent!).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*What was the purpose of implementing a flame-thrower that is being used only in pubs (rare), whereas everything else is viable in pubs and competitive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Really? Not being used is not an intentional purpose of a feature. It is not used because it is not properly balanced yet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Parasites don't apply onto the structures?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This was a result of hivesight being removed/reworked (probably due to screen clutter?). It's not hugely important and doesn't really serve any purpose.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Nanoshields instead of Catalysts? *Nanoshields can shield structures?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm not sure if Catalysts will be in the game some day but it was definitely planned. Nanoshields are not a "replacement". Why can they shield structures? Why not?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Dropped RT is exact same HP as it was build to, not scaling it to fullhp? (so the marine who was building an RT dies, and the RT was build to 33% - it will have 33% hp, in comparison to ns1 100% hp?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You seem to overthink some things. The building RT health might actually not be an intentional change away from NS1 but rather just how they ended up implementing it. I doubt this was the trademark feature of NS1 making it a good game. I personally feel like this is the correct way of doing it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Mines blow even if you don't touch them (jump over/stay close. There was a mod in ns1 on some pubs with the laser-mines, which was not accepted by competitive scene AT ALL)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It might be a bit too easy to avoid mines without this and also too hard to get rid of them without a lerk. Laser mines which killed you from 20m distance were really silly imo.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*No grenades?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know. That's just how it is right now. NS2 was never intended to be a 1:1 copy of NS1 so some stuff will go missing on the way, sometimes even without any reason.
An excellent point-by-point explanation, Dghelneshi, though I would add to bHack that this thread really isn't the place to discuss such things and that a new thread would be an expedient and appropriate way to discuss these and any future questions.
Everything you say is terrible, so I figured I'd help you out here and run down your crazy real quick:
<!--quoteo(post=2032700:date=Nov 23 2012, 01:20 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Nov 23 2012, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exos have huge firepower and a drawback like this creates an interesting dynamic in the game where you need to sacrifice Exo support to save your base, though right now the Exo in general is not properly balanced out yet for competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos will never be interesting in competition, and are a core part of why NS2 is a competitive stillbirth. Even if you make them viable, if you insist on all these restrictions you're going to make them viable in exactly one way, the way they are now (run the straight-up superlate doomtrain with a hidden Armslab and mow down hives without ever stopping, just redropping enough CCs to not trigger the lose condition).
Worst of all, they go against what it means to be a game, not a fantasy-world-simulator. A game lets players do interesting things, like move, avoid, trick and aim. An Exo or Onos lets neither you nor the opponent do any of those things - for everyone involved it is the most skill-less thing imaginable. Exos vs Onos & Gorge is pretty much what is wrong-est with NS2 in a nutshell.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically this created problems with spammability and really furthered the spawn system imbalance even more (right now 2 marines can egg-lock the aliens, while marines will at least still spawn even when IPs are camped and can do at least some damage, especially if the comm logs out at the correct time). It is less of a problem now that it costs team resources and could be added back, but I generally think it could turn out to be too powerful to be able to instantly reinforce your team. This may be remedied by making it cost more, but that would make alien base rushes even more crippling than they are already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alien spawn system was made into a total joke, therefore beacon was removed along with phasegates being worse. So that we can have all the problems of PG-meatgrinders and spawncamps with none of the fun bits. ###### brilliant, holy ######.
Next you'll tell me they implemented IP knockback on spawn that you can either avoid by being above it or simply use as momentum to walljump and come right back / kill the logging comm.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see any reason why the one is better than the other. Energy limits use over time (as long as you don't get multiple obs), but TRes use promotes more careful thinking about when to scan. I prefer the latter personally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This one is not a terribly big deal, but you're pretty much a bad liar if you think it's anything besides being made vastly more expensive. That said, the proper joke with NS2 scans are the sprites drawn even when the target is in line of sight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Err. Can you even imagine how bad the mine spam fest would be without this? Mine spam is pretty frustrating already and this is definitely a good thing and also promotes thinking (mine placement is actually skillful to some extent!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not, and minespam is a problem a) because tres/pres split is stupid as ###### for both teams b) proximity detonation is a feature invented by an inbred turd that hates aliens. The first part means there are certain things/techs/approaches that you have to use because otherwise PRes is sitting around during key parts of the game or you're bottlenecked at TRes - there really isn't anything on the tech tree besides mines that is as necessary in as many ways and as cheap because of that system. The second bit is just dumb and makes mines effective area denial - mutual detonation along with proximity fuses only makes them better at securing a spot to snipe a hive/rt/upgrade from without much viable recourse at the point where mines first show up. Gorges and a single early-Lerk are infinitely easier to snipe than the mines, and by the P/TRes system also carry a much higher cost than "effectively ###### free".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? Not being used is not an intentional purpose of a feature. It is not used because it is not properly balanced yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Visual clutter for minimal effect is pretty much designed to not be used. Visual clarity is a prime resource in NS unless you are so bad it's a ###### crime. The GL can get away with it because it's not a fraction as obtrusive as a flamethrower and a million times more useful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was a result of hivesight being removed/reworked (probably due to screen clutter?). It's not hugely important and doesn't really serve any purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hivesight: Not hugely important. You heard it here first folks.
At least we won't need those, because hives are so low and the game so damn easy we can just shoot the aliens on top of the hive. Depending on whether crags are currently too strong or too weak, of course.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if Catalysts will be in the game some day but it was definitely planned. Nanoshields are not a "replacement". Why can they shield structures? Why not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you joking? Are you pretending to be obtuse? While one is in and the other is not, nanoshields are effectively a replacement. That's what being a replacement is, being there in place of something else. And nanoshields are yet another bad and unfun idea - providing effective invulnerability on demand for structures removes one of the few key alien comeback mechanisms. Structure biting was already the least skillful, least fun part of NS1 - making it worse, more exposed and counterable by clicking on a thing is pretty much a giant, flying F-you to the player.
Not to mention how much worse it is what it does to marines. Armor itself was already one of the biggest reasons marine power scaled so well - A1 with 1 med is twice the effective HP vs skulks than A0 that took a para/scratch (4 vs 2 bites). A2 is 4 bites without a single med, A3 is again 5 with 1 or 6 with 2. Those are gigantic spans of time it starts taking skulks to kill people and that lower the requirements of playerskill on the marine side and dampen it's effects on the alien side. Now Nanoshield comes along and doubles all of this. Twelve bites for what is effectively just as expensive as straight medspam.
Yeah, let me see if I can kill this slow-biting, magnified-model Skulk that can't bunnyhop before he bites my mate TWELVE TIMES.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might be a bit too easy to avoid mines without this and also too hard to get rid of them without a lerk. Laser mines which killed you from 20m distance were really silly imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mines are always easy to avoid, even with proximity fuses. That's not the point. The point is what they stop you from doing, and the larger the detonation area the more things they stop you from doing. Touch-det mines are fine precisely because good marining doesn't let aliens chose fights - you show up and man up or you lose a key structure.
But again, the more important part is how it plays. Large swaths of "do not step here" does not play well at all. At the heart of the matter lies making a good shooter, and NS2 right now is anything but. The only question that anyone asks before they boot up a game is "do I get to do fun ######" - like directly fighting players and improving on a myriad of minor skills. You cannot compel people to play a game that is inherently lame and uninteresting, no matter how balanced it ends up being.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Exo's can't use PG? *Exo's are not beaconed to the bases? *Beacon doesn't spawn ALL marines including dead to the base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The numerous limitations on exo practicality are basically the only way balance out their insane HP and damage values. You can also add "can't build or weld" to that list.
Heavy armor marine gameplay was one of the weakest parts of NS1 gameplay. Exo gameplay in NS2 is unfortunately even worse, but at least we don't have to suffer it in competitive play since JPs scale infinitely better with skill.
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Scan is now using TRes, rather than Obs. having energy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There was a period during the beta when they were experimenting a lot with different resource systems, namely a distinction between tres/pres/energy. The problem then was that they put too many functions on energy, including beacon, severely limiting their use. This led to a lot of complaints on the forums, a significant amount of which from people who had no idea what they're talking about (so forum business as usual) who argued for a complete removal of energy. The devs eventually came around to that idea and completely removed energy from the game, which necessarily meant switching scans over to costing tres.
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Mines blow even if you don't touch them (jump over/stay close. There was a mod in ns1 on some pubs with the laser-mines, which was not accepted by competitive scene AT ALL)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what the justification for the mine detonation range was, but I personally find that it makes mines too powerful. The laser mine mod you talk about were actually a reproduction of the way mines worked during early versions of NS1 (1.0-1.04).
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Mines blow other mines, that are located close by?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mine spam prevention.
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*What was the purpose of implementing a flame-thrower that is being used only in pubs (rare), whereas everything else is viable in pubs and competitive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The flamethrower is actually very useful, but only in certain situations. It absolutely murders cysts (which can be game-deciding in some scenarios) and can be used for all-in hive pushes with jps (flamethrower damage stacks on hives, meaning if you can empty an entire clip into the hive before dying, it will do a ton of damage). Combine that stacking damage with a JP that allows the flamethrower to fly around the hive while almost being unhittable and you have a very powerful hive rush play. Except for double-minigun exos, a JP-flamer rush is the fastest way to kill a hive.
Considering that flamers generally make for frustrating and boring player vs. player combat, I think they're where they should be at the moment.
<!--quoteo(post=2032865:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:33 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 23 2012, 05:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower is actually very useful, but only in certain situations. It absolutely murders cysts (which can be game-deciding in some scenarios) and can be used for all-in hive pushes with jps (flamethrower damage stacks on hives, meaning if you can empty an entire clip into the hive before dying, it will do a ton of damage). Combine that stacking damage with a JP that allows the flamethrower to fly around the hive while almost being unhittable and you have a very powerful hive rush play. Except for double-minigun exos, a JP-flamer rush is the fastest way to kill a hive.
Considering that flamers generally make for frustrating and boring player vs. player combat, I think they're where they should be at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
So it's a waste of time for everyone.
But, eh..
So you made a new account just to troll? Do you actually hate doing fun and productive things with your life? I don't get it. Or is it some sort of superiority high you're getting out of this?
So it's a waste of time for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the balance mods receive feedback from anyone who decides to download it from the steam workshop, not a collective focus group
it's only a waste of time if you let it be one :>
Wait.
Wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
now to explain to them how to fix walljumping
You can adopt different approaches, you can be very directive and make tester play specific strategies (for example if you want to balance the alien upgrades, you need each team to play 20 games with each upgrade first) or just let people play what they want and try to sort out the results after the fact, the later being more prone to social effects (people imitating each other, ...) and other kind of problems.
Something like this could be easily implemented by having some matchmaking system that check for skill levels and has a couple of basic rules.
In theory the current statistics (including players stats like in ns2stats) could allow to distinguish the effect of skill, player counts and other confounding factors, as the numbers of game are rather large. You need someone with some knowledge of statistics to do that.
A problem is that a lot of people seriously dislike some mechanics (power nodes, no res while dead, ..) irrespective of balance. It's kind of pointless to balance a game around bad mechanics.
You can adopt different approaches, you can be very directive and make tester play specific strategies (for example if you want to balance the alien upgrades, you need each team to play 20 games with each upgrade first) or just let people play what they want and try to sort out the results after the fact, the later being more prone to social effects (people imitating each other, ...) and other kind of problems.
Something like this could be easily implemented by having some matchmaking system that check for skill levels and has a couple of basic rules.
In theory the current statistics (including players stats like in ns2stats) could allow to distinguish the effect of skill, player counts and other confounding factors, as the numbers of game are rather large. You need someone with some knowledge of statistics to do that.
A problem is that a lot of people seriously dislike some mechanics (power nodes, no res while dead, ..) irrespective of balance. It's kind of pointless to balance a game around bad mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I think a matchmaking system would definitely help contribute to statistical analysis based on levels of play its redundant to have both that and outside leagues like ENSL when you can just pull information from something already in place. With that said balancing a game needs a focal point in which to balance around and in a game like this where we all want it to succeed it needs to start in the competitive scene.
Aside from that near all the emerging strategies will form in competitive play and that is where the game is really pushed to see what is broken, whats just good, and what is weak. I guess what I am trying to say is that serious competition brings out the best and worst in a game and UWE should at the very least listen and consider what the people involved in all of that have to say.
Also, To me these random things (regen changes) that aren't documented and even things that are (Shift egg change) are really confusing to the average player like myself.
I am not suggesting we should have matchmaking in this game, I think it would take too much time and money to implement. But if it was implemented, then the matchmaking would be what we should draw statistics from to balance the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would consider matchmaking and a tutorial one of the most important additions needed in the process of modernizing a game with a steep learning curve and high skill ceiling. It is the best way to please both casual and competitive players. SC, CS, dota, and mmos with pvp do this because they know there's no way to please a large audience of varying skill ranges without offering to section them off.
<!--quoteo(post=2029374:date=Nov 19 2012, 07:18 PM:name=Gilgas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gilgas @ Nov 19 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That brings me to a second point:
A balance team.
We need a team of players, who are NOT playtesters, whose role is not just to search for bugs, but people who play the game and assess the game balance. I think that this is crucial to the game if it is to survive and have any form of success as an e-sport. If the game does not get balanced well enough competetive players will not take it seriously and might leave the game. The problem here is that balancing is a double-edged sword. Balance needs to be done carefully and in a very considered manner. That means we need to have a team of people who play the game and who are smart enough to understand the repercussions of changes across the board.
Balancing is one of the hardest parts when it comes to multiplayer games. Starcraft 2 is helped by its matchmaking system in this respect. It's quite safe to say that you won't be steamrolled by someone who've put a thousand hours into playing terran after doing your placement matches. People will play on equal footing and so Blizzard can make the balance changes that are necessary without having to worry about public and competetive players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Matchmaking will also help with balancing. A competitive balance team should be created with playtesters double checking to make sure things don't fall apart at lower levels of play. The balance team should have ns2 competitive players with a good portion of them having high level ns1 experience for a strong perspective on how changes will affect the game. It shouldn't be diffucult to get good balance input with players like dux on the dev team and hugh interacting with with the teams.
Honestly I would like to see what UWE do with their "internal gather system" I honestly now believe that the main reason I deteste pubs is because the majority of the people in them do not understand the very basics of stratergy within NS.
Those few mins at the start of a game where as a team you decide your focus points, your build order and your overall strat for the game make a huge diference.
Every new person we get in gathers is confused in their first pre-game, they dont understand what your saying and we break it down simply for them, this is evidence that despite the number of pubs they have played they still dont know the strats because essentially their is no "strat" in pubs, its just "do as the comm says... please..."
I think perhaps a 6v6 gather, 8v8 gather and maybe even a 10v10 gather could be quite popular (some people just like big games guys, we cant avoid that) and this would give an outlet for the people in the "middle-ground" who dont want to 6v6 gather but dont want disorganised lol####ery that currently is public gaming. :)
But thats just my oppinion.
As to balance, we played Mint vs Duplex otherday and Flayra showed up to watch us (he saw the rounds we got trounced in not the one we actually won :( )...
Sounded like Flayra but I was still astonished it was actually him, I have been told its common for him to come watch Duplex play, so the Devs care...
He even accepted that shift eggs still need work... I personally feel I have not given UWE as much credit as they deserve.
They have made an epic game that I am willing to spend alot of time played to better myself and my team, they are willing to keep altering the game to make it better for myself and myteam... What more can I ask for! :D
I do think a gather system is a great addition to the game. Many players already know about ENSL.org's system -- and have been using it. Over the past week, I've frequently seen 2 gathers going at the same time, specially during NA times. A good in game gather system could reach even more potential players who don't want to (or know how to) use ENSL's third party site. A good idea here might be a way for UWE to team up with ENSL to feed more people to the gather system that is already set up. ENSL does a very good job with the pick up games.
please, for the love of god UWE: learn some subtlety!!! don't you realize that minor things can completely change a game?
i mean seriously, come on now. also, please stop using the justification "it's too hard for new players" to defend things like armory healing armor. you could have taken ns1 mechanics (which are much harder than ns2) and paired them with a ranking/matchmaking system for new players, and all your learning curve problems would be gone.
*Exo's can't use PG?
*Exo's are not beaconed to the bases?
*Beacon doesn't spawn ALL marines including dead to the base?
*Scan is now using TRes, rather than Obs. having energy?
*Mines blow even if you don't touch them (jump over/stay close. There was a mod in ns1 on some pubs with the laser-mines, which was not accepted by competitive scene AT ALL)?
*Mines blow other mines, that are located close by?
*Nanoshields instead of Catalysts?
*Nanoshields can shield structures?
*Parasites don't apply onto the structures?
*What was the purpose of implementing a flame-thrower that is being used only in pubs (rare), whereas everything else is viable in pubs and competitive?
*No grenades?
*Dropped RT is exact same HP as it was build to, not scaling it to fullhp? (so the marine who was building an RT dies, and the RT was build to 33% - it will have 33% hp, in comparison to ns1 100% hp?)
*
I'm looking for proper reasoning on those points to understand why the those decisions were made in oppose to adopting (and slightly changing if required?) something that worked for long years?
*Exo's are not beaconed to the bases?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Exos have huge firepower and a drawback like this creates an interesting dynamic in the game where you need to sacrifice Exo support to save your base, though right now the Exo in general is not properly balanced out yet for competitive play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Beacon doesn't spawn ALL marines including dead to the base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Basically this created problems with spammability and really furthered the spawn system imbalance even more (right now 2 marines can egg-lock the aliens, while marines will at least still spawn even when IPs are camped and can do at least some damage, especially if the comm logs out at the correct time). It is less of a problem now that it costs team resources and could be added back, but I generally think it could turn out to be too powerful to be able to instantly reinforce your team. This may be remedied by making it cost more, but that would make alien base rushes even more crippling than they are already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Scan is now using TRes, rather than Obs. having energy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't see any reason why the one is better than the other. Energy limits use over time (as long as you don't get multiple obs), but TRes use promotes more careful thinking about when to scan. I prefer the latter personally.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Mines blow other mines, that are located close by?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Err. Can you even imagine how bad the mine spam fest would be without this? Mine spam is pretty frustrating already and this is definitely a good thing and also promotes thinking (mine placement is actually skillful to some extent!).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*What was the purpose of implementing a flame-thrower that is being used only in pubs (rare), whereas everything else is viable in pubs and competitive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Really? Not being used is not an intentional purpose of a feature. It is not used because it is not properly balanced yet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Parasites don't apply onto the structures?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This was a result of hivesight being removed/reworked (probably due to screen clutter?). It's not hugely important and doesn't really serve any purpose.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Nanoshields instead of Catalysts?
*Nanoshields can shield structures?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm not sure if Catalysts will be in the game some day but it was definitely planned. Nanoshields are not a "replacement". Why can they shield structures? Why not?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Dropped RT is exact same HP as it was build to, not scaling it to fullhp? (so the marine who was building an RT dies, and the RT was build to 33% - it will have 33% hp, in comparison to ns1 100% hp?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You seem to overthink some things. The building RT health might actually not be an intentional change away from NS1 but rather just how they ended up implementing it. I doubt this was the trademark feature of NS1 making it a good game. I personally feel like this is the correct way of doing it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Mines blow even if you don't touch them (jump over/stay close. There was a mod in ns1 on some pubs with the laser-mines, which was not accepted by competitive scene AT ALL)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It might be a bit too easy to avoid mines without this and also too hard to get rid of them without a lerk. Laser mines which killed you from 20m distance were really silly imo.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*No grenades?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know. That's just how it is right now. NS2 was never intended to be a 1:1 copy of NS1 so some stuff will go missing on the way, sometimes even without any reason.
<!--quoteo(post=2032700:date=Nov 23 2012, 01:20 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Nov 23 2012, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exos have huge firepower and a drawback like this creates an interesting dynamic in the game where you need to sacrifice Exo support to save your base, though right now the Exo in general is not properly balanced out yet for competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos will never be interesting in competition, and are a core part of why NS2 is a competitive stillbirth. Even if you make them viable, if you insist on all these restrictions you're going to make them viable in exactly one way, the way they are now (run the straight-up superlate doomtrain with a hidden Armslab and mow down hives without ever stopping, just redropping enough CCs to not trigger the lose condition).
Worst of all, they go against what it means to be a game, not a fantasy-world-simulator. A game lets players do interesting things, like move, avoid, trick and aim. An Exo or Onos lets neither you nor the opponent do any of those things - for everyone involved it is the most skill-less thing imaginable. Exos vs Onos & Gorge is pretty much what is wrong-est with NS2 in a nutshell.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically this created problems with spammability and really furthered the spawn system imbalance even more (right now 2 marines can egg-lock the aliens, while marines will at least still spawn even when IPs are camped and can do at least some damage, especially if the comm logs out at the correct time). It is less of a problem now that it costs team resources and could be added back, but I generally think it could turn out to be too powerful to be able to instantly reinforce your team. This may be remedied by making it cost more, but that would make alien base rushes even more crippling than they are already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alien spawn system was made into a total joke, therefore beacon was removed along with phasegates being worse. So that we can have all the problems of PG-meatgrinders and spawncamps with none of the fun bits. ###### brilliant, holy ######.
Next you'll tell me they implemented IP knockback on spawn that you can either avoid by being above it or simply use as momentum to walljump and come right back / kill the logging comm.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see any reason why the one is better than the other. Energy limits use over time (as long as you don't get multiple obs), but TRes use promotes more careful thinking about when to scan. I prefer the latter personally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This one is not a terribly big deal, but you're pretty much a bad liar if you think it's anything besides being made vastly more expensive. That said, the proper joke with NS2 scans are the sprites drawn even when the target is in line of sight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Err. Can you even imagine how bad the mine spam fest would be without this? Mine spam is pretty frustrating already and this is definitely a good thing and also promotes thinking (mine placement is actually skillful to some extent!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not, and minespam is a problem a) because tres/pres split is stupid as ###### for both teams b) proximity detonation is a feature invented by an inbred turd that hates aliens. The first part means there are certain things/techs/approaches that you have to use because otherwise PRes is sitting around during key parts of the game or you're bottlenecked at TRes - there really isn't anything on the tech tree besides mines that is as necessary in as many ways and as cheap because of that system. The second bit is just dumb and makes mines effective area denial - mutual detonation along with proximity fuses only makes them better at securing a spot to snipe a hive/rt/upgrade from without much viable recourse at the point where mines first show up. Gorges and a single early-Lerk are infinitely easier to snipe than the mines, and by the P/TRes system also carry a much higher cost than "effectively ###### free".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? Not being used is not an intentional purpose of a feature. It is not used because it is not properly balanced yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Visual clutter for minimal effect is pretty much designed to not be used. Visual clarity is a prime resource in NS unless you are so bad it's a ###### crime. The GL can get away with it because it's not a fraction as obtrusive as a flamethrower and a million times more useful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was a result of hivesight being removed/reworked (probably due to screen clutter?). It's not hugely important and doesn't really serve any purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hivesight: Not hugely important. You heard it here first folks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->grenades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least we won't need those, because hives are so low and the game so damn easy we can just shoot the aliens on top of the hive. Depending on whether crags are currently too strong or too weak, of course.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if Catalysts will be in the game some day but it was definitely planned. Nanoshields are not a "replacement". Why can they shield structures? Why not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you joking? Are you pretending to be obtuse? While one is in and the other is not, nanoshields are effectively a replacement. That's what being a replacement is, being there in place of something else. And nanoshields are yet another bad and unfun idea - providing effective invulnerability on demand for structures removes one of the few key alien comeback mechanisms. Structure biting was already the least skillful, least fun part of NS1 - making it worse, more exposed and counterable by clicking on a thing is pretty much a giant, flying F-you to the player.
Not to mention how much worse it is what it does to marines. Armor itself was already one of the biggest reasons marine power scaled so well - A1 with 1 med is twice the effective HP vs skulks than A0 that took a para/scratch (4 vs 2 bites). A2 is 4 bites without a single med, A3 is again 5 with 1 or 6 with 2. Those are gigantic spans of time it starts taking skulks to kill people and that lower the requirements of playerskill on the marine side and dampen it's effects on the alien side. Now Nanoshield comes along and doubles all of this. Twelve bites for what is effectively just as expensive as straight medspam.
Yeah, let me see if I can kill this slow-biting, magnified-model Skulk that can't bunnyhop before he bites my mate TWELVE TIMES.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might be a bit too easy to avoid mines without this and also too hard to get rid of them without a lerk. Laser mines which killed you from 20m distance were really silly imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mines are always easy to avoid, even with proximity fuses. That's not the point. The point is what they stop you from doing, and the larger the detonation area the more things they stop you from doing. Touch-det mines are fine precisely because good marining doesn't let aliens chose fights - you show up and man up or you lose a key structure.
But again, the more important part is how it plays. Large swaths of "do not step here" does not play well at all. At the heart of the matter lies making a good shooter, and NS2 right now is anything but. The only question that anyone asks before they boot up a game is "do I get to do fun ######" - like directly fighting players and improving on a myriad of minor skills. You cannot compel people to play a game that is inherently lame and uninteresting, no matter how balanced it ends up being.
*Exo's are not beaconed to the bases?
*Beacon doesn't spawn ALL marines including dead to the base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The numerous limitations on exo practicality are basically the only way balance out their insane HP and damage values. You can also add "can't build or weld" to that list.
Heavy armor marine gameplay was one of the weakest parts of NS1 gameplay. Exo gameplay in NS2 is unfortunately even worse, but at least we don't have to suffer it in competitive play since JPs scale infinitely better with skill.
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Scan is now using TRes, rather than Obs. having energy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was a period during the beta when they were experimenting a lot with different resource systems, namely a distinction between tres/pres/energy. The problem then was that they put too many functions on energy, including beacon, severely limiting their use. This led to a lot of complaints on the forums, a significant amount of which from people who had no idea what they're talking about (so forum business as usual) who argued for a complete removal of energy. The devs eventually came around to that idea and completely removed energy from the game, which necessarily meant switching scans over to costing tres.
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Mines blow even if you don't touch them (jump over/stay close. There was a mod in ns1 on some pubs with the laser-mines, which was not accepted by competitive scene AT ALL)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what the justification for the mine detonation range was, but I personally find that it makes mines too powerful. The laser mine mod you talk about were actually a reproduction of the way mines worked during early versions of NS1 (1.0-1.04).
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Mines blow other mines, that are located close by?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mine spam prevention.
<!--quoteo(post=2032694:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 23 2012, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*What was the purpose of implementing a flame-thrower that is being used only in pubs (rare), whereas everything else is viable in pubs and competitive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The flamethrower is actually very useful, but only in certain situations. It absolutely murders cysts (which can be game-deciding in some scenarios) and can be used for all-in hive pushes with jps (flamethrower damage stacks on hives, meaning if you can empty an entire clip into the hive before dying, it will do a ton of damage). Combine that stacking damage with a JP that allows the flamethrower to fly around the hive while almost being unhittable and you have a very powerful hive rush play. Except for double-minigun exos, a JP-flamer rush is the fastest way to kill a hive.
Considering that flamers generally make for frustrating and boring player vs. player combat, I think they're where they should be at the moment.
Considering that flamers generally make for frustrating and boring player vs. player combat, I think they're where they should be at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:D
Tried but failed vs Archaea.
But it does get the Hive down fast!