From what I've seen it really plays into the alien/marine play style. Because marines usually go with having a pgate at every base and play reacting to the aliens until they have defended long enough to get heavy weapons, giving aliens a way to punish lone wolfs who run between the bases isn't a bad thing imo. Since there should be an obs/pgate/armory at every base so that a defense can be mounted anywhere, nothing can sneak too far into the base.
The only question is map control, and how do the marines secure an RT that does no have a pgate/obs next to it. Obviously you can't put a pgate/obs at every RT just to stop invisible skulks from sniping them or poaching a marine that is alone (and deserves to die because of this fact), but you can negate the premise of invisible skulks in the first place by having a good commander that splits his team into attacking and defending forces. Equipping the marines with shot guns and sending off consistent attacks will force the alien players to defend, allowing the marines to secure outlying RTs and make camo and almost wasted investment.
Given that marine to alien RT harass means a little more now that aliens are for some reason still trying to rush kham drop onos eggs and need 3 hives, keeping the fight on alien soil is now even more worthwhile. Doing this will make camo aliens a bit of a moot point, because you know they are going to be there anyways, and 1 scan is going to reveal them all.
It boils down to 3 T.Res for a few seconds of motion tracking and hard-countering the Aliens only upgrade is well worth the expense. Building Obs at all your forward locations to, again, hard counter the Aliens only upgrade, thus delaying your tech, is not a real downside because the Marines will win in the end even with delayed tech tree's versus camo first Aliens. It's a delay tactic, and a poor one against a Marine commander that isn't asleep at the switch.
The Alien commander spends quite literally a crap-ton of nickle-and-dime costs for eggs, enzyme, crag heals, structure shifts, ink, and literally <i>every aspect of their play</i> while still researching fairly expensive ability upgrades. Marines have Medpack/Ammo/Scan that they need to micro, and if they can't afford a simple 3 T.Res scan to turn even crappy Marines into an Ok shot versus aliens with no defensive upgrades it's their own fault.
Camo is <i>the most effective</i> versus bad Marines while being <i>entirely ineffective</i> versus groups of Marines moving to hold a tech point. Since tech points win games now by locking Onos out of the match I think it's well worth delaying the Marine tech tree to deny Aliens their most powerful unit while still being able to field your own end-game unit on just two CC.
Fades, Lerks, and Gorges will either lack Adrenaline and Celerity or Carapace and Regen mid-game due to this strategy, and will have a <i>very</i> hard time clearing out a secured position. Since the Marines can turtle-to-win, Camo means that skulks can only effectively harass in-between Resource nodes while the Mariness tech to Exo for the win. Again, the node's are simply a delay tactic.
If you don't keep the Marines bottled in one location with Camo, you will quite probably lose the match due to early Camo hive. Like I said earlier, it's a risk vs. reward decision that may or may not pay off depending on the skill of the Marine commander. Personally, I don't like strategies that require the other team to screw up to win but Camo is pretty much exactly that.
<!--quoteo(post=2030138:date=Nov 20 2012, 08:50 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 20 2012, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The situation you describe relies heavily on the utter incompetence of marines at covering each other. You cannot rely longterm on a strategy that demands the incompetence of your opponents. Sooner or later you'll meet a real challenge, and get utterly destroyed.
I really don't see why earlygame you need to drop 3-4 Obs, when you can cheerfully scan as required. Perhaps as a decoy to occupy a skulk? Again, competent skulks are probably going to be hitting your res first and Obs second. Versus cloak skulks you only need scan, and then your next priority is A1.
With the latest balance changes you would be very foolish to go Camo first without a very aggressive followup. It can be done, and it can be fun, but all skill being equal I'd suggest picking something else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, most if not all ns2 maps require pushing with at least 2 groups in separate directions to not utterly fail horribly and completely (unless you decide to go all-in phasegate/snipe a hive before 5:00 which more often than not fails miserably). So, two groups is what... 6 res every 15 seconds to rescan. I think ticks are every 5 seconds or something? That's roughly 1/3 of your economy down the drain (scanning). Couple that with the inability to have "lone ninjas" sniping the "double" RTs in the middle of the map or elsewhere, and you have a recipe for failure.
I am contributing the lack of outcry to the pre-229 perception that camo is crap (which it was because it wasn't invisibility, so it made you slow AND visible at short range). I guess when people in pubs actually learn to play competently with this brand new ability, which is nothing like the old ability, we can have a conversation. Maybe 1 or 2 weeks, we'll see how long it takes I guess...
<!--quoteo(post=2030633:date=Nov 20 2012, 05:47 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 20 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, two groups is what... 6 res every 15 seconds to rescan. I think ticks are every 5 seconds or something? That's roughly 1/3 of your economy down the drain (scanning). Couple that with the inability to have "lone ninjas" sniping the "double" RTs in the middle of the map or elsewhere, and you have a recipe for failure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're scanning too much in that scenario, it's a fine line to walk but really you only need to scan when your team is moving into a tech point or near a resource node as long as they stick together. After they secure those things, resource flow increases, scans are easier. Honestly, Marines can get to two tech points before Camo goes up a lot of the time anyway, so for that first skulk wave it's probably moot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am contributing the lack of outcry to the pre-229 perception that camo is crap (which it was because it wasn't invisibility, so it made you slow AND visible at short range). I guess when people in pubs actually learn to play competently with this brand new ability, which is nothing like the old ability, we can have a conversation. Maybe 1 or 2 weeks, we'll see how long it takes I guess...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't take a lot of brain power to realize that if the enemy are invisible you should stick together. However, for some people this is more power than they have. Unless the <i>aliens</i> go all-in on one side, your Marines still stand an even chance at surviving as long as you ping them near a node and when going into a tech point. However, in an all-in scenario you would have probably lost that strike-team either way. If an equal number of equally skilled marines can't take out a group of cloaked skulks somethings wrong with your team or the skulks are simply <i>better</i> at team work.
<!--quoteo(post=2028552:date=Nov 19 2012, 03:22 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 19 2012, 03:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo is OP. Having an alien upgrade which is uncounterable by individual marines is just not good. Maybe if marines could do some kind of pulse scans for free, or maybe if there was some cooldown obs scan to show camo skulks for free with a cooldown, it could work.
As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, except if they go in a group and the com keeps scanning. That is a death sentence for the team, more often than not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have to use teamwork? OMG nerf aliens and give us free scan!!!
I think I can count on one hand the number of Shade-first games I've seen since 229. If Camo is so OP it sure is taking people a while to figure it out.
<!--quoteo(post=2030279:date=Nov 20 2012, 11:41 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 20 2012, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->again, i doubt youll understand, and even see this as nothing but a "flame" . but your own words point out how incorrect you are in every way possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I mean is that once aliens get camo, you HAVE to be in a group. You can't go alone and hope to survive, anywhere. Even going with another person is risky, because you have to watch each other perfectly at all times and react well under .5 seconds when aliens start biting (something which is impossible/improbable when someone is axing and the other gets attacked).
<!--quoteo(post=2030914:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:46 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 20 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I can count on one hand the number of Shade-first games I've seen since 229. If Camo is so OP it sure is taking people a while to figure it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Played 4 rounds tonight, 3 rounds camo first, 3 rounds lost (2 commander wouldn't scan and people wouldn't stick together, 1 economic loss). Will play some more in a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=2030902:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:39 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 20 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have to use teamwork? OMG nerf aliens and give us free scan!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not entirely the problem. The problem is that suddenly one upgrade changes the core gameplay of the entire game. I'd compare the severity of the change to removing the ability of skulks to walk on walls and ceilings, having to buy ARs for 5 res a piece, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2030919:date=Nov 20 2012, 10:52 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 20 2012, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not entirely the problem. The problem is that suddenly one upgrade changes the core gameplay of the entire game. I'd compare the severity of the change to removing the ability of skulks to walk on walls and ceilings, having to buy ARs for 5 res a piece, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hate to break it to you bud, but there were a lot of changes that are leading people into the early Camo route. Shift nerfs, Onos nerfs, crag nerfs; it's going to take the Aliens some time to reassess the lay of the land strategy wise. Camo is a safer pub game bet since newer Marine commanders are probably not going to know how to counter you easily and even new skulk players can figure out how to use invisibility as a killing mechanic. Despite that, it's still easily countered. If you want to look at the source of the problem, look no further than your command chair.
I blame the fact that there are a ton of people who quite literally cannot hit the broad side of a barn in NS2. I'm one of them with an LMG. If you have a few people like this on your team, there really isn't going to be much you can do about it even as the best commander. Maybe if Scan gave every marine an Aim-Bot for five seconds, but I don't think anyone would think that's balanced. ^_^
I'm most at home on Marines with a jetpack and flamethrower with a welder. Requires zero aim, but awesome at Exo support/anti-structure detail.
I joined 12 and 16 newbie servers for most of last night to see how things were panning out in the wild. Shade first for nearly every match.
When aliens were aggressive, locking out marines, most lifeforms were skipped until people had pres for Onos... and then marine spawn got destroyed.
When aliens were NOT aggressive, the marines would cap nodes and then turtle and tech before multiple Exos rolled in. Shotguns everywhere in the earlygame.
When Comm was actively pinging there was less aggression than usual on the alien side.
When Khamm wasn't actively calling out nodes the aggression was random.
What this told me is that Camo works best when paired with focused aggression and poor Comming. Random attacking against a ping Commander was a futile effort. There's a large middle ground there, but on average shotgun or pinged marines trumped anything Camo skulks could throw at them. This threw Kharaa on the defensive, and you can't Camo defensively.
<!--quoteo(post=2030919:date=Nov 21 2012, 05:52 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 21 2012, 05:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I mean is that once aliens get camo, you HAVE to be in a group. You can't go alone and hope to survive, anywhere. Even going with another person is risky, because you have to watch each other perfectly at all times and react well under .5 seconds when aliens start biting (something which is impossible/improbable when someone is axing and the other gets attacked).
Played 4 rounds tonight, 3 rounds camo first, 3 rounds lost (2 commander wouldn't scan and people wouldn't stick together, 1 economic loss). Will play some more in a bit.
That's not entirely the problem. The problem is that suddenly one upgrade changes the core gameplay of the entire game. I'd compare the severity of the change to removing the ability of skulks to walk on walls and ceilings, having to buy ARs for 5 res a piece, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how you keep on complaining about "Marines having to move as a group", tell you what: They are always supposed to move as a group. Let's also not forget that a good Marine going solo easily outruns any Cloaked Skulk. A camo'ed crawling Skulk can't keep up with a sprinting Marine, so the Skulk is either forced to place himself right in the way of the Marine or break Camo to run after said Marine.
The other problem i clearly see is an "L2P" issue with your Marine gameplay. Most seasoned NS players are pretty used to getting bit from behind and doing 180° straight on the Skulk behind them (all that in the timespan of a blink). Just because you are not able to do that, does not mean it's impossible to do, imho glancing bites makes this even way easier compared to regular ass NS1 skulks with focus (With those you had been dead at first hit or second most).
Shade first is just as easy to counter as SC first had been in NS1. As a Comm i always love playing against Shade/SC first, because it gives me a valid reason to turtle the ###### up and drag the game on for a while. It's about the only chamber choice where a 2 Hive lockdown is actually a viable strategy.
Camo is overall the least versatile upgrade of them all, it does not help your Skulks that much to react to early pressure like Cele does, it does not give you the option to go higher lifeforms on 1 Hive like Cara/Regen gives. Even with 100% invisibility while crawling i would still consider it the worst upgrade of them all (Current version of Adren is pretty bad too tho). I would love if they would just move Silence back to the Shift while adding Focus and Sense of Fear for the Shade as upgrades. That way Shade would be more versatile overall again..
Marines have enough trouble already without camo keeping up with alien expansion speed in the early game. They have to split up their forces and must dedicate manpower to building and protecting builders while aliens are free to roam the map in packs from the very beginning. Without phase gates you can't reasonably expand and reinforce quickly enough beyond the first nodes in either direction from your main. The alien mobility advantage is huge before that and adding an observatory for each gate leaves little to no room for timely upgrades or scans for aggression. I have a habit of checking the scoreboard whenever the first fade and onos appears on map and I VERY rarely see any marine at 50 / 75 res respectively. Needless to say this just snowballs the advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2030664:date=Nov 20 2012, 05:15 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 20 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't take a lot of brain power to realize that if the enemy are invisible you should stick together. However, for some people this is more power than they have. Unless the <i>aliens</i> go all-in on one side, your Marines still stand an even chance at surviving as long as you ping them near a node and when going into a tech point. However, in an all-in scenario you would have probably lost that strike-team either way. If an equal number of equally skilled marines can't take out a group of cloaked skulks somethings wrong with your team or the skulks are simply <i>better</i> at team work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is horse###### right there. Aliens should have the advantage of speed and marines the advantage of range. Camo breaks that. I am a subpar skulk and never have difficulty taking out at least one marine whenever I get the first bite in with camo. It only gets worse as the numbers increase because friendly targets block bullets. If you ever tried taking out a skulk at the feet of a group of exos being repaired by a bunch of marines and macs you know what I'm talking about.
How about adding some <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d1yDCWicf0" target="_blank">horror-like sound-effects</a> when you are near camoed aliens/things?
Not coming directly from the alien, but a sound that clearly tells you that you are not alone...
<!--quoteo(post=2031276:date=Nov 21 2012, 04:42 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Nov 21 2012, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you ever tried taking out a skulk at the feet of a group of exos being repaired by a bunch of marines and macs you know what I'm talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe you're drifting outside the scope of the discussion. If you have all that against one Camo hive then you're in Marine endgame, and it doesn't matter what the skulk does at that point.
Friendly targets only block bullets until they die. Your skulk is then hosed by the friendlies aiming in the direction of the dead marine. Assuming equal skill levels, of course.
What you're also missing about Camo is that an Obs and Scan completely nullify all advantages. Let me emphasise that: Completely. Marines are free to keep teching up, but the Kharaaa get nothing until they can get another hive. That's a lot of time, in game terms, and once you've got shotties you can roll with impunity through the alien lines. Higher lifeforms won't last long, and gorges can't heal an entire team on that hive.
Best case scenario your main hive goes down and you get the second up in time. You're still on one hive but now against a team of marines with stage 1 upgrades, and you've just given them a great spot to place their second CC. Marines also have a res advantage since aliens have spent the past minute defending their hive rather than taking out RTs. Aliens would struggle to come back.
<!--quoteo(post=2032108:date=Nov 22 2012, 03:46 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 22 2012, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe you're drifting outside the scope of the discussion. If you have all that against one Camo hive then you're in Marine endgame, and it doesn't matter what the skulk does at that point.
...
What you're also missing about Camo is that an Obs and Scan completely nullify all advantages. Let me emphasise that: Completely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you genuinely missed the context there or just playing. It was an extreme example of how bad bullet blocking can be. No actual exos in the early game. Concerning obs and scan, I read the tooltips too. Incidentally I also made a post right above yours that says scanning and an observatory for each phase gate eats into you resources early on so badly that it's only marginally better than the damage it is meant to prevent.
<!--quoteo(post=2030143:date=Nov 20 2012, 11:02 AM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 20 2012, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->assuming that your team mate can hear the biting sound, spin 180 degrees and instantly kill a skulk is just false.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait. What...really?
I do EXACTLY this all the time in Team Fortress 2 when playing as Heavy. I'm moving forward unopposed with my medic. I hear the sound of ice freezing, I do a 180 and instant-kill the Spy who just stabbed my medic. That's just ONE attack, and Skulks will take at LEAST two, AND they're louder.
And yeah, I don't understand the complaints about marines moving as a group. Marines tend to reach "critical, unstoppable mass" much more easily in groups than aliens do.
K I started it so i'll finish it lol 100% camo while moving is OP ,, 100% camo while standing still isn't
Problem is, and I am quoting a freind :P their is no allowance for marine skill which I feel should play a part if they alien in question is moving (hence not at 100%) however I feel even the 228 camo is to much as stevie wonder could see that coming, needs to be hard as hell to see just enough that maybe the 2nd time the marine comes and hes aware your in the area could have a chance at seeing you (but again not if your standing still, thats what scans are for :P ) This way it would be more of a get into place and attack rather than camo around the corner then walk in :P
Also please note that my change towards this is nothing to do with getting bitten by camo skulks in fact quite the reverse I am getting bored with it was gd for a troll but thats what it is just now a troll (still doesn't = win like some on here would like you to believe :P )
<!--quoteo(post=2032145:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:04 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Nov 22 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if you genuinely missed the context there or just playing. It was an extreme example of how bad bullet blocking can be. No actual exos in the early game. Concerning obs and scan, I read the tooltips too. Incidentally I also made a post right above yours that says scanning and an observatory for each phase gate eats into you resources early on so badly that it's only marginally better than the damage it is meant to prevent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Extreme examples are exceptions, not rules. You can't balance a game on extremes, so it's best to avoid using them as examples when discussing game balance.
The tooltips are no substitute for experience. How many phase gates are you trying to run early game? If aliens have went Camo first, you should be giving serious consideration to rushing their hive, and that really only "requires" one forward base. The best the aliens can do is either forfeit higher lifeforms by building a gorge wall, or hope that a world class fade can hit'n'run your entire squad fast enough to allow the team to take out your forward base. Camo skulk vs shotty marine is a losing proposition for the skulks, and hives don't last long against that sort of aggression either.
If you're using two or more PGs that early into the game then you're really running a turtling strategy, and a turtle strategy is an ineffective counter to Camo. It can work, sure, but it's more effective to rushdown the hive and put the aliens on defense. They'll blow stacks of res trying to keep you out, or to relocate, whereas every point you spend is an investment in tech that'll last til endgame.
It's not just how much you're spending, it's how much they're spending too. Think about value over cost.
one issue with Camo is now skulks can get a initial free 75 point bite. Before the marine has time to react can kill off one marine. So on a 6 on 6 rumble the skulks can almost always win, before commander has time to ping. The Marines would already be down.
---
Probably one effective way to balance it is to reduce initial damage of first bite of Camo to something like 30. Then every bite after that 75 as long as not in camo.
It ruins pub games.It takes away a natural ability of the marine to defend himself by using spacing between him and alien,and thats not accounting that the alien gets his first bite for free.When used correctly it completely nullifies silence.Your marines are forced to go in pairs even for the safiest job like placing a natural extractor.Its really easy to use.Camo should be usable only by stationary aliens to hide/ambush,but not work when aliens are moving.Camo and silence should give some bonuses to agility to make starting Shade hive viable.Also sneaky onoses?Give me a break.
This video pretty much sums up exactly what is wrong with the camo ability at the moment if you ask me: <a href="http://extra-credits.net/episodes/counter-play/" target="_blank">http://extra-credits.net/episodes/counter-play/</a>
The Counter-Play episode is a good one to watch. What might combine into this scenario, I think, is if Camoflauge had some key disadvantage that the marines could exploit once they know aliens are using it.
I don't know exactly what would fit most, but an example in TF2 is the Spy's decloak time. While cloaked or uncloaking, he can't attack, and if he gets attacked while cloaked, everyone can see him for a moment. What's more, the Pyro can make him completely visible while he's cloaked, forcing him to uncloak to defend himself.
It might be interesting for Skulks to have some critical disadvantage to cloaking; or it might be already there, and just not exploited enough by marines. An example: While a skulk is camoflauged, or for 5 seconds after camoflauging, Skulks are nearly <b>blinded</b> by a Marine's flashlight. Hey, it's kinda random, and that will not likely be it, but it's a thought.
Something about being able to just plainly walk right up to a marine and chomp him in the balls seems kind of cheap to me. It's basically an easy mode for newbies. And it's terribly frustrating for a marine to die like that, not because you've been careless or outskilled by another player, but because of an upgrade that lets aliens get a free whack at you.
I'd be okay with 100% invisible when still, and slightly visible when moving. It would still be a useful tool.
<!--quoteo(post=2031301:date=Nov 21 2012, 08:18 PM:name=duke_Qa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (duke_Qa @ Nov 21 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about adding some <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d1yDCWicf0" target="_blank">horror-like sound-effects</a> when you are near camoed aliens/things?
Not coming directly from the alien, but a sound that clearly tells you that you are not alone...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be a good solution.
I played numerous times as a camo skulk today, and I gotta admit, it's pretty goddamn faceroll. :D Most marines drop dead before getting 10 hp off of you, some marines doing a constant zig-zag jump dance are harder, but everyone stops eventually, and then you get the kill.
I think the only thing stopping this being 100% starting strat for aliens right now is just the amount of new players who don't know about it or how to use it.
EDIT: I think how you should make camo work, is 100% invisible while still, and while moving you would not be able to see PARTS OF THE SKULK but distortions NEARBY the skulk. If you make any part of the skulk visible, it's going to get shot at, rendering camo useless. But if you give the marine the general direction where the alien is, it turns alot more exciting.
EDIT: OH, OH, I got an idea! How about, marines can see moving, stealthed skulks VAGUELY if, and ONLY if MARINES STAND STILL? That would make a fun game of who-stops-before-the-other between the alien and marine :P
<!--quoteo(post=2031247:date=Nov 21 2012, 09:22 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 21 2012, 09:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny how you keep on complaining about "Marines having to move as a group", tell you what: They are always supposed to move as a group. Let's also not forget that a good Marine going solo easily outruns any Cloaked Skulk. A camo'ed crawling Skulk can't keep up with a sprinting Marine, so the Skulk is either forced to place himself right in the way of the Marine or break Camo to run after said Marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except they aren't. Even in comp games usually there's only one person making RTs while the other 4 attack. In pub games, it's even more important to have presence everywhere or at least most places, especially with marines' reduced mobility.
Sure, a camo skulk is slow. But who cares? He can just jump behind the sprinting marine, camo behind a corner and kill him. The marine HAS to stop somewhere. The entire objective of the game is to kill structures or construct them. Good luck killing structures while running or sprinting away from camo skulks xD .
As far as "l2p" goes, just no. I know how to play, and I reaffirm that camo is stupidly OP with the way it functions right now, and the limited and costly (economically and tactically) abilities to counter it.
I'd love to see a tournament with these last couple of patches tbh. It might be interesting to see how comp. teams would play without onos drop and with OP camo and much more powerful passive regen.
Comments
The only question is map control, and how do the marines secure an RT that does no have a pgate/obs next to it. Obviously you can't put a pgate/obs at every RT just to stop invisible skulks from sniping them or poaching a marine that is alone (and deserves to die because of this fact), but you can negate the premise of invisible skulks in the first place by having a good commander that splits his team into attacking and defending forces. Equipping the marines with shot guns and sending off consistent attacks will force the alien players to defend, allowing the marines to secure outlying RTs and make camo and almost wasted investment.
Given that marine to alien RT harass means a little more now that aliens are for some reason still trying to rush kham drop onos eggs and need 3 hives, keeping the fight on alien soil is now even more worthwhile. Doing this will make camo aliens a bit of a moot point, because you know they are going to be there anyways, and 1 scan is going to reveal them all.
The Alien commander spends quite literally a crap-ton of nickle-and-dime costs for eggs, enzyme, crag heals, structure shifts, ink, and literally <i>every aspect of their play</i> while still researching fairly expensive ability upgrades. Marines have Medpack/Ammo/Scan that they need to micro, and if they can't afford a simple 3 T.Res scan to turn even crappy Marines into an Ok shot versus aliens with no defensive upgrades it's their own fault.
Camo is <i>the most effective</i> versus bad Marines while being <i>entirely ineffective</i> versus groups of Marines moving to hold a tech point. Since tech points win games now by locking Onos out of the match I think it's well worth delaying the Marine tech tree to deny Aliens their most powerful unit while still being able to field your own end-game unit on just two CC.
Fades, Lerks, and Gorges will either lack Adrenaline and Celerity or Carapace and Regen mid-game due to this strategy, and will have a <i>very</i> hard time clearing out a secured position. Since the Marines can turtle-to-win, Camo means that skulks can only effectively harass in-between Resource nodes while the Mariness tech to Exo for the win. Again, the node's are simply a delay tactic.
If you don't keep the Marines bottled in one location with Camo, you will quite probably lose the match due to early Camo hive. Like I said earlier, it's a risk vs. reward decision that may or may not pay off depending on the skill of the Marine commander. Personally, I don't like strategies that require the other team to screw up to win but Camo is pretty much exactly that.
I really don't see why earlygame you need to drop 3-4 Obs, when you can cheerfully scan as required. Perhaps as a decoy to occupy a skulk? Again, competent skulks are probably going to be hitting your res first and Obs second. Versus cloak skulks you only need scan, and then your next priority is A1.
With the latest balance changes you would be very foolish to go Camo first without a very aggressive followup. It can be done, and it can be fun, but all skill being equal I'd suggest picking something else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, most if not all ns2 maps require pushing with at least 2 groups in separate directions to not utterly fail horribly and completely (unless you decide to go all-in phasegate/snipe a hive before 5:00 which more often than not fails miserably). So, two groups is what... 6 res every 15 seconds to rescan. I think ticks are every 5 seconds or something? That's roughly 1/3 of your economy down the drain (scanning). Couple that with the inability to have "lone ninjas" sniping the "double" RTs in the middle of the map or elsewhere, and you have a recipe for failure.
I am contributing the lack of outcry to the pre-229 perception that camo is crap (which it was because it wasn't invisibility, so it made you slow AND visible at short range). I guess when people in pubs actually learn to play competently with this brand new ability, which is nothing like the old ability, we can have a conversation. Maybe 1 or 2 weeks, we'll see how long it takes I guess...
You're scanning too much in that scenario, it's a fine line to walk but really you only need to scan when your team is moving into a tech point or near a resource node as long as they stick together. After they secure those things, resource flow increases, scans are easier. Honestly, Marines can get to two tech points before Camo goes up a lot of the time anyway, so for that first skulk wave it's probably moot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am contributing the lack of outcry to the pre-229 perception that camo is crap (which it was because it wasn't invisibility, so it made you slow AND visible at short range). I guess when people in pubs actually learn to play competently with this brand new ability, which is nothing like the old ability, we can have a conversation. Maybe 1 or 2 weeks, we'll see how long it takes I guess...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't take a lot of brain power to realize that if the enemy are invisible you should stick together. However, for some people this is more power than they have. Unless the <i>aliens</i> go all-in on one side, your Marines still stand an even chance at surviving as long as you ping them near a node and when going into a tech point. However, in an all-in scenario you would have probably lost that strike-team either way. If an equal number of equally skilled marines can't take out a group of cloaked skulks somethings wrong with your team or the skulks are simply <i>better</i> at team work.
As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, except if they go in a group and the com keeps scanning. That is a death sentence for the team, more often than not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have to use teamwork? OMG nerf aliens and give us free scan!!!
What I mean is that once aliens get camo, you HAVE to be in a group. You can't go alone and hope to survive, anywhere. Even going with another person is risky, because you have to watch each other perfectly at all times and react well under .5 seconds when aliens start biting (something which is impossible/improbable when someone is axing and the other gets attacked).
<!--quoteo(post=2030914:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:46 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 20 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I can count on one hand the number of Shade-first games I've seen since 229. If Camo is so OP it sure is taking people a while to figure it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Played 4 rounds tonight, 3 rounds camo first, 3 rounds lost (2 commander wouldn't scan and people wouldn't stick together, 1 economic loss). Will play some more in a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=2030902:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:39 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 20 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have to use teamwork? OMG nerf aliens and give us free scan!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not entirely the problem. The problem is that suddenly one upgrade changes the core gameplay of the entire game. I'd compare the severity of the change to removing the ability of skulks to walk on walls and ceilings, having to buy ARs for 5 res a piece, etc.
Hate to break it to you bud, but there were a lot of changes that are leading people into the early Camo route. Shift nerfs, Onos nerfs, crag nerfs; it's going to take the Aliens some time to reassess the lay of the land strategy wise. Camo is a safer pub game bet since newer Marine commanders are probably not going to know how to counter you easily and even new skulk players can figure out how to use invisibility as a killing mechanic. Despite that, it's still easily countered. If you want to look at the source of the problem, look no further than your command chair.
I blame the fact that there are a ton of people who quite literally cannot hit the broad side of a barn in NS2. I'm one of them with an LMG. If you have a few people like this on your team, there really isn't going to be much you can do about it even as the best commander. Maybe if Scan gave every marine an Aim-Bot for five seconds, but I don't think anyone would think that's balanced. ^_^
I'm most at home on Marines with a jetpack and flamethrower with a welder. Requires zero aim, but awesome at Exo support/anti-structure detail.
When aliens were aggressive, locking out marines, most lifeforms were skipped until people had pres for Onos... and then marine spawn got destroyed.
When aliens were NOT aggressive, the marines would cap nodes and then turtle and tech before multiple Exos rolled in. Shotguns everywhere in the earlygame.
When Comm was actively pinging there was less aggression than usual on the alien side.
When Khamm wasn't actively calling out nodes the aggression was random.
What this told me is that Camo works best when paired with focused aggression and poor Comming. Random attacking against a ping Commander was a futile effort. There's a large middle ground there, but on average shotgun or pinged marines trumped anything Camo skulks could throw at them. This threw Kharaa on the defensive, and you can't Camo defensively.
Played 4 rounds tonight, 3 rounds camo first, 3 rounds lost (2 commander wouldn't scan and people wouldn't stick together, 1 economic loss). Will play some more in a bit.
That's not entirely the problem. The problem is that suddenly one upgrade changes the core gameplay of the entire game. I'd compare the severity of the change to removing the ability of skulks to walk on walls and ceilings, having to buy ARs for 5 res a piece, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how you keep on complaining about "Marines having to move as a group", tell you what: They are always supposed to move as a group.
Let's also not forget that a good Marine going solo easily outruns any Cloaked Skulk. A camo'ed crawling Skulk can't keep up with a sprinting Marine, so the Skulk is either forced to place himself right in the way of the Marine or break Camo to run after said Marine.
The other problem i clearly see is an "L2P" issue with your Marine gameplay. Most seasoned NS players are pretty used to getting bit from behind and doing 180° straight on the Skulk behind them (all that in the timespan of a blink). Just because you are not able to do that, does not mean it's impossible to do, imho glancing bites makes this even way easier compared to regular ass NS1 skulks with focus (With those you had been dead at first hit or second most).
Shade first is just as easy to counter as SC first had been in NS1. As a Comm i always love playing against Shade/SC first, because it gives me a valid reason to turtle the ###### up and drag the game on for a while. It's about the only chamber choice where a 2 Hive lockdown is actually a viable strategy.
Camo is overall the least versatile upgrade of them all, it does not help your Skulks that much to react to early pressure like Cele does, it does not give you the option to go higher lifeforms on 1 Hive like Cara/Regen gives. Even with 100% invisibility while crawling i would still consider it the worst upgrade of them all (Current version of Adren is pretty bad too tho). I would love if they would just move Silence back to the Shift while adding Focus and Sense of Fear for the Shade as upgrades. That way Shade would be more versatile overall again..
<!--quoteo(post=2030664:date=Nov 20 2012, 05:15 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 20 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't take a lot of brain power to realize that if the enemy are invisible you should stick together. However, for some people this is more power than they have. Unless the <i>aliens</i> go all-in on one side, your Marines still stand an even chance at surviving as long as you ping them near a node and when going into a tech point. However, in an all-in scenario you would have probably lost that strike-team either way. If an equal number of equally skilled marines can't take out a group of cloaked skulks somethings wrong with your team or the skulks are simply <i>better</i> at team work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is horse###### right there. Aliens should have the advantage of speed and marines the advantage of range. Camo breaks that. I am a subpar skulk and never have difficulty taking out at least one marine whenever I get the first bite in with camo. It only gets worse as the numbers increase because friendly targets block bullets. If you ever tried taking out a skulk at the feet of a group of exos being repaired by a bunch of marines and macs you know what I'm talking about.
Not coming directly from the alien, but a sound that clearly tells you that you are not alone...
I believe you're drifting outside the scope of the discussion. If you have all that against one Camo hive then you're in Marine endgame, and it doesn't matter what the skulk does at that point.
Friendly targets only block bullets until they die. Your skulk is then hosed by the friendlies aiming in the direction of the dead marine. Assuming equal skill levels, of course.
What you're also missing about Camo is that an Obs and Scan completely nullify all advantages. Let me emphasise that: Completely. Marines are free to keep teching up, but the Kharaaa get nothing until they can get another hive. That's a lot of time, in game terms, and once you've got shotties you can roll with impunity through the alien lines. Higher lifeforms won't last long, and gorges can't heal an entire team on that hive.
Best case scenario your main hive goes down and you get the second up in time. You're still on one hive but now against a team of marines with stage 1 upgrades, and you've just given them a great spot to place their second CC. Marines also have a res advantage since aliens have spent the past minute defending their hive rather than taking out RTs. Aliens would struggle to come back.
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What you're also missing about Camo is that an Obs and Scan completely nullify all advantages. Let me emphasise that: Completely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you genuinely missed the context there or just playing. It was an extreme example of how bad bullet blocking can be. No actual exos in the early game. Concerning obs and scan, I read the tooltips too. Incidentally I also made a post right above yours that says scanning and an observatory for each phase gate eats into you resources early on so badly that it's only marginally better than the damage it is meant to prevent.
Wait. What...really?
I do EXACTLY this all the time in Team Fortress 2 when playing as Heavy. I'm moving forward unopposed with my medic. I hear the sound of ice freezing, I do a 180 and instant-kill the Spy who just stabbed my medic. That's just ONE attack, and Skulks will take at LEAST two, AND they're louder.
And yeah, I don't understand the complaints about marines moving as a group. Marines tend to reach "critical, unstoppable mass" much more easily in groups than aliens do.
Problem is, and I am quoting a freind :P their is no allowance for marine skill which I feel should play a part if they alien in question is moving (hence not at 100%) however I feel even the 228 camo is to much as stevie wonder could see that coming, needs to be hard as hell to see just enough that maybe the 2nd time the marine comes and hes aware your in the area could have a chance at seeing you (but again not if your standing still, thats what scans are for :P ) This way it would be more of a get into place and attack rather than camo around the corner then walk in :P
Also please note that my change towards this is nothing to do with getting bitten by camo skulks in fact quite the reverse I am getting bored with it was gd for a troll but thats what it is just now a troll (still doesn't = win like some on here would like you to believe :P )
Extreme examples are exceptions, not rules. You can't balance a game on extremes, so it's best to avoid using them as examples when discussing game balance.
The tooltips are no substitute for experience. How many phase gates are you trying to run early game? If aliens have went Camo first, you should be giving serious consideration to rushing their hive, and that really only "requires" one forward base. The best the aliens can do is either forfeit higher lifeforms by building a gorge wall, or hope that a world class fade can hit'n'run your entire squad fast enough to allow the team to take out your forward base. Camo skulk vs shotty marine is a losing proposition for the skulks, and hives don't last long against that sort of aggression either.
If you're using two or more PGs that early into the game then you're really running a turtling strategy, and a turtle strategy is an ineffective counter to Camo. It can work, sure, but it's more effective to rushdown the hive and put the aliens on defense. They'll blow stacks of res trying to keep you out, or to relocate, whereas every point you spend is an investment in tech that'll last til endgame.
It's not just how much you're spending, it's how much they're spending too. Think about value over cost.
So on a 6 on 6 rumble the skulks can almost always win, before commander has time to ping. The Marines would already be down.
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Probably one effective way to balance it is to reduce initial damage of first bite of Camo to something like 30. Then every bite after that 75 as long as not in camo.
It ruins pub games.It takes away a natural ability of the marine to defend himself by using spacing between him and alien,and thats not accounting that the alien gets his first bite for free.When used correctly it completely nullifies silence.Your marines are forced to go in pairs even for the safiest job like placing a natural extractor.Its really easy to use.Camo should be usable only by stationary aliens to hide/ambush,but not work when aliens are moving.Camo and silence should give some bonuses to agility to make starting Shade hive viable.Also sneaky onoses?Give me a break.
<a href="http://extra-credits.net/episodes/counter-play/" target="_blank">http://extra-credits.net/episodes/counter-play/</a>
Mad?
I don't know exactly what would fit most, but an example in TF2 is the Spy's decloak time. While cloaked or uncloaking, he can't attack, and if he gets attacked while cloaked, everyone can see him for a moment. What's more, the Pyro can make him completely visible while he's cloaked, forcing him to uncloak to defend himself.
It might be interesting for Skulks to have some critical disadvantage to cloaking; or it might be already there, and just not exploited enough by marines. An example: While a skulk is camoflauged, or for 5 seconds after camoflauging, Skulks are nearly <b>blinded</b> by a Marine's flashlight.
Hey, it's kinda random, and that will not likely be it, but it's a thought.
I'd be okay with 100% invisible when still, and slightly visible when moving. It would still be a useful tool.
Not coming directly from the alien, but a sound that clearly tells you that you are not alone...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be a good solution.
I played numerous times as a camo skulk today, and I gotta admit, it's pretty goddamn faceroll. :D Most marines drop dead before getting 10 hp off of you, some marines doing a constant zig-zag jump dance are harder, but everyone stops eventually, and then you get the kill.
I think the only thing stopping this being 100% starting strat for aliens right now is just the amount of new players who don't know about it or how to use it.
EDIT: I think how you should make camo work, is 100% invisible while still, and while moving you would not be able to see PARTS OF THE SKULK but distortions NEARBY the skulk. If you make any part of the skulk visible, it's going to get shot at, rendering camo useless. But if you give the marine the general direction where the alien is, it turns alot more exciting.
EDIT: OH, OH, I got an idea! How about, marines can see moving, stealthed skulks VAGUELY if, and ONLY if MARINES STAND STILL? That would make a fun game of who-stops-before-the-other between the alien and marine :P
Let's also not forget that a good Marine going solo easily outruns any Cloaked Skulk. A camo'ed crawling Skulk can't keep up with a sprinting Marine, so the Skulk is either forced to place himself right in the way of the Marine or break Camo to run after said Marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except they aren't. Even in comp games usually there's only one person making RTs while the other 4 attack. In pub games, it's even more important to have presence everywhere or at least most places, especially with marines' reduced mobility.
Sure, a camo skulk is slow. But who cares? He can just jump behind the sprinting marine, camo behind a corner and kill him. The marine HAS to stop somewhere. The entire objective of the game is to kill structures or construct them. Good luck killing structures while running or sprinting away from camo skulks xD .
As far as "l2p" goes, just no. I know how to play, and I reaffirm that camo is stupidly OP with the way it functions right now, and the limited and costly (economically and tactically) abilities to counter it.
I'd love to see a tournament with these last couple of patches tbh. It might be interesting to see how comp. teams would play without onos drop and with OP camo and much more powerful passive regen.