<!--quoteo(post=2031725:date=Nov 22 2012, 12:32 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 22 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The complaint is more, fades ARE getting soloed by shotty marines, and not exceptionally rarely, because they take longer to kill an armor 1 marine (for example) than an armor 1 marine takes to unload more than enough of a shotgun clip, and that it's very easy to instantly die as soon as you show your face if marines are a bit lucky.
Fades having a big hitbox that is mostly face high makes them easier to hit than skulks in a chaos situation.
For the record, at weapons 2 (which is a good midgame upgrade stat) against a carapasc fade, 26 shotgun pellets need to hit. One clip of the shotgun fires 80. You need less than a third of your pellets to hit from a single shotgun clip to kill a fade.
A marine fighting a fade with a shotgun is really not on a tight budget. The fade needs to sink the same number of swipes to kill the marine as the marine needs to sink to kill the fade generally speaking, both are using close range weapons, and the marine can whittle off health with near misses in the mean time. Fade has almost every disadvantage, and that's why they just don't feel that scary when you've got a shot gun.
Right now, to me, the smaller your hitbox is the better you're doing against shotguns until the onos comes out. Gorges and fades HATE shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if anything, your observations should be leading you towards the opinion that shotgun is overpowered... not the fade being underpowered.
i will admit that anything less than a highly skilled fade is guaranteed to take a buckshot in the eye against a highly skilled shotgunner. even the highly skilled fade is at risk against a highly skilled shotgunner, therefore it's preferable to not engage shotgunners at all... which does seem like a problem.
i honestly feel a bit overpowered when i have a shotgun <a href="http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/939261051703831317/D0FF069FD5E7BC21912D37436D53EC32476C8B3A/" target="_blank">http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/93926105...53EC32476C8B3A/</a>, i catch lerks and fades totally by surprise... but because i only play pubs against mostly lesser skilled players; i can't say if it's actually OP or not... (i can get similar KDR when playing as fade too)
I just absolutely shake my head at people who think t-res onos are the only things that can win a game. When I alien com I *never* drop an onos egg unless either a) it's desperately needed to break a siege or siege an extremely important location or b) I have all other areas cragged/shifted/whipped up to help aliens hold them and all upgrades/abilities are researched. Players have personal res for a reason. Learn to use it effectively and wisely and stop assuming alien comms want to just sit around and drop res nodes and save for onos eggs.
<!--quoteo(post=2031678:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:48 AM:name=Syriquez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syriquez @ Nov 22 2012, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for Fade being useless... It's not completely worthless. It's just worthless unless you happen to, say, be me and really, <i>really</i> know how to maximize it. Basically means that you need to evaluate every single encounter on whether or not you can get away with attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This made me giggle. Either way, lets say you are a god like evaluator of situations. Here's a situation where you probably shouldn't go in: marine has a shotgun. Therefore, since a 50 res lifeform is rendered ineffective by the presence of a single weapon, the fade is indeed useless.
<!--quoteo(post=2031893:date=Nov 21 2012, 09:21 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 21 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then how does the price of gorge/lerk/fade egg differ? If they don't, then that is inconsistent design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can apply something similar to other lifeforms. Gorge and Lerk could cost regular tRes on second hive. Fade and Onos could cost regular tRes on third hive.
Example: lifeform: hive 1 - hive 2 - hive 3 -------------------------------------------- Gorge: 15 tRes - 10 tRes - 10 tRes Lerk: 45 tRes - 30 tRes - 30 tRes Fade: 100 tRes - 65 tRes - 50 tRes Onos: 150 tRes - 100 tRes - 75 tRes
Something like that. This is just a proof of concept and could use further tweaking of the numbers.
<!--quoteo(post=2031912:date=Nov 22 2012, 04:30 PM:name=ktr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktr @ Nov 22 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can apply something similar to other lifeforms. Gorge and Lerk could cost regular tRes on second hive. Fade and Onos could cost regular tRes on third hive.
Example: lifeform: hive 1 - hive 2 - hive 3 -------------------------------------------- Gorge: 15 tRes - 10 tRes - 10 tRes Lerk: 45 tRes - 30 tRes - 30 tRes Fade: 100 tRes - 65 tRes - 50 tRes Onos: 150 tRes - 100 tRes - 75 tRes
Something like that. This is just a proof of concept and could use further tweaking of the numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be a huge nerf for the Aliens and unless the Marines had something similar would not work.
<!--quoteo(post=2031933:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:29 AM:name=Bullet_Force)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullet_Force @ Nov 22 2012, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be a huge nerf for the Aliens and unless the Marines had something similar would not work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not a bad idea in principle for the onos specifically, but it basically would mean no t-res drops at all of any lifeforms until hive 3.
I think a system like that could be used, however, asside from the onos the other lifeforms should be cheaper than they currently are at hive 3.
In retrospective, it seems like a bad idea because it would make marine comebacks from hive 3 impossible, even if they have amassed a high investment push. Cheap lerks and fades would be too powerful.
<!--quoteo(post=2031933:date=Nov 21 2012, 10:29 PM:name=Bullet_Force)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullet_Force @ Nov 21 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be a huge nerf for the Aliens and unless the Marines had something similar would not work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so? Just curious on why this idea won't work. Mind you, pRes per each lifeform will remain unchanged and the tRes numbers I mentioned above is just an example.
<!--quoteo(post=2031964:date=Nov 21 2012, 11:11 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 21 2012, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In retrospective, it seems like a bad idea because it would make marine comebacks from hive 3 impossible, even if they have amassed a high investment push. Cheap lerks and fades would be too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, that is true. Perhaps once you achieved the third hive, you are forever lock to regular life form cost regardless of losing the hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2031343:date=Nov 21 2012, 06:00 PM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 21 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a quirky idea: - no tres or pres onos. - alien tres income dropped a bit. - a full health, mature hive produces an onos egg for free every 15 minutes. (if it gets injured, the timer stops until it's back to full health).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2031396:date=Nov 21 2012, 06:47 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 21 2012, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was your quirky idea to see marine turtle games go from hours in length to days?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's no particular reason that every subsequent onos would have to be 15 minutes. Could be 15-10-5, 15-5-2-1 or make it scale based on the number of hives etc.
"medic=10 res, m16=30 res, ak47=50 res, nuclear bomb=75 res". That's how the alien game currently tends to play out for me :(.
What about allowing Onos with two hives, but at a considerable armor reduction. When there are 3 hives up the com can research armor plating which upgrades the armor to what it should be allowing it to be the Onos everyone knows and loves.
Comments
Fades having a big hitbox that is mostly face high makes them easier to hit than skulks in a chaos situation.
For the record, at weapons 2 (which is a good midgame upgrade stat) against a carapasc fade, 26 shotgun pellets need to hit. One clip of the shotgun fires 80. You need less than a third of your pellets to hit from a single shotgun clip to kill a fade.
A marine fighting a fade with a shotgun is really not on a tight budget. The fade needs to sink the same number of swipes to kill the marine as the marine needs to sink to kill the fade generally speaking, both are using close range weapons, and the marine can whittle off health with near misses in the mean time. Fade has almost every disadvantage, and that's why they just don't feel that scary when you've got a shot gun.
Right now, to me, the smaller your hitbox is the better you're doing against shotguns until the onos comes out. Gorges and fades HATE shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if anything, your observations should be leading you towards the opinion that shotgun is overpowered... not the fade being underpowered.
i will admit that anything less than a highly skilled fade is guaranteed to take a buckshot in the eye against a highly skilled shotgunner. even the highly skilled fade is at risk against a highly skilled shotgunner, therefore it's preferable to not engage shotgunners at all... which does seem like a problem.
i honestly feel a bit overpowered when i have a shotgun <a href="http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/939261051703831317/D0FF069FD5E7BC21912D37436D53EC32476C8B3A/" target="_blank">http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/93926105...53EC32476C8B3A/</a>, i catch lerks and fades totally by surprise... but because i only play pubs against mostly lesser skilled players; i can't say if it's actually OP or not... (i can get similar KDR when playing as fade too)
This made me giggle. Either way, lets say you are a god like evaluator of situations. Here's a situation where you probably shouldn't go in: marine has a shotgun. Therefore, since a 50 res lifeform is rendered ineffective by the presence of a single weapon, the fade is indeed useless.
edit: I should've read the whole thread first. I see this solution was posted a few times. Consider this post agreeing with you :) .
Then how does the price of gorge/lerk/fade egg differ? If they don't, then that is inconsistent design.
You can apply something similar to other lifeforms. Gorge and Lerk could cost regular tRes on second hive. Fade and Onos could cost regular tRes on third hive.
Example:
lifeform: hive 1 - hive 2 - hive 3
--------------------------------------------
Gorge: 15 tRes - 10 tRes - 10 tRes
Lerk: 45 tRes - 30 tRes - 30 tRes
Fade: 100 tRes - 65 tRes - 50 tRes
Onos: 150 tRes - 100 tRes - 75 tRes
Something like that. This is just a proof of concept and could use further tweaking of the numbers.
Example:
lifeform: hive 1 - hive 2 - hive 3
--------------------------------------------
Gorge: 15 tRes - 10 tRes - 10 tRes
Lerk: 45 tRes - 30 tRes - 30 tRes
Fade: 100 tRes - 65 tRes - 50 tRes
Onos: 150 tRes - 100 tRes - 75 tRes
Something like that. This is just a proof of concept and could use further tweaking of the numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be a huge nerf for the Aliens and unless the Marines had something similar would not work.
It's not a bad idea in principle for the onos specifically, but it basically would mean no t-res drops at all of any lifeforms until hive 3.
I think a system like that could be used, however, asside from the onos the other lifeforms should be cheaper than they currently are at hive 3.
In retrospective, it seems like a bad idea because it would make marine comebacks from hive 3 impossible, even if they have amassed a high investment push. Cheap lerks and fades would be too powerful.
How so? Just curious on why this idea won't work. Mind you, pRes per each lifeform will remain unchanged and the tRes numbers I mentioned above is just an example.
<!--quoteo(post=2031964:date=Nov 21 2012, 11:11 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 21 2012, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In retrospective, it seems like a bad idea because it would make marine comebacks from hive 3 impossible, even if they have amassed a high investment push. Cheap lerks and fades would be too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, that is true. Perhaps once you achieved the third hive, you are forever lock to regular life form cost regardless of losing the hives.
sorry, but since the change pretty much every game has been more open and enjoyable than games where tres onos was spat out in <10 minutes.
if you want your crutch onos to kid yourself into thinking you're a good player, save up your pres.
if aliens turn out to be too weak then we cross that bridge when we come to it - imo anything would be better than reverting the tres onos change.
- no tres or pres onos.
- alien tres income dropped a bit.
- a full health, mature hive produces an onos egg for free every 15 minutes. (if it gets injured, the timer stops until it's back to full health).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2031396:date=Nov 21 2012, 06:47 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 21 2012, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was your quirky idea to see marine turtle games go from hours in length to days?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's no particular reason that every subsequent onos would have to be 15 minutes.
Could be 15-10-5, 15-5-2-1 or make it scale based on the number of hives etc.
"medic=10 res, m16=30 res, ak47=50 res, nuclear bomb=75 res". That's how the alien game currently tends to play out for me :(.