I would recommend telling your marines to go out and kill harvesters. Have a few ninjas on your team go and try and kill the upgrades. Pressure, Pressure, Pressure. Sick of pub players taking a second tech point and sitting there building turrets till onii appear, it's not going to work.
<!--quoteo(post=2034788:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:08 AM:name=Cat-Poker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cat-Poker @ Nov 26 2012, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would recommend telling your marines to go out and kill harvesters. Have a few ninjas on your team go and try and kill the upgrades. Pressure, Pressure, Pressure. Sick of pub players taking a second tech point and sitting there building turrets till onii appear, it's not going to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I endorse this, I just played a game on a 12v12 pub and I spent the entire time killing res nodes with an LMG. Did 65k dmg, 54k of which was to structures. I think I got about 20-30 res towers all game and despite the rest of the teams meager k:ds and lack of them killing res nodes we still won... xD
Was a horribly boring game but oh well.... 54k structure dmg ftw....
<!--quoteo(post=2034591:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:27 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 26 2012, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop pushing your bad ideas in other peoples illegitimate threads. If we had hypermutation (the ability to upgrade with no res lost) back the explosion would be even worse... We would see the entire team go gorge and build the hive instantly, then all go lerk, then all go fade, then all go onos.
Your argument is invalid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not if the lifeforms were actually different, modeled around class-based gameplay instead of this ridiculous notion that each one should be somehow better than the previous. But I guess that thought was lost on you.
Seriously though, when did you start acting like this?
This would be avoided entirely if we stuck with the NS1 res model where only a few players could save up for lifeforms because other players were needed to drop structures and other lower lifeforms...
<!--quoteo(post=2034567:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:13 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 26 2012, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A team of aliens allowed to hold enough resource towers for the entire game without any higher life forms... Sounds like you deserved to lose if you let them do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is all well and good, but you are essentially saying that the marines lose because they don't win. Yes, hamstringing the alien team completely by killing every single harvester on the map would indeed most likely prevent the onos avalanche from occurring. The issue is the feasibility of such an approach. I mean, if this is the marine team's only way of preventing like 4 Onos of appearing all at once and instantly ending the game, then it shouldn't be all that difficult, should it? I mean, its the ONLY way.
Either way, it just seems stale to me. Its either win before 9 minutes as marine, or lose to a pack of Onos at 10. Also, I don't think its a specific case of the fade needing to be better. I mean, if saving for Onos works, then people aren't going to act like magpies and see shinies the second the fade become more viable. They will still save for onos in order to win. I think the problem is that there doesn't seem to be any urgency to get a fade out, no need for the expenditure.
This may potentially be a side effect of balancing the game competitively, rather than in general. In competitive games, by about the 6th or 7th minute, when level 2 upgrades appears, marines are considered vastly superior to skulks, due to skilled aim rapidly increasing their potential, while not scaling as well with aliens. However, less aiming proficiency means less scaling, which means the marines stay a little more in line with a skulk for each level of skill down. At the base, average level of play, skulks are pretty much just as effective as marines. This removes the need for higher lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=2034860:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:42 PM:name=Seahunts)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seahunts @ Nov 25 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have seen this onos avalanche a few times on the weekend. Marines are usually done for if they don't have jet packs.
I would be interested to see what effect changing only the cost of fade would have. Maybe 40 or 45 res?
I had a lot of fun as early fade vs marines with no shot guns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that the onos is so powerful nobody even bothers to play anything else is not a justification to buff other lifeforms to the same level.
I've already posted how avalanches necessitate weak team makeups pre-Onos, but I'd like to expand a bit more on this subject. The Onos explosion is different from a Fade or Lerk explosion (both of which were a common occurrence at one point) because the Onos is a top-of-the-food-chain, do-it-all lifeform. My post from another thread discusses how this came to be, so I'll paste a bit of it here for those who are interested, <!--quoteo(post=2034574:date=Nov 25 2012, 06:17 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 25 2012, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Onos was never supposed to be a front-line combat unit. The implementation of Bone Shield was supposed to allow it to provide damage absorption and cover for reduced maneuverability and an inability to retreat. It was billed as a lifeform that would distract opponents' focus while his team did the killing, a major event without being incredibly strong or a straight upgrade to any other lifeforms. Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. The technical challenges involved in implementing his abilities have necessitated a lifeform with massive HP, unprecedented damage, and impressive maneuverability, an "ultimate" form that was never supposed to exist. Anything less would result in a giant, slow target with no way to effectively contribute to combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason an Onos explosion is so devastating is because the only real way to play an Onos "poorly" is to charge into the entire enemy team alone, and the only reason to play an Onosplosion poorly is to send one of your units in alone while the others wait around in spawn. When Bone Shield is implemented (and we have been told it is planned), we'll be able to see the Onos becoming a useful component of the Alien team instead of the ultimate solution to all Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2034485:date=Nov 25 2012, 05:25 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 25 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about res for POINTS? Add assist points, balance the points given from destroying buildings. Yea this can "snowball" but that's how RTS games work; your small tactical victory adds to your win. I think this is a better way to stagger when life-forms show up without encouraging people to play selfishly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've suggested this several times already, but it usually gets buried underneath all the arguing about the merits and pitfalls of RFK.
It doesn't have to snowball. All you have to do is reward the player with increased res per tick, not with an immediate flat amount of res. The player will reach higher tech/abilities/lifeforms more quickly by contributing in general, as opposed to just fragging.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about res for POINTS? Add assist points, balance the points given from destroying buildings. Yea this can "snowball" but that's how RTS games work; your small tactical victory adds to your win. I think this is a better way to stagger when life-forms show up without encouraging people to play selfishly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bad idea. I often play as lerk and poison around some parts of the map just to not let the marines enter that part. Or as skulk to irritating @ some points and keep 3/4 marines busy with searching me. This scores not much points, but it is a huge contribute to the team. How i get rewarded in these examples? The aliens have another playstyle then the marines. With marines this is more logical, but aliens do allot more work that is not directly are points worth.... Or if a hive is being atacked, all players are on other side on map, somebody has to go back and it are always the lerks (they are fast). In future nobody goes back, because why flying for 2 minutes if you can earn much more assist points and then go Onos faster?
I'm sorry to say this but your style of play does not help your team a lot. All you do is delaying things. Biting resnodes helps your team, forcing a beacon helps your team (costs res), simply playing hide and seek with marines does not do a lot. Also, if it takes you 2 minutes to fly from one side of the map to the other, you are doing something wrong. And the problem of no one defending the hive lies in the need to stay alive in the current system. Give res while respawning and people will defend their hives with their lifes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All you do is delaying things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, delaying things and keep the marines at work. This discussion is not about my playing-style is being effective or not. I think it is.
Yes, i'm flying drunk, i take 2 minutes/ 1 minute etc. What i want to say is that you have tasks that earn not as much points as running behind onos as gorge (as example). With these new system, there are 2 onos, and 6 gorges bilebombing for the points and no players to kill marines that are in other parts.
What you're describing in the OP is nothing more than the game itself.
If aliens are able to hold marines boxed in with skulks, aliens deserve to roflcopter with 5-6 oni at the same time, and steamroll through the marine team while performing læwlz along the way.
Skulks should become more and more inadequate to oppose marines as the game progresses and marines get better tech, a/w levels, and weapons. Towards the end of the game, skulks should be nearly useless by themselves and should repeatedly die to a3w3 SG/JP. You should need lerks, gorges, fades, and two-hive upgrades to effectively oppose marines in the "mid game." If that's not happening, that's a design problem that Charlie should hopefully address. In my experience, the lerks are fine. Fades could use a LITTLE more hp (keyword: LITTLE).
If the marine team is camping and there's no pushing going on anywhere, and aliens control a higher number of RTs, the marines WILL lose. There's no surprises, tears, or complaints involved in that. It's basic RTS math. Better economy -> win.
I've seen the exact same effect on marine teams sometimes. People won't spend their res, and when dual exos are researched, half the team will go exos. That can be equally damaging, because then one or two oni can rush a location that is far away from the exos, and because they can't be beaconed that location is usually lost. If the exos (then usually alone) also go down, sometimes that's the end of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks should become more and more inadequate to oppose marines as the game progresses and marines get better tech, a/w levels, and weapons. Towards the end of the game, skulks should be nearly useless by themselves and should repeatedly die to a3w3 SG/JP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this makes the game fun, die as skulk with 1 shot! And let jetpackers kills skulks faster then it is now, because jetpackers already are so easy for skulks to kill. It is already frustrating enough to die after 5 sec when exo's/ jetpacks/ GL etc are in base. So.., let nerf skulks more to die in 2 sec!! or, spawn with 1 hp when marines get tech 3...
No, the point i made was about res for points is not a good idea. As example for marines. You cleared with 3 marines a room. There is 1 res-tower and 8 cysts. THe first what happens when its a pub-game is that all the three marines goed to the res-tower to knife it (most points), then the cysts and nobody is covering the entrance. Good teamwork! Res for points in comp-games, ok, in pub, not a good idea.
I haven't perceived the 'onos avalanche' to be a problem. It tends to be pretty slow and without intermediate lifeforms aliens don't do terribly well. Saying that, I was thinking about some kind of higher lifeform limit tied to the number of hives.
I don't care much about the actual numbers, but it would make everyone saving for onos less useful, while encouraging the use of lerk/fade. I could see it being a problem in very late game if a significant number of exos are on the field.
<!--quoteo(post=2034524:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:08 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 25 2012, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the reason most people keep saving up for an onos is because:
A) It's easy to play, rack up the kills, and finish off marine bases B) Fade deals less damage, has less survivability, is harder to play and ultimately not nearly as useful as an onos late game
It's kind of like people would rather save up for a duel exo than get the single one, because there's very little reason not to.
So, imo, the fade is the problem. It's a thin line though, make the fade too powerful, and people won't save up for onos at all. But as it is, fade needs to be more viable late game. Every non-skulk lifeform has sufficient tools for the late game. Onos is the meatshield and can knock down groups of marines, lerks provide the aerial support by spamming spores or umbra, and gorges have excellent base destruction/heal capabilities. The fade however, has vortex, which leaves much to be desired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree. The problem is the lack of skill depth to the onos. Any newb can do onos well and it takes an uber pro fade to even kill marines with it. So everyone saves for onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2034799:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:27 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Nov 26 2012, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would be avoided entirely if we stuck with the NS1 res model where only a few players could save up for lifeforms because other players were needed to drop structures and other lower lifeforms...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2034921:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:32 AM:name=Paniohitus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paniohitus @ Nov 26 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, this makes the game fun, die as skulk with 1 shot! And let jetpackers kills skulks faster then it is now, because jetpackers already are so easy for skulks to kill. It is already frustrating enough to die after 5 sec when exo's/ jetpacks/ GL etc are in base. So.., let nerf skulks more to die in 2 sec!! or, spawn with 1 hp when marines get tech 3...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was saying that this is how it is in the game right now. Skulks DO become more and more inadequate to oppose marines as the game progresses. It's the nature of the game. Get a higher life form or lose. There are no changes needed. It is already happening, and that's the game.
Also, it's not much fun to lose, but someone has to lose the game. Losing the game for aliens is losing their higher life forms, and then losing the economic war as well.
Res for kill is IMO a terrible idea which is beyond the scope and discussion of this thread. There are other threads where it has been discussed.
a.k.a don't reinvent the wheel? A horrible mentality which undermines innovation and efficiency. If people hadn't reinvented the wheel, we'd be in the stone age right now.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was broken, so they fixed it.
I'm afraid I must, once again, revert to my opinion that the main problem here is the lack of a second hive ability for the Onos. As long as the Onos is almost as potent with zero upgrades as he is with all of them, the class will remain too powerful when it first appears.
The problem, for me as a player, is simply 'the onos costs 75 resources and will win the game'. The other lifeforms are cheaper, but won't win the game.
[aka: I'll give you $50 in 2 days time, or (if you can wait) $10,000 in 3 days time...]
- I don't see a 'hive 2 ability' being useful. In pub-play aliens often take and hold a second hive 'trivially', and that hive is constructed a long time before onos start to appear. - lifeform limits per hive is mostly viable. There are some obvious 'concerns'... killing an onos should be an event, a 'minor victory'. But, with lifeform limits, it would simply mean another alien player instantly becomes onos. A separate concern is the effects on 'team-bonding' aka "I'm a better fade than you, change to skulk NOW!!" - my prefered solution is to remove the '$10,000' option. Onos cannot be purchased with p-res. Make hives lay onos eggs on a timer or t-res or something.
<!--quoteo(post=2034964:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:43 AM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 26 2012, 03:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem, for me as a player, is simply 'the onos costs 75 resources and will win the game'. The other lifeforms are cheaper, but won't win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a very short-sighted way to play. In a balanced team situation, you'd be pushed back and beaten before you can get to onos, if you don't get the necessary gorges, lerks, and fades to maintain your economy and hives, and put significant pressure on marine positions. One, two, three people saving for onos may be fine, but somebody's gotta win or at least hold the mid-game when skulks can't quite keep up.
It's the same on marine side: in a balanced game, somebody has to invest in early mines and shotguns. If the entire team waits for jetpacks and exos, they'll be pushed back and beaten before they can even get those.
If you're winning with skulks or ARs, it's very likely that the teams are stacked :-) .
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks should become more and more inadequate to oppose marines as the game progresses and marines get better tech, a/w levels, and weapons. Towards the end of the game, skulks should be nearly useless by themselves and should repeatedly die to a3w3 SG/JP. You should need lerks, gorges, fades, and two-hive upgrades to effectively oppose marines in the "mid game." If that's not happening, that's a design problem that Charlie should hopefully address. In my experience, the lerks are fine. Fades could use a LITTLE more hp (keyword: LITTLE).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was hoping you were being sarcastic, because marines already outscale skulks hard as the game progresses. It's a horrid mechanic, as it completely makes skulks unfun to play in that stage of the game, and you're going to end up playing them at one point or another, even lategame, whether you like it or not. In NS 1 skulks actually scaled, there were no tech explosions and all lifeforms were equally viable. Now THAT was proper design.
<!--quoteo(post=2034968:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:50 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Nov 26 2012, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see this happening that often tbh.
And if it does.. the Marines deserve it for letting the Aliens hold 90 harvesters.
So, I don't see the point in OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, as I stated later on, in a competitive setting marines scale very quickly with upgrades, whereas skulks do not (the skill ceiling of aiming versus biting ect ect). I'm sure that, in a competitive game, basically every member of the alien team will have spent at least SOME res by the 10th minute, out of necessity rather than personal choice. This simply is not the case in public play. At least not in my experience.
<!--quoteo(post=2034977:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:04 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 26 2012, 04:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was hoping you were being sarcastic, because marines already outscale skulks hard as the game progresses. It's a horrid mechanic, as it completely makes skulks unfun to play in that stage of the game, and you're going to end up playing them at one point or another, even lategame, whether you like it or not. In NS 1 skulks actually scaled, there were no tech explosions and all lifeforms were equally viable. Now THAT was proper design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's punishing for sure. If you lose your fade or onos, or a lerk early game, you're likely to have to wait for a while and play as a crappy skulk in the mid- or late-game.
However, I don't think it's necessarily "unfun" as much as losing the game is "unfun." It's just different from NS1 from what it sounds like.
If skulks scaled perfectly to the point of being able to easily contend with a3w3 jp/sg marines, what would be the point of getting a fade or an onos?
During the last days I encountered several cases of onos and exo avalanche. Some succesfully ending the game, some being countered and leading to victory of the opposing team. Also I see many lerks and some fades. Proper teamplay with an organized Skulk-Mob can be as effective.
I think some people just need something to complain about.
<!--quoteo(post=2034990:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:34 PM:name=d.n.M.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d.n.M. @ Nov 26 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->During the last days I encountered several cases of onos and exo avalanche. Some succesfully ending the game, some being countered and leading to victory of the opposing team. Also I see many lerks and some fades. Proper teamplay with an organized Skulk-Mob can be as effective.
I think some people just need something to complain about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think exo avalanche is as big an issue, at least not from the perspective of core mechanic problems. This is because marines are far more willing to spend their res on things. Shotguns, mines, welders. They are all bought in abundance by marines of all skill levels. As a commander, I sometimes purposefully engineer an exo avalanche scenario but upgrading absolutely no purchasable items. This obviously has its consequences, but since its a conscious choice, I think its fine.
<!--quoteo(post=2034984:date=Nov 26 2012, 06:13 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 06:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's punishing for sure. If you lose your fade or onos, or a lerk early game, you're likely to have to wait for a while and play as a crappy skulk in the mid- or late-game.
However, I don't think it's necessarily "unfun" as much as losing the game is "unfun." It's just different from NS1 from what it sounds like.
If skulks scaled perfectly to the point of being able to easily contend with a3w3 jp/sg marines, what would be the point of getting a fade or an onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should just A and W 3 marines be allowed to compete with even an onos when base skulks can't compete with A and W 3 JPs? Surely you can see there's some flawed logic for you. IN NS both marines and aliens scaled, but had lifeforms and Heavy Armour/HMGs on top of that, to specialise and provide that 'added punch'. Marines without HA and/or HMG didn't really stand a chance versus an onos and skulks didn't really stand a chance versus HA/HMG. It doesn't take much experience to see that this was much better design than what we have in NS 2 today.
<!--quoteo(post=2034973:date=Nov 26 2012, 10:58 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a very short-sighted way to play. In a balanced team situation, you'd be pushed back and beaten before you can get to onos, if you don't get the necessary gorges, lerks, and fades to maintain your economy and hives, and put significant pressure on marine positions. One, two, three people saving for onos may be fine, but somebody's gotta win or at least hold the mid-game when skulks can't quite keep up.
If you're winning with skulks or ARs, it's very likely that the teams are stacked :-) .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm in the EU, and usually play 16 player servers: - aliens almost always get 2 hives (when playing as alien, I can only remember 2 occaisions where this did not happen). - skulks can usually harass the marine team adequately to defend 2 hives until onos appear... providing the khommander does not take the shade hive. If you have the shade hive, mid-game becomes unnecessarily hard unless the aliens "pwned" the early game or the marine commander is a bit silly. - marines almost always get shotguns, most players aren't actually very good with shotguns. - jetpacks tend to appear slightly prior to onos.
There are 'great' lerks, one in particular... there are also 'good' fades. But in a match with neither, providing you go shift->crag, get leap and save for onos, in my experience the alien team has a >50% to win. (when I khommanded, I went absolutely mental when I discovered no-one had been saving for onos o_O).
Easy fix: set a max. limit. Lets say max. three Onoses (same way for exos!)
Complicated fix:
Redesign the aliens. Do not allow aliens to evolve into higher lifeforms. Higher Lifeforms are given only by the khammander. So we need a new System for aliens to spend their Pres. One example could be: the commander upgrades still the hive into shade,shift,crag. When the shift-hive growth up and an upgradespur is build, the aliens choose and buy their upgrades themselves. The player could spend now 10 Pres for permanent celerity on skulks and another 10 Pres for permanent adrenalin on skulks . Hes now able to choose between celerity and adrenalin for skulks as long the spur is up (only one spur needed for both upgrades). If he want to use permanent celerity/adrenalin on fade/gorge/onos/lerk he needs to spend additional 10 Pres. Same way for permanent abilitys like leap for 15-20 Pres. Set the max. Pres to 30. If reached --> the now gained ressources goes to the khammander.
(maybe, alienplayers should be able to evolve still into gorge for 10 Pres)
Complicated complicated fix:
Use previous solution + add some new crazy abilitys to the aliens that costs Pres one use.
Comments
I endorse this, I just played a game on a 12v12 pub and I spent the entire time killing res nodes with an LMG.
Did 65k dmg, 54k of which was to structures. I think I got about 20-30 res towers all game and despite the rest of the teams meager k:ds and lack of them killing res nodes we still won... xD
Was a horribly boring game but oh well.... 54k structure dmg ftw....
If we had hypermutation (the ability to upgrade with no res lost) back the explosion would be even worse...
We would see the entire team go gorge and build the hive instantly, then all go lerk, then all go fade, then all go onos.
Your argument is invalid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if the lifeforms were actually different, modeled around class-based gameplay instead of this ridiculous notion that each one should be somehow better than the previous. But I guess that thought was lost on you.
Seriously though, when did you start acting like this?
Sounds like you deserved to lose if you let them do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is all well and good, but you are essentially saying that the marines lose because they don't win. Yes, hamstringing the alien team completely by killing every single harvester on the map would indeed most likely prevent the onos avalanche from occurring. The issue is the feasibility of such an approach. I mean, if this is the marine team's only way of preventing like 4 Onos of appearing all at once and instantly ending the game, then it shouldn't be all that difficult, should it? I mean, its the ONLY way.
Either way, it just seems stale to me. Its either win before 9 minutes as marine, or lose to a pack of Onos at 10. Also, I don't think its a specific case of the fade needing to be better. I mean, if saving for Onos works, then people aren't going to act like magpies and see shinies the second the fade become more viable. They will still save for onos in order to win. I think the problem is that there doesn't seem to be any urgency to get a fade out, no need for the expenditure.
This may potentially be a side effect of balancing the game competitively, rather than in general. In competitive games, by about the 6th or 7th minute, when level 2 upgrades appears, marines are considered vastly superior to skulks, due to skilled aim rapidly increasing their potential, while not scaling as well with aliens. However, less aiming proficiency means less scaling, which means the marines stay a little more in line with a skulk for each level of skill down. At the base, average level of play, skulks are pretty much just as effective as marines. This removes the need for higher lifeforms.
Marines are usually done for if they don't have jet packs.
I would be interested to see what effect changing only the cost of fade would have.
Maybe 40 or 45 res?
I had a lot of fun as early fade vs marines with no shot guns.
Marines are usually done for if they don't have jet packs.
I would be interested to see what effect changing only the cost of fade would have.
Maybe 40 or 45 res?
I had a lot of fun as early fade vs marines with no shot guns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that the onos is so powerful nobody even bothers to play anything else is not a justification to buff other lifeforms to the same level.
<!--quoteo(post=2034574:date=Nov 25 2012, 06:17 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 25 2012, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Onos was never supposed to be a front-line combat unit. The implementation of Bone Shield was supposed to allow it to provide damage absorption and cover for reduced maneuverability and an inability to retreat. It was billed as a lifeform that would distract opponents' focus while his team did the killing, a major event without being incredibly strong or a straight upgrade to any other lifeforms. Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. The technical challenges involved in implementing his abilities have necessitated a lifeform with massive HP, unprecedented damage, and impressive maneuverability, an "ultimate" form that was never supposed to exist. Anything less would result in a giant, slow target with no way to effectively contribute to combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason an Onos explosion is so devastating is because the only real way to play an Onos "poorly" is to charge into the entire enemy team alone, and the only reason to play an Onosplosion poorly is to send one of your units in alone while the others wait around in spawn. When Bone Shield is implemented (and we have been told it is planned), we'll be able to see the Onos becoming a useful component of the Alien team instead of the ultimate solution to all Marines.
I've suggested this several times already, but it usually gets buried underneath all the arguing about the merits and pitfalls of RFK.
It doesn't have to snowball. All you have to do is reward the player with increased res per tick, not with an immediate flat amount of res. The player will reach higher tech/abilities/lifeforms more quickly by contributing in general, as opposed to just fragging.
Bad idea. I often play as lerk and poison around some parts of the map just to not let the marines enter that part. Or as skulk to irritating @ some points and keep 3/4 marines busy with searching me. This scores not much points, but it is a huge contribute to the team. How i get rewarded in these examples? The aliens have another playstyle then the marines. With marines this is more logical, but aliens do allot more work that is not directly are points worth.... Or if a hive is being atacked, all players are on other side on map, somebody has to go back and it are always the lerks (they are fast). In future nobody goes back, because why flying for 2 minutes if you can earn much more assist points and then go Onos faster?
And the problem of no one defending the hive lies in the need to stay alive in the current system. Give res while respawning and people will defend their hives with their lifes.
yes, delaying things and keep the marines at work. This discussion is not about my playing-style is being effective or not. I think it is.
Yes, i'm flying drunk, i take 2 minutes/ 1 minute etc. What i want to say is that you have tasks that earn not as much points as running behind onos as gorge (as example). With these new system, there are 2 onos, and 6 gorges bilebombing for the points and no players to kill marines that are in other parts.
If aliens are able to hold marines boxed in with skulks, aliens deserve to roflcopter with 5-6 oni at the same time, and steamroll through the marine team while performing læwlz along the way.
Skulks should become more and more inadequate to oppose marines as the game progresses and marines get better tech, a/w levels, and weapons. Towards the end of the game, skulks should be nearly useless by themselves and should repeatedly die to a3w3 SG/JP. You should need lerks, gorges, fades, and two-hive upgrades to effectively oppose marines in the "mid game." If that's not happening, that's a design problem that Charlie should hopefully address. In my experience, the lerks are fine. Fades could use a LITTLE more hp (keyword: LITTLE).
If the marine team is camping and there's no pushing going on anywhere, and aliens control a higher number of RTs, the marines WILL lose. There's no surprises, tears, or complaints involved in that. It's basic RTS math. Better economy -> win.
I've seen the exact same effect on marine teams sometimes. People won't spend their res, and when dual exos are researched, half the team will go exos. That can be equally damaging, because then one or two oni can rush a location that is far away from the exos, and because they can't be beaconed that location is usually lost. If the exos (then usually alone) also go down, sometimes that's the end of the game.
Yes, this makes the game fun, die as skulk with 1 shot! And let jetpackers kills skulks faster then it is now, because jetpackers already are so easy for skulks to kill. It is already frustrating enough to die after 5 sec when exo's/ jetpacks/ GL etc are in base. So.., let nerf skulks more to die in 2 sec!! or, spawn with 1 hp when marines get tech 3...
No, the point i made was about res for points is not a good idea. As example for marines. You cleared with 3 marines a room. There is 1 res-tower and 8 cysts. THe first what happens when its a pub-game is that all the three marines goed to the res-tower to knife it (most points), then the cysts and nobody is covering the entrance. Good teamwork! Res for points in comp-games, ok, in pub, not a good idea.
For example:
1 hive: 1 onos, 2 fades, 3 lerks
2 hives: 2 onos, 3 fades, 4 lerks
3 hives: 3 onos, 4 fades, 5 lerks
I don't care much about the actual numbers, but it would make everyone saving for onos less useful, while encouraging the use of lerk/fade. I could see it being a problem in very late game if a significant number of exos are on the field.
1 hive: 1 onos, 2 fades, 3 lerks
2 hives: 2 onos, 3 fades, 4 lerks
3 hives: 3 onos, 4 fades, 5 lerks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good suggestion!
A) It's easy to play, rack up the kills, and finish off marine bases
B) Fade deals less damage, has less survivability, is harder to play and ultimately not nearly as useful as an onos late game
It's kind of like people would rather save up for a duel exo than get the single one, because there's very little reason not to.
So, imo, the fade is the problem. It's a thin line though, make the fade too powerful, and people won't save up for onos at all. But as it is, fade needs to be more viable late game. Every non-skulk lifeform has sufficient tools for the late game. Onos is the meatshield and can knock down groups of marines, lerks provide the aerial support by spamming spores or umbra, and gorges have excellent base destruction/heal capabilities. The fade however, has vortex, which leaves much to be desired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree. The problem is the lack of skill depth to the onos. Any newb can do onos well and it takes an uber pro fade to even kill marines with it. So everyone saves for onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2034799:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:27 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Nov 26 2012, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would be avoided entirely if we stuck with the NS1 res model where only a few players could save up for lifeforms because other players were needed to drop structures and other lower lifeforms...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smart man.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
I was saying that this is how it is in the game right now. Skulks DO become more and more inadequate to oppose marines as the game progresses. It's the nature of the game. Get a higher life form or lose. There are no changes needed. It is already happening, and that's the game.
Also, it's not much fun to lose, but someone has to lose the game. Losing the game for aliens is losing their higher life forms, and then losing the economic war as well.
Res for kill is IMO a terrible idea which is beyond the scope and discussion of this thread. There are other threads where it has been discussed.
<!--quoteo(post=2034929:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:46 AM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 26 2012, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it ain't broke don't fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a.k.a don't reinvent the wheel? A horrible mentality which undermines innovation and efficiency. If people hadn't reinvented the wheel, we'd be in the stone age right now.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was broken, so they fixed it.
I'm afraid I must, once again, revert to my opinion that the main problem here is the lack of a second hive ability for the Onos. As long as the Onos is almost as potent with zero upgrades as he is with all of them, the class will remain too powerful when it first appears.
[aka: I'll give you $50 in 2 days time, or (if you can wait) $10,000 in 3 days time...]
- I don't see a 'hive 2 ability' being useful. In pub-play aliens often take and hold a second hive 'trivially', and that hive is constructed a long time before onos start to appear.
- lifeform limits per hive is mostly viable. There are some obvious 'concerns'... killing an onos should be an event, a 'minor victory'. But, with lifeform limits, it would simply mean another alien player instantly becomes onos. A separate concern is the effects on 'team-bonding' aka "I'm a better fade than you, change to skulk NOW!!"
- my prefered solution is to remove the '$10,000' option. Onos cannot be purchased with p-res. Make hives lay onos eggs on a timer or t-res or something.
And if it does.. the Marines deserve it for letting the Aliens hold 90 harvesters.
So, I don't see the point in OP.
That's a very short-sighted way to play. In a balanced team situation, you'd be pushed back and beaten before you can get to onos, if you don't get the necessary gorges, lerks, and fades to maintain your economy and hives, and put significant pressure on marine positions. One, two, three people saving for onos may be fine, but somebody's gotta win or at least hold the mid-game when skulks can't quite keep up.
It's the same on marine side: in a balanced game, somebody has to invest in early mines and shotguns. If the entire team waits for jetpacks and exos, they'll be pushed back and beaten before they can even get those.
If you're winning with skulks or ARs, it's very likely that the teams are stacked :-) .
I was hoping you were being sarcastic, because marines already outscale skulks hard as the game progresses. It's a horrid mechanic, as it completely makes skulks unfun to play in that stage of the game, and you're going to end up playing them at one point or another, even lategame, whether you like it or not. In NS 1 skulks actually scaled, there were no tech explosions and all lifeforms were equally viable. Now THAT was proper design.
And if it does.. the Marines deserve it for letting the Aliens hold 90 harvesters.
So, I don't see the point in OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, as I stated later on, in a competitive setting marines scale very quickly with upgrades, whereas skulks do not (the skill ceiling of aiming versus biting ect ect). I'm sure that, in a competitive game, basically every member of the alien team will have spent at least SOME res by the 10th minute, out of necessity rather than personal choice. This simply is not the case in public play. At least not in my experience.
It's punishing for sure. If you lose your fade or onos, or a lerk early game, you're likely to have to wait for a while and play as a crappy skulk in the mid- or late-game.
However, I don't think it's necessarily "unfun" as much as losing the game is "unfun." It's just different from NS1 from what it sounds like.
If skulks scaled perfectly to the point of being able to easily contend with a3w3 jp/sg marines, what would be the point of getting a fade or an onos?
I think some people just need something to complain about.
I think some people just need something to complain about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think exo avalanche is as big an issue, at least not from the perspective of core mechanic problems. This is because marines are far more willing to spend their res on things. Shotguns, mines, welders. They are all bought in abundance by marines of all skill levels. As a commander, I sometimes purposefully engineer an exo avalanche scenario but upgrading absolutely no purchasable items. This obviously has its consequences, but since its a conscious choice, I think its fine.
However, I don't think it's necessarily "unfun" as much as losing the game is "unfun." It's just different from NS1 from what it sounds like.
If skulks scaled perfectly to the point of being able to easily contend with a3w3 jp/sg marines, what would be the point of getting a fade or an onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should just A and W 3 marines be allowed to compete with even an onos when base skulks can't compete with A and W 3 JPs? Surely you can see there's some flawed logic for you. IN NS both marines and aliens scaled, but had lifeforms and Heavy Armour/HMGs on top of that, to specialise and provide that 'added punch'. Marines without HA and/or HMG didn't really stand a chance versus an onos and skulks didn't really stand a chance versus HA/HMG. It doesn't take much experience to see that this was much better design than what we have in NS 2 today.
If you're winning with skulks or ARs, it's very likely that the teams are stacked :-) .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm in the EU, and usually play 16 player servers:
- aliens almost always get 2 hives (when playing as alien, I can only remember 2 occaisions where this did not happen).
- skulks can usually harass the marine team adequately to defend 2 hives until onos appear... providing the khommander does not take the shade hive. If you have the shade hive, mid-game becomes unnecessarily hard unless the aliens "pwned" the early game or the marine commander is a bit silly.
- marines almost always get shotguns, most players aren't actually very good with shotguns.
- jetpacks tend to appear slightly prior to onos.
There are 'great' lerks, one in particular... there are also 'good' fades. But in a match with neither, providing you go shift->crag, get leap and save for onos, in my experience the alien team has a >50% to win. (when I khommanded, I went absolutely mental when I discovered no-one had been saving for onos o_O).
Complicated fix:
Redesign the aliens. Do not allow aliens to evolve into higher lifeforms. Higher Lifeforms are given only by the khammander. So we need a new System for aliens to spend their Pres. One example could be: the commander upgrades still the hive into shade,shift,crag. When the shift-hive growth up and an upgradespur is build, the aliens choose and buy their upgrades themselves. The player could spend now 10 Pres for permanent celerity on skulks and another 10 Pres for permanent adrenalin on skulks . Hes now able to choose between celerity and adrenalin for skulks as long the spur is up (only one spur needed for both upgrades). If he want to use permanent celerity/adrenalin on fade/gorge/onos/lerk he needs to spend additional 10 Pres. Same way for permanent abilitys like leap for 15-20 Pres. Set the max. Pres to 30. If reached --> the now gained ressources goes to the khammander.
(maybe, alienplayers should be able to evolve still into gorge for 10 Pres)
Complicated complicated fix:
Use previous solution + add some new crazy abilitys to the aliens that costs Pres one use.