You missed the point being made, which is pretty much what has been going on this thread. people who don't like (can't) bunnyhop make false assumptions about what its proponents believe so they can disagree.
bhop isn't realistic. much of the current movement mechanics isn't realistic, everyone knows this. what we do have however is an inhuman class of characters who rely on their movement abilities more than the regular human based fps. give them something way to move beyond the basic, and have it be a skill set (like aim for a marine) which can never be truly perfected.
bhop wont be the most realistic way to achieve this goal but it has been the best thus far at doing so,
<!--quoteo(post=2036359:date=Nov 27 2012, 11:19 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 27 2012, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should know that changing your direction while jumping midair perverts any physical laws of reality. Bhop is not realistic. Games dont have to be realistic. The issue with bhop is, is it fun to learn and practice bhop/play vs a bhopper? Lots of people say it looks ridiculous. It is not logical to be faster while moving zig zag compared to running straight. Walljump simply fits the skulk much better than bunnyhopping. Plus it pushes skulks towards attacking in narrow corridors instead of open areas. Sure it can be improved, maybe they the devs are even working on it or have some plans. The mechanic of keeping momentum the first time you hit the ground looks like an interesting idea for example. Why not look into it, maybe make a mod and try it out instead of whining on the forums (i know, forum game is fun)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the more reasonable argument some people have brought up here. Depth is always a good thing, but specifically wanting the return of "bunny hopping", a mechanic from a 10+ year old engine, is not really progress or creative. This is a thread with no real discussion, ie: We want a fun, deep, intuitive movement system, but that is completely up to the developers. Anything else is just empty talkl
<!--quoteo(post=2036410:date=Nov 28 2012, 01:36 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Nov 28 2012, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You missed the point being made, which is pretty much what has been going on this thread. people who don't like (can't) bunnyhop make false assumptions about what its proponents believe so they can disagree.
bhop isn't realistic. much of the current movement mechanics isn't realistic, everyone knows this. what we do have however is an inhuman class of characters who rely on their movement abilities more than the regular human based fps. give them something way to move beyond the basic, and have it be a skill set (like aim for a marine) which can never be truly perfected.
bhop wont be the most realistic way to achieve this goal but it has been the best thus far at doing so,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make it so you can ski like tribes. And fly airplanes and tanks. Then we can all do cartwheels down Mineshaft to avoid the skulks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When someone else comes up with a alternative to bunnyhopping that is as good as it is, please share it with us!
<!--quoteo(post=2036410:date=Nov 28 2012, 05:36 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Nov 28 2012, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->people who don't like (can't) bunnyhop make false assumptions about what its proponents believe so they can disagree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PLEASE STOP making this CRETINOUS assumption that people who don't like bhop can't do it. It's simply not true, as I've pointed out at least twice in this thread already. It is NOT an argument that holds any water! Stop it!
<!--quoteo(post=2036410:date=Nov 28 2012, 05:36 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Nov 28 2012, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bhop wont be the most realistic way to achieve this goal but it has been the best thus far at doing so,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BHopping in older games, aside from being primarily a bug which many people liked (myself included at the time!), wasn't the best way to implement a skill-based movement system: it was the easiest and, pragmatically, the <i>only practical way</i> to do it. That doesn't mean it was the best way, and what UWE are trying with the wall-jumping is a good way to at least TRY to discover a system which fulfils the following criteria, which I hope everyone agrees are all worthwhile goals:
a) rewards player skill b) improves game depth c) doesn't alienate (forgive the pun) newbies d) doesn't make the game look completely ridiculous (less important, need to sort out animations first!) e) doesn't seem like cheating to the uninitiated (NB this is important!)
<b>As yet, wall-jumping doesn't achieve any of those perfectly</b> (except perhaps e), for different reasons, but that alone is NOT a reason to go back to implementing an engine glitch because those of us old enough to remember bombing around maps at 100mph have some warm and fuzzy nostalgia trip. Instead, we should be trying to help UWE out with ideas and suggestions that better achieve goals a-c and e, above (and goal d if possible). Bunny hopping achieves a and b, but fails horribly at c, d and e.
The fade's movement is actually a great example of a skill-based movement system that rewards practice, has a high skill-ceiling and doesn't alienate players: all of the things you need to move fast are advertised, <i>bona fide</i> abilities: shadowstep, double jump, blink: there's no mysterious magic behind it to the new player ("no no no, doesn't wiggle like that, wiggle like <i>this</i>..."), but it's extremely powerful in the right hands, and it doesn't seem like cheating to the uninitiated (blue trail helps here).
If the fade and lerk can have their own movement systems that go a long way to sating the desire that the vast majority of us share - a skill-based movement system that rewards good play - why shouldn't the skulk get something comparable? Surely this would be a far better focus of all our energies rather than to-ing and fro-ing about bunnyhopping!!
I have yet to see a coherent argument for going back to bunnyhopping that seems reasonable or sensible, and will people PLEASE stop thinking that those of us against bhopping can't do it and are jealous, because that's - at least in my case - simply not true and only undermines anything else you say.
<!--quoteo(post=2036410:date=Nov 28 2012, 04:36 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Nov 28 2012, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You missed the point being made, which is pretty much what has been going on this thread. people who don't like (can't) bunnyhop make false assumptions about what its proponents believe so they can disagree.
bhop isn't realistic. much of the current movement mechanics isn't realistic, everyone knows this. what we do have however is an inhuman class of characters who rely on their movement abilities more than the regular human based fps. give them something way to move beyond the basic, and have it be a skill set (like aim for a marine) which can never be truly perfected.
bhop wont be the most realistic way to achieve this goal but it has been the best thus far at doing so,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not about realism, it's about accessibility. It's one thing to give players difficult to master movement techniques that make sense and aren't that bad to start doing to begin with, it's another thing entirely to just put completely random crap into your game to make it "hard". Competitive players mistake ease of use for skill ceiling mechanics. People understand that someone who trains the game all day long for hours are going to be better than them, people don't understand when someone can fly at twice the speed they can move for no discernible reason.
Bhopping is NOT discernible. Doing it requires an understanding of a physics system that isn't well documented anywhere, and is completely contrary to the logical methods of locomotion within the game. If you tell someone "hey look, you get a speed boost when you bounce off the walls, so you want to combo bounces to get the most speed you can" that makes sense. If you tell someone "well, you have to not press forward, and you need to exploit an error in the player physics calculations that allow for acceleration by curving the strafe input with the mouse movement via air control" it sounds like french, it's not a comprehensible system. To become a bhopper you climb a 50 foot cliff face simply to start gaining speed in the first place, and then you basically hit a plateau, where you just do it naturally, and the hardest thing are micro improvements. It wasn't really even a very good skill based movement system, it was just what we were used to, and what was fun for us at that time, the patterns were predictable and in many cases restrictive. We worried about 1 unit edges in the floor for god's sake. These days though, it's old and ugly compared to what else is out there in the world, let alone what we could potentially come up with by learning from what other games have done to address the issue and expanding upon that.
Fundamentally, the claim that it "has been the best thus far" is so dumb. The best for what? Other games had MUCH better skill based movement than NS ever did, even with it's bhopping. Quake 3 and Warsaw are both much more interesting skill based movement systems. The Specialists had some AMAZING systems in place (although granted they were equally as incomprehensible as NS's bhoppping). CS 1.6 with all the extra restrictions put in place to "cap" the max speed of bunnyhopping actually made an ASTONISHINGLY beautiful skill based movement system that has been exploited and mastered to literally awe inspiring levels by KZ jumpers. Source mods allowed for some extremely cool things. Source forts and TF2 broke ground into some utterly nuts tricks when it came to rocket and explosive jumping. There are many more sources of inspiration to draw from as well. A skill based movement system can be designed, there's no requirement to use something old just because making a new skill based system is 'hard'.
Bunnyhopping was nice for it's time, but it's old, and it was broken in a lot of ways, it's time to move on to greener pastures.
<!--quoteo(post=2036488:date=Nov 28 2012, 01:59 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 28 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quake 3 and Warsaw are both much more interesting skill based movement systems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you give an example what makes for example Q3 a "much more interesting system"? The plasma and rocket jumping add some possibilities, but the basic structure is very similar to HL engine. I can see Q3 being better suited for some things, but worse for others.
<!--quoteo(post=2036504:date=Nov 28 2012, 09:37 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 28 2012, 09:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you give an example what makes for example Q3 a "much more interesting system"? The plasma and rocket jumping add some possibilities, but the basic structure is very similar to HL engine. I can see Q3 being better suited for some things, but worse for others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g24fe4bwu0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g24fe4bwu0</a>
It's similar, but it has a very different feel to GoldSource air control. Executing the required movements has a feel of launching yourself off of your back leg, as opposed to simply utilizing a completely arbitrary in game physics system. The majority of the speed is gained through the interactions with the ground, rather than the interactions with the air acceleration, which just has a much more natural feeling.
[edit] it's most interesting because you have the same effect as GldSrc bhopping, in that you gain signification speed through a system of jumping and air control, but it's not based on an arbitrary physics system error, and it's much more easy to explain to a new player, and it still feels equally fun and satisfying once mastered.
It's similar, but it has a very different feel to GoldSource air control. Executing the required movements has a feel of launching yourself off of your back leg, as opposed to simply utilizing a completely arbitrary in game physics system. The majority of the speed is gained through the interactions with the ground, rather than the interactions with the air acceleration, which just has a much more natural feeling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do agree it has a different feel, but nothing you point out makes it considerably more interesting or anything. I can do both, I prefer bhop's feel. You apparently prefer strafejumping, which probably is more intuitive in a certain way. However, it's in no way more considerably more interesting or clearly superior movement system, it just has a bit different logic and feel in it.
<!--quoteo(post=2036507:date=Nov 28 2012, 02:43 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 28 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[edit] it's most interesting because you have the same effect as GldSrc bhopping, in that you gain signification speed through a system of jumping and air control, but it's not based on an arbitrary physics system error, and it's much more easy to explain to a new player, and it still feels equally fun and satisfying once mastered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If we are talking about purely intuitiviness, I'll go for Q3 system any given day. If we are talking about being interesting, I'll go for bhop - especially in a melee based environment of NS alien play. There's a world of difference between those two characterstics. The marine sprint is intuitive, but it doesn't make it one bit interesting or deep.
In theory I'd say strafe jumping is deeper than bunny hopping because the optimal angle of acceleration varies with your speed, whereas with bunny hopping it's always 90 degrees from your current heading. There are various modes of strafe jumping (half beat, inverted etc.) and hitting the right angle when switching side requires a lot of practice, while with bunny hopping the most complex thing you can do is alternating left and right while rocking the mouse back and forth.
In practice though I think the problem most people have with strafe jumping is that it doesn't give you as much air control as bunny hopping. This is certainly a concern in a game like NS with its cramped spaces and twisting corridors. However, after having perhaps a few beers to many, I got the crazy thought that this might be an excellent fit together with wall jumping. I.e. strafe jumping to accelerate, wall jumping to take corners. Possibly retaining the same kind of air control but without the acceleration while only holding forward.
As an experiment I started working on a mod which replaces fall acceleration with strafe jumping. So far it's working fine, other than there being way too much interaction with the floor, even with jump queueing, which throws you off course. This will probably require some reorganizing of the player physics code to fix, and I still need to tweak the air acceleration and air friction values to something more sensible.
I'm not sure if anyone is at all interested in this, but I'll keep you informed and eventually upload it to the Workshop.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhopping is NOT discernible. Doing it requires an understanding of a physics system that isn't well documented anywhere, and is completely contrary to the logical methods of locomotion within the game. If you tell someone "hey look, you get a speed boost when you bounce off the walls, so you want to combo bounces to get the most speed you can" that makes sense. If you tell someone "well, you have to not press forward, and you need to exploit an error in the player physics calculations that allow for acceleration by curving the strafe input with the mouse movement via air control" it sounds like french, it's not a comprehensible system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but it would be very easy to make bhop discernible. If you implement it like in NS2c all you need to do to start gain speed is to press W, strafe and move your mouse in the direction of your strafing while in the air. This will happen by chance for any player within few hours of play. All you need to do is add some feedback mechanism that tells you that you did something special there. It can be sound or visual feedback (e.g. something subtle like the air sound of the lerk), it can also be mouse feedback like in warsow. The player will go "woo what's that? let me try again!". The feedback can be made optional if it's too annoying once you learned the mechanic.
The current wall jump/fall jump is not discernible, as the only feedback you get is a modest speed boost, something new players are not really paying attention to. The old wall jump was much better in this regard, with the different skulk sounds when the timing was good.
<!--quoteo(post=2036547:date=Nov 28 2012, 06:03 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 28 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you implement it like in NS2c all you need to do to start gain speed is to press W, strafe and move your mouse in the direction of your strafing while in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Guess I need to try the latest version of NS2c. Is this strafe jumping or does it just ignore the forward key?
Bunny hopping in a nuthshell... Does it require skill? Yes But Is it an exploit? Yes Did it ruin or alter the original and intended gameplay? Yes Does it make the game look ridiculous and stupid? Yes
It requires a lot of skill and is fun to be a yoyomaster. Yeah... but its a pretty useless skill and you'd look retarded trying to pick up girls with it. That's how I feel about bunnyhopping.
An ability-based movement system (ie something for the skulk that mirrors the skill-requirements of the lerk and fade) would seem to me to make far more sense to me than tweaking air friction values and interaction with the floor - this is all engine stuff that is NOT INTUITIVE!
See my post on the previous page:
<!--QuoteBegin-me+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (me)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what UWE are trying with the wall-jumping is a good way to at least TRY to discover a system which fulfils the following criteria, which I hope everyone agrees are all worthwhile goals:
a) rewards player skill b) improves game depth c) doesn't alienate (forgive the pun) newbies d) doesn't make the game look completely ridiculous (less important, need to sort out animations first!) e) doesn't seem like cheating to the uninitiated (NB this is important!)
...<snip><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing suggested since that post does anything to address point e. In addition, air control for a lifeform without wings or really any discernible aerodynamic features on its model makes no sense at all, unless it's built in as an obvious and specific ability (like all 3 of the fade's movement abilities and of course, the lerk).
Coming up with another way to model bunnyhopping isn't productive!
<!--quoteo(post=2036551:date=Nov 28 2012, 10:11 AM:name=Ohnojojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ohnojojo @ Nov 28 2012, 10:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping in a nuthshell... Does it require skill? Yes But Is it an exploit? Yes Did it ruin or alter the original and intended gameplay? Yes Does it make the game look ridiculous and stupid? Yes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not an exploit if directly implemented by the developers (as warsow for instance). And the "ridiculous and stupid" argument pales in comparison to the fact that it simply makes the game <b>better</b>.
comp_, I wouldn't even bother replying to posts like that which have already been addressed two pages ago. just let the people who didn't bother reading look like idiots
<!--quoteo(post=2036540:date=Nov 28 2012, 07:48 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Nov 28 2012, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In theory I'd say strafe jumping is deeper than bunny hopping because the optimal angle of acceleration varies with your speed, whereas with bunny hopping it's always 90 degrees from your current heading. There are various modes of strafe jumping (half beat, inverted etc.) and hitting the right angle when switching side requires a lot of practice, while with bunny hopping the most complex thing you can do is alternating left and right while rocking the mouse back and forth.
In practice though I think the problem most people have with strafe jumping is that it doesn't give you as much air control as bunny hopping. This is certainly a concern in a game like NS with its cramped spaces and twisting corridors. However, after having perhaps a few beers to many, I got the crazy thought that this might be an excellent fit together with wall jumping. I.e. strafe jumping to accelerate, wall jumping to take corners. Possibly retaining the same kind of air control but without the acceleration while only holding forward.
As an experiment I started working on a mod which replaces fall acceleration with strafe jumping. So far it's working fine, other than there being way too much interaction with the floor, even with jump queueing, which throws you off course. This will probably require some reorganizing of the player physics code to fix, and I still need to tweak the air acceleration and air friction values to something more sensible.
I'm not sure if anyone is at all interested in this, but I'll keep you informed and eventually upload it to the Workshop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> honestly it's not such a bad idea especially when you think about how Warsow combined both mechanics. Warsow *did* free up aircontrol, but I'd like to see what you have in mind as well. definitely keep us posted.
<!--quoteo(post=2036551:date=Nov 28 2012, 11:11 AM:name=Ohnojojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ohnojojo @ Nov 28 2012, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping in a nuthshell... Does it require skill? Yes But Is it an exploit? Yes Did it ruin or alter the original and intended gameplay? Yes Does it make the game look ridiculous and stupid? Yes
It requires a lot of skill and is fun to be a yoyomaster. Yeah... but its a pretty useless skill and you'd look retarded trying to pick up girls with it. That's how I feel about bunnyhopping.
edit for grammar<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Something that has been said many times before in this thread, bunnyhopping in ns1 was not an exploit. The devs actually supported it and even made it more effective. When that happened it became part of the game, it actually ended up enhancing the gameplay. Please don't say things and random if you don't have the facts.
The "it's not an exploit if directly implemented by the developers" argument pales in comparison to the fact that it simply makes the game worse. See what I did here? I think I have seen countless posts like "I still have not seen an argument agains bhop" while I still did not see an argument for bhop neither. Take wulfs attempt to make an argument. He based it around a "fact": <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bunnyhop/strafe jump/etc were the best ways to bridge the gap between the limitation of what our keyboards/mice can enter and complex physical reality of shifting weight/twisting/momentum etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Next post i debunk his "fact" and he starts stating other arbitrary things as facts. Either side has been stating countless arbitrary things and oppinons as facts. This is not how you argue and it makes this discussion pointless.
I try to summarize this thread so far: 1. Some people want bunnyhop back, some don't. 2. New players find bunnyhop to be a strange mechanic, hard to grasp. It is not a natural way to move. 3. The devs intentionally activated bunnyhop in ns1. It was not an exploit, at least in ns. 4. Bunnyhop needed scripts or a mousewheel jump bind to work. If you were to dumb it down by holding jump to work, you would have your low skill ceiling again. 5. Walljumping right now is not optimal, it could be supplemented by some features of other movement mechanics.
Can someone count up all the people who have posted hating bunnyhopping in this thread who posted without actually reading the thread.
At least try a little to cover up the disgusting bitterness with which you post, guys!
I'll say it one more time for those of you still in ignorant denial - bunnyhopping. in. ns1. was. implemented. and. buffed. by. the. developers. it. is. more. effective. than. it. was. in. half-life.
None of you are in a position to say whether it 'ruined' the intended gameplay, and the game ended up being balanced around it. Without bunnyhopping marines would basically have won every game. The game would also have died much earlier.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can someone count up all the people who have posted hating bunnyhopping in this thread who posted without actually reading the thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you are referring to me, Toothy you are number 1. Read point 3 in my post above. If you were not, you should know that if not stated otherwise, everyone expects you to refer to the post right above you.
<!--quoteo(post=2036504:date=Nov 28 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 28 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you give an example what makes for example Q3 a "much more interesting system"? The plasma and rocket jumping add some possibilities, but the basic structure is very similar to HL engine. I can see Q3 being better suited for some things, but worse for others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watch this: <a href="http://www.quakeunity.com/file=2084" target="_blank">http://www.quakeunity.com/file=2084</a> (stream) 1:43-5:40 for the movement tutorial bit. The TDM frags following are optional.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2036624:date=Nov 28 2012, 06:59 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 28 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The "it's not an exploit if directly implemented by the developers" argument pales in comparison to the fact that it simply makes the game worse. See what I did here? I think I have seen countless posts like "I still have not seen an argument agains bhop" while I still did not see an argument for bhop neither.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a>
Can you please stop spamming your ignorance now? Thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=2036554:date=Nov 28 2012, 05:15 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 28 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nothing suggested since that post does anything to address point e. In addition, air control for a lifeform without wings or really any discernible aerodynamic features on its model makes no sense at all, unless it's built in as an obvious and specific ability (like all 3 of the fade's movement abilities and of course, the lerk).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You realize that NS2 currently has a lot more air control than NS1 ever had, right? That's why walljumping in NS2 is so easy to perform, and so ridiculously effective in combat.
From your link: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is this: Bunnyhopping is FUN! Bunnyhopping… 1. Rewards time spent practicing, giving an incentive to keep playing.
2. Gives a great feeling of mastery.
3. Encourages creativity.
4. Opens up new possibilities in combat.
5. Makes it possible to create ace players on the melee side of combat.
6. Can even create a game within the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> These points stand true for each and every movement mechanic and/or are personal oppinion and not arguments. Compared to bunnyhopping, i think there is much more potential in walljumping when it comes to unpredictability. As stated in that linked article, the good marines become accustomed to the bhop movement and simply unpredictably moving left-right becomes more effective. With walljump, you could add moving up/down to that - yes even more possibilities to improve your play! More options means outsmarting the enemy becomes as important as practising some mechanic over and over. Again even in that link, not a single argument why we specifically need bunnyhopping as in why it is irreplaceable.
And in case you missed it, i was only using _comps words in that quote to display his ignorance. Good job swiftboating me.
<!--quoteo(post=2036675:date=Nov 28 2012, 12:10 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 28 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These points stand true for each and every movement mechanic and/or are personal oppinion and not arguments. Compared to bunnyhopping, i think there is much more potential in walljumping when it comes to unpredictability. It comes to a point where outsmarting the enemy is as important as practising some mechanic over and over. Again even in that link, not a single argument why we specifically need bunnyhopping as in why it is irreplaceable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know why people bother posting if they blatantly ignore entire paragraphs.
<!--quoteo(post=2036547:date=Nov 28 2012, 11:03 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 28 2012, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, but it would be very easy to make bhop discernible. If you implement it like in NS2c all you need to do to start gain speed is to press W, strafe and move your mouse in the direction of your strafing while in the air. This will happen by chance for any player within few hours of play. All you need to do is add some feedback mechanism that tells you that you did something special there. It can be sound or visual feedback (e.g. something subtle like the air sound of the lerk), it can also be mouse feedback like in warsow. The player will go "woo what's that? let me try again!". The feedback can be made optional if it's too annoying once you learned the mechanic.
The current wall jump/fall jump is not discernible, as the only feedback you get is a modest speed boost, something new players are not really paying attention to. The old wall jump was much better in this regard, with the different skulk sounds when the timing was good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That makes it easier to explain how to do bunnyhopping, but it doesn't fundamentally make the fact that you're just magically gaining speed from doing a weird thing in mid air. It's not so much putting that mechanic in the game in some form that bothers me, it's relying on it as an entry point to mastering the game that bothers me, and in that form it's still very difficult to understand. The primary movement mechanics all players rely on should not be air control based for speed gain. Speed gain should come from interactions with surfaces. Air control should be that thing that glues it together so you can bite marines with all the extra speed you got.
<!--quoteo(post=2036675:date=Nov 28 2012, 03:10 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 28 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From your link:
These points stand true for each and every movement mechanic and/or are personal oppinion and not arguments. Compared to bunnyhopping, i think there is much more potential in walljumping when it comes to unpredictability. As stated in that linked article, the good marines become accustomed to the bhop movement and simply unpredictably moving left-right becomes more effective. With walljump, you could add moving up/down to that - yes even more possibilities to improve your play! More options means outsmarting the enemy becomes as important as practising some mechanic over and over. Again even in that link, not a single argument why we specifically need bunnyhopping as in why it is irreplaceable.
And in case you missed it, i was only using _comps words in that quote to display his ignorance. Good job swiftboating me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wall jumping isn't even close to at the same level yet. I agree there's a lot of potential there however. Marines also need some sort of system to address their situation. The "Hold 'w' and 'shift'" thing is very boring.
the points you quoted do not apply to walljumping, I will attempt to explain why.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is this: Bunnyhopping is FUN! Bunnyhopping… 1. Rewards time spent practicing, giving an incentive to keep playing.
2. Gives a great feeling of mastery.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> walljumping is easily mastered by any skilled player within an hour. the fantastic thing about airstrafe is that it can almost <i>never</i> be mastered, but it always gives you something to work toward. you can always get better at circlejumping with immediate feedback as you get closer and closer to the "sweet spot", but you can't perfectly execute a circlejump every single time. this creates goals and something to work toward <i>constantly</i>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Encourages creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> your routes are determined entirely by mappers, and routes are essentially nonexistent since B230 anyway. the most exciting thing you can do is chain 2-4 jumps (when previously you could chain 6-7) before falling flat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Opens up new possibilities in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> walljumping is effectively used in combat, so this point does apply. however, with everyone walljumping the <i>exact same way</i>, there is nothing to differentiate a skilled walljumper from an average one, which I believe to be detrimental to gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5. Makes it possible to create ace players on the melee side of combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> again, the "aces" perform walljumps the exact same way that an average skilled person does. it comes down to decisionmaking which is rather bland.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. Can even create a game within the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> walljumping was <i>almost</i> at a level where this was possible, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mESp4qSEUd8" target="_blank">1</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUyCARb46YE" target="_blank">2</a>. but again. because there is nothing to master, there is no game within a game. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KVsSAw01Uk" target="_blank">this</a> will never happen with walljumping.
Comments
bhop isn't realistic. much of the current movement mechanics isn't realistic, everyone knows this. what we do have however is an inhuman class of characters who rely on their movement abilities more than the regular human based fps. give them something way to move beyond the basic, and have it be a skill set (like aim for a marine) which can never be truly perfected.
bhop wont be the most realistic way to achieve this goal but it has been the best thus far at doing so,
Lots of people say it looks ridiculous. It is not logical to be faster while moving zig zag compared to running straight.
Walljump simply fits the skulk much better than bunnyhopping. Plus it pushes skulks towards attacking in narrow corridors instead of open areas. Sure it can be improved, maybe they the devs are even working on it or have some plans.
The mechanic of keeping momentum the first time you hit the ground looks like an interesting idea for example. Why not look into it, maybe make a mod and try it out instead of whining on the forums (i know, forum game is fun)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the more reasonable argument some people have brought up here. Depth is always a good thing, but specifically wanting the return of "bunny hopping", a mechanic from a 10+ year old engine, is not really progress or creative. This is a thread with no real discussion, ie: We want a fun, deep, intuitive movement system, but that is completely up to the developers. Anything else is just empty talkl
bhop isn't realistic. much of the current movement mechanics isn't realistic, everyone knows this. what we do have however is an inhuman class of characters who rely on their movement abilities more than the regular human based fps. give them something way to move beyond the basic, and have it be a skill set (like aim for a marine) which can never be truly perfected.
bhop wont be the most realistic way to achieve this goal but it has been the best thus far at doing so,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make it so you can ski like tribes. And fly airplanes and tanks. Then we can all do cartwheels down Mineshaft to avoid the skulks.
When someone else comes up with a alternative to bunnyhopping that is as good as it is, please share it with us!
PLEASE STOP making this CRETINOUS assumption that people who don't like bhop can't do it. It's simply not true, as I've pointed out at least twice in this thread already. It is NOT an argument that holds any water! Stop it!
<!--quoteo(post=2036410:date=Nov 28 2012, 05:36 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Nov 28 2012, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bhop wont be the most realistic way to achieve this goal but it has been the best thus far at doing so,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BHopping in older games, aside from being primarily a bug which many people liked (myself included at the time!), wasn't the best way to implement a skill-based movement system: it was the easiest and, pragmatically, the <i>only practical way</i> to do it. That doesn't mean it was the best way, and what UWE are trying with the wall-jumping is a good way to at least TRY to discover a system which fulfils the following criteria, which I hope everyone agrees are all worthwhile goals:
a) rewards player skill
b) improves game depth
c) doesn't alienate (forgive the pun) newbies
d) doesn't make the game look completely ridiculous (less important, need to sort out animations first!)
e) doesn't seem like cheating to the uninitiated (NB this is important!)
<b>As yet, wall-jumping doesn't achieve any of those perfectly</b> (except perhaps e), for different reasons, but that alone is NOT a reason to go back to implementing an engine glitch because those of us old enough to remember bombing around maps at 100mph have some warm and fuzzy nostalgia trip. Instead, we should be trying to help UWE out with ideas and suggestions that better achieve goals a-c and e, above (and goal d if possible). Bunny hopping achieves a and b, but fails horribly at c, d and e.
The fade's movement is actually a great example of a skill-based movement system that rewards practice, has a high skill-ceiling and doesn't alienate players: all of the things you need to move fast are advertised, <i>bona fide</i> abilities: shadowstep, double jump, blink: there's no mysterious magic behind it to the new player ("no no no, doesn't wiggle like that, wiggle like <i>this</i>..."), but it's extremely powerful in the right hands, and it doesn't seem like cheating to the uninitiated (blue trail helps here).
If the fade and lerk can have their own movement systems that go a long way to sating the desire that the vast majority of us share - a skill-based movement system that rewards good play - why shouldn't the skulk get something comparable? Surely this would be a far better focus of all our energies rather than to-ing and fro-ing about bunnyhopping!!
I have yet to see a coherent argument for going back to bunnyhopping that seems reasonable or sensible, and will people PLEASE stop thinking that those of us against bhopping can't do it and are jealous, because that's - at least in my case - simply not true and only undermines anything else you say.
Roo
bhop isn't realistic. much of the current movement mechanics isn't realistic, everyone knows this. what we do have however is an inhuman class of characters who rely on their movement abilities more than the regular human based fps. give them something way to move beyond the basic, and have it be a skill set (like aim for a marine) which can never be truly perfected.
bhop wont be the most realistic way to achieve this goal but it has been the best thus far at doing so,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about realism, it's about accessibility. It's one thing to give players difficult to master movement techniques that make sense and aren't that bad to start doing to begin with, it's another thing entirely to just put completely random crap into your game to make it "hard". Competitive players mistake ease of use for skill ceiling mechanics. People understand that someone who trains the game all day long for hours are going to be better than them, people don't understand when someone can fly at twice the speed they can move for no discernible reason.
Bhopping is NOT discernible. Doing it requires an understanding of a physics system that isn't well documented anywhere, and is completely contrary to the logical methods of locomotion within the game. If you tell someone "hey look, you get a speed boost when you bounce off the walls, so you want to combo bounces to get the most speed you can" that makes sense. If you tell someone "well, you have to not press forward, and you need to exploit an error in the player physics calculations that allow for acceleration by curving the strafe input with the mouse movement via air control" it sounds like french, it's not a comprehensible system. To become a bhopper you climb a 50 foot cliff face simply to start gaining speed in the first place, and then you basically hit a plateau, where you just do it naturally, and the hardest thing are micro improvements. It wasn't really even a very good skill based movement system, it was just what we were used to, and what was fun for us at that time, the patterns were predictable and in many cases restrictive. We worried about 1 unit edges in the floor for god's sake. These days though, it's old and ugly compared to what else is out there in the world, let alone what we could potentially come up with by learning from what other games have done to address the issue and expanding upon that.
Fundamentally, the claim that it "has been the best thus far" is so dumb. The best for what? Other games had MUCH better skill based movement than NS ever did, even with it's bhopping. Quake 3 and Warsaw are both much more interesting skill based movement systems. The Specialists had some AMAZING systems in place (although granted they were equally as incomprehensible as NS's bhoppping). CS 1.6 with all the extra restrictions put in place to "cap" the max speed of bunnyhopping actually made an ASTONISHINGLY beautiful skill based movement system that has been exploited and mastered to literally awe inspiring levels by KZ jumpers. Source mods allowed for some extremely cool things. Source forts and TF2 broke ground into some utterly nuts tricks when it came to rocket and explosive jumping. There are many more sources of inspiration to draw from as well. A skill based movement system can be designed, there's no requirement to use something old just because making a new skill based system is 'hard'.
Bunnyhopping was nice for it's time, but it's old, and it was broken in a lot of ways, it's time to move on to greener pastures.
Could you give an example what makes for example Q3 a "much more interesting system"? The plasma and rocket jumping add some possibilities, but the basic structure is very similar to HL engine. I can see Q3 being better suited for some things, but worse for others.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g24fe4bwu0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g24fe4bwu0</a>
It's similar, but it has a very different feel to GoldSource air control. Executing the required movements has a feel of launching yourself off of your back leg, as opposed to simply utilizing a completely arbitrary in game physics system. The majority of the speed is gained through the interactions with the ground, rather than the interactions with the air acceleration, which just has a much more natural feeling.
[edit] it's most interesting because you have the same effect as GldSrc bhopping, in that you gain signification speed through a system of jumping and air control, but it's not based on an arbitrary physics system error, and it's much more easy to explain to a new player, and it still feels equally fun and satisfying once mastered.
It's similar, but it has a very different feel to GoldSource air control. Executing the required movements has a feel of launching yourself off of your back leg, as opposed to simply utilizing a completely arbitrary in game physics system. The majority of the speed is gained through the interactions with the ground, rather than the interactions with the air acceleration, which just has a much more natural feeling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do agree it has a different feel, but nothing you point out makes it considerably more interesting or anything. I can do both, I prefer bhop's feel. You apparently prefer strafejumping, which probably is more intuitive in a certain way. However, it's in no way more considerably more interesting or clearly superior movement system, it just has a bit different logic and feel in it.
<!--quoteo(post=2036507:date=Nov 28 2012, 02:43 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 28 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[edit] it's most interesting because you have the same effect as GldSrc bhopping, in that you gain signification speed through a system of jumping and air control, but it's not based on an arbitrary physics system error, and it's much more easy to explain to a new player, and it still feels equally fun and satisfying once mastered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we are talking about purely intuitiviness, I'll go for Q3 system any given day. If we are talking about being interesting, I'll go for bhop - especially in a melee based environment of NS alien play. There's a world of difference between those two characterstics. The marine sprint is intuitive, but it doesn't make it one bit interesting or deep.
In practice though I think the problem most people have with strafe jumping is that it doesn't give you as much air control as bunny hopping. This is certainly a concern in a game like NS with its cramped spaces and twisting corridors. However, after having perhaps a few beers to many, I got the crazy thought that this might be an excellent fit together with wall jumping. I.e. strafe jumping to accelerate, wall jumping to take corners. Possibly retaining the same kind of air control but without the acceleration while only holding forward.
As an experiment I started working on a mod which replaces fall acceleration with strafe jumping. So far it's working fine, other than there being way too much interaction with the floor, even with jump queueing, which throws you off course. This will probably require some reorganizing of the player physics code to fix, and I still need to tweak the air acceleration and air friction values to something more sensible.
I'm not sure if anyone is at all interested in this, but I'll keep you informed and eventually upload it to the Workshop.
True, but it would be very easy to make bhop discernible. If you implement it like in NS2c all you need to do to start gain speed is to press W, strafe and move your mouse in the direction of your strafing while in the air. This will happen by chance for any player within few hours of play. All you need to do is add some feedback mechanism that tells you that you did something special there. It can be sound or visual feedback (e.g. something subtle like the air sound of the lerk), it can also be mouse feedback like in warsow. The player will go "woo what's that? let me try again!". The feedback can be made optional if it's too annoying once you learned the mechanic.
The current wall jump/fall jump is not discernible, as the only feedback you get is a modest speed boost, something new players are not really paying attention to.
The old wall jump was much better in this regard, with the different skulk sounds when the timing was good.
Guess I need to try the latest version of NS2c. Is this strafe jumping or does it just ignore the forward key?
Does it require skill? Yes
But
Is it an exploit? Yes
Did it ruin or alter the original and intended gameplay? Yes
Does it make the game look ridiculous and stupid? Yes
It requires a lot of skill and is fun to be a yoyomaster. Yeah... but its a pretty useless skill and you'd look retarded trying to pick up girls with it.
That's how I feel about bunnyhopping.
edit for grammar
See my post on the previous page:
<!--QuoteBegin-me+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (me)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what UWE are trying with the wall-jumping is a good way to at least TRY to discover a system which fulfils the following criteria, which I hope everyone agrees are all worthwhile goals:
a) rewards player skill
b) improves game depth
c) doesn't alienate (forgive the pun) newbies
d) doesn't make the game look completely ridiculous (less important, need to sort out animations first!)
e) doesn't seem like cheating to the uninitiated (NB this is important!)
...<snip><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing suggested since that post does anything to address point e. In addition, air control for a lifeform without wings or really any discernible aerodynamic features on its model makes no sense at all, unless it's built in as an obvious and specific ability (like all 3 of the fade's movement abilities and of course, the lerk).
Coming up with another way to model bunnyhopping isn't productive!
Roo
Welcome to NS2.
Does it require skill? Yes
But
Is it an exploit? Yes
Did it ruin or alter the original and intended gameplay? Yes
Does it make the game look ridiculous and stupid? Yes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not an exploit if directly implemented by the developers (as warsow for instance).
And the "ridiculous and stupid" argument pales in comparison to the fact that it simply makes the game <b>better</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=2036540:date=Nov 28 2012, 07:48 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Nov 28 2012, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In theory I'd say strafe jumping is deeper than bunny hopping because the optimal angle of acceleration varies with your speed, whereas with bunny hopping it's always 90 degrees from your current heading. There are various modes of strafe jumping (half beat, inverted etc.) and hitting the right angle when switching side requires a lot of practice, while with bunny hopping the most complex thing you can do is alternating left and right while rocking the mouse back and forth.
In practice though I think the problem most people have with strafe jumping is that it doesn't give you as much air control as bunny hopping. This is certainly a concern in a game like NS with its cramped spaces and twisting corridors. However, after having perhaps a few beers to many, I got the crazy thought that this might be an excellent fit together with wall jumping. I.e. strafe jumping to accelerate, wall jumping to take corners. Possibly retaining the same kind of air control but without the acceleration while only holding forward.
As an experiment I started working on a mod which replaces fall acceleration with strafe jumping. So far it's working fine, other than there being way too much interaction with the floor, even with jump queueing, which throws you off course. This will probably require some reorganizing of the player physics code to fix, and I still need to tweak the air acceleration and air friction values to something more sensible.
I'm not sure if anyone is at all interested in this, but I'll keep you informed and eventually upload it to the Workshop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
honestly it's not such a bad idea especially when you think about how Warsow combined both mechanics. Warsow *did* free up aircontrol, but I'd like to see what you have in mind as well. definitely keep us posted.
Does it require skill? Yes
But
Is it an exploit? Yes
Did it ruin or alter the original and intended gameplay? Yes
Does it make the game look ridiculous and stupid? Yes
It requires a lot of skill and is fun to be a yoyomaster. Yeah... but its a pretty useless skill and you'd look retarded trying to pick up girls with it.
That's how I feel about bunnyhopping.
edit for grammar<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something that has been said many times before in this thread, bunnyhopping in ns1 was not an exploit. The devs actually supported it and even made it more effective. When that happened it became part of the game, it actually ended up enhancing the gameplay. Please don't say things and random if you don't have the facts.
See what I did here? I think I have seen countless posts like "I still have not seen an argument agains bhop" while I still did not see an argument for bhop neither.
Take wulfs attempt to make an argument. He based it around a "fact":
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bunnyhop/strafe jump/etc were the best ways to bridge the gap between the limitation of what our keyboards/mice can enter and complex physical reality of shifting weight/twisting/momentum etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next post i debunk his "fact" and he starts stating other arbitrary things as facts. Either side has been stating countless arbitrary things and oppinons as facts. This is not how you argue and it makes this discussion pointless.
I try to summarize this thread so far:
1. Some people want bunnyhop back, some don't.
2. New players find bunnyhop to be a strange mechanic, hard to grasp. It is not a natural way to move.
3. The devs intentionally activated bunnyhop in ns1. It was not an exploit, at least in ns.
4. Bunnyhop needed scripts or a mousewheel jump bind to work. If you were to dumb it down by holding jump to work, you would have your low skill ceiling again.
5. Walljumping right now is not optimal, it could be supplemented by some features of other movement mechanics.
Did I forget something?
At least try a little to cover up the disgusting bitterness with which you post, guys!
I'll say it one more time for those of you still in ignorant denial - bunnyhopping. in. ns1. was. implemented. and. buffed. by. the. developers. it. is. more. effective. than. it. was. in. half-life.
None of you are in a position to say whether it 'ruined' the intended gameplay, and the game ended up being balanced around it. Without bunnyhopping marines would basically have won every game. The game would also have died much earlier.
If you are referring to me, Toothy you are number 1. Read point 3 in my post above. If you were not, you should know that if not stated otherwise, everyone expects you to refer to the post right above you.
Why so insecure?
If you have read the thread, then you yourself know that I was not referring to you.
Watch this: <a href="http://www.quakeunity.com/file=2084" target="_blank">http://www.quakeunity.com/file=2084</a> (stream) 1:43-5:40 for the movement tutorial bit. The TDM frags following are optional.
See what I did here? I think I have seen countless posts like "I still have not seen an argument agains bhop" while I still did not see an argument for bhop neither.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a>
Can you please stop spamming your ignorance now? Thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=2036554:date=Nov 28 2012, 05:15 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 28 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nothing suggested since that post does anything to address point e. In addition, air control for a lifeform without wings or really any discernible aerodynamic features on its model makes no sense at all, unless it's built in as an obvious and specific ability (like all 3 of the fade's movement abilities and of course, the lerk).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize that NS2 currently has a lot more air control than NS1 ever had, right? That's why walljumping in NS2 is so easy to perform, and so ridiculously effective in combat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is this: Bunnyhopping is FUN!
Bunnyhopping…
1. Rewards time spent practicing, giving an incentive to keep playing.
2. Gives a great feeling of mastery.
3. Encourages creativity.
4. Opens up new possibilities in combat.
5. Makes it possible to create ace players on the melee side of combat.
6. Can even create a game within the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These points stand true for each and every movement mechanic and/or are personal oppinion and not arguments. Compared to bunnyhopping, i think there is much more potential in walljumping when it comes to unpredictability. As stated in that linked article, the good marines become accustomed to the bhop movement and simply unpredictably moving left-right becomes more effective. With walljump, you could add moving up/down to that - yes even more possibilities to improve your play! More options means outsmarting the enemy becomes as important as practising some mechanic over and over.
Again even in that link, not a single argument why we specifically need bunnyhopping as in why it is irreplaceable.
And in case you missed it, i was only using _comps words in that quote to display his ignorance. Good job swiftboating me.
Again even in that link, not a single argument why we specifically need bunnyhopping as in why it is irreplaceable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know why people bother posting if they blatantly ignore entire paragraphs.
The current wall jump/fall jump is not discernible, as the only feedback you get is a modest speed boost, something new players are not really paying attention to.
The old wall jump was much better in this regard, with the different skulk sounds when the timing was good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes it easier to explain how to do bunnyhopping, but it doesn't fundamentally make the fact that you're just magically gaining speed from doing a weird thing in mid air. It's not so much putting that mechanic in the game in some form that bothers me, it's relying on it as an entry point to mastering the game that bothers me, and in that form it's still very difficult to understand. The primary movement mechanics all players rely on should not be air control based for speed gain. Speed gain should come from interactions with surfaces. Air control should be that thing that glues it together so you can bite marines with all the extra speed you got.
These points stand true for each and every movement mechanic and/or are personal oppinion and not arguments. Compared to bunnyhopping, i think there is much more potential in walljumping when it comes to unpredictability. As stated in that linked article, the good marines become accustomed to the bhop movement and simply unpredictably moving left-right becomes more effective. With walljump, you could add moving up/down to that - yes even more possibilities to improve your play! More options means outsmarting the enemy becomes as important as practising some mechanic over and over.
Again even in that link, not a single argument why we specifically need bunnyhopping as in why it is irreplaceable.
And in case you missed it, i was only using _comps words in that quote to display his ignorance. Good job swiftboating me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wall jumping isn't even close to at the same level yet. I agree there's a lot of potential there however. Marines also need some sort of system to address their situation. The "Hold 'w' and 'shift'" thing is very boring.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is this: Bunnyhopping is FUN!
Bunnyhopping…
1. Rewards time spent practicing, giving an incentive to keep playing.
2. Gives a great feeling of mastery.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
walljumping is easily mastered by any skilled player within an hour. the fantastic thing about airstrafe is that it can almost <i>never</i> be mastered, but it always gives you something to work toward. you can always get better at circlejumping with immediate feedback as you get closer and closer to the "sweet spot", but you can't perfectly execute a circlejump every single time. this creates goals and something to work toward <i>constantly</i>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Encourages creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your routes are determined entirely by mappers, and routes are essentially nonexistent since B230 anyway. the most exciting thing you can do is chain 2-4 jumps (when previously you could chain 6-7) before falling flat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Opens up new possibilities in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
walljumping is effectively used in combat, so this point does apply. however, with everyone walljumping the <i>exact same way</i>, there is nothing to differentiate a skilled walljumper from an average one, which I believe to be detrimental to gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5. Makes it possible to create ace players on the melee side of combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
again, the "aces" perform walljumps the exact same way that an average skilled person does. it comes down to decisionmaking which is rather bland.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. Can even create a game within the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
walljumping was <i>almost</i> at a level where this was possible, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mESp4qSEUd8" target="_blank">1</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUyCARb46YE" target="_blank">2</a>. but again. because there is nothing to master, there is no game within a game. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KVsSAw01Uk" target="_blank">this</a> will never happen with walljumping.