Remember this? Onos runs in room and eats you with your HA then runs away laughing while you sit in his stomach. Although it was cool when you were being digested inside the onos and your teammates take him down and save you!
<!--quoteo(post=2036628:date=Nov 28 2012, 02:08 PM:name=sumguy720)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sumguy720 @ Nov 28 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason UWE took out devour is vaguely clear to me. They didn't want people to get taken out of the game. That's cool! I agree. Good idea. Getting devoured was sort of cool in some respect but I know it can be frustrating to be out of combat for such a long time.
Stomp is still a really frustrating move though. It doesn't detain you for as long, but stomp happens WAY more frequently than devour could have, and it affects many more players at once. I think the total loss-of-control and helplessness factor ends up being about the same.
When I play Onos I actually don't use stomp much because I feel cheap for immobilizing the enemy. I feel like I exorcised the player from their avatar with stomp and then just harvested the points from this lifeless body on the floor. At least when they're running away and shooting I feel like I'm actually doing something.
I don't understand all the intricacies of balance in this game but I do know that for me stomp is not fun, no matter which team I'm on.
Can we think of something to replace it? Do you all think it needs to be revisited?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah this is a really good point.
I would definitely be in favor of exploring other options which don't disable players (and therefore reduce the overall fun of the game,) but achieve the same goal. Seems like you'd want something centered around letting the Onos work more as a team tank, so something like ONE of the following:
<b>1. Steelskin</b>. Right-clicking gradually drains stamina and reduces incoming damage by 50%. Stamina drain can last maybe 5 seconds or so.
<b>2. Enrage. </b>Right-clicking activates a 5-second buff during which incoming damage causes the Onos to move faster and take less damage (damage reduction stacks).
I'm sure with a little more thought you could come up with an even better suggestion which adds to the play depth of Onos, as these sound a little shallow at first glance (admittedly even stomp is <i>mostly </i>shallow, given it turns off marines who are struck by it.)
<!--quoteo(post=2039549:date=Dec 3 2012, 07:53 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 3 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah this is a really good point.
I would definitely be in favor of exploring other options which don't disable players (and therefore reduce the overall fun of the game,) but achieve the same goal. Seems like you'd want something centered around letting the Onos work more as a team tank, so something like ONE of the following:
<b>1. Steelskin</b>. Right-clicking gradually drains stamina and reduces incoming damage by 50%. Stamina drain can last maybe 5 seconds or so.
<b>2. Enrage. </b>Right-clicking activates a 5-second buff during which incoming damage causes the Onos to move faster and take less damage (damage reduction stacks).
I'm sure with a little more thought you could come up with an even better suggestion which adds to the play depth of Onos, as these sound a little shallow at first glance (admittedly even stomp is <i>mostly </i>shallow, given it turns off marines who are struck by it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I had an idea where the onos can slam the ground, and the vibrations it causes stuns marines in the near by area. This is the perfect hive 3 ability because it doesn't make the onos too much more powerful if the marines are spread out, like they tend to be when they attack a hive or push a new area, but it makes the onos much more powerful when the marines are bunched up with weak guns, like they are when they turtle in the late game and prolong the game when they don't have a chance left. Basically, it's a great idea because it perfectly adresses the bad situation we have right now in NS2 that makes the late game frustrating. We could call it "earthquake"!
Going to resurrect this from the grave and maybe, just maybe, we can have some constructive analysis of Stomp.
In my humble opinion Stomp is no fun in its current state. I believe this because it is common perceived that video game players do not like losing control of their character. Stuns have places in certain games (See: MOBAs) but a first person, TDM based, shooter is not one of them.
<!--quoteo(post=2036633:date=Nov 28 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 28 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...It's meant to end turtles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Turtling is a by-product of bad team play.
<!--quoteo(post=2036636:date=Nov 28 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 28 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's fine, Stomp is a hive 3 ability and is reasonably avoidable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deeming it reasonably avoidable and/or a hive 3 ability doesn't automatically make it acceptable.
<!--quoteo(post=2039420:date=Dec 3 2012, 04:23 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 3 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp is an ability that serves no function. This is based on the fact that by 3 hives marines have essentially lost the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a public setting this might not be the case, especially in 5 TP maps. Arguably the best time of the game is 2 TP vs 3TP battle. Stomp, Xeno, and Umbra are usually too much to deal with but one, or all, shouldn't automatically spell doom for the marines. Abilities are there as tools and should only be as good as the person using them. On the flip side they can only be so bad before no one uses them, See: Vortex.
With that said, what is Stomps goal? A crowd-control effect. Why not just give it a concussive like effect that mess up marines vision, slows their actions (aiming/moving), and/or makes their aim wonky. This is just one idea that is taken directly from those concussion grenades (TFC anyone?) commonly seen in similar games that both impairs but doesn't remove control of the player character and provides crowd control. Make at an AoE centered on the onos, call it Deafening Roar, and voila, stomp is fixed.
It's probably because Exos don't get stunned, and these things are extremely easy to dodge with jetpacks. I don't have a problem with either skill, but Vortex seems out of place. Bring Acid Rockets back.
Devour was a whole different ballgame from Stomp. It was literally an instakill button for anyone who gets caught within melee range of the Onos(which is easy since he also has Stomp), Heavies included, AND it drops all your valuable gear off where it can't be recovered.
Vortex is actually tactical, it takes a huge amount of energy from a fade who already direly needs it to escape (why is blink so retardedly energy intensive again?)
Sort of surprised noone has pointed out the best use for Stomp. As an Onos with Stomp, I'll often head into a Marine base and stand in the middle of it while my allies attack. The Comm beacons, and as soon as I see the particle effect start, I hit Stomp and stun all the incoming Marines, at which point we slaughter them and then smash the power.
Blink, vortex, and devour are all different topics entirely, but not necessarily less concerning.
UWE doesn't need reinvent the wheel. A little study of the MOBA games (smite, dota, lol, super MnC, bloodline champs) and or those top RTS games (sc2, dawn of ear, company of heroes, supcom) would definitely help and probably even result in some pilfering of a mechanic or two. Borrowing from success isn't a bad idea. The reverse is true as well, and that applies to the current incarnation of stomp.
<!--quoteo(post=2045027:date=Dec 13 2012, 12:43 PM:name=SoundFX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SoundFX @ Dec 13 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blink, vortex, and devour are all different topics entirely, but not necessarily less concerning.
UWE doesn't need reinvent the wheel. A little study of the MOBA games (smite, dota, lol, super MnC, bloodline champs) and or those top RTS games (sc2, dawn of ear, company of heroes, supcom) would definitely help and probably even result in some pilfering of a mechanic or two. Borrowing from success isn't a bad idea. The reverse is true as well, and that applies to the current incarnation of stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the record, you're talking about games in which stun effects all play an extremely vital role. You're arguing that UWE is "learning" from that? I'd agree with you, I don't think a player has a right to second by second control over their ingame avatar, however I'm not quite sure if that's what you're claiming from your post.
Devour wasn't removed because it "took control away from the player" or that it was frustrating, or boring, or whatever. It was removed because people tried to use every trick in the book to get around devour time. It never reached a point where it was universally accepted, it was always a mechanic that went directly against the grain of the fundamental design of multiplayer FPS games. First it was 'kill' in console, then it was F4, and finally it was 'reconnect' in console. All 3 of which had shorter durations than wating for devour time. I've never heard of someone F4ing because they were stomped, and even if they did, it would be much less of an issue because the onos doesn't heal at a faster rate when he's stomped you, aside from +1 kill count, he'd actually prefer not to have to waste energy goring you, so go right ahead.
Stomp right now has an energy cost that's absolutely way too low. An onos stomping once as they rampage into a base might be fine, but twice or three times is far too many.
Lots of the problem is that it's Crowd control, and that's a crappy mechanic in the first place. The rest of the problem is that the marine team has no reliable way to kill an Onos, or Two Onos with cara without focus firing one of them with 6+ players, and you can't focus fire an onos when you're on the ground due to stomp.
I would suggest replacing stomp entirely, it's a messy mechanic that's uneeded honestly. Give onos a primaly scream type ability (Lerk NS1) so that it can be a rallying tank unit for the aliens and maybe a devour option for low-health marines that would be killed in a single hit anyway, so the Onos can benefit from the health bonus for 20 seconds or so.
<!--quoteo(post=2045067:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:15 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 13 2012, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp right now has an energy cost that's absolutely way too low. An onos stomping once as they rampage into a base might be fine, but twice or three times is far too many.
Lots of the problem is that it's Crowd control, and that's a crappy mechanic in the first place. The rest of the problem is that the marine team has no reliable way to kill an Onos, or Two Onos with cara without focus firing one of them with 6+ players, and you can't focus fire an onos when you're on the ground due to stomp.
I would suggest replacing stomp entirely, it's a messy mechanic that's uneeded honestly. Give onos a primaly scream type ability (Lerk NS1) so that it can be a rallying tank unit for the aliens and maybe a devour option for low-health marines that would be killed in a single hit anyway, so the Onos can benefit from the health bonus for 20 seconds or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like Chogath's devour.
It think the BIG BIG BIG issue in NS2 is that the late game focuses on base turtles. That's sort of the whole point of Hive 3 abilities. They should be abilities for knocking out turtle bases, as opposed to general buffs. It's already very hard to win engagements with Hive 2 aliens, and onos start to increase in number at hive 3 as well, making the situation even worse almost everywhere on the map.
I really don't think hive 3 should mean that Marines no longer have a chance of winning the game... but it SHOULD mean that a marine team boxed into 1 base on 1 resnode can't last another 15 minutes. Hive 3 abilities need to punish marines for staying still, punish marines for giving aliens time to set up battle lines, punish marines for being too close to their base. Stomp does some of these ok, others not so well. It's preferable to a single target elimination attack however.
It think the BIG BIG BIG issue in NS2 is that the late game focuses on base turtles. That's sort of the whole point of Hive 3 abilities. They should be abilities for knocking out turtle bases, as opposed to general buffs. It's already very hard to win engagements with Hive 2 aliens, and onos start to increase in number at hive 3 as well, making the situation even worse almost everywhere on the map.
I really don't think hive 3 should mean that Marines no longer have a chance of winning the game... but it SHOULD mean that a marine team boxed into 1 base on 1 resnode can't last another 15 minutes. Hive 3 abilities need to punish marines for staying still, punish marines for giving aliens time to set up battle lines, punish marines for being too close to their base. Stomp does some of these ok, others not so well. It's preferable to a single target elimination attack however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can't win a 1-base turtle.
I know, i tried. That's how most my comm games end up when my team decides to lose things like important bases or such. Most likely a bit my fault too. Marine team ends up turtling way too much because they have no way of breaking a turtle, and aliens rarely work together so they never actually break turtles quickly either.
We turtled for a good 30 minutes, i slowly built infantry portals for each and every single one of my marines (and monogrammed them too!). We had something like 20+ Onos kills and the enemy commander was sending throngs upon throngs of hallucinated enemies at us. Just armies of hallucinated onos and gorges, it was glorious. We did pretty damn well and fended off the enemy alien team to the point in which we were demanding they surrender. Hell we even learned that Obs scan will detect and instantly destroy hallucinated aliens, nobody knew that on my team until we tried it.
Eventually they got us though, finally took down our exo who was acting as a mobile turret (he had panicked and run from his fellow comrades dying) and slowly whittled us down until a mass scale onos lerk and gorge rush including every player on the enemy team at the same time took us down.
I'm not sure it's a bad thing, everyone on our team was enjoying the hell out of themselves and i noted that if at any-time it was no longer fun i would recycle. Not sure about alien team.
I'm also not sure it's a problem that aliens can't break turtles, i think it's more of a problem that marines can't escape them. I honestly wouldnt mind longer games with marines given a fighting chance to escape a 1-chair situation. The same for aliens would be great too.
I wasn't speaking of the stuns prevelant in the Moba genre. In my first post I thought that was clear. I'm not opposed to control effects but being unable to defend yourself in a FPS game is, in my mind, unacceptable. Again, I like the idea of hindering the effects of self defense but helpless and slim chance are two different things.
Lets examine flash bangs: at first glance they seem to make you useless in an FPS yet with practice or luck you can fight through it. In no way shape or form can you fight through stomp. In some cases your teammates can't either.
Furthermore the idea that third hive abilities must be overpowered and/or game ending is beyond me. It might be more time effective to concede in a 4 tech point map but it technically is not over. Hence why you don't get "aliens win" when they grow three or even four hives. Five tech points just make things more interesting.
Rooting, slowing, blinding, loss of accuracy, confusion (reversed input controls), etc could all be looked at as alternatives to stomp.
The goal here is not to create a new stomp but to address the problem that I feel exists with it. Or at least discuss the possibility thereof.
I know, i tried. That's how most my comm games end up when my team decides to lose things like important bases or such. Most likely a bit my fault too. Marine team ends up turtling way too much because they have no way of breaking a turtle, and aliens rarely work together so they never actually break turtles quickly either.
We turtled for a good 30 minutes, i slowly built infantry portals for each and every single one of my marines (and monogrammed them too!). We had something like 20+ Onos kills and the enemy commander was sending throngs upon throngs of hallucinated enemies at us. Just armies of hallucinated onos and gorges, it was glorious. We did pretty damn well and fended off the enemy alien team to the point in which we were demanding they surrender. Hell we even learned that Obs scan will detect and instantly destroy hallucinated aliens, nobody knew that on my team until we tried it.
Eventually they got us though, finally took down our exo who was acting as a mobile turret (he had panicked and run from his fellow comrades dying) and slowly whittled us down until a mass scale onos lerk and gorge rush including every player on the enemy team at the same time took us down.
I'm not sure it's a bad thing, everyone on our team was enjoying the hell out of themselves and i noted that if at any-time it was no longer fun i would recycle. Not sure about alien team.
I'm also not sure it's a problem that aliens can't break turtles, i think it's more of a problem that marines can't escape them. I honestly wouldnt mind longer games with marines given a fighting chance to escape a 1-chair situation. The same for aliens would be great too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much fun as marines can have defying the odds for as long as they can, those aliens should have been able to utterly destroy you in minutes. That's what would happen if the alien team was in that position. Hive 3 abilities should definitely be specialized to base destruction and overwhelmingly powerful IMO. They require the aliens not only to get 3 hives built, but also to spend a fair amount of time and money researching those abilities. If the marines still haven't turned it around by that point, they deserve to lose and quickly.
I've thought that stomp should drop marines to their knees. They would still be able to shuffle away (at around 1/3 speed), but not fire. This would give them a small chance to survive, while still making them an easy target.
<!--quoteo(post=2039564:date=Dec 3 2012, 08:54 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 3 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039564"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had an idea where the onos can slam the ground, and the vibrations it causes stuns marines in the near by area. This is the perfect hive 3 ability because it doesn't make the onos too much more powerful if the marines are spread out, like they tend to be when they attack a hive or push a new area, but it makes the onos much more powerful when the marines are bunched up with weak guns, like they are when they turtle in the late game and prolong the game when they don't have a chance left. Basically, it's a great idea because it perfectly adresses the bad situation we have right now in NS2 that makes the late game frustrating. We could call it "earthquake"!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're suggesting replacing a stun with a stun, so I assume you're just being sarcastic?
The problem is PVP games aren't interesting when they revolve around players being completely disabled (stunned). A good PVP game is about battles with a certain duration where players are constantly making decisions and exhibiting skill throughout the battle. When a player is stunned, they're completely prevented from decision-making and skill, and combat becomes dramatically less interesting as a result: it's no longer that you could've zigged and zagged better as a skulk to avoid marine bullets, but that you are completely disabled the entire fight and then you die.
Certainly the situation isn't absolute in its terribleness. It's not like stomp completely prevents skill from mattering -- you can prepare ahead of time with a Jetpack or spread out or hide behind a wall to minimize the impact.
But Stomp is still a very dominant disabling ability and the game would be better off if Onos had a Tier 3 ability which <i>added</i> to the skill depth of the game rather than <i>reducing </i>it. Hence my suggestion of a directional Onos damage shield, which creates all sorts of directional skill to both the Onos user and Onos' opponent(s).
<!--quoteo(post=2045216:date=Dec 13 2012, 07:23 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 13 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're suggesting replacing a stun with a stun, so I assume you're just being sarcastic?
The problem is PVP games aren't interesting when they revolve around players being completely disabled (stunned). A good PVP game is about battles with a certain duration where players are constantly making decisions and exhibiting skill throughout the battle. When a player is stunned, they're completely prevented from decision-making and skill, and combat becomes dramatically less interesting as a result: it's no longer that you could've zigged and zagged better as a skulk to avoid marine bullets, but that you are completely disabled the entire fight and then you die.
Certainly the situation isn't absolute in its terribleness. It's not like stomp completely prevents skill from mattering -- you can prepare ahead of time with a Jetpack or spread out or hide behind a wall to minimize the impact.
But Stomp is still a very dominant disabling ability and the game would be better off if Onos had a Tier 3 ability which <i>added</i> to the skill depth of the game rather than <i>reducing </i>it. Hence my suggestion of a directional Onos damage shield, which creates all sorts of directional skill to both the Onos user and Onos' opponent(s).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like where your heads at. Similarly if the onos could create the commanders bone wall it would be a great both offensively and defensively.
Comments
Stomp is still a really frustrating move though. It doesn't detain you for as long, but stomp happens WAY more frequently than devour could have, and it affects many more players at once. I think the total loss-of-control and helplessness factor ends up being about the same.
When I play Onos I actually don't use stomp much because I feel cheap for immobilizing the enemy. I feel like I exorcised the player from their avatar with stomp and then just harvested the points from this lifeless body on the floor. At least when they're running away and shooting I feel like I'm actually doing something.
I don't understand all the intricacies of balance in this game but I do know that for me stomp is not fun, no matter which team I'm on.
Can we think of something to replace it? Do you all think it needs to be revisited?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah this is a really good point.
I would definitely be in favor of exploring other options which don't disable players (and therefore reduce the overall fun of the game,) but achieve the same goal. Seems like you'd want something centered around letting the Onos work more as a team tank, so something like ONE of the following:
<b>1. Steelskin</b>. Right-clicking gradually drains stamina and reduces incoming damage by 50%. Stamina drain can last maybe 5 seconds or so.
<b>2. Enrage. </b>Right-clicking activates a 5-second buff during which incoming damage causes the Onos to move faster and take less damage (damage reduction stacks).
I'm sure with a little more thought you could come up with an even better suggestion which adds to the play depth of Onos, as these sound a little shallow at first glance (admittedly even stomp is <i>mostly </i>shallow, given it turns off marines who are struck by it.)
But I like stomp the way it is.
They should add devour back in but just let Marines 'suicide' by holding down a button like how many revive systems work in other games.
The Marine gets to respawn before the devour is over but the Onos still gains the full impact of the Marine for HP regen/can't devour again time.
I would definitely be in favor of exploring other options which don't disable players (and therefore reduce the overall fun of the game,) but achieve the same goal. Seems like you'd want something centered around letting the Onos work more as a team tank, so something like ONE of the following:
<b>1. Steelskin</b>. Right-clicking gradually drains stamina and reduces incoming damage by 50%. Stamina drain can last maybe 5 seconds or so.
<b>2. Enrage. </b>Right-clicking activates a 5-second buff during which incoming damage causes the Onos to move faster and take less damage (damage reduction stacks).
I'm sure with a little more thought you could come up with an even better suggestion which adds to the play depth of Onos, as these sound a little shallow at first glance (admittedly even stomp is <i>mostly </i>shallow, given it turns off marines who are struck by it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had an idea where the onos can slam the ground, and the vibrations it causes stuns marines in the near by area. This is the perfect hive 3 ability because it doesn't make the onos too much more powerful if the marines are spread out, like they tend to be when they attack a hive or push a new area, but it makes the onos much more powerful when the marines are bunched up with weak guns, like they are when they turtle in the late game and prolong the game when they don't have a chance left. Basically, it's a great idea because it perfectly adresses the bad situation we have right now in NS2 that makes the late game frustrating. We could call it "earthquake"!
In my humble opinion Stomp is no fun in its current state. I believe this because it is common perceived that video game players do not like losing control of their character. Stuns have places in certain games (See: MOBAs) but a first person, TDM based, shooter is not one of them.
<!--quoteo(post=2036633:date=Nov 28 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 28 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...It's meant to end turtles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Turtling is a by-product of bad team play.
<!--quoteo(post=2036636:date=Nov 28 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 28 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's fine, Stomp is a hive 3 ability and is reasonably avoidable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deeming it reasonably avoidable and/or a hive 3 ability doesn't automatically make it acceptable.
<!--quoteo(post=2039420:date=Dec 3 2012, 04:23 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 3 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp is an ability that serves no function. This is based on the fact that by 3 hives marines have essentially lost the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a public setting this might not be the case, especially in 5 TP maps. Arguably the best time of the game is 2 TP vs 3TP battle. Stomp, Xeno, and Umbra are usually too much to deal with but one, or all, shouldn't automatically spell doom for the marines. Abilities are there as tools and should only be as good as the person using them. On the flip side they can only be so bad before no one uses them, See: Vortex.
With that said, what is Stomps goal? A crowd-control effect. Why not just give it a concussive like effect that mess up marines vision, slows their actions (aiming/moving), and/or makes their aim wonky. This is just one idea that is taken directly from those concussion grenades (TFC anyone?) commonly seen in similar games that both impairs but doesn't remove control of the player character and provides crowd control. Make at an AoE centered on the onos, call it Deafening Roar, and voila, stomp is fixed.
Anyway, Stomp is no fun so discuss more/again.
but we have stomp... and we also have vortex too. I don't get these mixed signals from the development of NS2
if we're talking about crowd control, why not a combo move of Smash and Charge that deals damage and pushes marines back?
Both unfair and awesome!
UWE doesn't need reinvent the wheel. A little study of the MOBA games (smite, dota, lol, super MnC, bloodline champs) and or those top RTS games (sc2, dawn of ear, company of heroes, supcom) would definitely help and probably even result in some pilfering of a mechanic or two. Borrowing from success isn't a bad idea. The reverse is true as well, and that applies to the current incarnation of stomp.
UWE doesn't need reinvent the wheel. A little study of the MOBA games (smite, dota, lol, super MnC, bloodline champs) and or those top RTS games (sc2, dawn of ear, company of heroes, supcom) would definitely help and probably even result in some pilfering of a mechanic or two. Borrowing from success isn't a bad idea. The reverse is true as well, and that applies to the current incarnation of stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the record, you're talking about games in which stun effects all play an extremely vital role. You're arguing that UWE is "learning" from that? I'd agree with you, I don't think a player has a right to second by second control over their ingame avatar, however I'm not quite sure if that's what you're claiming from your post.
Devour wasn't removed because it "took control away from the player" or that it was frustrating, or boring, or whatever. It was removed because people tried to use every trick in the book to get around devour time. It never reached a point where it was universally accepted, it was always a mechanic that went directly against the grain of the fundamental design of multiplayer FPS games. First it was 'kill' in console, then it was F4, and finally it was 'reconnect' in console. All 3 of which had shorter durations than wating for devour time. I've never heard of someone F4ing because they were stomped, and even if they did, it would be much less of an issue because the onos doesn't heal at a faster rate when he's stomped you, aside from +1 kill count, he'd actually prefer not to have to waste energy goring you, so go right ahead.
Lots of the problem is that it's Crowd control, and that's a crappy mechanic in the first place. The rest of the problem is that the marine team has no reliable way to kill an Onos, or Two Onos with cara without focus firing one of them with 6+ players, and you can't focus fire an onos when you're on the ground due to stomp.
I would suggest replacing stomp entirely, it's a messy mechanic that's uneeded honestly. Give onos a primaly scream type ability (Lerk NS1) so that it can be a rallying tank unit for the aliens and maybe a devour option for low-health marines that would be killed in a single hit anyway, so the Onos can benefit from the health bonus for 20 seconds or so.
Lots of the problem is that it's Crowd control, and that's a crappy mechanic in the first place. The rest of the problem is that the marine team has no reliable way to kill an Onos, or Two Onos with cara without focus firing one of them with 6+ players, and you can't focus fire an onos when you're on the ground due to stomp.
I would suggest replacing stomp entirely, it's a messy mechanic that's uneeded honestly. Give onos a primaly scream type ability (Lerk NS1) so that it can be a rallying tank unit for the aliens and maybe a devour option for low-health marines that would be killed in a single hit anyway, so the Onos can benefit from the health bonus for 20 seconds or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like Chogath's devour.
It think the BIG BIG BIG issue in NS2 is that the late game focuses on base turtles. That's sort of the whole point of Hive 3 abilities. They should be abilities for knocking out turtle bases, as opposed to general buffs. It's already very hard to win engagements with Hive 2 aliens, and onos start to increase in number at hive 3 as well, making the situation even worse almost everywhere on the map.
I really don't think hive 3 should mean that Marines no longer have a chance of winning the game... but it SHOULD mean that a marine team boxed into 1 base on 1 resnode can't last another 15 minutes. Hive 3 abilities need to punish marines for staying still, punish marines for giving aliens time to set up battle lines, punish marines for being too close to their base. Stomp does some of these ok, others not so well. It's preferable to a single target elimination attack however.
It think the BIG BIG BIG issue in NS2 is that the late game focuses on base turtles. That's sort of the whole point of Hive 3 abilities. They should be abilities for knocking out turtle bases, as opposed to general buffs. It's already very hard to win engagements with Hive 2 aliens, and onos start to increase in number at hive 3 as well, making the situation even worse almost everywhere on the map.
I really don't think hive 3 should mean that Marines no longer have a chance of winning the game... but it SHOULD mean that a marine team boxed into 1 base on 1 resnode can't last another 15 minutes. Hive 3 abilities need to punish marines for staying still, punish marines for giving aliens time to set up battle lines, punish marines for being too close to their base. Stomp does some of these ok, others not so well. It's preferable to a single target elimination attack however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can't win a 1-base turtle.
I know, i tried. That's how most my comm games end up when my team decides to lose things like important bases or such. Most likely a bit my fault too. Marine team ends up turtling way too much because they have no way of breaking a turtle, and aliens rarely work together so they never actually break turtles quickly either.
We turtled for a good 30 minutes, i slowly built infantry portals for each and every single one of my marines (and monogrammed them too!). We had something like 20+ Onos kills and the enemy commander was sending throngs upon throngs of hallucinated enemies at us. Just armies of hallucinated onos and gorges, it was glorious. We did pretty damn well and fended off the enemy alien team to the point in which we were demanding they surrender. Hell we even learned that Obs scan will detect and instantly destroy hallucinated aliens, nobody knew that on my team until we tried it.
Eventually they got us though, finally took down our exo who was acting as a mobile turret (he had panicked and run from his fellow comrades dying) and slowly whittled us down until a mass scale onos lerk and gorge rush including every player on the enemy team at the same time took us down.
I'm not sure it's a bad thing, everyone on our team was enjoying the hell out of themselves and i noted that if at any-time it was no longer fun i would recycle. Not sure about alien team.
I'm also not sure it's a problem that aliens can't break turtles, i think it's more of a problem that marines can't escape them. I honestly wouldnt mind longer games with marines given a fighting chance to escape a 1-chair situation. The same for aliens would be great too.
Lets examine flash bangs: at first glance they seem to make you useless in an FPS yet with practice or luck you can fight through it. In no way shape or form can you fight through stomp. In some cases your teammates can't either.
Furthermore the idea that third hive abilities must be overpowered and/or game ending is beyond me. It might be more time effective to concede in a 4 tech point map but it technically is not over. Hence why you don't get "aliens win" when they grow three or even four hives. Five tech points just make things more interesting.
Rooting, slowing, blinding, loss of accuracy, confusion (reversed input controls), etc could all be looked at as alternatives to stomp.
The goal here is not to create a new stomp but to address the problem that I feel exists with it. Or at least discuss the possibility thereof.
I know, i tried. That's how most my comm games end up when my team decides to lose things like important bases or such. Most likely a bit my fault too. Marine team ends up turtling way too much because they have no way of breaking a turtle, and aliens rarely work together so they never actually break turtles quickly either.
We turtled for a good 30 minutes, i slowly built infantry portals for each and every single one of my marines (and monogrammed them too!). We had something like 20+ Onos kills and the enemy commander was sending throngs upon throngs of hallucinated enemies at us. Just armies of hallucinated onos and gorges, it was glorious. We did pretty damn well and fended off the enemy alien team to the point in which we were demanding they surrender. Hell we even learned that Obs scan will detect and instantly destroy hallucinated aliens, nobody knew that on my team until we tried it.
Eventually they got us though, finally took down our exo who was acting as a mobile turret (he had panicked and run from his fellow comrades dying) and slowly whittled us down until a mass scale onos lerk and gorge rush including every player on the enemy team at the same time took us down.
I'm not sure it's a bad thing, everyone on our team was enjoying the hell out of themselves and i noted that if at any-time it was no longer fun i would recycle. Not sure about alien team.
I'm also not sure it's a problem that aliens can't break turtles, i think it's more of a problem that marines can't escape them. I honestly wouldnt mind longer games with marines given a fighting chance to escape a 1-chair situation. The same for aliens would be great too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much fun as marines can have defying the odds for as long as they can, those aliens should have been able to utterly destroy you in minutes. That's what would happen if the alien team was in that position. Hive 3 abilities should definitely be specialized to base destruction and overwhelmingly powerful IMO. They require the aliens not only to get 3 hives built, but also to spend a fair amount of time and money researching those abilities. If the marines still haven't turned it around by that point, they deserve to lose and quickly.
You're suggesting replacing a stun with a stun, so I assume you're just being sarcastic?
The problem is PVP games aren't interesting when they revolve around players being completely disabled (stunned). A good PVP game is about battles with a certain duration where players are constantly making decisions and exhibiting skill throughout the battle. When a player is stunned, they're completely prevented from decision-making and skill, and combat becomes dramatically less interesting as a result: it's no longer that you could've zigged and zagged better as a skulk to avoid marine bullets, but that you are completely disabled the entire fight and then you die.
Certainly the situation isn't absolute in its terribleness. It's not like stomp completely prevents skill from mattering -- you can prepare ahead of time with a Jetpack or spread out or hide behind a wall to minimize the impact.
But Stomp is still a very dominant disabling ability and the game would be better off if Onos had a Tier 3 ability which <i>added</i> to the skill depth of the game rather than <i>reducing </i>it. Hence my suggestion of a directional Onos damage shield, which creates all sorts of directional skill to both the Onos user and Onos' opponent(s).
The problem is PVP games aren't interesting when they revolve around players being completely disabled (stunned). A good PVP game is about battles with a certain duration where players are constantly making decisions and exhibiting skill throughout the battle. When a player is stunned, they're completely prevented from decision-making and skill, and combat becomes dramatically less interesting as a result: it's no longer that you could've zigged and zagged better as a skulk to avoid marine bullets, but that you are completely disabled the entire fight and then you die.
Certainly the situation isn't absolute in its terribleness. It's not like stomp completely prevents skill from mattering -- you can prepare ahead of time with a Jetpack or spread out or hide behind a wall to minimize the impact.
But Stomp is still a very dominant disabling ability and the game would be better off if Onos had a Tier 3 ability which <i>added</i> to the skill depth of the game rather than <i>reducing </i>it. Hence my suggestion of a directional Onos damage shield, which creates all sorts of directional skill to both the Onos user and Onos' opponent(s).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like where your heads at. Similarly if the onos could create the commanders bone wall it would be a great both offensively and defensively.