The biggest problem: build order "fads".
Metal Handkerchief
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168697Members
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168697Members
I'm getting so annoyed with the game right now, and it's down to one problem. The commanders.
I exclusively play aliens, and I keep seeing the same thing over and over:
-Shade hive first (not necessarily a problem BUT)
-Upgrades chameleon and forgets about silence.
First of all, alien commanders used to go (mostly) shift hive first because of celerity/ adrenaline. They stopped doing that this build, for no apparent reason other than that celerity was nerfed to only work out of combat. So what's the problem? Celerity is still a far more tactically astute first upgrade, because fast expansion is your number one objective in the early game. Not only that but you get adrenaline for your gorges! Chameleon being by far the worst, as cloaking slows down your troops. Celerity is at it's peak value the earlier in the game, and declines substantially over time.
Sure enough, shade hive has it's merits towards one thing: preventing egg locks. But that still doesn't explain why a comm would waste tres on the cloaking upgrade for skulks so early. And with shift hive, you have a much better weapon to combat the egg lock: more eggs!
The thing that bothers me the most is, I guess, that it's so common. It's like alien commanders don't have any individuality. They all recite the same "flavor of the moment" as if it was some extremely clever thing to do when it's clearly not.
Going shade first WITHOUT getting silence is also a great way to say "###### you" to your Lerks.
<b>But the worst of all:</b>
Those of you who research blink before spores. Even when there's not a single fade on the table. There's a special place in hell for you. Especially when you complete spores JUST as the entire marine team are all climbing into Exos!
Grow some spine and make your own choices in the game! Whoever came up with this shade hive first trope is obviously huffing paint thinner.
I exclusively play aliens, and I keep seeing the same thing over and over:
-Shade hive first (not necessarily a problem BUT)
-Upgrades chameleon and forgets about silence.
First of all, alien commanders used to go (mostly) shift hive first because of celerity/ adrenaline. They stopped doing that this build, for no apparent reason other than that celerity was nerfed to only work out of combat. So what's the problem? Celerity is still a far more tactically astute first upgrade, because fast expansion is your number one objective in the early game. Not only that but you get adrenaline for your gorges! Chameleon being by far the worst, as cloaking slows down your troops. Celerity is at it's peak value the earlier in the game, and declines substantially over time.
Sure enough, shade hive has it's merits towards one thing: preventing egg locks. But that still doesn't explain why a comm would waste tres on the cloaking upgrade for skulks so early. And with shift hive, you have a much better weapon to combat the egg lock: more eggs!
The thing that bothers me the most is, I guess, that it's so common. It's like alien commanders don't have any individuality. They all recite the same "flavor of the moment" as if it was some extremely clever thing to do when it's clearly not.
Going shade first WITHOUT getting silence is also a great way to say "###### you" to your Lerks.
<b>But the worst of all:</b>
Those of you who research blink before spores. Even when there's not a single fade on the table. There's a special place in hell for you. Especially when you complete spores JUST as the entire marine team are all climbing into Exos!
Grow some spine and make your own choices in the game! Whoever came up with this shade hive first trope is obviously huffing paint thinner.
Comments
In the current build Camo is a really powerful upgrade for skulks. I don't think any one would deny that. It might even be the best.
You have it exactly backwards. Celerity is pretty much equally powerful the whole game, and benefits lerks, fades and onos reasonably. Shift gives you a good amount of power the whole game.
Shade gives you good power early game, because it buff skulks. Camo is pretty much worthless on anything but skulks. Silence is questionable useful compared to regen, or celerity on any lifeform but skulk.
In pubs, blink must be done before fades come out, because playing fade with out blink is pretty hard (but doable). So people research it before the first fade hits the field on purpose.
Spores are pretty good, but other things are generally more beneficial to the team, like bilebomb, blink, leap or upgrades.
PS: you won't ever get a good grasp of this game, if you never play the marine side.
Huge buff? Reduced cloaking coverage from each shade built is a huge buff?
Whatever man.
PS: I've never seen a pub where marines aren't scanning. Ok, well, maybe once or twice.
No, the one where skulks could move and be complete invisible. that huge buff.
Also, if you played marines you'd know that each scan costs 3 tres... so even if they scan, it really hurts the marine economy.
Camo didn't get nerfed last patch, out-of-combat (time to stealth) timer got increased to 3sec, doesn't mean diddly squat, also Shade range got reduced, WHICH HASN'T GOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING, EXCEPT MAKING SHADES EVEN LESS DESIREABLE (pls revert uwe.)
Oh, cele has never worked in combat, I'm pretty sure. It's just that it's not very noticeable when it wears off. As a gorge you spot it every time.
When I khamm I get spores when there are good lerks around THAT WILL USE SPORES, sometimes I've gotten spores and there's like 2 lerks and neither supports skulks with gas even tho I've researched spores. Pfft! Thankfully they reduced spore research time recently so it isn't such a pain in the ass to get late if you happen to need it.
EDIT: Oh, I forgot: You don't get silence in addition to camo because it costs 25 res or something. You can't get a second upgrade "just in case someone would prefer it" before second hive and 2nd hive upgrade and blink and and...
Even with scanning, if the marine team emerges from the "camo test" successfully, their economy is likely to be demolished.
Any of the three hives is nowadays a decent way to start in pubs. Can't say the same for robo factory and turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=2036951:date=Nov 28 2012, 08:25 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 28 2012, 08:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huge buff? Reduced cloaking coverage from each shade built is a huge buff? Whatever man. PS: I've never seen a pub where marines aren't scanning. Ok, well, maybe once or twice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must be new. Oh, and by the way, where do you play? I'd like to play there, because I've never seen a pub where marines are scanning. Ok, well, maybe once or twice.
It's a very low skill ability that forces upon the marines an extreme burden for marine/commander communication and, on larger servers, a much more micro focus on the commander than what they may be use to. Because public teamwork and communication isn't stellar, the marines may lose morale in the few minutes of the match.
That's an idiotic excuse. Lerks are your quick reaction force, they're the ones who will be first to respond to any "marine ninja" or small force wrecking up an outlying RT or even hive. They'll be there, fighting and harassing for maybe 20 seconds before the first skulk gets there. Silence makes an enormous difference in being spotted. If you have silence, you can park yourself in a dark corner in max range out of LoS and spike away at the attacking marines. Every time, if you have silence, they will fail to see you, and back off (or run around like chicken and die) and ask the commander for a scan. By the time the scan comes in, the alien reinforcements are there.
HOWEVER, if that/those Lerks don't have silence when they go in, they have to take much larger risks, and maybe even die - at which point I know I would quit the game instantly because of the fail commander not recognizing the effort I put in to repel marines from our fronts, and causing me 30 pres which I used to be an asset to the team.
IF YOU ALREADY HAVE SHADE HIVE you are a bloody idiot if you don't get silence as well asap unless everyone on your team is saving pres, in which case you'll lose anyway except for in the direst of pubs.
There is also no excuse, ever, under any circumstances, to ever research blink and leave the lerks waiting on spore. Ever.
I just let them spike me once and look at the direction of the hit marker. It eliminates one dimension of guessing, leaving me only a line that I have to look up/down at. Speaking of which, I think having super accurate hit markers is OP ;-D . I think they should be "sectional," like divide into 8 "hit areas (front, front-left, left, etc.)" instead of having it uber-accurate.
It's almost like a one-dimensional aimbot.
I just let them spike me once and look at the direction of the hit marker. It eliminates one dimension of guessing, leaving me only a line that I have to look up/down at. Speaking of which, I think having super accurate hit markers is OP ;-D . I think they should be "sectional," like divide into 8 "hit areas (front, front-left, left, etc.)" instead of having it uber-accurate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between lerks shooting with/ without silence is
without: you hear instantly where the lerk is and can point your gun there in 0.1 seconds flat and pull the trigger
with: you have to use the hit indicator, which ramps up your reaction time. Also, when pinpointing a lerk through visual cues you're going to be pretty stationary and early in the game before marine armor 2 you will be dead already if the lerk is good.
And all the while, the lerk is seeing where your gun is pointing, and move in for the bite as soon as the marine is "getting warm". Once you've spotted him, he'll already be on you.
Shift hive has nothing to do with celerity and adrenaline. Adrenaline is useless until the midgame when your lerks and fades start needing it (I still say fades don't need it though), and gorges need it for extra healspray more. Celerity is just a generally weak upgrade because it doesn't work anymore as soon as you take or deal damage. The reason people used to, and still do go shift hive first, is that it's very easy to get egg locked against a good marine team. You need the shift chambers to prevent your team from losing momentum strictly because you have less claws in the field. Shift chambers can spawn more eggs, which is a HUGE buff to the alien team in a tight game before the second hive gets up and your egg rate naturally doubles.
Craig is probably the best upgrade chamber in NS in terms of there's no real trick you can use as the marines to make carapasc less powerful in combat, where as a marine commander that scans against cloakers shuts them down completely and horrifically, and if you shoot celerity skulks they lose their extra speed immediately. Regen is also very useful for every lifeform throughout the game, it allows them to exit combat and reenter more quickly than they otherwise would be able to. The craig chambers are pretty good too, they can significantly buff the danger of a gorge nest, and they make the risk of a few ninja marines taking the hive down as a small group much much less threatening.
If we didn't have to worry about the egg locking thing, I would recommend going craig first every game. As it stands, you'll find on a small server no bigger than 8v8, you can get away without the shift chamber to offset the painfully slow egg trickle from the hive, then Craig first is the chamber that will most consistently give you the best results, regardless of weather or not the opposing comm is on his best game.
Whatever man.
PS: I've never seen a pub where marines aren't scanning. Ok, well, maybe once or twice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the effect of a shade is secondary to the fact camo was made to actually hide you fully (about 2 patches ago) where it used to only do 90%.
As such bow camo means you can sit right in front of a marine and as onos and he cant see you until he bumps into you.
You claims that lerks need ailence to be effictive is laughable, I am pretty silent when gliding so I see silence secondary to camo (which allow me to hide in plain site)....now if you had said celerity or carapace I would not dipsute it but silence is better suited to skulks as hides sound off leaping.
Shade first can be fun..aslong as you adjust your play style, allows for fully cloaked groups of skulks to in-circle a target before revealing (pretty scary to suddenly see 3 or more skulks at your feet).
Carapace is useless, barely helps a skulk at all shift hives very limiting...shades people looking for new things.
What the hell kind of server is this?
Not 100% true. A lerk who is gliding at max celerity speed won't be reduced to non-celerity speed until he flaps his wings again when in combat. So as long as you resist the urge to flap when you're in the thick of it, you can spore a large amount of realestate and take a few hits and get out without ever being slowed down. And you can glide forever as long as you don't derp out and crash into something.
<!--quoteo(post=2036986:date=Nov 28 2012, 09:56 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Nov 28 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You claims that lerks need ailence to be effictive is laughable, I am pretty silent when gliding so I see silence secondary to camo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, either you didn't read the part where this is early game and you don't have spores yet, or you're bad. Spikes are silenced by the silence upgrade which is what we're talking about here. And if you're gliding around when you're spiking assailants, you're a derp. And if you have camo, the semi-bright flash on your skin is a dead giveaway when you start shooting.
cloak is good if your skulks and the marine comm are noobs but then it makes lerks completely irrelevant until second hive which is just silly considering early lerks(and a bit later fade) can really turn the game around when they have carapace. Considering the damage type system of ns2, armor is really awesome.
I believe that's true for mid air skulks as well, I'm not saying it's completely useless, it's also a great upgrade for map control as you can be everywhere you need to just a little bit faster, it just isn't the universally potent combat upgrade that it was in NS1 anymore.
An outcome, oddly enough, that I find firmly tied to the relative intolerance for any mistakes from anyone on the team, which most servers demonstrate to a moderate degree.
It's also fantastic for recon, as they can waltz around most of the place and pick up enemy locations, then pick better targets to attack (waiting for the enemy to leave the area before going for the extractor, or sneaking up on smaller groups and ambushing). With other builds first, you're relying on your team to outskill the enemy; which doesn't always happen. So it can act as a handicap as well.
And really you just get more bang for your buck early game as opposed to late game. Mid to late game they'll have more observatories around, and be willing to ping locations more as they have enough upgrades. Not to mention all the grenade spam and flamers going around to pop your cammo anyways. Much harder to ambush and sneak around; as well as one of the teams owning most of the map at that point.
And if you really want shift and gas or whatever else, just communicate with your commander. I haven't played the game overtly much (so most of my stuff is rookie perception ='D ) but as far as I've seen, commanders are very willing to listen and support the requests of the team. If you don't speak up, they'll do what they think is best, and what they think you want. They do want you to succeed after all.
So, yeah if i don't know enough of the players i need to ask them and let them vote for it. At least then i don't get kicked out, i may debate with them, explain it, but i've been kicked out by COD players who just wanted to drop themselves an egg.
Seriously, some Skulks go into cloak right from the Hive and never leave it. And you wonder why nobody defends your Cyst chain under attack or generally harasses Marine RTs. They can build obs in every critical room of the map with that kind of money.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing that bothers me the most is, I guess, that it's so common. It's like alien commanders don't have any individuality. They all recite the same "flavor of the moment" as if it was some extremely clever thing to do when it's clearly not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You seem to be implying there is a lot of 'unnoticed' depth to the alien strategic gameplay. I hate to break it to you, but there isn't. Sure, second hive start strats seem to be less common, though in reality they're still as viable, if not more than single hive + extractors. If anything, second hive start is an even better bet now, since the only other decent competitive strategy (Shift + eggs) has been nerfed into the ground.
Once aliens have a second hive, the strategic choices are INCREDIBLY narrow, it's almost always leap fist, then bilebomb or blink. (Spores only if you have a lot of lerks) Shade is TERRIBLE for a second hive choice (It's ok as a first and as a third only), carapace is almost a necessity by the second hive due to shotguns, and it simply synergises a lot more with celerity and leap. (Proper aggressive set-up)
I've been going on about this forever, the alien RTS side of things simply needs a lot more depth to it.
Camo can also loose you the game, if your skulks don't take it because they are stupid (chances are you'll loose with any build order in that case) or if they take it and walk though the entire map camo'd instead of running to certain places.
Also, as for Spores vs Blink, it depends on the lifeforms on the field obviously. In any case you get both once you have the res :P
Best _public_ tactic as alien is to spam res towers anyway, assuming your team can defend them vs the lone marine ocasionally attacking one. Then you can get all upgades you want without worrying about res :P
Though, the only other viaable strats are 2nd hive first or regen first, I don't think shift hive is very useful at all early game. If anything, it makes your skulks go faster to a place where they die because they are stupid, causing your team to egglock faster then it would normally happen. Regen is excellent for skulks and lerks, as you can stay on full hp all the time once you've taken down a marine.
Also yes it's annoying as hell when you just have camo and no silence available but sadly for most of the team that's the best upgrade and the resource cost of silence is too much to be worth getting early game when there's other things which help the team as a whole.