<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So what then? Remove the debuffs and do tons of damage, then you make the exo, shotgun and rifle redundant. Do slightly more damage but keep the debuffs, then it will probably end up overpowered.
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->again no, they are free compared to 25 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So is your argument now that FT is ok but needs to be cheaper?
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, its anti alien t-res which is 1. alien comm can cover the area with infestation the moment you leave there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except if your using it to help a push then the infestation can't grow fast enough.
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can richochet grenades which will mess with the throw back mechanic, i still wonder how people haven't figured that out yet. needs some kind of mastery though<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which like you said is a skill, and requires a setup such that it will bounce somewhere useful.
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->forcing alien comm to waste massive t-res to deal with gl, pretty fair<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forcing marines to use more way more GLs, arcs or FTs.
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you have no idea about me, you will never have. keep making assumptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Likewise, your the one who seems to think I don't even play the game. I just think you need to use the FT a different way to how your trying to.
So far your only solution to the FT is to make it do damage instead of debuffs. But like I said above it's going to be stepping on the toes of one of the other weapons. Keeping in mind that FT is supposed to be a support weapon, present a solution. Personally I think a range increase and maybe a drop to 20 pres would put it in a very good spot. But your ideas?
<!--quoteo(post=2041003:date=Dec 6 2012, 06:19 AM:name=Emoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Emoo @ Dec 6 2012, 06:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what then? Remove the debuffs and do tons of damage, then you make the exo, shotgun and rifle redundant. Do slightly more damage but keep the debuffs, then it will probably end up overpowered.
So is your argument now that FT is ok but needs to be cheaper?
Except if your using it to help a push then the infestation can't grow fast enough.
Which like you said is a skill, and requires a setup such that it will bounce somewhere useful.
Forcing marines to use more way more GLs, arcs or FTs.
Likewise, your the one who seems to think I don't even play the game. I just think you need to use the FT a different way to how your trying to.
So far your only solution to the FT is to make it do damage instead of debuffs. But like I said above it's going to be stepping on the toes of one of the other weapons. Keeping in mind that FT is supposed to be a support weapon, present a solution. Personally I think a range increase and maybe a drop to 20 pres would put it in a very good spot. But your ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO
seriously, just read my comments again. you don't even know what i am talking about
<!--quoteo(post=2041021:date=Dec 6 2012, 07:07 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 6 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys DO realize he is just trolling you HARD ... don't you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, stating a personal opinion is not called trolling especially when it's highly consistent
seriously, just read my comments again. you don't even know what i am talking about<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just reread all of them. The only thing you've said is that FT is crap, that the debuffs are useless, the only fix you've suggest is to trade the debuffs for damage but then your treading on the toes of the other weapons.
So enlighten us, what do you think it should do while keeping its role as a support weapon?
The only things I got from this thread are: (A) Flamethrower needs a range increase (i agree)
(B) Kespec doesn't realize that his entire argument revolves around the fact that shotguns at the moment are too strong. They're a catch-all major damage increase against everything. There's no downside to having a shotgun vs. an LMG as it stands right now. This helps to explain why Fades are having a difficult time making a difference against good players.
<!--quoteo(post=2041105:date=Dec 6 2012, 06:40 PM:name=greenpee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (greenpee @ Dec 6 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only things I got from this thread are: (A) Flamethrower needs a range increase (i agree)
(B) Kespec doesn't realize that his entire argument revolves around the fact that shotguns at the moment are too strong. They're a catch-all major damage increase against everything. There's no downside to having a shotgun vs. an LMG as it stands right now. This helps to explain why Fades are having a difficult time making a difference against good players.
A yeh B yeh shotguns are in a very odd place right now C would be interesting to hear exactly how long and how much ammo it takes? Does flame damage stack with multiple flamers?
As best as I can understand kDamageType.Flame is just Normal damage + a burn effect. It also looks like one player stacks the dot 3 times per second to a max of 20 stacks for a 3dps per stack. So at 20 stacks you're doing 60dps for 6 seconds (360 dmg on top of the 7.5 dmg of the flamethrower * the 30 clip size = 585 dmg total, I think). Now I don't know for sure if this is the cap for any building, but I think it might be. So this kinda confirms that you only need one flamethrower, but the damage increases seem to be significant from having that singular flamethrower, which my experience in the field suggested.
Comments
So what then? Remove the debuffs and do tons of damage, then you make the exo, shotgun and rifle redundant. Do slightly more damage but keep the debuffs, then it will probably end up overpowered.
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->again no, they are free compared to 25 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is your argument now that FT is ok but needs to be cheaper?
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, its anti alien t-res which is 1. alien comm can cover the area with infestation the moment you leave there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except if your using it to help a push then the infestation can't grow fast enough.
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can richochet grenades which will mess with the throw back mechanic, i still wonder how people haven't figured that out yet. needs some kind of mastery though<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which like you said is a skill, and requires a setup such that it will bounce somewhere useful.
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->forcing alien comm to waste massive t-res to deal with gl, pretty fair<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forcing marines to use more way more GLs, arcs or FTs.
<!--quoteo(post=2040988:date=Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 6 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you have no idea about me, you will never have. keep making assumptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Likewise, your the one who seems to think I don't even play the game. I just think you need to use the FT a different way to how your trying to.
So far your only solution to the FT is to make it do damage instead of debuffs. But like I said above it's going to be stepping on the toes of one of the other weapons. Keeping in mind that FT is supposed to be a support weapon, present a solution. Personally I think a range increase and maybe a drop to 20 pres would put it in a very good spot. But your ideas?
So is your argument now that FT is ok but needs to be cheaper?
Except if your using it to help a push then the infestation can't grow fast enough.
Which like you said is a skill, and requires a setup such that it will bounce somewhere useful.
Forcing marines to use more way more GLs, arcs or FTs.
Likewise, your the one who seems to think I don't even play the game. I just think you need to use the FT a different way to how your trying to.
So far your only solution to the FT is to make it do damage instead of debuffs. But like I said above it's going to be stepping on the toes of one of the other weapons. Keeping in mind that FT is supposed to be a support weapon, present a solution. Personally I think a range increase and maybe a drop to 20 pres would put it in a very good spot. But your ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO
seriously, just read my comments again. you don't even know what i am talking about
no, stating a personal opinion is not called trolling especially when it's highly consistent
seriously, just read my comments again. you don't even know what i am talking about<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just reread all of them. The only thing you've said is that FT is crap, that the debuffs are useless, the only fix you've suggest is to trade the debuffs for damage but then your treading on the toes of the other weapons.
So enlighten us, what do you think it should do while keeping its role as a support weapon?
(A) Flamethrower needs a range increase (i agree)
(B) Kespec doesn't realize that his entire argument revolves around the fact that shotguns at the moment are too strong. They're a catch-all major damage increase against everything. There's no downside to having a shotgun vs. an LMG as it stands right now. This helps to explain why Fades are having a difficult time making a difference against good players.
© As for flamer vs building or sg vs. building run this test yourself on a listen server w/ cheats for res and autobuild: 1. Build two hives, mist them until theyre both mature, switch teams, get jps, w3, shotguns and flamers. 2. Set pgs near those hives and an armory. 3. jp to the top of the hive and hold leftclick while timing it. 4. switch weaps and go to the other hive and do the same. I actually ran this twice for the shotgun, one just holding left click down (took about 10 more seconds) and one letting it fully reload before resuming fire. The flamethrower should win by about 30-40 seconds. It's not even debateable.
(A) Flamethrower needs a range increase (i agree)
(B) Kespec doesn't realize that his entire argument revolves around the fact that shotguns at the moment are too strong. They're a catch-all major damage increase against everything. There's no downside to having a shotgun vs. an LMG as it stands right now. This helps to explain why Fades are having a difficult time making a difference against good players.
© As for flamer vs building or sg vs. building run this test yourself on a listen server w/ cheats for res and autobuild: 1. Build two hives, mist them until theyre both mature, switch teams, get jps, w3, shotguns and flamers. 2. Set pgs near those hives and an armory. 3. jp to the top of the hive and hold leftclick while timing it. 4. switch weaps and go to the other hive and do the same. I actually ran this twice for the shotgun, one just holding left click down (took about 10 more seconds) and one letting it fully reload before resuming fire. The flamethrower should win by about 30-40 seconds. It's not even debateable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A yeh
B yeh shotguns are in a very odd place right now
C would be interesting to hear exactly how long and how much ammo it takes? Does flame damage stack with multiple flamers?
Flame: 35sec
Shotgun (full reload): 65sec
Shotgun (one shell reload): 74sec
For both weapons it takes the full loadout to kill the hive, the flamethrower just goes through ammo faster.
As for multiples? I have no idea. Can't test that by myself and I don't have the desire to wait for enough res/time in a public server lol
edit: So in Balance.lua there's this:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kFlamethrowerDamage = 7.5
kFlamethrowerDamageType = kDamageType.Flame
kFlamethrowerClipSize = 30
kBurnDamagePerStackPerSecond = 3
kFlamethrowerMaxStacks = 20
kFlamethrowerBurnDuration = 6
kFlamethrowerStackRate = 0.4
kFlameRadius = 1.8
kFlameDamageStackWeight = 0.5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
As best as I can understand kDamageType.Flame is just Normal damage + a burn effect. It also looks like one player stacks the dot 3 times per second to a max of 20 stacks for a 3dps per stack. So at 20 stacks you're doing 60dps for 6 seconds (360 dmg on top of the 7.5 dmg of the flamethrower * the 30 clip size = 585 dmg total, I think). Now I don't know for sure if this is the cap for any building, but I think it might be. So this kinda confirms that you only need one flamethrower, but the damage increases seem to be significant from having that singular flamethrower, which my experience in the field suggested.