I hadn't already got the chance to try this out but here's my thinkings about it...
About what i've read i think death penalty should stay but maybe the game should be planned differently..
What I think is: 1) No more hive (or maybe late game), but instead, 3 Shift spawning eggs are randomly generated on the map. So Aliens spawn more spread and have to regroup to be efficient. The marines can deduce where they are from where the Aliens are coming. Marines can't rush one point anymore and need to look around the map to stop the alien infestation. Maybe the Gorge could spawn more Shift or Hive for lot of res as the game goes longer.
2) Marines can revive their teammates at one condition. They need to found survivors. When they do so, death marines take control over them. Maybe they should be technician with only a pistol and axe to start over. Or maybe the Marines should give them one of their weapon. So Death keeps his penalty effect, but dead people still have a chance to play a bit more. I don't know exactly how thoses survivors should be implemented but i have two ideas about it... a) They spawn near 3 auto-turret and can be killed by alien team. The Marines know at the beginning where they are and they need to go there and protect them. The Aliens must found them and kill them to increase their winning odds. b) They spawn in a wall of clog and need to be rescued by the Marine team. Aliens know where they are. Marines need to find them and destroy the Clog. Anymay, those survivors need to be in limited number like 50% of Marine team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b) They spawn in a wall of clog and need to be rescued by the Marine team. Aliens know where they are. Marines need to find them and destroy the Clog.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know that I love you ? :D. The idea is great. See you soon prisoners :p.
For the next version I'm working on the alien gameplay, to increase the diversity of the game. All alien evolutions will be equal in cost and power (Fade will cost 25 res instead of 50, but will be more slower and less tough). Except for the Onos (which is the "Boss").
In addition, I will rework some elements for marines: better motion tracker, laser sight, red colors, etc... ;)
To a part inspired by the Forsaken Mod, I made an overhoul for the Alien Vision Shader. Work is still in progress, but I'd really like to test this within a Forsaken match next week. If you'd like, take a look at my presentation in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=118660&view=findpost&p=2066954" target="_blank">the Dark Vision Mod Thread</a> and have a try.
<!--quoteo(post=2067185:date=Jan 27 2013, 01:36 AM:name=lucskywalker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lucskywalker @ Jan 27 2013, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an amazing work :). I am trying to change the "vision" of aliens for the next version. I try to add an "aura" around marines.
I can use your shader mod, if it does not bother you ;). Of course, I will write your name in the credits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be great. At the moment, I am also working on some more complex parts of my shader. The last thing, I put into it, was hexagonal compound eyes, depth of field blurring and anisotropic eye dispersion. The changes are not online yet, but I hope to finish it this week. Unfortunately, calculations are so complex that I had to switch to shader model version 3, but I guess, most graphics cards can handle this anyways nowadays.
Nothing more to say. Except that I'm working on the alpha 5 and I'm busy IRL.
Nevertheless, I plan the playtest for the next week, with the new alien gameplay .
Had a short game on it, unfortunately not many people joined but I got a good impression of the mod at least. Really love the concept, you definitely succeeded in creating something scary.
Some thoughts:
- Default (greenish) view for aliens is a little dark, I pretty much had to run with alien vision on all the time, making the changes to the default view pretty moot and undermining the atmosphere to some extent. Ideally imo you should just get rid of alien vision and offer a default view that is accessible enough in the dark. Or you could have the 'minimal alien vision' mod combined with your greenish default look for alien vision.
- Alien commander, why not have one? The game zombie master comes to mind, I reckon you could actually create a lot more scariness if a human rather than AI was in control. It'd also make gameplay a lot more dynamic in the long run. Basically the alien commander would have action points to spend, just like in ZM, the possibilities are endless as to how you could let him interact with the environment. (Bone walls popping up, playing with light and sound, hallucinations, fake hives, forward spawning, etc)
- Marine classes/roles, I actually think it would be beneficial for marine gameplay if there were some dedicated roles, similar to for example Alien Swarm. One person should be able to carry some ammo, another some medpacks (limited of course) or welders.
- Objective, the find and destroy hive setup sounds very epic on paper but it's actually very dull and NS 2 like in practice. I don't really know how this can be addressed, I'd need to think on it a little more, but I do reckon it needs some work one way or another. It also feels anticlimatic in a way, when you finally find that hive, when supposedly that should be the stage at which things really get crazy . You could also have side-objectives, what if say marines had to restore power to the spaceship in addition to clearing the aliens out? Have them fix a few power nodes on random locations, this way you could even allow them to carry mobile sentries, obs, etc...
- Limited flashlight, force players to not have their flashlight on at all time. In general it would probably be interesting if once in a while marine players had to halt and do something or wait/hold rather than them being able to just rush straight for the hive like they currently do. It would also make for longer games this way.
- Have the motion sensor on hand instead of passive, for obvious reasons. It's a lot more exciting when one player has to sacrifice holding a weapon while the motion sensor is up and it promotes teamwork. Alternatively, have the sensor attached to say the pistol or some lesser weapon.
I've not played this yet, but it looks awesome and I'll keep my eyes out for an announcement of the next play test.
I'm not sure having all lifeforms at one costs is a good idea though... It'll require a lot of balancing to ensure they're equal or a mix is required...otherwise everyone will choose the most 'powerful'.
I think it'd be interesting to have all aliens and abilities unlocked from the start, but higher lifeforms cost more than lower ones. Also giving upgrades such as carapace/camo/leap/spores etc. a cost. Aliens would have to decide to spend some Pres to upgrade their current lifeform at the risk of losing them (and therefore the Pres spent) , or save up for a different lifeform and then their abilities.
Examples
"Do I give my skulk leap and carapace for 'x'+'y' Pres hoping it'll make it easier to earn more Pres by biting marines, or, do i leave them and earn it slower and buy a fade? Maybe I should buy regen so i can hit and run repeatedly..."
"I can afford a Lerk, but I need spores too so I'll wait a minute. Then I'll just be careful with it till I can afford carapace."
Opens up more strategy and diversity for the aliens and gives them a reason to try and stay alive too. It should also help stop an explosion of higher lifeforms.
I'd also like to see random spawns for the aliens (if not implemented) so they're not already in a group..they have to coordinate and group up if they want to take to take them down together. Maybe remove player icons from the map for aliens, so communication is required to find each other?
Edit: After just playing a few rounds, i see upgrades already cost res. Awesome
Hello everyone!
I don't have much time right now to work on this mod. But I do my best .
Default (greenish) view for aliens is a little dark
I'm currently working on the alien view (default and vision) on the next version, to provide the impression that they ARE the predators.
Previously, the default view was "light green". But I edited it because they couldn't determine the "view" of marines (and the real light). Which makes it difficult the possibility to hide.
Alien commander, why not have one?
There was a commander before, in early versions.
Even if the commander could provide a strategic part to aliens, the gameplay will not be original (ns2), and not very aggressive. In this mod, the main mission for aliens is to KILL marines. And not to destroy the powernode which is at the other end of the map.
The aliens need to work more as a team and not depend on one person. The teamwork is already possible on NS2. And it becomes vital in this mod .
Marine classes/roles
This feature already exists in this mod. But instead of marking the "class" on the forehead, I thought it would be more interesting to assign a role indirectly, according to marine equipments.
Marines must decide between them, who bring the welder or the grenade launcher .
Objective
This has already been discussed earlier. And as I already planned: Missions will be the last thing that will be implemented in this mod. I try to tweak the game before adding contents .
However, it's true that the current mission ("kill the hive") is not interesting.
There are several ways to improve it. As you said: the addition of side missions, improving the current mission (add more effects ?) or make the mission longer.
I'm not sure having all lifeforms at one costs is a good idea though... It'll require a lot of balancing
This is why this mod is an alpha .
I would like to offer to aliens a variety of choices and actions, which must be very simple and fast (for a game that will last between 5 and 10 minutes).
This is an idea that requires a lot of balancing, indeed. And many playtests. It will be tested soon.
Limited flashlight
Have the motion sensor on hand
random spawns for the aliens
Very interesting ideas . I will try to implement it.
Nevertheless, marines need the motion sensor, passively. I can make a visual version of the motion sensor, but it can prevent the wearer to use a weapon simultaneously.
I hope I could make myself understood .
Have fun guys !
One more thing, hydra spam seems a little OP at the moment. I've seen a whole team drop hydras at the hive and marines really couldn't do much about it.
Yeah, albeit the test was short, it was fun, too. Though, I must admit, that marines could use some more HP.
Well, maybe (or better likely) I am just a very bad player, because I was constantly dying wether I played aliens or marines.
But on the other hand, marines did not win any games today, and, because aliens do respawn but marines do not, aliens have the advantage, that they can press approaching marines and finaly wait at the hive, too. Many times, the marines did reach the hive, but weren't able to kill it.
It seemed that flashlights turned out after some time, but I never saw any indication when this happened. Most of the time, marines move in groups, and it is hard to tell the illuminations apart, so I was more confused by this than scared/worried.
Also, It is still hard to tell how wounded my character is. I know, there should be some red effect indicating health status, but either this effect is very subtile (and therefore useless in heavy combat) or only shown too late, so that I get killed first. Either way, I do not think, that the missing health status is beneficial to the athmosphere of this mod. OK, immersion could be considered better without a HUD, but only at the cost, that you are NOT scared by your health status. If you know, you are nearly dead, you'll probably act so. If you can't know, you don't care. And the better immersion due to removal of a HUD is imho a weak argument. We are playing in a futuristic world, so armor integrated instant diagnostics could/should be standard equipment. That's what I'd expect. Maybe, the HUD display could be optional, and by pressing a key, you can see (toggle) your status informations at the cost of an impaired view. Because all alien creatures can be considered expendable, this information is naturally only relevant for marines, aliens shouldn't be bothered by such uninterestic information.
Playing aliens is really nice and my shader really adds to the mood of the mod. (Well, I know, luke mentioned some problems in his implementation, but I used my shader anyway.) As stated before, I'd prefere a bit more HP for the aliens and (a lot) more HP for the marines, but maybe this is just a matter of taste. Gameplay is still somewhat fast paced, but I had the feeling, that it was a bit slower than last time, so I have nothing to complain here.
That's all from me for this time. Hope, something's usefull.
The playtest was good but there are many problems that I need to correct.
For example, when the flashlight turns off (lack of energy), players must hear a sound (an electric shock). This doesn't work perfectly. Blinks effect too.
Same thing with the "red screen" for marines. This doesn't work well: too subtile and you must hear an heartbeat when you are near to fall.
I didn't play a lot with marines, so I can't tell why they lose a lot.. What I saw with aliens: Marines work perfectly together at start. When marines are near the hive, they separate and are killed, one per one, by aliens.
On the other side, marines don't search for an alternative, or they don't cover well their positions. The new MT don't help.
Nevertheless, marines will respawn in the next version, but they will depends of his teammates and they will respawn with a great penalty. I don't want to miss with the death penalty .
It's a reworked version of "red screen", with an heartbeat in the last step.
In the 2nd and 3rd stage (between 75% and 25% HP), this is a bit hard to identify the real value of our health. But when you know that a skulk bite is painful, 90HP or 80HP not mean much.
When you see some "blood" on your screen, you can understand easily that you are hurted. When you hear your heart... god help us .
There will be an another playtest this week (maybe Friday). We will try this change.
It's hard to see the effect in darkness. Maybe in game it's clearer than in the video. The flashlight looked to be flashing red in one stage which was weird.
I like the heart beat...maybe it could be a little loud to other people's tastes?
Judging from the video, the effect is still to subtile considering that you play most time in the dark. And even in the light, it can easily be misinterpreted by emergency lighting. But, the heartbeat sound ist cool and usefull, unfortunately this is the only definite indication while it is the last step when it is nearly too late.
This video is darker than expected. But globally, this is what we have in the game.
The other idea I had was to change the color of the flashlight depending on the state of the player (yellow when hurted, red when nearly dead... for example). A little hard to configure, but this is an idea.
I leave this in a state, it will be tested during the playtest and I will tweak it for the next version.
Comments
edit: Found them....I had filtered 'empty servers' out. Come on people join the game :D
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About what i've read i think death penalty should stay but maybe the game should be planned differently..
What I think is:
1) No more hive (or maybe late game), but instead, 3 Shift spawning eggs are randomly generated on the map. So Aliens spawn more spread and have to regroup to be efficient. The marines can deduce where they are from where the Aliens are coming. Marines can't rush one point anymore and need to look around the map to stop the alien infestation. Maybe the Gorge could spawn more Shift or Hive for lot of res as the game goes longer.
2) Marines can revive their teammates at one condition. They need to found survivors. When they do so, death marines take control over them. Maybe they should be technician with only a pistol and axe to start over. Or maybe the Marines should give them one of their weapon. So Death keeps his penalty effect, but dead people still have a chance to play a bit more.
I don't know exactly how thoses survivors should be implemented but i have two ideas about it...
a) They spawn near 3 auto-turret and can be killed by alien team. The Marines know at the beginning where they are and they need to go there and protect them. The Aliens must found them and kill them to increase their winning odds.
b) They spawn in a wall of clog and need to be rescued by the Marine team. Aliens know where they are. Marines need to find them and destroy the Clog.
Anymay, those survivors need to be in limited number like 50% of Marine team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b) They spawn in a wall of clog and need to be rescued by the Marine team. Aliens know where they are. Marines need to find them and destroy the Clog.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know that I love you ? :D.
The idea is great. See you soon prisoners :p.
For the next version I'm working on the alien gameplay, to increase the diversity of the game. All alien evolutions will be equal in cost and power (Fade will cost 25 res instead of 50, but will be more slower and less tough). Except for the Onos (which is the "Boss").
In addition, I will rework some elements for marines: better motion tracker, laser sight, red colors, etc... ;)
I am trying to change the "vision" of aliens for the next version. I try to add an "aura" around marines.
I can use your shader mod, if it does not bother you ;).
Of course, I will write your name in the credits.
Maybe only melee weapons can break the goo so its harder to free them.
I am trying to change the "vision" of aliens for the next version. I try to add an "aura" around marines.
I can use your shader mod, if it does not bother you ;).
Of course, I will write your name in the credits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be great. At the moment, I am also working on some more complex parts of my shader. The last thing, I put into it, was hexagonal compound eyes, depth of field blurring and anisotropic eye dispersion. The changes are not online yet, but I hope to finish it this week. Unfortunately, calculations are so complex that I had to switch to shader model version 3, but I guess, most graphics cards can handle this anyways nowadays.
... with 2 little surprise for marines
Nothing more to say. Except that I'm working on the alpha 5 and I'm busy IRL.
Nevertheless, I plan the playtest for the next week, with the new alien gameplay
Some thoughts:
- Default (greenish) view for aliens is a little dark, I pretty much had to run with alien vision on all the time, making the changes to the default view pretty moot and undermining the atmosphere to some extent. Ideally imo you should just get rid of alien vision and offer a default view that is accessible enough in the dark. Or you could have the 'minimal alien vision' mod combined with your greenish default look for alien vision.
- Alien commander, why not have one? The game zombie master comes to mind, I reckon you could actually create a lot more scariness if a human rather than AI was in control. It'd also make gameplay a lot more dynamic in the long run. Basically the alien commander would have action points to spend, just like in ZM, the possibilities are endless as to how you could let him interact with the environment. (Bone walls popping up, playing with light and sound, hallucinations, fake hives, forward spawning, etc)
- Marine classes/roles, I actually think it would be beneficial for marine gameplay if there were some dedicated roles, similar to for example Alien Swarm. One person should be able to carry some ammo, another some medpacks (limited of course) or welders.
- Objective, the find and destroy hive setup sounds very epic on paper but it's actually very dull and NS 2 like in practice. I don't really know how this can be addressed, I'd need to think on it a little more, but I do reckon it needs some work one way or another. It also feels anticlimatic in a way, when you finally find that hive, when supposedly that should be the stage at which things really get crazy . You could also have side-objectives, what if say marines had to restore power to the spaceship in addition to clearing the aliens out? Have them fix a few power nodes on random locations, this way you could even allow them to carry mobile sentries, obs, etc...
- Limited flashlight, force players to not have their flashlight on at all time. In general it would probably be interesting if once in a while marine players had to halt and do something or wait/hold rather than them being able to just rush straight for the hive like they currently do. It would also make for longer games this way.
- Have the motion sensor on hand instead of passive, for obvious reasons. It's a lot more exciting when one player has to sacrifice holding a weapon while the motion sensor is up and it promotes teamwork. Alternatively, have the sensor attached to say the pistol or some lesser weapon.
I'm not sure having all lifeforms at one costs is a good idea though... It'll require a lot of balancing to ensure they're equal or a mix is required...otherwise everyone will choose the most 'powerful'.
I think it'd be interesting to have all aliens and abilities unlocked from the start, but higher lifeforms cost more than lower ones. Also giving upgrades such as carapace/camo/leap/spores etc. a cost. Aliens would have to decide to spend some Pres to upgrade their current lifeform at the risk of losing them (and therefore the Pres spent) , or save up for a different lifeform and then their abilities.
Examples
"Do I give my skulk leap and carapace for 'x'+'y' Pres hoping it'll make it easier to earn more Pres by biting marines, or, do i leave them and earn it slower and buy a fade? Maybe I should buy regen so i can hit and run repeatedly..."
"I can afford a Lerk, but I need spores too so I'll wait a minute. Then I'll just be careful with it till I can afford carapace."
Opens up more strategy and diversity for the aliens and gives them a reason to try and stay alive too. It should also help stop an explosion of higher lifeforms.
I'd also like to see random spawns for the aliens (if not implemented) so they're not already in a group..they have to coordinate and group up if they want to take to take them down together. Maybe remove player icons from the map for aliens, so communication is required to find each other?
Edit: After just playing a few rounds, i see upgrades already cost res. Awesome
I don't have much time right now to work on this mod. But I do my best
I'm currently working on the alien view (default and vision) on the next version, to provide the impression that they ARE the predators.
Previously, the default view was "light green". But I edited it because they couldn't determine the "view" of marines (and the real light). Which makes it difficult the possibility to hide.
There was a commander before, in early versions.
Even if the commander could provide a strategic part to aliens, the gameplay will not be original (ns2), and not very aggressive. In this mod, the main mission for aliens is to KILL marines. And not to destroy the powernode which is at the other end of the map.
The aliens need to work more as a team and not depend on one person. The teamwork is already possible on NS2. And it becomes vital in this mod
This feature already exists in this mod. But instead of marking the "class" on the forehead, I thought it would be more interesting to assign a role indirectly, according to marine equipments.
Marines must decide between them, who bring the welder or the grenade launcher
This has already been discussed earlier. And as I already planned: Missions will be the last thing that will be implemented in this mod. I try to tweak the game before adding contents
However, it's true that the current mission ("kill the hive") is not interesting.
There are several ways to improve it. As you said: the addition of side missions, improving the current mission (add more effects ?) or make the mission longer.
This is why this mod is an alpha
I would like to offer to aliens a variety of choices and actions, which must be very simple and fast (for a game that will last between 5 and 10 minutes).
This is an idea that requires a lot of balancing, indeed. And many playtests. It will be tested soon.
Very interesting ideas
Nevertheless, marines need the motion sensor, passively. I can make a visual version of the motion sensor, but it can prevent the wearer to use a weapon simultaneously.
I hope I could make myself understood
Have fun guys !
There is a lot of changes with this version, for both teams, that I want to test. You are welcome for this playtest
There are a few things to finalize, such the reduction of footstep sound (marines only). But don't worry, it's planned
Thanks to Ineluki for this shader
I hope, I'll have time to join.
You can found it by using the game filter: "forsaken test".
Have fun!
I'll upload videos tomorrow.
Well, maybe (or better likely) I am just a very bad player, because I was constantly dying wether I played aliens or marines.
But on the other hand, marines did not win any games today, and, because aliens do respawn but marines do not, aliens have the advantage, that they can press approaching marines and finaly wait at the hive, too. Many times, the marines did reach the hive, but weren't able to kill it.
It seemed that flashlights turned out after some time, but I never saw any indication when this happened. Most of the time, marines move in groups, and it is hard to tell the illuminations apart, so I was more confused by this than scared/worried.
Also, It is still hard to tell how wounded my character is. I know, there should be some red effect indicating health status, but either this effect is very subtile (and therefore useless in heavy combat) or only shown too late, so that I get killed first. Either way, I do not think, that the missing health status is beneficial to the athmosphere of this mod. OK, immersion could be considered better without a HUD, but only at the cost, that you are NOT scared by your health status. If you know, you are nearly dead, you'll probably act so. If you can't know, you don't care. And the better immersion due to removal of a HUD is imho a weak argument. We are playing in a futuristic world, so armor integrated instant diagnostics could/should be standard equipment. That's what I'd expect. Maybe, the HUD display could be optional, and by pressing a key, you can see (toggle) your status informations at the cost of an impaired view. Because all alien creatures can be considered expendable, this information is naturally only relevant for marines, aliens shouldn't be bothered by such uninterestic information.
Playing aliens is really nice and my shader really adds to the mood of the mod. (Well, I know, luke mentioned some problems in his implementation, but I used my shader anyway.) As stated before, I'd prefere a bit more HP for the aliens and (a lot) more HP for the marines, but maybe this is just a matter of taste. Gameplay is still somewhat fast paced, but I had the feeling, that it was a bit slower than last time, so I have nothing to complain here.
That's all from me for this time. Hope, something's usefull.
There should be a minimal hud I agree. And I think the audio tracker should be a purchasable 2nd item.
Alien and marine health values are OK for me.
The flashlight blinks somewhat at intervals. Didn't notice it running out of battery.
The playtest was good but there are many problems that I need to correct.
For example, when the flashlight turns off (lack of energy), players must hear a sound (an electric shock). This doesn't work perfectly. Blinks effect too.
Same thing with the "red screen" for marines. This doesn't work well: too subtile and you must hear an heartbeat when you are near to fall.
I didn't play a lot with marines, so I can't tell why they lose a lot.. What I saw with aliens: Marines work perfectly together at start. When marines are near the hive, they separate and are killed, one per one, by aliens.
On the other side, marines don't search for an alternative, or they don't cover well their positions. The new MT don't help.
Nevertheless, marines will respawn in the next version, but they will depends of his teammates and they will respawn with a great penalty. I don't want to miss with the death penalty
See you soon!
I will make a video about the "health interface", when I have finished to solve all these problems.
It's a reworked version of "red screen", with an heartbeat in the last step.
In the 2nd and 3rd stage (between 75% and 25% HP), this is a bit hard to identify the real value of our health. But when you know that a skulk bite is painful, 90HP or 80HP not mean much.
When you see some "blood" on your screen, you can understand easily that you are hurted. When you hear your heart... god help us
There will be an another playtest this week (maybe Friday). We will try this change.
I like the heart beat...maybe it could be a little loud to other people's tastes?
The other idea I had was to change the color of the flashlight depending on the state of the player (yellow when hurted, red when nearly dead... for example). A little hard to configure, but this is an idea.
I leave this in a state, it will be tested during the playtest and I will tweak it for the next version.
You should add it to the Steam Group events listing so people will get a pop-up notification
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/NS2Forsaken#events
Thank you
Note: In order to find the playtest server, you must search the game "forsaken test".