<!--quoteo(post=2064514:date=Jan 22 2013, 07:51 AM:name=lwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lwf @ Jan 22 2013, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, TF2 swaps the next player to die when the teams are unbalanced, not the latest player to join. I should know, I replaced that system with a NS2 auto balance clone!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes you are right, I forgot that. Although I'm sure some servers I have played on will force suicide on the last to join if no one dies.
Both systems suit TF2 but would be horrible in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2064510:date=Jan 21 2013, 07:44 PM:name=Seahunts)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seahunts @ Jan 21 2013, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 3 options I see for auto-balance are: 1. Current system 2. TF2 style swap the last joined system 3. No auto-balance. Allows 8vs6 or even 8vs2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Option 4: Increased respawning speed (and eggs) for team with less players Option 5: Decreased respawning speed for team with more players
Option 6: Similar to current system but allow for 1 man advantage. (Currently if its 6v8, 2 ppl sit out, but 7 v 8 and no one sits out)
Option 7: Increased PRES flow for team with less players
Option 8: Increased stats (any combination of: hp, regen, armor, dmg, speed, reload speed) for team with less players
Option 9: Respawning after the teams are balanced stil occurs but at a much slower rate. (6v8, the 7th and 8th will respawn at much slower rate)
<!--quoteo(post=2064601:date=Jan 22 2013, 04:50 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Jan 22 2013, 04:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Option 4: Increased respawning speed (and eggs) for team with less players Option 5: Decreased respawning speed for team with more players
Option 6: Similar to current system but allow for 1 man advantage. (Currently if its 6v8, 2 ppl sit out, but 7 v 8 and no one sits out)
Option 7: Increased PRES flow for team with less players
Option 8: Increased stats (any combination of: hp, regen, armor, dmg, speed, reload speed) for team with less players
Option 9: Respawning after the teams are balanced stil occurs but at a much slower rate. (6v8, the 7th and 8th will respawn at much slower rate)
List goes on...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is typically about critical massing, so the somewhat restrictive spawn time won't be of much benefit in proper games.
<!--quoteo(post=2064646:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:15 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 22 2013, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is typically about critical massing, so the somewhat restrictive spawn time won't be of much benefit in proper games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would be able to have as much influence as the current process does, after all the winning team has to lose players for either to have any effect.
Seriously, it would be much less annoying and counterintuitive if it would just quadruple respawntime for the team with more players (factor up for you to decide).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, if a team is dominating, due to a few great/aggressive players, those players should be able to survive a lot longer than any unskilled base camper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> An aggressive player is more likely to die than someone humping an armory or walking around the map where no action is going on. If you get 3 good marines in a match and one of them gets spawnlocked, this will hinder your advance and drag out the game. If aliens play it smart, they may even get a comeback like in Roobubba's story. Shutting out players from the game is just a very bad thing to do. This is like jailbreak reversed, being locked out because you are doing well is simply not justified. The autoteambalalnce as well as the egglock system is bad design imo.
<!--quoteo(post=2064733:date=Jan 22 2013, 11:40 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 22 2013, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be able to have as much influence as the current process does, after all the winning team has to lose players for either to have any effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current system reduces your ability to critical mass, slowing respawn times does not.
<!--quoteo(post=2064747:date=Jan 22 2013, 08:13 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 22 2013, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current system reduces your ability to critical mass, slowing respawn times does not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but it limits it the same way increasing spawn timers would on side with more (though slower than decreasing side with fewers spawn times). Simply because neither address the fact that 1 side is up 2+ players...until someone on the winning side dies. So the side with fewer players (aka losing side) having their respawn timer shortened would be MORE likely to influence the result and keep the game balanced as they are more likely to be dieing than the winning team.
<!--quoteo(post=2064746:date=Jan 22 2013, 10:06 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 22 2013, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, it would be much less annoying and counterintuitive if it would just quadruple respawntime for the team with more players (factor up for you to decide).
An aggressive player is more likely to die than someone humping an armory or walking around the map where no action is going on. If you get 3 good marines in a match and one of them gets spawnlocked, this will hinder your advance and drag out the game. If aliens play it smart, they may even get a comeback like in Roobubba's story. Shutting out players from the game is just a very bad thing to do. This is like jailbreak reversed, being locked out because you are doing well is simply not justified. The autoteambalalnce as well as the egglock system is bad design imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's just a bad way to force some balance for many reasons, people just want to play and have fun, anything that causes annoyance and the opposite of that should be removed or improved, punishing one team just because the other is a few players down is wrong and unfair, if they're down a few then it's usually just a temporary thing and if it's not well then the game should just be allowed to end because perhaps one team is simply much better than the other and it's just a game.
If they want to do it right then dynamically scale spawn time, health or weapon damage to restore a little balance temporarily but really it's just one of those things that should be accepted, if i had to choose between waiting or being on the team with a few less players id choose the team, however i won't change teams unless it's early game or the other one loses more than 3 or 4 players.
So many months later, this is still a huge problem for me. I want to revive this thread.
I don't remember what me or others posted here, but here's what usually happens: you are winning and some of your enemies decide to leave. It's ok if they leave server, new players will join quickly. But most of those don't want to play this particular match anymore and don't want to leave the server, so they go RR or spectators. And you can't play because THEY don't want to play. And no way this balances the game, it affects it the other way. First, it prolongs matches that people don't want to play, they actually go to RR because they want to start a new match faster, but instead they make it longer.. Second, it drastically changes the way people affected by team balance play - you can't really use xenocide as using it will force you to wait a few minutes, as most of your teammates are probably using higher lifeforms. You don't go on suicide bile rushes. You are not trying ninja runs to build ninja pg or kill upgrades, which can actually turn the game around. You don't want to sit out, so you go in defense mode to minimize your chances of dying.
Since 252, people are not really willing to replace original commander in emergencies, because they will be punished for entering base structure. Now, let's say losing team is actually trying something, they attack enemy base with two skulks, comm gets out to stop them and wham, comm is dead. And comm can't spawn. Imagine commander being at crossroads wile default spawn is flight and all the marines are pushing something. Normally, you'd spawn at flight, get back in CC and beacon or at least nano stuff. But you can't and there is nobody near CC. And if there is, they might not want to save cross at the cost of their own personal res (I had a situation like that). I've actually had to sit out for a few minutes as original commander who got killed. It doesn't balance things at all, if it was actual 6v6 game I'd spawn and did something. But it was 6v6+2, so I was forced not to take any countermeasures and watch our base die. Which is frustrating.
And no, switching teams is not an option, as you got all the intel about your team. I have a story in TF2 where I was autobalanced to other team right before we won, and as I knew all the weak spots of my original team, I abused it and turned things around with one teleporter and a sentry in the right spot. And intel doesn't really mater this much in TF2. Now imagine switching team in NS2 when you know where obs reaches and where it is not, where all the upgrades are palced, what base is totally unguarded and never gets visited...
At least make it kick in later. 8:7 match is considered balanced, but 8:6 forces two player to watch. Make it so only one player is 'autobalanced', so game goes on in 'balanced' 7:6 mode. This will lower my frustration from this feature by at least 50%.
Tl;dr, when balance kicks in, I'm changing my plans from going suicide gorge five times, which is the most fun for me, to evolving fade, which is less fun for me, because I want to actually play and not to watch how others play.
Why cant we have forced autobalance? This was all over CS and Team Fortress and worked very well but it seems like games these days refuse to employ this.
Why cant we have forced autobalance? This was all over CS and Team Fortress and worked very well but it seems like games these days refuse to employ this.
It will be pretty funny when 70% of enemy team goes to ready room and then half of your team is transfered for balance reasons.
Or when you commander logs out for a second, dies and is on other team now.
NS is about expansion and hurting your opponents economy. If you snipe some terrorists and then become a terrorist it's fine. Especially when round are no longer than few minutes.
But when you've been building, expanding, attacking and defending for ten minutes, slaying enemy RTs, killing higher lifeforms, burning their upgrades, how would you feel if you were forced to play on the team you made lose this match? You get autobalanced and you don't have any upgrades, because you were the one who destroyed them two minutes earlier. And you don't have any res to evolve, because you were the one killing RTs since first minutes.
And even if things were OK for both teams and it's just 2 guys who suddenly had to go. You are autobalanced and you know everything about other team. Scans will show you what they have, but will never tell you what they are planning in long run. And you know it, because you were with them. 'Hey guys, we were planning a gorge rush from landing pad, better get ready'.
Forced Teambalance would be the worst they can implement. I rather go specate then play against the team I spend 30 minutes to build up.
And I don't like it if something is forced on me. I like to have the choice which side I play on. There are days I don't care about, but on other days I don't like to play aliens for example. So if I got switched on such a day, I think I would leave the server (This has nothing to to with switched to the losing team! I don't mind if I win or lose, I can have fun even wile losing.)
I was annoyed by this just the other day to the point where i wanted to quit, why should we be punished for the other teams lack of players?
Quite often when this happens its for a reason, the game will end soon anyway so why not get it over with instead of annoying people, im sure theres a better way...
In this game, the correct way to handle team unbalance (amount of players not skill) is to do nothing. The game will end sooner if you aren't spawn blocking people (which is basically a way of giving the other team a chance to come back when they don't deserve it). I once won a game as aliens because half our team raged and marines got locked down to having only 4 people on the field with a comm. Once it was 4v4 we quickly expanded and took the map because unlike marines we didn't have to go around building, could just keep suiciding at marine base forcing them to sit there and defend, won the game about 5 minutes later. YEAH, BALANCE WOO!
EDIT: Forced auto balance is the worst idea ever, if I'd just ruined the other teams economy and secured the game for my team, then got swapped teams, I'd immediately leave the server, fuck that.
Forced autobalance is a joke, no player should ever be forced to switch teams halfway through a game. Particularly because that switch would probably be from the winning team to the losing team, because who ragequits when they're winning?
Likewise, the current system is silly because it essentially gives a handicap to the winning team. If one team is doing well enough to force the other team to ragequit, that team deserves to win the game. There's no need to try and maintain "balance" in a situation where one team clearly has won.
In fact if a game is stacked to the point where people are actually quitting the game instead of playing it out, it makes more sense to end that game quickly and get on to the next one, which might be more even/enjoyable. All this system does is drag out games that have already been decided by arbitrarily handicapping the winning team.
The best solution is simply to let the game finish (more players on the winning team accomplishes this faster) or to do as many servers do and have a team auto-concede if enough players leave for the ready room.
But there aren't only ragequits. It happens often enough that in midgame people leave for various reasons, when the game is definitely not decided. And for this situations the team balance mode is a very good and very needed function.
But I don't see a possibility to detect at which state the game is, and if it's a good thing to enable or not. So I think, that how the things are right now, is the lesser of evil.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
I've never been a fan of this mechanic. I would be fine with it if it slowed respawns down slightly and kept the giant banner message so that players are aware that teams are unbalanced, but given how long games of NS2 last and that players typically only leave prematurely when their team is losing it seems like a very counter-productive mechanic when one of the main problems with pub games is that they don't end in a reasonable amount of time.
Comments
Yes you are right, I forgot that. Although I'm sure some servers I have played on will force suicide on the last to join if no one dies.
Both systems suit TF2 but would be horrible in NS2.
1. Current system
2. TF2 style swap the last joined system
3. No auto-balance. Allows 8vs6 or even 8vs2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Option 4: Increased respawning speed (and eggs) for team with less players
Option 5: Decreased respawning speed for team with more players
Option 6: Similar to current system but allow for 1 man advantage. (Currently if its 6v8, 2 ppl sit out, but 7 v 8 and no one sits out)
Option 7: Increased PRES flow for team with less players
Option 8: Increased stats (any combination of: hp, regen, armor, dmg, speed, reload speed) for team with less players
Option 9: Respawning after the teams are balanced stil occurs but at a much slower rate. (6v8, the 7th and 8th will respawn at much slower rate)
List goes on...
Option 5: Decreased respawning speed for team with more players
Option 6: Similar to current system but allow for 1 man advantage. (Currently if its 6v8, 2 ppl sit out, but 7 v 8 and no one sits out)
Option 7: Increased PRES flow for team with less players
Option 8: Increased stats (any combination of: hp, regen, armor, dmg, speed, reload speed) for team with less players
Option 9: Respawning after the teams are balanced stil occurs but at a much slower rate. (6v8, the 7th and 8th will respawn at much slower rate)
List goes on...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is typically about critical massing, so the somewhat restrictive spawn time won't be of much benefit in proper games.
It would be able to have as much influence as the current process does, after all the winning team has to lose players for either to have any effect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, if a team is dominating, due to a few great/aggressive players, those players should be able to survive a lot longer than any unskilled base camper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An aggressive player is more likely to die than someone humping an armory or walking around the map where no action is going on. If you get 3 good marines in a match and one of them gets spawnlocked, this will hinder your advance and drag out the game. If aliens play it smart, they may even get a comeback like in Roobubba's story.
Shutting out players from the game is just a very bad thing to do. This is like jailbreak reversed, being locked out because you are doing well is simply not justified. The autoteambalalnce as well as the egglock system is bad design imo.
The current system reduces your ability to critical mass, slowing respawn times does not.
Sorry but it limits it the same way increasing spawn timers would on side with more (though slower than decreasing side with fewers spawn times).
Simply because neither address the fact that 1 side is up 2+ players...until someone on the winning side dies.
So the side with fewer players (aka losing side) having their respawn timer shortened would be MORE likely to influence the result and keep the game balanced as they are more likely to be dieing than the winning team.
An aggressive player is more likely to die than someone humping an armory or walking around the map where no action is going on. If you get 3 good marines in a match and one of them gets spawnlocked, this will hinder your advance and drag out the game. If aliens play it smart, they may even get a comeback like in Roobubba's story.
Shutting out players from the game is just a very bad thing to do. This is like jailbreak reversed, being locked out because you are doing well is simply not justified. The autoteambalalnce as well as the egglock system is bad design imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's just a bad way to force some balance for many reasons, people just want to play and have fun, anything that causes annoyance and the opposite of that should be removed or improved, punishing one team just because the other is a few players down is wrong and unfair, if they're down a few then it's usually just a temporary thing and if it's not well then the game should just be allowed to end because perhaps one team is simply much better than the other and it's just a game.
If they want to do it right then dynamically scale spawn time, health or weapon damage to restore a little balance temporarily but really it's just one of those things that should be accepted, if i had to choose between waiting or being on the team with a few less players id choose the team, however i won't change teams unless it's early game or the other one loses more than 3 or 4 players.
I don't remember what me or others posted here, but here's what usually happens: you are winning and some of your enemies decide to leave. It's ok if they leave server, new players will join quickly. But most of those don't want to play this particular match anymore and don't want to leave the server, so they go RR or spectators. And you can't play because THEY don't want to play. And no way this balances the game, it affects it the other way. First, it prolongs matches that people don't want to play, they actually go to RR because they want to start a new match faster, but instead they make it longer.. Second, it drastically changes the way people affected by team balance play - you can't really use xenocide as using it will force you to wait a few minutes, as most of your teammates are probably using higher lifeforms. You don't go on suicide bile rushes. You are not trying ninja runs to build ninja pg or kill upgrades, which can actually turn the game around. You don't want to sit out, so you go in defense mode to minimize your chances of dying.
Since 252, people are not really willing to replace original commander in emergencies, because they will be punished for entering base structure. Now, let's say losing team is actually trying something, they attack enemy base with two skulks, comm gets out to stop them and wham, comm is dead. And comm can't spawn. Imagine commander being at crossroads wile default spawn is flight and all the marines are pushing something. Normally, you'd spawn at flight, get back in CC and beacon or at least nano stuff. But you can't and there is nobody near CC. And if there is, they might not want to save cross at the cost of their own personal res (I had a situation like that). I've actually had to sit out for a few minutes as original commander who got killed. It doesn't balance things at all, if it was actual 6v6 game I'd spawn and did something. But it was 6v6+2, so I was forced not to take any countermeasures and watch our base die. Which is frustrating.
And no, switching teams is not an option, as you got all the intel about your team. I have a story in TF2 where I was autobalanced to other team right before we won, and as I knew all the weak spots of my original team, I abused it and turned things around with one teleporter and a sentry in the right spot. And intel doesn't really mater this much in TF2. Now imagine switching team in NS2 when you know where obs reaches and where it is not, where all the upgrades are palced, what base is totally unguarded and never gets visited...
At least make it kick in later. 8:7 match is considered balanced, but 8:6 forces two player to watch. Make it so only one player is 'autobalanced', so game goes on in 'balanced' 7:6 mode. This will lower my frustration from this feature by at least 50%.
Tl;dr, when balance kicks in, I'm changing my plans from going suicide gorge five times, which is the most fun for me, to evolving fade, which is less fun for me, because I want to actually play and not to watch how others play.
This is an amazing suggestion. "agree" with it.
It will be pretty funny when 70% of enemy team goes to ready room and then half of your team is transfered for balance reasons.
Or when you commander logs out for a second, dies and is on other team now.
NS is about expansion and hurting your opponents economy. If you snipe some terrorists and then become a terrorist it's fine. Especially when round are no longer than few minutes.
But when you've been building, expanding, attacking and defending for ten minutes, slaying enemy RTs, killing higher lifeforms, burning their upgrades, how would you feel if you were forced to play on the team you made lose this match? You get autobalanced and you don't have any upgrades, because you were the one who destroyed them two minutes earlier. And you don't have any res to evolve, because you were the one killing RTs since first minutes.
And even if things were OK for both teams and it's just 2 guys who suddenly had to go. You are autobalanced and you know everything about other team. Scans will show you what they have, but will never tell you what they are planning in long run. And you know it, because you were with them. 'Hey guys, we were planning a gorge rush from landing pad, better get ready'.
And I don't like it if something is forced on me. I like to have the choice which side I play on. There are days I don't care about, but on other days I don't like to play aliens for example. So if I got switched on such a day, I think I would leave the server (This has nothing to to with switched to the losing team! I don't mind if I win or lose, I can have fun even wile losing.)
Quite often when this happens its for a reason, the game will end soon anyway so why not get it over with instead of annoying people, im sure theres a better way...
EDIT: Forced auto balance is the worst idea ever, if I'd just ruined the other teams economy and secured the game for my team, then got swapped teams, I'd immediately leave the server, fuck that.
Forced autobalance is the worst thing ever.
Likewise, the current system is silly because it essentially gives a handicap to the winning team. If one team is doing well enough to force the other team to ragequit, that team deserves to win the game. There's no need to try and maintain "balance" in a situation where one team clearly has won.
In fact if a game is stacked to the point where people are actually quitting the game instead of playing it out, it makes more sense to end that game quickly and get on to the next one, which might be more even/enjoyable. All this system does is drag out games that have already been decided by arbitrarily handicapping the winning team.
The best solution is simply to let the game finish (more players on the winning team accomplishes this faster) or to do as many servers do and have a team auto-concede if enough players leave for the ready room.
But I don't see a possibility to detect at which state the game is, and if it's a good thing to enable or not. So I think, that how the things are right now, is the lesser of evil.
You used to keep your res when switching teams. Dunno why that was removed.
Go marine, inevitably cap 5+ res nodes, wait 4 minutes, switch teams go fade rape face.
XEEENNN!!!!
I loathe zombie threads.. >:P
If not, that's a big reason not to switch teams