<!--quoteo(post=2046547:date=Dec 16 2012, 06:46 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 16 2012, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's good that there are players out there that care about being legitimately the best at the game they play. At the same time, I wanted to point out that blizzard has made many changes in StarCraft 2 exactly for lower skilled players so the game is balanced more effectively amongst that rank. If something is completely useless at the competitive level, that alone should be indication that it needs some adjusting, weather that's adjusting to balance it at lower levels, or adjusting to make it actually viable at the highest level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very true there. the issue is and this could probably be a thing for some-one who's been in the community for a while. That Camo is a casualty at present of the meta game. That's not a bad thing its most likely that due to heavy use of shade first hive people in competitive have adapted to that approach and as yet theres not much investigation in competitive to bring the shade hive back to relevance as the present approach is very much the Starcraft 1 strategy of roughly the same plan/s and who can implement their sides first. I don't doubt once people realise how shade can be used more that it will become relevant in competitive play again. The issue again being Marines don't get a choice to counter it. with most other hives there are choices you can use but shade doesn't really offer Marines a choice of counters it simply offers one which again itself can be countered fairly effectively.
That's why against camo you just get 2 Hives as marines. Get obs, mines and PG there. So what is the advantage of camo in this scenario? Nothing! because you just cant use camo around an obs.
Wait, I know your answer "But we will never get 2 hives, skulks just kill us!!!!11 Camo skulks are better than Onos!!!11"...
Let's just wait for 1 or 2 moths how metagame evolves and then talk about camo again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you can use a Camo Lurk to get within range of the base power node and simply fire the thing down over time, stopping firing and going back into camo when you hear a Marine coming (I've done this myself before) what it does is force welders too and force people to stay at both bases repairing / hunting for you while your team rips every other RT down.
Or if the power node isn't you thing you can position to fire at the observatory, remember that thing has no armour so it will go down fairly fast. Also before you ask, yes a lurk has a larger range than an obs station
That's why against camo you just get 2 Hives as marines. Get obs, mines and PG there. So what is the advantage of camo in this scenario? Nothing! because you just cant use camo around an obs.
Wait, I know your answer "But we will never get 2 hives, skulks just kill us!!!!11 Camo skulks are better than Onos!!!11"...
Let's just wait for 1 or 2 moths how metagame evolves and then talk about camo again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good job with your reading comprehension... I specifically said camo skulks are not for attacking main bases they are for denying marine expansion. I also never said camo skulks are better than onos. I clearly said camo skulks allow you to ignore going lerk and fade and cause an onos avalanche that marines can't defend against. Now please if you want to actually discuss things be my guess, but stop acting like a ######.
<!--quoteo(post=2046659:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Dec 16 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good job with your reading comprehension... I specifically said camo skulks are not for attacking main bases they are for denying marine expansion. I also never said camo skulks are better than onos. I clearly said camo skulks allow you to ignore going lerk and fade and cause an onos avalanche that marines can't defend against. Now please if you want to actually discuss things be my guess, but stop acting like a ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I know what you said. You are right. But it does not matter in this case. Because the counter to camo is to not wildly expand. Yout just take 2 hives.
It's like if you have a sniper rifle and your opponent has a shotgun. You can choose to fight in a) apartment building or b) open field with several vantage points.
What would you choose? (hint: Most NS2 Marines would choose the apartment building)
I tried some serious discussion pages ago. But obviously camop is so op that no valid argument changes the opinion of you guys. So I don't really see the point of these threads anymore.
I'm really pissed off by this stupid camo discussion. Why? Because Aliens ARE OP. But not because of camo! Over this whole camo ###### nobody talks about the real reasons why marines loose so many games. Camo will either be nerfed or players will lern to cope with it. But then there still will be the problem of Aliens bein too strong. So at the moment we waste energy and maybe time the devs could spent on useful things over an completely exaggerated problem.
First thing's first, I didn't say you can't play this game casually. I said that you can't balance a competitive game casually, see Dota. You balance for competitive play, and this makes pub games more competitive. People learn from better players, to say that they don't is ludicrous. Give it time.
Yes, Shade Skulks are very powerful, but the rest of your lifeforms are noticeably weaker in comparison to what they could be. This is no cause for alarm, though. Shade hive's power lies in defensive playstyle, which correlates well to Alien playstyle which is also defensive in the early stages of the game. The problem here is that it's almost like you're looking at competitive Alien players play, and comparing them to playing against pub Marines.
Good marines will notice that you have went Shade first, and will pressure your hive until it goes down. You don't need to expand to a 2nd Comm station as early, although I'll admit that most pub players will do this without a thought. Once again, this is not Aliens showcasing how imba they are, this is showcasing how bad decisions are punished, and how blindly expanding without proper information is characteristic of poor marine play.
I'm also not saying that other upgrades are ALWAYS going to be better than Shade's. I'm simply saying that the window for marines to break in and take a massive lead is larger than it is with other hives. Other hives you can come back with some higher lifeforms like Fades/Lerks and do something earlier. Then theres the fact that Shade Hive is the ONLY hive that is hardcountered by marine skills/tools.
You don't NEED Shade hive to play defensive. You can avoid detection by walking and good positioning, which is the only thing Shade gives you. At least once Observatories go up you have something to help you at ALL times and ALL phases of the game if you don't go Shade. It's even worse in pubs where you can easily see 30 or more mines placed all over the map to give marines even more cushion. These mines will destroy Aliens with no Celerity or Carapace.
You have to admit its a little stupid to be calling for fixes because the only hive that is hardcountered by marines is op. Especially since the game hasn't been out that long. Like I'm sure it has been said before now: Shade is not the reason Aliens are winning more games.
Shrimm- It sounds to me like you're playing against a lot of bad players. If you live in NA, feel free to add me as a buddy I'll get you into some good games, bro.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First thing's first, I didn't say you can't play this game casually. I said that you can't balance a competitive game casually, see Dota. You balance for competitive play, and this makes pub games more competitive. People learn from better players, to say that they don't is ludicrous. Give it time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually when something is presently killed due to the meta game in competitive it makes no sense to refuse to fix it when its only being seen in pubs and its pubs that's being affected. Expect Shade to make one hell of a meta game comeback in the future. Also as competitive so far is different to pub due to player numbers it means at present the pub and comp games are almost two different ones.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, Shade Skulks are very powerful, but the rest of your lifeforms are noticeably weaker in comparison to what they could be. This is no cause for alarm, though. Shade hive's power lies in defensive playstyle, which correlates well to Alien playstyle which is also defensive in the early stages of the game. The problem here is that it's almost like you're looking at competitive Alien players play, and comparing them to playing against pub Marines.
Good marines will notice that you have went Shade first, and will pressure your hive until it goes down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If they can find it. Again a comp alien commander will have shaded the hive and if they are good faked their expansion so marines who come from the main 2-3 points you can attack from will see infestation between two possible hive locations. With shade up you can hide your hide and force them to check all 3 locations, during which its pretty easy to pick them off or slow for them to move as a group. or expensive due to them having to waste an extra scan on your hive to find it
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need to expand to a 2nd Comm station as early, although I'll admit that most pub players will do this without a thought. Once again, this is not Aliens showcasing how imba they are, this is showcasing how bad decisions are punished, and how blindly expanding without proper information is characteristic of poor marine play.
I'm also not saying that other upgrades are ALWAYS going to be better than Shade's. I'm simply saying that the window for marines to break in and take a massive lead is larger than it is with other hives. Other hives you can come back with some higher lifeforms like Fades/Lerks and do something earlier. Then theres the fact that Shade Hive is the ONLY hive that is hardcountered by marine skills/tools.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again its not. infact camo is closer to being a hard counter itself as it provides a permanent extra which marines have to constantly spend resources to counter.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't NEED Shade hive to play defensive. You can avoid detection by walking and good positioning, which is the only thing Shade gives you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True to an extent however Shade lets you be more blatant and removes the need to be able to hit that perfect bite as you drop from the ceiling cover also the misdirection abilities of hallucination really are overlooked at present. I mean being able to fake your hive position and force the enemy into attacking the wrong place ? That's useful.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At least once Observatories go up you have something to help you at ALL times and ALL phases of the game if you don't go Shade. It's even worse in pubs where you can easily see 30 or more mines placed all over the map to give marines even more cushion. These mines will destroy Aliens with no Celerity or Carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually again not as unless you're being stupid even a skulk with patience can remove Mines on walls or just avoid them by climbing in the thing you're destroying and as such be above the mines.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have to admit its a little stupid to be calling for fixes because the only hive that is hardcountered by marines is op. Especially since the game hasn't been out that long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again unless I'm mistaken its not a hard counter if you force them into expending considerable more resources than it took you to begin the play. As both have the same initial set up only stealth costs nothing beyond it to keep up but per scan its 3 resources. Populate a fake hive and have your team defend it, say 16 resources or more.
having Marines attack you and scan every location 9 to locate the hive, then around 12 more to attack it. And this is an absolute hive rush with no delays such as phase gating or setting up the power nodes and the enemy commander has no defences up at all and no hidden whips or gorges who have set up defences. You can actually force the game longer and if they rush you, you can rush them in return.
Bro, shading your hive in a pub doesn't do ######. That's part of my point. Its still painfully obvious where your hive is after the first encounter with the enemy team. You're going to fake a hive? By using hallucinations? GG Scan.
Marines can put up RTs faster than aliens can, and as such can use the extra res to counter camo if they need to. Your idea of balance is just not that good. This is the exact same argument that pub players make in Dota that invis is op because it forces the opposing team to spend money in detection. Spending money in detection is only going to net you an advantage anyway you cut it, and that goes for both games. Unless you ######ing blow.
Of course Shade will make a huge comeback in the future. If they bring back Feign Death... definitely don't doubt it, and we'll be hearing crying over that ability as well. You give entirely too much credit to hallucinations as they are now. They're actually extremely weak against any competent team, even in a pub.
I'm not sure what it is with all these new players crying about camo. It was never an issue in beta. In fact most players cried about how crappy Shade was. It wasn't until all of these new players came post release that camo was a "problem." You know why? Because you're just not that good. In fact, one might even say you're pretty crappy, if you're one of these new players. If you were playing in beta and still hold true to your stance, then that's your opinion, and I respect the fact that you have one. Just so happens you're wrong. :)
Camo is a risk/reward hive. The damage you do with camo has to be significantly more than that you would do with another upgrade. If it only allows you to get a couple extra extractors then you're actually behind since, once the game goes in to the mid game, shade is considerably weaker for higher lifeforms than the crag/shift combo. For this reason you should almost never make your <u>second</u> hive a shade hive unless you plan on executing an all in or ninja a third. Good teams will need to expend additional resources to counter camo, but if effective the aliens are at a huge disadvantage.
The game has gotten to the point where nearly everyone curious about commanding has tried it out and decided if it's for them or not. As time goes on, you'll see more effective commanders in public games and with that the camoGG won't be so prevalent.
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bro, shading your hive in a pub doesn't do ######. That's part of my point. Its still painfully obvious where your hive is after the first encounter with the enemy team. You're going to fake a hive? By using hallucinations? GG Scan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depends where the engagement is in a lot of pub games unless you're ambushed by 5 people in one go right outside the base then its not that simple to tell.
Also with the fake hive you have to ask if the commander would use a scan considering it costs resources so why spend them why you have a Marine who can see the enemy base ?
At present hallucination is not used much so its questionable how many know about it or would remember about it. you could simply ink to hide that its a fake or replace it etc. either way you're forcing them to use their resources.
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines can put up RTs faster than aliens can, and as such can use the extra res to counter camo if they need to. Your idea of balance is just not that good.
This is the exact same argument that pub players make in Dota that invis is op because it forces the opposing team to spend money in detection. Spending money in detection is only going to net you an advantage anyway you cut it, and that goes for both games. Unless you ######ing blow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> again you can counter this and force the enemy to blow it and use this knowledge against them. How good is it when you blew your detection on a fake because you thought the enemy made a mistake themselves ? Its also not good when the enemy uses this against you to cost you time
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course Shade will make a huge comeback in the future. If they bring back Feign Death... definitely don't doubt it, and we'll be hearing crying over that ability as well. You give entirely too much credit to hallucinations as they are now. They're actually extremely weak against any competent team, even in a pub.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Any as they are used so rarely and not used much to create traps. This game is new and oddly shade seems to be one of the deepest specialisations that hasn't been explored.
I dunno as I never saw Feign death before however it feign death's return just causes the enemy to look dead it will mean I simply put one more bullet into the enemy.
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure what it is with all these new players crying about camo. It was never an issue in beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it was a closed or fairly closed Beta then that's your answer. Public vs people doing it for good / fair play / to test the game often down find these things or ways to create advantages. In Beta people don't tend to spend 15 hours jumping at a wall in different spots at different angles when released people will to see if it gets them an advantage (Heck someone has found a way out of one map already)
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact most players cried about how crappy Shade was. It wasn't until all of these new players came post release that camo was a "problem." You know why?
Because you're just not that good. In fact, one might even say you're pretty crappy, if you're one of these new players. If you were playing in beta and still hold true to your stance, then that's your opinion, and I respect the fact that you have one. Just so happens you're wrong. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're going to play the elitist card of "I was here in the beginning if you weren't then I give you no credence".
Its kind of strange you're pointing at me as an individual when I am not my team. Nor am I the commander. Camo relies heavily on your commander to counter, not you, your commander as good skulks with camo will be ready to ambush you, short of firing off ammo the whole time you won't uncover them until they decide to attack. while Camo being used on you relies more on the enemy team. Ok their commander can play some nasty tricks to counter you, however the issue is for Aliens its personal skill for the Marines your skill will not save you as the Aliens will be right on you and short of wasting ammo you have no way to know they are there until its too late.
This is a pretty good idea to fix an (obviously) broken pub mechanic. Another good idea I believe is to make skulk have an uncloaking animation first before they can attack, sort of like Team Fortress 2 Spys. You can easily balance this by tweaking the length of the animation.
That's why against camo you just get 2 Hives as marines. Get obs, mines and PG there. So what is the advantage of camo in this scenario? Nothing! because you just cant use camo around an obs.
Wait, I know your answer "But we will never get 2 hives, skulks just kill us!!!!11 Camo skulks are better than Onos!!!11"...
Let's just wait for 1 or 2 moths how metagame evolves and then talk about camo again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like how I suggest this as a good strat against camo and 1 page later it's *the* way to counter camo. Previously "scanning" was the camo counter. I just wish we could get some unbiased opinions on this, because on EU servers camo seems to be the 9/10 time win strat, while in magical la-la land camo is horrible skulks are caught pants down (they don't have pants) by scan and marines always win. There's gotta be the middle ground somewhere.
<!--quoteo(post=2046780:date=Dec 16 2012, 07:32 PM:name=AFireInAsa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AFireInAsa @ Dec 16 2012, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a pretty good idea to fix an (obviously) broken pub mechanic. Another good idea I believe is to make skulk have an uncloaking animation first before they can attack, sort of like Team Fortress 2 Spys. You can easily balance this by tweaking the length of the animation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the only minor issue with that is at present you can decloak instantly by jumping so most skulk players will just jump like that to decloak instead
<!--quoteo(post=2046765:date=Dec 16 2012, 11:13 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 16 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It depends where the engagement is in a lot of pub games unless you're ambushed by 5 people in one go right outside the base then its not that simple to tell.
Also with the fake hive you have to ask if the commander would use a scan considering it costs resources so why spend them why you have a Marine who can see the enemy base ?
At present hallucination is not used much so its questionable how many know about it or would remember about it. you could simply ink to hide that its a fake or replace it etc. either way you're forcing them to use their resources.
again you can counter this and force the enemy to blow it and use this knowledge against them. How good is it when you blew your detection on a fake because you thought the enemy made a mistake themselves ? Its also not good when the enemy uses this against you to cost you time
Any as they are used so rarely and not used much to create traps. This game is new and oddly shade seems to be one of the deepest specialisations that hasn't been explored.
I dunno as I never saw Feign death before however it feign death's return just causes the enemy to look dead it will mean I simply put one more bullet into the enemy.
If it was a closed or fairly closed Beta then that's your answer. Public vs people doing it for good / fair play / to test the game often down find these things or ways to create advantages. In Beta people don't tend to spend 15 hours jumping at a wall in different spots at different angles when released people will to see if it gets them an advantage (Heck someone has found a way out of one map already)
So you're going to play the elitist card of "I was here in the beginning if you weren't then I give you no credence".
Its kind of strange you're pointing at me as an individual when I am not my team. Nor am I the commander. Camo relies heavily on your commander to counter, not you, your commander as good skulks with camo will be ready to ambush you, short of firing off ammo the whole time you won't uncover them until they decide to attack. while Camo being used on you relies more on the enemy team. Ok their commander can play some nasty tricks to counter you, however the issue is for Aliens its personal skill for the Marines your skill will not save you as the Aliens will be right on you and short of wasting ammo you have no way to know they are there until its too late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize Marines can build more than one observatory? You don't need to waste res on scans at all. You simply put an Obs up at a point you want to protect, and you protect it. You make it seem like the commander should have little to no involvement in the outcome of the game other than just deciding what structures and upgrades to get. I don't blame you, you're obviously new since your feathers got a little ruffled when I played the "elitist card", when in reality all I was doing was stating the truth that you don't have ample experience to realize what it is you're saying. It's understandable, we were all new at one point, and the more you argue, the more obvious it is that you just need to chill and learn the game some more.
There are a lot of things Marines can do to really mess with the aliens, you just aren't aware of them yet. In time you(along with a lot of other players) will realize that the commander really needs to do more than just build random structures and scan random rooms. Structure placement is a HUGE part of the game, and this includes Observatories along with Armories to create choke points. Please, gain some more experience before you make threads like this. I'll leave it at that; I'm not here to teach you how to play.
<!--quoteo(post=2046784:date=Dec 16 2012, 08:44 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Dec 16 2012, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how I suggest this as a good strat against camo and 1 page later it's *the* way to counter camo. Previously "scanning" was the camo counter. I just wish we could get some unbiased opinions on this, because on EU servers camo seems to be the 9/10 time win strat, while in magical la-la land camo is horrible skulks are caught pants down (they don't have pants) by scan and marines always win. There's gotta be the middle ground somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, I think already I posted this on like page 2 or something. Also I base my knowledge on the experiance I have with camo which mainly stems from games on YOclan server. More than 90% of all shade first games I can remember were won by marines by locking 2 Hives the way I described. And of course there was also scanning involved ;) I DO realize, that this particular server I almost exclusively play on may be frequented by more experianced players than other servers.
So I do not generally disagree to adjust Camo somehow to improve the fun factor for new players. What I oppose strongly is the absurd focus on the camo as "the problem" we have here right now.
Generally most balance problems often are reduced to l2p. I think this is wrong in many cases, because players improve their skill on both marines and aliens. Camo however is one of the few cases where this is not true. There is not much room for improvement for camo skulks. Sure, being ultrapassive is a problem for noobs with camo, but once you start to use camo offensively there is really not much room to improve. On the other hands marines can but only learn to handle camo better. This leads to the conclusion that marines will learn to handle camo fairly quickly and from this point it wont be that winbutton anymore.
So I think we should rather focus more on thinking about how to balance the game in general than to waste energy on a problem that will be fixed by metagame sooner or later.
Also I think the people complaining so much about camo should realize and acknowledge that camo is indeed beatable. I just think its bad attitude to blow this camo topic that much out of proportion. I mean at the worst times there are 3 or 4 topics about camo on page 1 and everybody saying that camo is indeed beatable is regarded as a condescending ass ...
<!--quoteo(post=2047097:date=Dec 17 2012, 12:50 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 17 2012, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look, I think already I posted this on like page 2 or something. Also I base my knowledge on the experiance I have with camo which mainly stems from games on YOclan server. More than 90% of all shade first games I can remember were won by marines by locking 2 Hives the way I described. And of course there was also scanning involved ;) I DO realize, that this particular server I almost exclusively play on may be frequented by more experianced players than other servers.
So I do not generally disagree to adjust Camo somehow to improve the fun factor for new players. What I oppose strongly is the absurd focus on the camo as "the problem" we have here right now.
Generally most balance problems often are reduced to l2p. I think this is wrong in many cases, because players improve their skill on both marines and aliens. Camo however is one of the few cases where this is not true. There is not much room for improvement for camo skulks. Sure, being ultrapassive is a problem for noobs with camo, but once you start to use camo offensively there is really not much room to improve. On the other hands marines can but only learn to handle camo better. This leads to the conclusion that marines will learn to handle camo fairly quickly and from this point it wont be that winbutton anymore.
So I think we should rather focus more on thinking about how to balance the game in general than to waste energy on a problem that will be fixed by metagame sooner or later.
Also I think the people complaining so much about camo should realize and acknowledge that camo is indeed beatable. I just think its bad attitude to blow this camo topic that much out of proportion. I mean at the worst times there are 3 or 4 topics about camo on page 1 and everybody saying that camo is indeed beatable is regarded as a condescending ass ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the problem is look at the other two tech trees for aliens. At present Crags are used and shifts are used mostly to their potential except people failing to use shift Echo much. At present though shade abilities are rarely used beyond the initial passive of the shade shroom cloaking things. In terms of the meta game shade is already being pointed out as a problem with people using very little of its true depth. Shade hive used well would need a very much hands on approach from an alien commander which doesn't happen, however you can still get a win from team ability alone. In terms of the meta game someone going to get good at shade and while at present its possible to counter when about 1/2 of its potential is in use compared to the other tech trees with Crag hives having at present 100% of their potential used and shift hives having 75% of its potential used regularly.
The fact people are pointing out there's a problem when most enemy commander will use 25-50% of the shade hives potential with the rare commander managing 75% (as in I've seen it used once effectively).
Camo is beatable but the thing is at what cost ? Essentially you have to fire off resources quite a lot and Marines have to sacrifice part of their end game power essentially or delay it further.
To counter Camo you have to Spend resources regularly as in a room by room bases or even more often. Sacrifice going for resource points yourself / accept losing them and running on maybe 2 resource points 3 if you're lucky. Camo at present doesn't balance out, it really doesn't as to counter it you get screwed over twice essentially first with the need to scan so often and second by not being able to make up for this extra expense with more RT points. You can say oh but enemies are weaker they don't get to move faster so dodge better or the extra protection of carapace. It doesn't matter Marines will have a harder time getting the upgrades due to having to cut back on spending to allow for regular scanning.
<!--quoteo(post=2047106:date=Dec 17 2012, 02:32 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 17 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem is look at the other two tech trees for aliens. At present Crags are used and shifts are used mostly to their potential except people failing to use shift Echo much. At present though shade abilities are rarely used beyond the initial passive of the shade shroom cloaking things. In terms of the meta game shade is already being pointed out as a problem with people using very little of its true depth. Shade hive used well would need a very much hands on approach from an alien commander which doesn't happen, however you can still get a win from team ability alone. In terms of the meta game someone going to get good at shade and while at present its possible to counter when about 1/2 of its potential is in use compared to the other tech trees with Crag hives having at present 100% of their potential used and shift hives having 75% of its potential used regularly.
The fact people are pointing out there's a problem when most enemy commander will use 25-50% of the shade hives potential with the rare commander managing 75% (as in I've seen it used once effectively).
Camo is beatable but the thing is at what cost ? Essentially you have to fire off resources quite a lot and Marines have to sacrifice part of their end game power essentially or delay it further.
To counter Camo you have to Spend resources regularly as in a room by room bases or even more often. Sacrifice going for resource points yourself / accept losing them and running on maybe 2 resource points 3 if you're lucky. Camo at present doesn't balance out, it really doesn't as to counter it you get screwed over twice essentially first with the need to scan so often and second by not being able to make up for this extra expense with more RT points. You can say oh but enemies are weaker they don't get to move faster so dodge better or the extra protection of carapace. It doesn't matter Marines will have a harder time getting the upgrades due to having to cut back on spending to allow for regular scanning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is valid to say that camo also is not used to its fullest potential. It would indeed be interesting to play with a good comm against a good kahmm goin shade first.
About camo costing marines res at the beginning: While this is true, It is not really that much of a problem as most people think. Because of the lack of cara/cele you dont need weapon/armor upgrades quite as fast as against a crag/shift combo because especially higher lifeforms are considerably weaker. Also you dont need that much scans anymore once you have established bases with obs at both hives(which you would do anyway, you just get the obs earlier) Marines dont neccessarily need scans to harass rts. Sure, they will die but if I die 5 or 6 times and in the process kill a rt and maybe two or three skulks thats worth it. Once you got 2 Hives locked down the pressure on your rts also get reduced alot because Aliens will know that they HAVE to attack your hives. E.g. two days ago we played against shade on tram. We rushed repair, got a Obs+PG and then rushed elevator and got Obs+PG there. After that we lost repair but managed to get it back with the help of scans. So from this moment we just defended and ran suicide missions to ore and mezz to just kill the rts. This led to 10 hard minutes where we had to jump from hive to hive to defend yet another alien attack, while trying to get rts down. But on the other hand we had 3 rts at tech points + observation and logistics. The two rts outside of the hives were attacked occasionally but because of the pressure we put on, it was not that much and after all a skulk eating a rt is not cloaked so its fairly easy to kill. So we had 3-5 rts all the time which is not bad at all. Of course the map layout of tram plays into this strategy. After defending and nearly losing the hives for several times our upgrades kicked in and from this moment forward aliens had noch chance because the lack of shift/crag combo and we won fairly easy.
What Im trying to say is that you cant translate the "few rts because shade" into "few rts against shift/crag" as the shade hive shifts the upgrade dynamic for both teams. Shade first puts significantly more focus on tech points where a normal shift/crag opening is more about securing/denying rts.
<!--quoteo(post=2046850:date=Dec 16 2012, 10:59 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do realize Marines can build more than one observatory? You don't need to waste res on scans at all. You simply put an Obs up at a point you want to protect, and you protect it. You make it seem like the commander should have little to no involvement in the outcome of the game other than just deciding what structures and upgrades to get. I don't blame you, you're obviously new since your feathers got a little ruffled when I played the "elitist card", when in reality all I was doing was stating the truth that you don't have ample experience to realize what it is you're saying. It's understandable, we were all new at one point, and the more you argue, the more obvious it is that you just need to chill and learn the game some more.
There are a lot of things Marines can do to really mess with the aliens, you just aren't aware of them yet. In time you(along with a lot of other players) will realize that the commander really needs to do more than just build random structures and scan random rooms. Structure placement is a HUGE part of the game, and this includes Observatories along with Armories to create choke points. Please, gain some more experience before you make threads like this. I'll leave it at that; I'm not here to teach you how to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So to counter the fake hive the solution is to spend the time to build an Obs there ? Sure an obs helps on defence however as has been said before. Offence is better in NS2. to defend every location such as harvesters it would require putting one of the more vulnerable structures up in an area which the aliens can easily access. Its not great move.
Also even if I weren't new I'd still have gotten onto you about that elitist comment.
Sorry but while some things can be passed off as "Oh he's new he doesn't get it" some things like how little shade hives are used to their full potential are rather obvious to see.
I get choke points etc however setting the easiest to kill structure in the open isn't that great in terms of a move believe me that's RTS FPS 101 which anyone from 2142 will tell you. for an obs to be worth it you'd have to have that choke point locked down and one thing with most choke points is they don't fall that near the power node for that area. That's essentially the Aliens way to break any choke attempt if bile bomb won't cut it.
<!--quoteo(post=2047160:date=Dec 17 2012, 04:42 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 17 2012, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is valid to say that camo also is not used to its fullest potential. It would indeed be interesting to play with a good comm against a good kahmm goin shade first.
What Im trying to say is that you cant translate the "few rts because shade" into "few rts against shift/crag" as the shade hive shifts the upgrade dynamic for both teams. Shade first puts significantly more focus on tech points where a normal shift/crag opening is more about securing/denying rts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will give you that as true however the aliens only need to hold out until they have say 3 pres Onos ready to go then its simply a case of use them to rush one point and try to force a beacon, then with them there you have the rest of your forces target the power in one of the other bases. As you can't see the Onos coming due to the cloak then the attack can't be predicted. At best you lose one base either due to fighting the Onos and not the fade / skulks or at worst both as you get moved by the commander before you could kill the Onos costing that base and arrive just too late to save the power from the fade + skulks.
Also the aliens can Turtle attack your base with either Crags or celerity. crags letting the Onos switch out and heal near by and Celerity etc letting Onos retreat quick and Gorges act as healing stations for them a distance away from the main battle.
the strategy you used worked partly because that's completely unexpected. Aliens commander wouldn't expect you to suicide run he'd be expecting group movement and probably didn't split his own forces well enough to deal with it, which can be done with stealth. Its a well played move I'll give you that but I wouldn't anticipate it working for long as the meta game will evolve to deal with it too as Cloak can let the aliens do.
If you want to know why no one uses Ink, it's because you've got to grow a cyst chain to where you want it, build the shade, wait for it to mature, and <i>know</i> when the Marines commander is going to scan. He'll probably get at least one without ink up, and that's more than enough time to uncloak and kill several skulks with several Marines. Or, kill the Shade itself if you're up against <i>good</i> Marines. Ink doesn't negate a scan that's already going, just the follow up scans.
I'm not saying that a well-used ink right after a scan is necessarily <i>bad</i>, but it's not as useful as everyone keeps trying to make it out to be. It's <i>something</i> the Alien commander can do, but like every other direct thing the Alien Comm can do it isn't much even if you micro the hell out of it.
I think a lot of people are over thinking it trying to make excuses about why they get owned all the time by the Aliens. I still don't care if they nerf it, and I guarantee right after any nerf they'll be complaining about celerity skulks having too much map control early game. (Or some other BS reason to explain away why they lose a lot.)
<!--quoteo(post=2047386:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heck, I can't believe this thread is still going.
If you want to know why no one uses Ink, it's because you've got to grow a cyst chain to where you want it, build the shade, wait for it to mature, and <i>know</i> when the Marines commander is going to scan. He'll probably get at least one without ink up, and that's more than enough time to uncloak and kill several skulks with several Marines. Or, kill the Shade itself if you're up against <i>good</i> Marines. Ink doesn't negate a scan that's already going, just the follow up scans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hence you don't do silly things like put a shade right out in the middle of the room for everyone to see and enjoy killing.
<!--quoteo(post=2047386:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not saying that a well-used ink right after a scan is necessarily <i>bad</i>, but it's not as useful as everyone keeps trying to make it out to be. It's <i>something</i> the Alien commander can do, but like every other direct thing the Alien Comm can do it isn't much even if you micro the hell out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So wait its a legitimate counter for the marine commander to have to sit and babysit his squad scanning each room for them. But its not if the Alien commander has to sit and press to fire off Ink ? And before you say on but you scan a room and pick up all the aliens while Ink won't hide them all. Well that's why you hang back a bit as Aliens and rush the room once the Marines think its clear.
<!--quoteo(post=2047386:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a lot of people are over thinking it trying to make excuses about why they get owned all the time by the Aliens. I still don't care if they nerf it, and I guarantee right after any nerf they'll be complaining about celerity skulks having too much map control early game. (Or some other BS reason to explain away why they lose a lot.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Celerity skulks = I can still shoot the damn thing before it gets an attack in on me, also to use it fully you make plenty of noise unless you combine with silence. celerity is a convenience thing mostly and maybe a hand to help you avoid being shot / taking so much damage while attacking / escaping. Hence there's no complaints about it. Camo a good skulk can get 75 damage on me before I have chance to see and shoot him unless I'm getting my commander to spam scans the whole time.
<!--quoteo(post=2047386:date=Dec 17 2012, 09:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 17 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a lot of people are over thinking it trying to make excuses about why they get owned all the time by the Aliens. I still don't care if they nerf it, and I guarantee right after any nerf they'll be complaining about celerity skulks having too much map control early game. (Or some other BS reason to explain away why they lose a lot.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny because I mainly play alien.. Camo is not fun to play against or with. It is boring, repetitive, and easy. There worst part of camo though is you're team is pretty much guaranteed to win, every game plays out nearly the same.
<!--quoteo(post=2047404:date=Dec 17 2012, 09:08 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 17 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence you don't do silly things like put a shade right out in the middle of the room for everyone to see and enjoy killing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, if you're counting on me being as big of a noob as you you're in for some disappointment. How many hours of commanding <i>do</i> you have, while we're talking about it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So wait its a legitimate counter for the marine commander to have to sit and babysit his squad scanning each room for them. But its not if the Alien commander has to sit and press to fire off Ink ? And before you say on but you scan a room and pick up all the aliens while Ink won't hide them all. Well that's why you hang back a bit as Aliens and rush the room once the Marines think its clear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a legitimate enough counter if you're talking about Marines assaulting an already secured Hive, I guess. At least if the Marines don't wipe the floor with your crappy slow arse skulks anyway. Why the Marines would <i>do</i> such a thing is really the question, since at the start of the game it seems like they should be securing <i>unsecured</i> tech points but hey we're talking the best Aliens team in the world versus total n00bs right? They don't know any better, so any argument can work with that being your central premise.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Celerity skulks = I can still shoot the damn thing before it gets an attack in on me, also to use it fully you make plenty of noise unless you combine with silence. celerity is a convenience thing mostly and maybe a hand to help you avoid being shot / taking so much damage while attacking / escaping. Hence there's no complaints about it. Camo a good skulk can get 75 damage on me before I have chance to see and shoot him unless I'm getting my commander to spam scans the whole time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scan has a duration, target highlighting, and if you need more than one you're a bad enough shot to not hit a celerity skulk in the first place. Therefore I foresee your return to complain about early map control Celerity skulks a week or two after any possible Camo nerfs. Probably in relation to your IP's being taken out repeatedly at the start of a game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny because I mainly play alien.. Camo is not fun to play against or with. It is boring, repetitive, and easy. There worst part of camo though is you're team is pretty much guaranteed to win, every game plays out nearly the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree it isn't fun to play <i>with</i> Camo, but against it is great. I mean, most times Marines are clueless and give laughable resistance even <i>without</i> camo. The worst part about Camo? It lulls people into a false sense of security since they attribute all their wins to an upgrade, rather than a clueless other team.
? How to beat camo is pretty simple. Push the aliens hive in a marine ball and egg lock them then kill hive. If you cant scan and your team can't kill unupgraded skulks when they know exactly where they are, then you had no chance at the start. Shooting scanned camo skulks is way easier then no-scanned celerity or carapace skulks. Having no shift means no extra eggs when you push their hive. No crags means the hive stays low unless they gorge. Low eggs + gorge players means if you die, as long as you didn't suck beyond reason then you do another marine ball+scan push and this time they have less players, lower hive health, and fewer eggs so you should get them. camo is nice on camo/adren gorges for rapid double/triple gorge base bombs. Its ok on skulks, and almost useless on other aliens at least relatively speaking. Mines are a nice soft counter to cloak, since they can hammer skulks, obs are ok but expensive if you expand quickly. Lerks are good against mines, but cloak is practically useless on them. Usually Obs at techpoints, mines are enough for non - techpoint res. People complain about map control. If they are cloaked they are moving slow so how are they maintaining control over the map, and why aren't you pushing their hive killing their eggs making them run at you? If you know they are all over the map, then you know you can marine ball their base.
<!--quoteo(post=2047439:date=Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh, if you're counting on me being as big of a noob as you you're in for some disappointment. How many hours of commanding <i>do</i> you have, while we're talking about it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1 hour NS2 commanding 27 hours 2142 commanding (Before someone throws this out the mechanics are pretty damn similar only with less economic balancing and more squad directing)
<!--quoteo(post=2047439:date=Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a legitimate enough counter if you're talking about Marines assaulting an already secured Hive, I guess. At least if the Marines don't wipe the floor with your crappy slow arse skulks anyway. Why the Marines would <i>do</i> such a thing is really the question, since at the start of the game it seems like they should be securing <i>unsecured</i> tech points but hey we're talking the best Aliens team in the world versus total n00bs right? They don't know any better, so any argument can work with that being your central premise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So how exactly do the Marines know the tech point isn't compromised ? Oh yeh they look and see no infestation. What can shades do ? Hide infestation.
Pretty simple thing there as its forcing their com to scan in case its there.
Also Marines get the tech point and lose most of their RT points. Now Marines are stuck with very few RT points and two Tech points. Aliens only need to go after a tech point the Marines haven't got and suddenly its 3 hives. Also you seem to lack the understanding of how lethal a well played skulk is. 3 bites and your down, they can also get point blank thanks to camo and get that first bite for free now.
<!--quoteo(post=2047439:date=Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scan has a duration, target highlighting, and if you need more than one you're a bad enough shot to not hit a celerity skulk in the first place. Therefore I foresee your return to complain about early map control Celerity skulks a week or two after any possible Camo nerfs. Probably in relation to your IP's being taken out repeatedly at the start of a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if a Skulk stood there and let you shoot them that easily they're a terrible skulk.
IPs at the start of the game ? Please Marines can hive rush and egg camp the aliens just as easily easily game
I love the level of elitism going on here right now. What next you want to know my rank in NS2 <!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->Yes I know NS2 has no ranks durr<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Or will it be how long I've been gaming ?
<!--quoteo(post=2047442:date=Dec 18 2012, 04:49 AM:name=Zaphrous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zaphrous @ Dec 18 2012, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they are cloaked they are moving slow so how are they maintaining control over the map, and why aren't you pushing their hive killing their eggs making them run at you? If you know they are all over the map, then you know you can marine ball their base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do know they don't have to stay cloaked right ? you can run then restore cloak closer to where you need to be.
also you don't know they're all over the map, with a Camo team you could have all of 3 skulks harassing your RTs on the map while the rest simply base rush you or force you to constantly turtle in your base with them being able to turtle essentially just outside of your base. using their Camo to hide just out of obs range and attack you there.
<!--quoteo(post=2047452:date=Dec 17 2012, 11:16 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 17 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 hour NS2 commanding 27 hours 2142 commanding (Before someone throws this out the mechanics are pretty damn similar only with less economic balancing and more squad directing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've commanded roughly 130 hours of NS2 as both Aliens and Marines (although less Marines, I'll admit.) I also 'commanded' in BF2142, and it was absolutely nothing at all like NS2 beyond the top down view.
You can read through my replies on this and other Camo topics and find out that nerfing Camo won't do a darn thing to help out n00b Marines. They get face rolled because being Marines commander is hard, while being Aliens commander is easy. That carries it's way on down to the individual players on each team. Something as simple as putting out five drifters after building a second hive can keep Marines from holding even two RT's for enough time to profit by them.
If you nerf Camo, it makes n00b Alien commanders use a build order that will still roflstomp n00bs while being even better mid and late game than Camo could ever hope for. Camo first nerfs your entire team in a hope for a quick win. If you don't get the quick win, and if Marines get that second tech point while denying harvesters, you'll lose just like in any other game. Is it worth 3 of your T.Res to take out a harvester on the other team? You bet your BF2142 it is.
If you keep the pressure up at several locations, the aliens won't have <i>time</i> to screw with your RT's, they'll be too busy trying to defend theirs with camo versus <i>one scan</i> in the area. Unless, of course, like others you will always magically have a shade nearby with pre-deployed ink. Even near mid-map Harvesters. (This, by the way, means their commander wasted almost <i>all</i> off his teams T.Res on easily killed junk, by the way.)
I want you to keep playing and commanding, just understand that you have one heck of a higher learning curve on Marine Commanding than anything you've ever seen before in a FPS/RTS hybrid. It is quite probably the hardest thing in NS2. (Aiming might be a close second, or even number one. Depends who you ask.)
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've commanded roughly 130 hours of NS2 as both Aliens and Marines (although less Marines, I'll admit.) I also 'commanded' in BF2142, and it was absolutely nothing at all like NS2 beyond the top down view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tactics don't change. The fact you implied shades would be easily taken down by Marines is kind of funny as if you've set up an ambush location and placed the shade well then no they won't. what you think the Marines will focus on trying to push into the room to kill 1 shade with 5 skulks rushing them ?
Really ? 130 hours and you still seem to think placing shades in the middle of a room is the best plan ?
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can read through my replies on this and other Camo topics and find out that nerfing Camo won't do a darn thing to help out n00b Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again depends how its changed. So your elitism is showing again by implying to lose to Cameo is a noob thing.
OK how do you stop 3 Onos that are invisible getting close to your base and being able to attack, oh thats right Obs because obviously 130 hours have taught you that Obs operate everywhere and not just inside the limits of a base or used for scans. Its not like someone could test the limits and stand outside them.
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They get face rolled because being Marines commander is hard, while being Aliens commander is easy. That carries it's way on down to the individual players on each team. Something as simple as putting out five drifters after building a second hive can keep Marines from holding even two RT's for enough time to profit by them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And again hence my suggestion of the EMF visor it sorts so many problems. Marines don't have invisible scouts, fine give them a way to see them if they research it.
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you nerf Camo, it makes n00b Alien commanders use a build order that will still roflstomp n00bs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again if you've read right the only nerf to Camo would be the introduction of an item that lets you see though camo for a cost and with its own issues and down sides. Camo will be almost as effective as it is now the difference will be there will be a way to counter it that lets Marines fight it without needing the commander to baby sit them.
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->while being even better mid and late game than Camo could ever hope for. Camo first nerfs your entire team in a hope for a quick win. If you don't get the quick win, and if Marines get that second tech point while denying harvesters, you'll lose just like in any other game. Is it worth 3 of your T.Res to take out a harvester on the other team? You bet your BF2142 it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "while denying harvesters"
Sorry but the way to win before was big groups and not taking RT points wasn't it ? So while the aliens can move round the map and harass your RTs you're in a big group moving round slower relying on the com to scan the whole time
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you keep the pressure up at several locations, the aliens won't have <i>time</i> to screw with your RT's, they'll be too busy trying to defend theirs with camo versus <i>one scan</i> in the area. Unless, of course, like others you will always magically have a shade nearby with pre-deployed ink. Even near mid-map Harvesters. (This, by the way, means their commander wasted almost <i>all</i> off his teams T.Res on easily killed junk, by the way.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you know you could just keep them out of key areas. use shades in key areas and a few nasty whip traps to keep them busy (as in cloak + whip placements designed for Marines to walk in then get hammered by them).
Again you said the strategy to counter Camo was moving in groups and a single offensive push, now suddenly its smaller groups which are easier to ambush and hit as a group as their commander won't be able to scan both attack locations at once for them
If you guys would spent the energy you waste on this thread to actually playing the game you would realize that camo is not OP. SpaceJew is right: Once camo is nerfed aliens would still roflstomp marines. Probably not as quickly, as shift/crag relies more on higher lifeforms to end the game but I think the winrate would not change significantly.
The problem you guys dont see is that Aliens actually ARE OP but camo really is not. Things like power nodes and generally the transition from 0 Onos to 3 Onos within 1 minute screw pub marines much more than cheesy camo.
Camo is the 6 Pool or Bunker rush of NS2. You guys are like "no I will not wall in early agaisnt Zerg just because that gives my an economical disadvantage. Its silly to force Terrans to wall in against Zerg so early when they still could use more SUVs" or "I dont think Terrans should be able to build bunkers outside their base, I dont see why I should scout my expansion with my overlord... it could be shot down. Besides I dont want to build early units, that screws my drone production"
But I know, in YOUR logic camo IS OP. My advice here is to actually proof us wrong here by trying the tactics out as marine. Just go comm for 10 times and build Obs at hives + use scans. Tell your marines to move together to hives and scan for them. Maybe we are wrong and you are right. But after honestly trying 10 times and failing every single time at least I will be more inclined to accept that camo is OP than if youre saying "I mostly play aliens and have only commed once or twice EVER, but I can say with 100% certainty that camo is OP"
<!--quoteo(post=2047503:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you guys would spent the energy you waste on this thread to actually playing the game you would realize that camo is not OP. SpaceJew is right: Once camo is nerfed aliens would still roflstomp marines. Probably not as quickly, as shift/crag relies more on higher lifeforms to end the game but I think the winrate would not change significantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What I've been arguing is Camo is not balanced. Not that it is OP as to be OP means a near instant win. What I've been pointing out is how / why its not balanced. The fact it can be beaten means its not OP, it doesn't however mean its balanced either
<!--quoteo(post=2047503:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem you guys dont see is that Aliens actually ARE OP but camo really is not. Things like power nodes and generally the transition from 0 Onos to 3 Onos within 1 minute screw pub marines much more than cheesy camo.
Camo is the 6 Pool or Bunker rush of NS2. You guys are like "no I will not wall in early agaisnt Zerg just because that gives my an economical disadvantage. Its silly to force Terrans to wall in against Zerg so early when they still could use more SUVs" or "I dont think Terrans should be able to build bunkers outside their base, I dont see why I should scout my expansion with my overlord... it could be shot down. Besides I dont want to build early units, that screws my drone production"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Onos can be countered though if you've had enough resources coming in. however Camo forces you to spend more resources and as people have been saying focus less on RT points so less resources, which you need to fight the Onos attack
<!--quoteo(post=2047503:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I know, in YOUR logic camo IS OP. My advice here is to actually proof us wrong here by trying the tactics out as marine. Just go comm for 10 times and build Obs at hives + use scans. Tell your marines to move together to hives and scan for them. Maybe we are wrong and you are right. But after honestly trying 10 times and failing every single time at least I will be more inclined to accept that camo is OP than if youre saying "I mostly play aliens and have only commed once or twice EVER, but I can say with 100% certainty that camo is OP"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again not balanced =/= completely OP, it just means there are issues that can be exploited, the main one being forcing the hands of the Marines.
What really would the harm be in there being a second way to counter Camo / break it. If priced accordingly then it would be giving Marines a choice of which to go for, rather than forcing them into a "To win you must do this and this alone" style approach.
<!--quoteo(post=2047605:date=Dec 18 2012, 03:11 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 18 2012, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What really would the harm be in there being a second way to counter Camo / break it.
If priced accordingly then it would be giving Marines a choice of which to go for, rather than forcing them into a "To win you must do this and this alone" style approach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) To add another thing that needs balancing to a game that is not balanced in the first place does not seem like the best idea.
2) The whole point about RTS games is to develop counter strategies. There are at least 2 viable strategies(Tech lockdown or hiverush) against camo, which is seems alright to me.
3) The price of this thing you suggest would even more shift the balance towards aliens as it would slow down marine tech even more and therefor making them more vulnerable to higher lifeforms.
4) This device even if 100% balanced would dumb down the gameplay as it would be a boring, highly specialized "disable cloak" button. This means once marines got this device the game would play the same as without camo. So basically you could also remove camo and the marine counter from the game completely. Most games work along this symmetrical rock, paper scissor style where one unit hardcounters one specific other unit (infanty < tank < engineer < infantry)
The special thing about NS2 is that it is full of asymmetrical imbalances. You cant say "oh ok aliens got onos so I get anti-onos and Im fine until they get anti-anti-onos at which point I will go back to square one until they get onos again".
Camo is MEANT to completely change the pace of the game. So as long as there are one or two strategies that work against camo, this aspect of the game is actually working as intended.
<!--quoteo(post=2047605:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:11 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 18 2012, 08:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What really would the harm be in there being a second way to counter Camo / break it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Join a server with smarter marines?
I mean, really, you've beat this argument to death and until you follow gnoarch's advice rather than dismiss it with a handwave I'm just going to have to assume you are trolling.
<!--quoteo(post=2047610:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) To add another thing that needs balancing to a game that is not balanced in the first place does not seem like the best idea.
2) The whole point about RTS games is to develop counter strategies. There are at least 2 viable strategies(Tech lockdown or hiverush) against camo, which is seems alright to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> With most other things in the game there is choice though and while rushing might have become part of RTS the infamous Red alert Tank rush strategy has always been shall we say frowned upon. Also as I pointed out there are already counter strategies to both of these and with enough tech points on some maps to take 1 more beyond your base and the aliens still get 3 means it really does force a fast and expensive / hard to maintain expansion.
All a simple say scanner or EMF visor item would do would present choice to the Marines beyond 1) We have to end this now with a full rush and hope it works and they don't simply unplug our base first 2) Having to expend and ignore a lot of RT points while the Aliens are allowed to control them
<!--quoteo(post=2047610:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) The price of this thing you suggest would even more shift the balance towards aliens as it would slow down marine tech even more and therefor making them more vulnerable to higher lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it was an example of how it could be done it doesn't mean it would have to be only that price however I suggested that cost based upon the idea of the scan cost to reach an enemy hive with a rush scanning on the way. Hence it was an option not a replacement. So Marines can go for obs and scans or get Obs and phase gate and the other option.
If you do 3 scans to find the hive that's 9 res, then to go directly to the hive its at least another 3 scans to make sure so 9 more res at least hence the higher tech cost I put forward as at present for scans etc it is costing that much already so to say it would delay Marines Tech further, would mean the Marine commander had gone for both Obs scanning and the other option. Otherwise that is roughly how many res it does cost at present scanning so the alternative was suggested at roughly the same tech costs.
<!--quoteo(post=2047610:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) This device even if 100% balanced would dumb down the gameplay as it would be a boring, highly specialized "disable cloak" button. This means once marines got this device the game would play the same as without camo. So basically you could also remove camo and the marine counter from the game completely. Most games work along this symmetrical rock, paper scissor style where one unit hardcounters one specific other unit (infanty < tank < engineer < infantry)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At present Cloak almost is a dumbed down gameplay as unless the enemy is scanning constantly you can walk right up to a Marine and first hit him easy. Also as suggested different things would have their on issues, it wouldn't be a disable cloak button. the suggestion I made of EMF visor would mean essentially the Marine using it would be blind to any other threat and require his team to back him up as he could only spot cloaked threats not regular ones. Cloak would still be effective as if that Marine with visor or whatever isn't looking at you then you're still cloaked and the other Marines can't see you or with the motion tracker, they'd have at best a vague 2D idea of where you are in a 3D environment. You have to also consider that said Marine would most likely not be able to repair or not regularly be carrying more damaging weapons such as a shotgun due to keep buying the visor.
At present Cloak is rather boring as you often know where the Marine offensive is and you only have to get behind them and wait for your chance between scans to get them, or if its in other locations on the map there's no worry in attacking as you're not going to get uncloaked till you want to and can get that first hit in.
Another option on the Marine level would simple have Marines being forced to work together as groups more. It would still mean poorly co-ordinated teams will lose. Also working on line of sight doesn't stop Aliens from using their Natural stealth to prevent them being found by someone able to see through Camo. For Example a Marine with an EMF visor comes in, visible due to say a blue light coming infront of them like a mini flash light style thing. and alien climbs up in the roof and uses part of the roof to hide behind. The Marine assumes there's nothing there. The alien then drops down and can ambush them just as well and take advantage of the belief of those Marines that they aren't about to be ambushed / the place is clear.
<!--quoteo(post=2047610:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The special thing about NS2 is that it is full of asymmetrical imbalances. You cant say "oh ok aliens got onos so I get anti-onos and Im fine until they get anti-anti-onos at which point I will go back to square one until they get onos again".
Camo is MEANT to completely change the pace of the game. So as long as there are one or two strategies that work against camo, this aspect of the game is actually working as intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually Onos do have a counter, its called Weapons 3 Exo. With even 1 Mac supporting at weapons 3 you can Exo down an Onos and a pack of skulks. and this is a single minigun exo not a dual one. you could describe the relationship as Exo weapons 3 > Onos Gorge + Bile bomb > Exo Marine > Gorge Onos > Marine
essentially this game is Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
Comments
Very true there. the issue is and this could probably be a thing for some-one who's been in the community for a while. That Camo is a casualty at present of the meta game. That's not a bad thing its most likely that due to heavy use of shade first hive people in competitive have adapted to that approach and as yet theres not much investigation in competitive to bring the shade hive back to relevance as the present approach is very much the Starcraft 1 strategy of roughly the same plan/s and who can implement their sides first. I don't doubt once people realise how shade can be used more that it will become relevant in competitive play again. The issue again being Marines don't get a choice to counter it. with most other hives there are choices you can use but shade doesn't really offer Marines a choice of counters it simply offers one which again itself can be countered fairly effectively.
<!--quoteo(post=2046615:date=Dec 16 2012, 01:04 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 16 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right.
That's why against camo you just get 2 Hives as marines. Get obs, mines and PG there.
So what is the advantage of camo in this scenario? Nothing! because you just cant use camo around an obs.
Wait, I know your answer "But we will never get 2 hives, skulks just kill us!!!!11 Camo skulks are better than Onos!!!11"...
Let's just wait for 1 or 2 moths how metagame evolves and then talk about camo again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you can use a Camo Lurk to get within range of the base power node and simply fire the thing down over time, stopping firing and going back into camo when you hear a Marine coming (I've done this myself before) what it does is force welders too and force people to stay at both bases repairing / hunting for you while your team rips every other RT down.
Or if the power node isn't you thing you can position to fire at the observatory, remember that thing has no armour so it will go down fairly fast.
Also before you ask, yes a lurk has a larger range than an obs station
That's why against camo you just get 2 Hives as marines. Get obs, mines and PG there.
So what is the advantage of camo in this scenario? Nothing! because you just cant use camo around an obs.
Wait, I know your answer "But we will never get 2 hives, skulks just kill us!!!!11 Camo skulks are better than Onos!!!11"...
Let's just wait for 1 or 2 moths how metagame evolves and then talk about camo again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good job with your reading comprehension... I specifically said camo skulks are not for attacking main bases they are for denying marine expansion. I also never said camo skulks are better than onos. I clearly said camo skulks allow you to ignore going lerk and fade and cause an onos avalanche that marines can't defend against. Now please if you want to actually discuss things be my guess, but stop acting like a ######.
Yes I know what you said. You are right. But it does not matter in this case. Because the counter to camo is to not wildly expand. Yout just take 2 hives.
It's like if you have a sniper rifle and your opponent has a shotgun. You can choose to fight in a) apartment building or b) open field with several vantage points.
What would you choose? (hint: Most NS2 Marines would choose the apartment building)
I tried some serious discussion pages ago. But obviously camop is so op that no valid argument changes the opinion of you guys. So I don't really see the point of these threads anymore.
I'm really pissed off by this stupid camo discussion. Why?
Because Aliens ARE OP. But not because of camo!
Over this whole camo ###### nobody talks about the real reasons why marines loose so many games.
Camo will either be nerfed or players will lern to cope with it. But then there still will be the problem of Aliens bein too strong. So at the moment we waste energy and maybe time the devs could spent on useful things over an completely exaggerated problem.
Yes, Shade Skulks are very powerful, but the rest of your lifeforms are noticeably weaker in comparison to what they could be. This is no cause for alarm, though. Shade hive's power lies in defensive playstyle, which correlates well to Alien playstyle which is also defensive in the early stages of the game. The problem here is that it's almost like you're looking at competitive Alien players play, and comparing them to playing against pub Marines.
Good marines will notice that you have went Shade first, and will pressure your hive until it goes down. You don't need to expand to a 2nd Comm station as early, although I'll admit that most pub players will do this without a thought. Once again, this is not Aliens showcasing how imba they are, this is showcasing how bad decisions are punished, and how blindly expanding without proper information is characteristic of poor marine play.
I'm also not saying that other upgrades are ALWAYS going to be better than Shade's. I'm simply saying that the window for marines to break in and take a massive lead is larger than it is with other hives. Other hives you can come back with some higher lifeforms like Fades/Lerks and do something earlier. Then theres the fact that Shade Hive is the ONLY hive that is hardcountered by marine skills/tools.
You don't NEED Shade hive to play defensive. You can avoid detection by walking and good positioning, which is the only thing Shade gives you. At least once Observatories go up you have something to help you at ALL times and ALL phases of the game if you don't go Shade. It's even worse in pubs where you can easily see 30 or more mines placed all over the map to give marines even more cushion. These mines will destroy Aliens with no Celerity or Carapace.
You have to admit its a little stupid to be calling for fixes because the only hive that is hardcountered by marines is op. Especially since the game hasn't been out that long. Like I'm sure it has been said before now: Shade is not the reason Aliens are winning more games.
Shrimm- It sounds to me like you're playing against a lot of bad players. If you live in NA, feel free to add me as a buddy I'll get you into some good games, bro.
Actually when something is presently killed due to the meta game in competitive it makes no sense to refuse to fix it when its only being seen in pubs and its pubs that's being affected. Expect Shade to make one hell of a meta game comeback in the future. Also as competitive so far is different to pub due to player numbers it means at present the pub and comp games are almost two different ones.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, Shade Skulks are very powerful, but the rest of your lifeforms are noticeably weaker in comparison to what they could be. This is no cause for alarm, though. Shade hive's power lies in defensive playstyle, which correlates well to Alien playstyle which is also defensive in the early stages of the game. The problem here is that it's almost like you're looking at competitive Alien players play, and comparing them to playing against pub Marines.
Good marines will notice that you have went Shade first, and will pressure your hive until it goes down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they can find it. Again a comp alien commander will have shaded the hive and if they are good faked their expansion so marines who come from the main 2-3 points you can attack from will see infestation between two possible hive locations. With shade up you can hide your hide and force them to check all 3 locations, during which its pretty easy to pick them off or slow for them to move as a group. or expensive due to them having to waste an extra scan on your hive to find it
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need to expand to a 2nd Comm station as early, although I'll admit that most pub players will do this without a thought. Once again, this is not Aliens showcasing how imba they are, this is showcasing how bad decisions are punished, and how blindly expanding without proper information is characteristic of poor marine play.
I'm also not saying that other upgrades are ALWAYS going to be better than Shade's. I'm simply saying that the window for marines to break in and take a massive lead is larger than it is with other hives. Other hives you can come back with some higher lifeforms like Fades/Lerks and do something earlier. Then theres the fact that Shade Hive is the ONLY hive that is hardcountered by marine skills/tools.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again its not. infact camo is closer to being a hard counter itself as it provides a permanent extra which marines have to constantly spend resources to counter.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't NEED Shade hive to play defensive. You can avoid detection by walking and good positioning, which is the only thing Shade gives you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True to an extent however Shade lets you be more blatant and removes the need to be able to hit that perfect bite as you drop from the ceiling cover also the misdirection abilities of hallucination really are overlooked at present. I mean being able to fake your hive position and force the enemy into attacking the wrong place ? That's useful.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At least once Observatories go up you have something to help you at ALL times and ALL phases of the game if you don't go Shade. It's even worse in pubs where you can easily see 30 or more mines placed all over the map to give marines even more cushion. These mines will destroy Aliens with no Celerity or Carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually again not as unless you're being stupid even a skulk with patience can remove Mines on walls or just avoid them by climbing in the thing you're destroying and as such be above the mines.
<!--quoteo(post=2046689:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have to admit its a little stupid to be calling for fixes because the only hive that is hardcountered by marines is op. Especially since the game hasn't been out that long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again unless I'm mistaken its not a hard counter if you force them into expending considerable more resources than it took you to begin the play.
As both have the same initial set up only stealth costs nothing beyond it to keep up but per scan its 3 resources. Populate a fake hive and have your team defend it, say 16 resources or more.
having Marines attack you and scan every location 9 to locate the hive, then around 12 more to attack it. And this is an absolute hive rush with no delays such as phase gating or setting up the power nodes and the enemy commander has no defences up at all and no hidden whips or gorges who have set up defences. You can actually force the game longer and if they rush you, you can rush them in return.
Marines can put up RTs faster than aliens can, and as such can use the extra res to counter camo if they need to. Your idea of balance is just not that good. This is the exact same argument that pub players make in Dota that invis is op because it forces the opposing team to spend money in detection. Spending money in detection is only going to net you an advantage anyway you cut it, and that goes for both games. Unless you ######ing blow.
Of course Shade will make a huge comeback in the future. If they bring back Feign Death... definitely don't doubt it, and we'll be hearing crying over that ability as well. You give entirely too much credit to hallucinations as they are now. They're actually extremely weak against any competent team, even in a pub.
I'm not sure what it is with all these new players crying about camo. It was never an issue in beta. In fact most players cried about how crappy Shade was. It wasn't until all of these new players came post release that camo was a "problem." You know why? Because you're just not that good. In fact, one might even say you're pretty crappy, if you're one of these new players. If you were playing in beta and still hold true to your stance, then that's your opinion, and I respect the fact that you have one. Just so happens you're wrong. :)
The game has gotten to the point where nearly everyone curious about commanding has tried it out and decided if it's for them or not. As time goes on, you'll see more effective commanders in public games and with that the camoGG won't be so prevalent.
It depends where the engagement is in a lot of pub games unless you're ambushed by 5 people in one go right outside the base then its not that simple to tell.
Also with the fake hive you have to ask if the commander would use a scan considering it costs resources so why spend them why you have a Marine who can see the enemy base ?
At present hallucination is not used much so its questionable how many know about it or would remember about it. you could simply ink to hide that its a fake or replace it etc.
either way you're forcing them to use their resources.
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines can put up RTs faster than aliens can, and as such can use the extra res to counter camo if they need to. Your idea of balance is just not that good.
This is the exact same argument that pub players make in Dota that invis is op because it forces the opposing team to spend money in detection. Spending money in detection is only going to net you an advantage anyway you cut it, and that goes for both games. Unless you ######ing blow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
again you can counter this and force the enemy to blow it and use this knowledge against them.
How good is it when you blew your detection on a fake because you thought the enemy made a mistake themselves ?
Its also not good when the enemy uses this against you to cost you time
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course Shade will make a huge comeback in the future. If they bring back Feign Death... definitely don't doubt it, and we'll be hearing crying over that ability as well. You give entirely too much credit to hallucinations as they are now. They're actually extremely weak against any competent team, even in a pub.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any as they are used so rarely and not used much to create traps. This game is new and oddly shade seems to be one of the deepest specialisations that hasn't been explored.
I dunno as I never saw Feign death before however it feign death's return just causes the enemy to look dead it will mean I simply put one more bullet into the enemy.
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure what it is with all these new players crying about camo. It was never an issue in beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it was a closed or fairly closed Beta then that's your answer. Public vs people doing it for good / fair play / to test the game often down find these things or ways to create advantages. In Beta people don't tend to spend 15 hours jumping at a wall in different spots at different angles when released people will to see if it gets them an advantage (Heck someone has found a way out of one map already)
<!--quoteo(post=2046730:date=Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM:name=awwwsnap)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (awwwsnap @ Dec 16 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact most players cried about how crappy Shade was. It wasn't until all of these new players came post release that camo was a "problem." You know why?
Because you're just not that good. In fact, one might even say you're pretty crappy, if you're one of these new players. If you were playing in beta and still hold true to your stance, then that's your opinion, and I respect the fact that you have one. Just so happens you're wrong. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're going to play the elitist card of "I was here in the beginning if you weren't then I give you no credence".
Its kind of strange you're pointing at me as an individual when I am not my team. Nor am I the commander. Camo relies heavily on your commander to counter, not you, your commander as good skulks with camo will be ready to ambush you, short of firing off ammo the whole time you won't uncover them until they decide to attack. while Camo being used on you relies more on the enemy team. Ok their commander can play some nasty tricks to counter you, however the issue is for Aliens its personal skill for the Marines your skill will not save you as the Aliens will be right on you and short of wasting ammo you have no way to know they are there until its too late.
That's why against camo you just get 2 Hives as marines. Get obs, mines and PG there.
So what is the advantage of camo in this scenario? Nothing! because you just cant use camo around an obs.
Wait, I know your answer "But we will never get 2 hives, skulks just kill us!!!!11 Camo skulks are better than Onos!!!11"...
Let's just wait for 1 or 2 moths how metagame evolves and then talk about camo again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like how I suggest this as a good strat against camo and 1 page later it's *the* way to counter camo. Previously "scanning" was the camo counter. I just wish we could get some unbiased opinions on this, because on EU servers camo seems to be the 9/10 time win strat, while in magical la-la land camo is horrible skulks are caught pants down (they don't have pants) by scan and marines always win. There's gotta be the middle ground somewhere.
the only minor issue with that is at present you can decloak instantly by jumping so most skulk players will just jump like that to decloak instead
Also with the fake hive you have to ask if the commander would use a scan considering it costs resources so why spend them why you have a Marine who can see the enemy base ?
At present hallucination is not used much so its questionable how many know about it or would remember about it. you could simply ink to hide that its a fake or replace it etc.
either way you're forcing them to use their resources.
again you can counter this and force the enemy to blow it and use this knowledge against them.
How good is it when you blew your detection on a fake because you thought the enemy made a mistake themselves ?
Its also not good when the enemy uses this against you to cost you time
Any as they are used so rarely and not used much to create traps. This game is new and oddly shade seems to be one of the deepest specialisations that hasn't been explored.
I dunno as I never saw Feign death before however it feign death's return just causes the enemy to look dead it will mean I simply put one more bullet into the enemy.
If it was a closed or fairly closed Beta then that's your answer. Public vs people doing it for good / fair play / to test the game often down find these things or ways to create advantages. In Beta people don't tend to spend 15 hours jumping at a wall in different spots at different angles when released people will to see if it gets them an advantage (Heck someone has found a way out of one map already)
So you're going to play the elitist card of "I was here in the beginning if you weren't then I give you no credence".
Its kind of strange you're pointing at me as an individual when I am not my team. Nor am I the commander. Camo relies heavily on your commander to counter, not you, your commander as good skulks with camo will be ready to ambush you, short of firing off ammo the whole time you won't uncover them until they decide to attack. while Camo being used on you relies more on the enemy team. Ok their commander can play some nasty tricks to counter you, however the issue is for Aliens its personal skill for the Marines your skill will not save you as the Aliens will be right on you and short of wasting ammo you have no way to know they are there until its too late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize Marines can build more than one observatory? You don't need to waste res on scans at all. You simply put an Obs up at a point you want to protect, and you protect it. You make it seem like the commander should have little to no involvement in the outcome of the game other than just deciding what structures and upgrades to get. I don't blame you, you're obviously new since your feathers got a little ruffled when I played the "elitist card", when in reality all I was doing was stating the truth that you don't have ample experience to realize what it is you're saying. It's understandable, we were all new at one point, and the more you argue, the more obvious it is that you just need to chill and learn the game some more.
There are a lot of things Marines can do to really mess with the aliens, you just aren't aware of them yet. In time you(along with a lot of other players) will realize that the commander really needs to do more than just build random structures and scan random rooms. Structure placement is a HUGE part of the game, and this includes Observatories along with Armories to create choke points. Please, gain some more experience before you make threads like this. I'll leave it at that; I'm not here to teach you how to play.
Look, I think already I posted this on like page 2 or something. Also I base my knowledge on the experiance I have with camo which mainly stems from games on YOclan server. More than 90% of all shade first games I can remember were won by marines by locking 2 Hives the way I described. And of course there was also scanning involved ;)
I DO realize, that this particular server I almost exclusively play on may be frequented by more experianced players than other servers.
So I do not generally disagree to adjust Camo somehow to improve the fun factor for new players. What I oppose strongly is the absurd focus on the camo as "the problem" we have here right now.
Generally most balance problems often are reduced to l2p. I think this is wrong in many cases, because players improve their skill on both marines and aliens.
Camo however is one of the few cases where this is not true. There is not much room for improvement for camo skulks. Sure, being ultrapassive is a problem for noobs with camo, but once you start to use camo offensively there is really not much room to improve.
On the other hands marines can but only learn to handle camo better.
This leads to the conclusion that marines will learn to handle camo fairly quickly and from this point it wont be that winbutton anymore.
So I think we should rather focus more on thinking about how to balance the game in general than to waste energy on a problem that will be fixed by metagame sooner or later.
Also I think the people complaining so much about camo should realize and acknowledge that camo is indeed beatable. I just think its bad attitude to blow this camo topic that much out of proportion. I mean at the worst times there are 3 or 4 topics about camo on page 1 and everybody saying that camo is indeed beatable is regarded as a condescending ass ...
I DO realize, that this particular server I almost exclusively play on may be frequented by more experianced players than other servers.
So I do not generally disagree to adjust Camo somehow to improve the fun factor for new players. What I oppose strongly is the absurd focus on the camo as "the problem" we have here right now.
Generally most balance problems often are reduced to l2p. I think this is wrong in many cases, because players improve their skill on both marines and aliens.
Camo however is one of the few cases where this is not true. There is not much room for improvement for camo skulks. Sure, being ultrapassive is a problem for noobs with camo, but once you start to use camo offensively there is really not much room to improve.
On the other hands marines can but only learn to handle camo better.
This leads to the conclusion that marines will learn to handle camo fairly quickly and from this point it wont be that winbutton anymore.
So I think we should rather focus more on thinking about how to balance the game in general than to waste energy on a problem that will be fixed by metagame sooner or later.
Also I think the people complaining so much about camo should realize and acknowledge that camo is indeed beatable. I just think its bad attitude to blow this camo topic that much out of proportion. I mean at the worst times there are 3 or 4 topics about camo on page 1 and everybody saying that camo is indeed beatable is regarded as a condescending ass ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem is look at the other two tech trees for aliens. At present Crags are used and shifts are used mostly to their potential except people failing to use shift Echo much. At present though shade abilities are rarely used beyond the initial passive of the shade shroom cloaking things. In terms of the meta game shade is already being pointed out as a problem with people using very little of its true depth. Shade hive used well would need a very much hands on approach from an alien commander which doesn't happen, however you can still get a win from team ability alone. In terms of the meta game someone going to get good at shade and while at present its possible to counter when about 1/2 of its potential is in use compared to the other tech trees with Crag hives having at present 100% of their potential used and shift hives having 75% of its potential used regularly.
The fact people are pointing out there's a problem when most enemy commander will use 25-50% of the shade hives potential with the rare commander managing 75% (as in I've seen it used once effectively).
Camo is beatable but the thing is at what cost ? Essentially you have to fire off resources quite a lot and Marines have to sacrifice part of their end game power essentially or delay it further.
To counter Camo you have to
Spend resources regularly as in a room by room bases or even more often.
Sacrifice going for resource points yourself / accept losing them and running on maybe 2 resource points 3 if you're lucky.
Camo at present doesn't balance out, it really doesn't as to counter it you get screwed over twice essentially first with the need to scan so often and second by not being able to make up for this extra expense with more RT points.
You can say oh but enemies are weaker they don't get to move faster so dodge better or the extra protection of carapace.
It doesn't matter Marines will have a harder time getting the upgrades due to having to cut back on spending to allow for regular scanning.
The fact people are pointing out there's a problem when most enemy commander will use 25-50% of the shade hives potential with the rare commander managing 75% (as in I've seen it used once effectively).
Camo is beatable but the thing is at what cost ? Essentially you have to fire off resources quite a lot and Marines have to sacrifice part of their end game power essentially or delay it further.
To counter Camo you have to
Spend resources regularly as in a room by room bases or even more often.
Sacrifice going for resource points yourself / accept losing them and running on maybe 2 resource points 3 if you're lucky.
Camo at present doesn't balance out, it really doesn't as to counter it you get screwed over twice essentially first with the need to scan so often and second by not being able to make up for this extra expense with more RT points.
You can say oh but enemies are weaker they don't get to move faster so dodge better or the extra protection of carapace.
It doesn't matter Marines will have a harder time getting the upgrades due to having to cut back on spending to allow for regular scanning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is valid to say that camo also is not used to its fullest potential. It would indeed be interesting to play with a good comm against a good kahmm goin shade first.
About camo costing marines res at the beginning: While this is true, It is not really that much of a problem as most people think. Because of the lack of cara/cele you dont need weapon/armor upgrades quite as fast as against a crag/shift combo because especially higher lifeforms are considerably weaker.
Also you dont need that much scans anymore once you have established bases with obs at both hives(which you would do anyway, you just get the obs earlier)
Marines dont neccessarily need scans to harass rts. Sure, they will die but if I die 5 or 6 times and in the process kill a rt and maybe two or three skulks thats worth it.
Once you got 2 Hives locked down the pressure on your rts also get reduced alot because Aliens will know that they HAVE to attack your hives.
E.g. two days ago we played against shade on tram. We rushed repair, got a Obs+PG and then rushed elevator and got Obs+PG there. After that we lost repair but managed to get it back with the help of scans.
So from this moment we just defended and ran suicide missions to ore and mezz to just kill the rts. This led to 10 hard minutes where we had to jump from hive to hive to defend yet another alien attack, while trying to get rts down. But on the other hand we had 3 rts at tech points + observation and logistics. The two rts outside of the hives were attacked occasionally but because of the pressure we put on, it was not that much and after all a skulk eating a rt is not cloaked so its fairly easy to kill.
So we had 3-5 rts all the time which is not bad at all. Of course the map layout of tram plays into this strategy.
After defending and nearly losing the hives for several times our upgrades kicked in and from this moment forward aliens had noch chance because the lack of shift/crag combo and we won fairly easy.
What Im trying to say is that you cant translate the "few rts because shade" into "few rts against shift/crag" as the shade hive shifts the upgrade dynamic for both teams. Shade first puts significantly more focus on tech points where a normal shift/crag opening is more about securing/denying rts.
There are a lot of things Marines can do to really mess with the aliens, you just aren't aware of them yet. In time you(along with a lot of other players) will realize that the commander really needs to do more than just build random structures and scan random rooms. Structure placement is a HUGE part of the game, and this includes Observatories along with Armories to create choke points. Please, gain some more experience before you make threads like this. I'll leave it at that; I'm not here to teach you how to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So to counter the fake hive the solution is to spend the time to build an Obs there ?
Sure an obs helps on defence however as has been said before. Offence is better in NS2. to defend every location such as harvesters it would require putting one of the more vulnerable structures up in an area which the aliens can easily access. Its not great move.
Also even if I weren't new I'd still have gotten onto you about that elitist comment.
Sorry but while some things can be passed off as "Oh he's new he doesn't get it" some things like how little shade hives are used to their full potential are rather obvious to see.
I get choke points etc however setting the easiest to kill structure in the open isn't that great in terms of a move believe me that's RTS FPS 101 which anyone from 2142 will tell you. for an obs to be worth it you'd have to have that choke point locked down and one thing with most choke points is they don't fall that near the power node for that area. That's essentially the Aliens way to break any choke attempt if bile bomb won't cut it.
<!--quoteo(post=2047160:date=Dec 17 2012, 04:42 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 17 2012, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is valid to say that camo also is not used to its fullest potential. It would indeed be interesting to play with a good comm against a good kahmm goin shade first.
What Im trying to say is that you cant translate the "few rts because shade" into "few rts against shift/crag" as the shade hive shifts the upgrade dynamic for both teams. Shade first puts significantly more focus on tech points where a normal shift/crag opening is more about securing/denying rts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will give you that as true however the aliens only need to hold out until they have say 3 pres Onos ready to go then its simply a case of use them to rush one point and try to force a beacon, then with them there you have the rest of your forces target the power in one of the other bases. As you can't see the Onos coming due to the cloak then the attack can't be predicted. At best you lose one base either due to fighting the Onos and not the fade / skulks or at worst both as you get moved by the commander before you could kill the Onos costing that base and arrive just too late to save the power from the fade + skulks.
Also the aliens can Turtle attack your base with either Crags or celerity. crags letting the Onos switch out and heal near by and Celerity etc letting Onos retreat quick and Gorges act as healing stations for them a distance away from the main battle.
the strategy you used worked partly because that's completely unexpected. Aliens commander wouldn't expect you to suicide run he'd be expecting group movement and probably didn't split his own forces well enough to deal with it, which can be done with stealth. Its a well played move I'll give you that but I wouldn't anticipate it working for long as the meta game will evolve to deal with it too as Cloak can let the aliens do.
If you want to know why no one uses Ink, it's because you've got to grow a cyst chain to where you want it, build the shade, wait for it to mature, and <i>know</i> when the Marines commander is going to scan. He'll probably get at least one without ink up, and that's more than enough time to uncloak and kill several skulks with several Marines. Or, kill the Shade itself if you're up against <i>good</i> Marines. Ink doesn't negate a scan that's already going, just the follow up scans.
I'm not saying that a well-used ink right after a scan is necessarily <i>bad</i>, but it's not as useful as everyone keeps trying to make it out to be. It's <i>something</i> the Alien commander can do, but like every other direct thing the Alien Comm can do it isn't much even if you micro the hell out of it.
I think a lot of people are over thinking it trying to make excuses about why they get owned all the time by the Aliens. I still don't care if they nerf it, and I guarantee right after any nerf they'll be complaining about celerity skulks having too much map control early game. (Or some other BS reason to explain away why they lose a lot.)
If you want to know why no one uses Ink, it's because you've got to grow a cyst chain to where you want it, build the shade, wait for it to mature, and <i>know</i> when the Marines commander is going to scan. He'll probably get at least one without ink up, and that's more than enough time to uncloak and kill several skulks with several Marines. Or, kill the Shade itself if you're up against <i>good</i> Marines. Ink doesn't negate a scan that's already going, just the follow up scans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence you don't do silly things like put a shade right out in the middle of the room for everyone to see and enjoy killing.
<!--quoteo(post=2047386:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not saying that a well-used ink right after a scan is necessarily <i>bad</i>, but it's not as useful as everyone keeps trying to make it out to be. It's <i>something</i> the Alien commander can do, but like every other direct thing the Alien Comm can do it isn't much even if you micro the hell out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So wait its a legitimate counter for the marine commander to have to sit and babysit his squad scanning each room for them. But its not if the Alien commander has to sit and press to fire off Ink ?
And before you say on but you scan a room and pick up all the aliens while Ink won't hide them all. Well that's why you hang back a bit as Aliens and rush the room once the Marines think its clear.
<!--quoteo(post=2047386:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a lot of people are over thinking it trying to make excuses about why they get owned all the time by the Aliens. I still don't care if they nerf it, and I guarantee right after any nerf they'll be complaining about celerity skulks having too much map control early game. (Or some other BS reason to explain away why they lose a lot.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity skulks = I can still shoot the damn thing before it gets an attack in on me, also to use it fully you make plenty of noise unless you combine with silence. celerity is a convenience thing mostly and maybe a hand to help you avoid being shot / taking so much damage while attacking / escaping. Hence there's no complaints about it.
Camo a good skulk can get 75 damage on me before I have chance to see and shoot him unless I'm getting my commander to spam scans the whole time.
Funny because I mainly play alien.. Camo is not fun to play against or with. It is boring, repetitive, and easy. There worst part of camo though is you're team is pretty much guaranteed to win, every game plays out nearly the same.
Heh, if you're counting on me being as big of a noob as you you're in for some disappointment. How many hours of commanding <i>do</i> you have, while we're talking about it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So wait its a legitimate counter for the marine commander to have to sit and babysit his squad scanning each room for them. But its not if the Alien commander has to sit and press to fire off Ink ?
And before you say on but you scan a room and pick up all the aliens while Ink won't hide them all. Well that's why you hang back a bit as Aliens and rush the room once the Marines think its clear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a legitimate enough counter if you're talking about Marines assaulting an already secured Hive, I guess. At least if the Marines don't wipe the floor with your crappy slow arse skulks anyway. Why the Marines would <i>do</i> such a thing is really the question, since at the start of the game it seems like they should be securing <i>unsecured</i> tech points but hey we're talking the best Aliens team in the world versus total n00bs right? They don't know any better, so any argument can work with that being your central premise.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Celerity skulks = I can still shoot the damn thing before it gets an attack in on me, also to use it fully you make plenty of noise unless you combine with silence. celerity is a convenience thing mostly and maybe a hand to help you avoid being shot / taking so much damage while attacking / escaping. Hence there's no complaints about it.
Camo a good skulk can get 75 damage on me before I have chance to see and shoot him unless I'm getting my commander to spam scans the whole time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scan has a duration, target highlighting, and if you need more than one you're a bad enough shot to not hit a celerity skulk in the first place. Therefore I foresee your return to complain about early map control Celerity skulks a week or two after any possible Camo nerfs. Probably in relation to your IP's being taken out repeatedly at the start of a game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny because I mainly play alien.. Camo is not fun to play against or with. It is boring, repetitive, and easy. There worst part of camo though is you're team is pretty much guaranteed to win, every game plays out nearly the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree it isn't fun to play <i>with</i> Camo, but against it is great. I mean, most times Marines are clueless and give laughable resistance even <i>without</i> camo. The worst part about Camo? It lulls people into a false sense of security since they attribute all their wins to an upgrade, rather than a clueless other team.
Mines are a nice soft counter to cloak, since they can hammer skulks, obs are ok but expensive if you expand quickly. Lerks are good against mines, but cloak is practically useless on them. Usually Obs at techpoints, mines are enough for non - techpoint res.
People complain about map control. If they are cloaked they are moving slow so how are they maintaining control over the map, and why aren't you pushing their hive killing their eggs making them run at you? If you know they are all over the map, then you know you can marine ball their base.
1 hour NS2 commanding
27 hours 2142 commanding (Before someone throws this out the mechanics are pretty damn similar only with less economic balancing and more squad directing)
<!--quoteo(post=2047439:date=Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a legitimate enough counter if you're talking about Marines assaulting an already secured Hive, I guess. At least if the Marines don't wipe the floor with your crappy slow arse skulks anyway. Why the Marines would <i>do</i> such a thing is really the question, since at the start of the game it seems like they should be securing <i>unsecured</i> tech points but hey we're talking the best Aliens team in the world versus total n00bs right? They don't know any better, so any argument can work with that being your central premise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how exactly do the Marines know the tech point isn't compromised ?
Oh yeh they look and see no infestation.
What can shades do ?
Hide infestation.
Pretty simple thing there as its forcing their com to scan in case its there.
Also Marines get the tech point and lose most of their RT points. Now Marines are stuck with very few RT points and two Tech points. Aliens only need to go after a tech point the Marines haven't got and suddenly its 3 hives. Also you seem to lack the understanding of how lethal a well played skulk is. 3 bites and your down, they can also get point blank thanks to camo and get that first bite for free now.
<!--quoteo(post=2047439:date=Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scan has a duration, target highlighting, and if you need more than one you're a bad enough shot to not hit a celerity skulk in the first place. Therefore I foresee your return to complain about early map control Celerity skulks a week or two after any possible Camo nerfs. Probably in relation to your IP's being taken out repeatedly at the start of a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if a Skulk stood there and let you shoot them that easily they're a terrible skulk.
IPs at the start of the game ?
Please Marines can hive rush and egg camp the aliens just as easily easily game
I love the level of elitism going on here right now. What next you want to know my rank in NS2
<!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->Yes I know NS2 has no ranks durr<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Or will it be how long I've been gaming ?
<!--quoteo(post=2047442:date=Dec 18 2012, 04:49 AM:name=Zaphrous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zaphrous @ Dec 18 2012, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they are cloaked they are moving slow so how are they maintaining control over the map, and why aren't you pushing their hive killing their eggs making them run at you? If you know they are all over the map, then you know you can marine ball their base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do know they don't have to stay cloaked right ? you can run then restore cloak closer to where you need to be.
also you don't know they're all over the map, with a Camo team you could have all of 3 skulks harassing your RTs on the map while the rest simply base rush you or force you to constantly turtle in your base with them being able to turtle essentially just outside of your base. using their Camo to hide just out of obs range and attack you there.
27 hours 2142 commanding (Before someone throws this out the mechanics are pretty damn similar only with less economic balancing and more squad directing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've commanded roughly 130 hours of NS2 as both Aliens and Marines (although less Marines, I'll admit.) I also 'commanded' in BF2142, and it was absolutely nothing at all like NS2 beyond the top down view.
You can read through my replies on this and other Camo topics and find out that nerfing Camo won't do a darn thing to help out n00b Marines. They get face rolled because being Marines commander is hard, while being Aliens commander is easy. That carries it's way on down to the individual players on each team. Something as simple as putting out five drifters after building a second hive can keep Marines from holding even two RT's for enough time to profit by them.
If you nerf Camo, it makes n00b Alien commanders use a build order that will still roflstomp n00bs while being even better mid and late game than Camo could ever hope for. Camo first nerfs your entire team in a hope for a quick win. If you don't get the quick win, and if Marines get that second tech point while denying harvesters, you'll lose just like in any other game. Is it worth 3 of your T.Res to take out a harvester on the other team? You bet your BF2142 it is.
If you keep the pressure up at several locations, the aliens won't have <i>time</i> to screw with your RT's, they'll be too busy trying to defend theirs with camo versus <i>one scan</i> in the area. Unless, of course, like others you will always magically have a shade nearby with pre-deployed ink. Even near mid-map Harvesters. (This, by the way, means their commander wasted almost <i>all</i> off his teams T.Res on easily killed junk, by the way.)
I want you to keep playing and commanding, just understand that you have one heck of a higher learning curve on Marine Commanding than anything you've ever seen before in a FPS/RTS hybrid. It is quite probably the hardest thing in NS2. (Aiming might be a close second, or even number one. Depends who you ask.)
Tactics don't change. The fact you implied shades would be easily taken down by Marines is kind of funny as if you've set up an ambush location and placed the shade well then no they won't. what you think the Marines will focus on trying to push into the room to kill 1 shade with 5 skulks rushing them ?
Really ?
130 hours and you still seem to think placing shades in the middle of a room is the best plan ?
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can read through my replies on this and other Camo topics and find out that nerfing Camo won't do a darn thing to help out n00b Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again depends how its changed.
So your elitism is showing again by implying to lose to Cameo is a noob thing.
OK how do you stop 3 Onos that are invisible getting close to your base and being able to attack, oh thats right Obs because obviously 130 hours have taught you that Obs operate everywhere and not just inside the limits of a base or used for scans. Its not like someone could test the limits and stand outside them.
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They get face rolled because being Marines commander is hard, while being Aliens commander is easy. That carries it's way on down to the individual players on each team. Something as simple as putting out five drifters after building a second hive can keep Marines from holding even two RT's for enough time to profit by them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again hence my suggestion of the EMF visor it sorts so many problems. Marines don't have invisible scouts, fine give them a way to see them if they research it.
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you nerf Camo, it makes n00b Alien commanders use a build order that will still roflstomp n00bs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again if you've read right the only nerf to Camo would be the introduction of an item that lets you see though camo for a cost and with its own issues and down sides. Camo will be almost as effective as it is now the difference will be there will be a way to counter it that lets Marines fight it without needing the commander to baby sit them.
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->while being even better mid and late game than Camo could ever hope for. Camo first nerfs your entire team in a hope for a quick win. If you don't get the quick win, and if Marines get that second tech point while denying harvesters, you'll lose just like in any other game. Is it worth 3 of your T.Res to take out a harvester on the other team? You bet your BF2142 it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"while denying harvesters"
Sorry but the way to win before was big groups and not taking RT points wasn't it ?
So while the aliens can move round the map and harass your RTs you're in a big group moving round slower relying on the com to scan the whole time
<!--quoteo(post=2047466:date=Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you keep the pressure up at several locations, the aliens won't have <i>time</i> to screw with your RT's, they'll be too busy trying to defend theirs with camo versus <i>one scan</i> in the area. Unless, of course, like others you will always magically have a shade nearby with pre-deployed ink. Even near mid-map Harvesters. (This, by the way, means their commander wasted almost <i>all</i> off his teams T.Res on easily killed junk, by the way.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you know you could just keep them out of key areas. use shades in key areas and a few nasty whip traps to keep them busy (as in cloak + whip placements designed for Marines to walk in then get hammered by them).
Again you said the strategy to counter Camo was moving in groups and a single offensive push, now suddenly its smaller groups which are easier to ambush and hit as a group as their commander won't be able to scan both attack locations at once for them
SpaceJew is right: Once camo is nerfed aliens would still roflstomp marines. Probably not as quickly, as shift/crag relies more on higher lifeforms to end the game but I think the winrate would not change significantly.
The problem you guys dont see is that Aliens actually ARE OP but camo really is not. Things like power nodes and generally the transition from 0 Onos to 3 Onos within 1 minute screw pub marines much more than cheesy camo.
Camo is the 6 Pool or Bunker rush of NS2. You guys are like "no I will not wall in early agaisnt Zerg just because that gives my an economical disadvantage. Its silly to force Terrans to wall in against Zerg so early when they still could use more SUVs" or "I dont think Terrans should be able to build bunkers outside their base, I dont see why I should scout my expansion with my overlord... it could be shot down. Besides I dont want to build early units, that screws my drone production"
But I know, in YOUR logic camo IS OP. My advice here is to actually proof us wrong here by trying the tactics out as marine. Just go comm for 10 times and build Obs at hives + use scans. Tell your marines to move together to hives and scan for them.
Maybe we are wrong and you are right. But after honestly trying 10 times and failing every single time at least I will be more inclined to accept that camo is OP than if youre saying "I mostly play aliens and have only commed once or twice EVER, but I can say with 100% certainty that camo is OP"
SpaceJew is right: Once camo is nerfed aliens would still roflstomp marines. Probably not as quickly, as shift/crag relies more on higher lifeforms to end the game but I think the winrate would not change significantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I've been arguing is Camo is not balanced. Not that it is OP as to be OP means a near instant win. What I've been pointing out is how / why its not balanced. The fact it can be beaten means its not OP, it doesn't however mean its balanced either
<!--quoteo(post=2047503:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem you guys dont see is that Aliens actually ARE OP but camo really is not. Things like power nodes and generally the transition from 0 Onos to 3 Onos within 1 minute screw pub marines much more than cheesy camo.
Camo is the 6 Pool or Bunker rush of NS2. You guys are like "no I will not wall in early agaisnt Zerg just because that gives my an economical disadvantage. Its silly to force Terrans to wall in against Zerg so early when they still could use more SUVs" or "I dont think Terrans should be able to build bunkers outside their base, I dont see why I should scout my expansion with my overlord... it could be shot down. Besides I dont want to build early units, that screws my drone production"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos can be countered though if you've had enough resources coming in. however Camo forces you to spend more resources and as people have been saying focus less on RT points so less resources, which you need to fight the Onos attack
<!--quoteo(post=2047503:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I know, in YOUR logic camo IS OP. My advice here is to actually proof us wrong here by trying the tactics out as marine. Just go comm for 10 times and build Obs at hives + use scans. Tell your marines to move together to hives and scan for them.
Maybe we are wrong and you are right. But after honestly trying 10 times and failing every single time at least I will be more inclined to accept that camo is OP than if youre saying "I mostly play aliens and have only commed once or twice EVER, but I can say with 100% certainty that camo is OP"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again not balanced =/= completely OP, it just means there are issues that can be exploited, the main one being forcing the hands of the Marines.
What really would the harm be in there being a second way to counter Camo / break it. If priced accordingly then it would be giving Marines a choice of which to go for, rather than forcing them into a "To win you must do this and this alone" style approach.
If priced accordingly then it would be giving Marines a choice of which to go for, rather than forcing them into a "To win you must do this and this alone" style approach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) To add another thing that needs balancing to a game that is not balanced in the first place does not seem like the best idea.
2) The whole point about RTS games is to develop counter strategies. There are at least 2 viable strategies(Tech lockdown or hiverush) against camo, which is seems alright to me.
3) The price of this thing you suggest would even more shift the balance towards aliens as it would slow down marine tech even more and therefor making them more vulnerable to higher lifeforms.
4) This device even if 100% balanced would dumb down the gameplay as it would be a boring, highly specialized "disable cloak" button. This means once marines got this device the game would play the same as without camo. So basically you could also remove camo and the marine counter from the game completely.
Most games work along this symmetrical rock, paper scissor style where one unit hardcounters one specific other unit (infanty < tank < engineer < infantry)
The special thing about NS2 is that it is full of asymmetrical imbalances. You cant say "oh ok aliens got onos so I get anti-onos and Im fine until they get anti-anti-onos at which point I will go back to square one until they get onos again".
Camo is MEANT to completely change the pace of the game. So as long as there are one or two strategies that work against camo, this aspect of the game is actually working as intended.
Join a server with smarter marines?
I mean, really, you've beat this argument to death and until you follow gnoarch's advice rather than dismiss it with a handwave I'm just going to have to assume you are trolling.
2) The whole point about RTS games is to develop counter strategies. There are at least 2 viable strategies(Tech lockdown or hiverush) against camo, which is seems alright to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With most other things in the game there is choice though and while rushing might have become part of RTS the infamous Red alert Tank rush strategy has always been shall we say frowned upon. Also as I pointed out there are already counter strategies to both of these and with enough tech points on some maps to take 1 more beyond your base and the aliens still get 3 means it really does force a fast and expensive / hard to maintain expansion.
All a simple say scanner or EMF visor item would do would present choice to the Marines beyond
1) We have to end this now with a full rush and hope it works and they don't simply unplug our base first
2) Having to expend and ignore a lot of RT points while the Aliens are allowed to control them
<!--quoteo(post=2047610:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) The price of this thing you suggest would even more shift the balance towards aliens as it would slow down marine tech even more and therefor making them more vulnerable to higher lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it was an example of how it could be done it doesn't mean it would have to be only that price however I suggested that cost based upon the idea of the scan cost to reach an enemy hive with a rush scanning on the way. Hence it was an option not a replacement. So Marines can go for obs and scans or get Obs and phase gate and the other option.
If you do 3 scans to find the hive that's 9 res, then to go directly to the hive its at least another 3 scans to make sure so 9 more res at least hence the higher tech cost I put forward as at present for scans etc it is costing that much already so to say it would delay Marines Tech further, would mean the Marine commander had gone for both Obs scanning and the other option. Otherwise that is roughly how many res it does cost at present scanning so the alternative was suggested at roughly the same tech costs.
<!--quoteo(post=2047610:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) This device even if 100% balanced would dumb down the gameplay as it would be a boring, highly specialized "disable cloak" button. This means once marines got this device the game would play the same as without camo. So basically you could also remove camo and the marine counter from the game completely.
Most games work along this symmetrical rock, paper scissor style where one unit hardcounters one specific other unit (infanty < tank < engineer < infantry)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At present Cloak almost is a dumbed down gameplay as unless the enemy is scanning constantly you can walk right up to a Marine and first hit him easy. Also as suggested different things would have their on issues, it wouldn't be a disable cloak button. the suggestion I made of EMF visor would mean essentially the Marine using it would be blind to any other threat and require his team to back him up as he could only spot cloaked threats not regular ones.
Cloak would still be effective as if that Marine with visor or whatever isn't looking at you then you're still cloaked and the other Marines can't see you or with the motion tracker, they'd have at best a vague 2D idea of where you are in a 3D environment. You have to also consider that said Marine would most likely not be able to repair or not regularly be carrying more damaging weapons such as a shotgun due to keep buying the visor.
At present Cloak is rather boring as you often know where the Marine offensive is and you only have to get behind them and wait for your chance between scans to get them, or if its in other locations on the map there's no worry in attacking as you're not going to get uncloaked till you want to and can get that first hit in.
Another option on the Marine level would simple have Marines being forced to work together as groups more. It would still mean poorly co-ordinated teams will lose. Also working on line of sight doesn't stop Aliens from using their Natural stealth to prevent them being found by someone able to see through Camo.
For Example a Marine with an EMF visor comes in, visible due to say a blue light coming infront of them like a mini flash light style thing. and alien climbs up in the roof and uses part of the roof to hide behind. The Marine assumes there's nothing there. The alien then drops down and can ambush them just as well and take advantage of the belief of those Marines that they aren't about to be ambushed / the place is clear.
<!--quoteo(post=2047610:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 18 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The special thing about NS2 is that it is full of asymmetrical imbalances. You cant say "oh ok aliens got onos so I get anti-onos and Im fine until they get anti-anti-onos at which point I will go back to square one until they get onos again".
Camo is MEANT to completely change the pace of the game. So as long as there are one or two strategies that work against camo, this aspect of the game is actually working as intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Onos do have a counter, its called Weapons 3 Exo.
With even 1 Mac supporting at weapons 3 you can Exo down an Onos and a pack of skulks. and this is a single minigun exo not a dual one.
you could describe the relationship as
Exo weapons 3 > Onos
Gorge + Bile bomb > Exo
Marine > Gorge
Onos > Marine
essentially this game is Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock