Alright lets get it together
beyond.wudge
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
Ok guys. We get the game we deserve. If we want a better game it is time to get off our rear ends and stop whinging.
Many feel that the balance in NS2 sucks. This is a big concern for many people. So, lets make a game balance mod and get it going.
If you guys think UWE isn't working fast enough then lets do something about it instead of telling them off all the time.
1) Lets edit the maps/make new ones and play them.
This is simple and easy to accomplish. Half the balancing come from the maps. Change them and without editing the actual game you can shift the win ratios a lot.
2) Lets edit the game itself.
First off we do some small edits, basic stuff with a few values that doesn't require much real testing. Then we develop entire new dynamics as needed.
The tools are there. To quote DBZ: "We have the technology. We can rebuild him, make him stronger." We have no excuse.
If we can't organise such a simple thing then honestly we deserve a buggy, imbalanced and imperfect game. Stop waiting for UWE to do it when we could be off our collective rear ends helping them out.
Many feel that the balance in NS2 sucks. This is a big concern for many people. So, lets make a game balance mod and get it going.
If you guys think UWE isn't working fast enough then lets do something about it instead of telling them off all the time.
1) Lets edit the maps/make new ones and play them.
This is simple and easy to accomplish. Half the balancing come from the maps. Change them and without editing the actual game you can shift the win ratios a lot.
2) Lets edit the game itself.
First off we do some small edits, basic stuff with a few values that doesn't require much real testing. Then we develop entire new dynamics as needed.
The tools are there. To quote DBZ: "We have the technology. We can rebuild him, make him stronger." We have no excuse.
If we can't organise such a simple thing then honestly we deserve a buggy, imbalanced and imperfect game. Stop waiting for UWE to do it when we could be off our collective rear ends helping them out.
Comments
I'm code illiterate. No really I can barely work HTML so as much as I'd love to the last time I did any coding resulted in having to system restore my laptop.
there already are mods out that do this and they even changed/removed a lot of the stuff we hate in the game ( like creep love the 120stable fps after that was removed)
If you like mapping, go for it. I hear UWE even occasionally buys/pays talented mappers for official mappers. It's a lot of work to make a decent map, though.
there already are mods out that do this and they even changed/removed a lot of the stuff we hate in the game ( like creep love the 120stable fps after that was removed)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The balance isn't bad. its just the asymmetrical element to it that's shaking some people I think. There will always be OP calls due to the asymmetrical nature creating a perfect imbalance with people needing to learn and create counter.
E.g. the fact Arcs combined with scanning tec can make a very OP death train able to kill hive from the safety of a marine fortification in the next room to the hive.
Sure there are balance issues but its not bad to the extent its not worth playing.
Ok, where are <b>you</b> going to start improving the game?
And as others have pointed out, any modification splinters the game and it's playerbase. Also, NS2 hasn't really stabilized yet, so any kind of long term progress has to adjust to and compete with UWE's development.
I by no means want to prevent anyone from doing something to support the game. However, it's often quite a bit more complicated than just tinkering a bit with something.
All I hear is a lot of "oh its too hard, I have to put something in to make this work, I can't be bothered."
Then fine, the game will be what it is and _nothing_ will change.
Everyone wants this incredible 'experience' handed to them on a plate. This is why the big games are getting so bad. The game market is full of communities that won't organise and won't invest. Well, then I guess you get what you deserve.
Split the playerbase? You mean actually require people to agree on something? To not be able to force people to play it their way? To have the game the perfect way they want it? Cop outs like these are excuses that stagnate and kill games.
No, they want an experience they were promised they would get when they paid for the game.
2 things UWE can't do anything about
Some new ones. It would give enough variance to the games/tactics to keep people coming back. After a certain point I know exactly what I am going to do on a map and 80% certainty on what the enemy will do to counter. New maps add to replay-ability and maps don't break after every patch either
In all seriousness, it's a good idea, but just not reasonable to do, as it would be too difficult to gather enough stats on it to see if it actually helps or not.
Many feel that the balance in NS2 sucks. This is a big concern for many people. So, lets make a game balance mod and get it going.
If you guys think UWE isn't working fast enough then lets do something about it instead of telling them off all the time.
1) Lets edit the maps/make new ones and play them.
This is simple and easy to accomplish. Half the balancing come from the maps. Change them and without editing the actual game you can shift the win ratios a lot.
2) Lets edit the game itself.
First off we do some small edits, basic stuff with a few values that doesn't require much real testing. Then we develop entire new dynamics as needed.
The tools are there. To quote DBZ: "We have the technology. We can rebuild him, make him stronger." We have no excuse.
If we can't organise such a simple thing then honestly we deserve a buggy, imbalanced and imperfect game. Stop waiting for UWE to do it when we could be off our collective rear ends helping them out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tried, too many people with the wrong opinions that have too much say in what changes to make.
what happens when the majority of people are wrong and then you cater to their malformed opinions
I used to implement suggestions and post screenshots and video instead of just complaining on the forum (relocations, lerk picking up weapons, movement mods, ...) but I have to say it wasn't very successful.
Also, it's very good to implement bad ideas, that's how you learn.
Last I checked the only thing we were promised when pre-ordering the game was the game itself and the developers' eternal gratitude. Other than those two things they legally owe you jack squat. They didn't promise a game YOU PERSONALLY would like. Just a game, made to the best of their ability. If you don't like the direction the game is taking, then take it into your own hands. They gave you the tools to do so. Many people in the community have already done just that rather than sitting here complaining on the forums with an unproductive attitude.
There is posting constructive feedback and criticisms, then there is posting pure bile generated from entitlement.
UWE totally f'd up and released a game way too early. It's pretty damn obvious. They shoulda given it another year.
So I'm going to get back into doing what I used to do (never finishing them)... make maps!
And since I can't bring myself to learn Blender and don't have any other 3D editing program, would somebody do me a huge favor and add top hats and monocles to every player model? Including the hive.
The area we really could use community support with are new maps. Maps take a very long time, and are a ridiculous amount of work, so we cannot be cranking them out at the pace we'd like, and would love to fill out the official map list with more quality community maps. I remember Valve mentioning that there was a period of a year where they had no artists/mappers on TF2, as all the new content was coming from the community. To that end we've been spending some time fixing bugs and adding features to the level editor, to whip it into better shape for both our own internal mappers and for any community mappers brave enough to take on an NS2 map.
Additionally, we've always accepted code bug fixes and small feature additions from the community, as long as the code is at a quality that can be integrated directly into the game.
--Cory
I'm not sure how mappers feel right now, but if I was to start mapping right now I'd greatly appreciate some updated mapping guidelines. The last update is back from 2010 and is probably in no way up to date.
Also, as building maps is a long process, some future targets are handy too. Are the weldable/breakable doorways going to be in, what else?
This is simple and easy to accomplish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My eyebrow raised about 20 meters :P
It's "easy". I'm going to go hit the drawing board, now.
An organised community can really only be a good thing. It produces longevity, investment and resolve which you can't buy or attract with gimmick features.
Yes, the price is a little bit of control. But since nobody expects UWE to be like a big development company UWE shouldn't try to bear the responsibility of a big company. Nobody gives a rats about whether UWE gets the game done by themselves or with help. There will always be another game to try again on when UWE is big and famous with 150+ staff and an endless budget.
In short: the game needs major performance improvements. Yes I understand from posts during the beta that this may be a very fundamental problem with the way the entire game has been coded but in all seriousness you guys can't do everything. Let some elements go and get the community to take up the slack. You can have the whole thing back when things are running smoothly again. I doubt anyone would really complain.
Everyone goes on about how the dev team is so small, and yet they find time to make statistics systems, more spreadsheets and data sets which are impractical. Work more on cleaning your code up, ironing out (you'll have to make a really hot steam iron here) performance issues and actually play your game. Playing your game is practically 10x more useful, your own experience for say the 20-30 hours+ you will put in to designing and reading those stats.
But in the end this can very much be a stop-gap measure. For the kind of testing required to create good community maps you'd need the same infrastructure (servers, playerbase, etc) as a community balance mod. For it to really sing players would need to get organised and make a point of playing on custom RTS servers for the purposes of developing better maps, dealing with the same kinds of teething problems and concerns that would come up in making a community balance mod.
Without the UWE official logo on the project or the size of a TF2 the community would need some real driving to get these things going. In the end, a combined balance and map effort would make far more sense and draw far more serious investment than some half-hearted community map testing which is little more than a side-show in the scheme of things.
The area we really could use community support with are new maps. Maps take a very long time, and are a ridiculous amount of work, so we cannot be cranking them out at the pace we'd like, and would love to fill out the official map list with more quality community maps. I remember Valve mentioning that there was a period of a year where they had no artists/mappers on TF2, as all the new content was coming from the community. To that end we've been spending some time fixing bugs and adding features to the level editor, to whip it into better shape for both our own internal mappers and for any community mappers brave enough to take on an NS2 map.
Additionally, we've always accepted code bug fixes and small feature additions from the community, as long as the code is at a quality that can be integrated directly into the game.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's almost definitely not a "one or the other" scenario. Very few of the people who could tweak the code base and build a balance mod are going to run off and make maps for you, and likewise very few of the talented mappers are going to run off and make a balance mod instead.
Here is how I see it: If the game sucks and is unfun, it is my own fault for spending money on it. Take the Mass Effect 3 controversy. I bought that game on release and the ending was abysmal. Do I regret spending money on it? Yes. Does Bioware or EA owe me? No, they don't. That was Bioware's creative license to do with as they will. The only thing they owe you from a business standpoint is that the game runs on anything meeting or exceeding the minimum requirements (and it doesn't even have to run well sadly). If the game you purchased does not run at all despite meeting the minimum, then you have grounds for a refund. We as consumers need to research more before we make purchases. If I am dissatisfied with something I have bought, then well, live and learn. I certainly can ask for a refund but in no way would I be surprised if I don't get it. It is on the business to decide if giving me my money back is worth the effort to generate that consumer goodwill which in turn can mean another possible sale down the line with another product.
"Gamer entitlement" is strictly this, thinking that the company owes you anything more than a functional game. Fun is subjective and claiming that a company is obligated to you because you did not enjoy their product the same way others did is ridiculous. Should they want to provide you with a fun experience? Absolutely. That is the basis of games, you want people to have fun. However, they cannot please everyone individually as it is strictly impossible. This comes back to research. Before you make a purchase, you should know what you are buying. The notion of spending money on something and "expecting" it to be up to your par is outlandish. Never assume, rather research, research, research.
<!--quoteo(post=2045735:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 14 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure how mappers feel right now, but if I was to start mapping right now I'd greatly appreciate some updated mapping guidelines. The last update is back from 2010 and is probably in no way up to date.
Also, as building maps is a long process, some future targets are handy too. Are the weldable/breakable doorways going to be in, what else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd agree with mapping guidelines being updated. I am also super excited Steve is giving the editor some love. Hopefully some of the more tedious processes in mapping get a little more streamlined to churn them out faster. I have a half finished map I should get back to.
The area we really could use community support with are new maps. Maps take a very long time, and are a ridiculous amount of work, so we cannot be cranking them out at the pace we'd like, and would love to fill out the official map list with more quality community maps. I remember Valve mentioning that there was a period of a year where they had no artists/mappers on TF2, as all the new content was coming from the community. To that end we've been spending some time fixing bugs and adding features to the level editor, to whip it into better shape for both our own internal mappers and for any community mappers brave enough to take on an NS2 map.
Additionally, we've always accepted code bug fixes and small feature additions from the community, as long as the code is at a quality that can be integrated directly into the game.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Word of warning, this post reads <i>completely</i> differently out of context (for example, on <a href="http://play4dead.com/ns2/" target="_blank">http://play4dead.com/ns2/</a>). Before I went back and read the rest of this thread, I had honestly gotten the impression you were directing a software developer to either stop contributing or become a map artist instead.
After reading the rest of the thread, I found myself wanting to applaud you for having stayed so calm and constructive despite the contents of this thread.
I'm concerned that anybody else coming in from an external dev-tracker may experience similar confusion to mine.