savant doesn't get it, nor does he understand my analogies. It doesn't matter if a skulk can take down an exo in 7 sec, that's not the problem. Nor does it mean every single skulk will be able to kill an exo. This 1v1 comparisons while disregarding all the other aspects of the game is a silly way to determine balance (this isn't pokemon). By his logic it should just be aliens v aliens or marines v marines.
A supported exo means friendlies with welders, jp/shotties, anything to keep a skulk from crawling all over it.
More of the balance issues I think are with maps. I just saw on last fridays show match a phase gate remain unpowered because it was too far from the lava falls power node (or something, wasabione didn't even know for sure). It basically prevented the marines from making a surprise push and the aliens cleaned up the subsequently closer placed phase gate.
Perhaps better placed power nodes, especially in tech points?
What about making extractors be self-powered? Lava falls power node won't dictate the viability of two geographically separated resource nodes. But it still is vital to marines building?
<!--quoteo(post=2050271:date=Dec 24 2012, 03:30 AM:name=soccerguy243)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (soccerguy243 @ Dec 24 2012, 03:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->savant doesn't get it, nor does he understand my analogies. It doesn't matter if a skulk can take down an exo in 7 sec, that's not a problem. By his logic it should just be aliens v aliens or marines v marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, he wants skulk to need a 'reload' every 5th bite. As well as a threefold increase in exo hp (to bring 7 seconds to 30 seconds).
<!--quoteo(post=2050271:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:30 PM:name=soccerguy243)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (soccerguy243 @ Dec 23 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->savant doesn't get it, nor does he understand my analogies. It doesn't matter if a skulk can take down an exo in 7 sec, that's not the problem. Nor does it mean every single skulk will be able to kill an exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, I get it just fine, you don't get the fact that the EXO and the Onos both are the highest level unit in the game, and they are the most expensive and the most powerful - except that they are not balanced. It's like giving one team a tank the other team an APC and saying "well you can weld the APC so it must be balanced". No, it's not. The Onos and the EXO don't need to be identical, they just need to be comparable in health and damage. IE, how long does it take to kill one, and how fast does it take one of those to kill a hive or command chair. The answers to those questions should be very close together. They should both take roughly the same amount of time/effort to be destroyed by the enemy, and they should both kill the hive/CC in roughly the same amount of time as well.
This actually reminds me of the debate we had in NS1 about the machine gun. (If you're not aware, in NS1 the heavy armor was just that, armor only, the gun was separate, and so a regular marine could buy it and use it with a jetpack for example) At one point you could have two guys with machine guns and jetpacks go out and they could kill a hive faster than FOUR siege engines. One could say that because those marines are so easy to kill (no heavy armor when you have a jetpack on) that this was 'balanced', but it was not. It got to the point that alien teams would need to have a Lerk always on the ready to umbra the hive to help it survive while it was being attacked, or else aliens wouldn't have a chance. The hive was too easy to kill by 'basic' marines, and so this was adjusted.
The EXO is too easy to kill by 'basic' aliens. If the Onos was just as easy to kill, and if the Onos needed to have gorges constantly healing it in order to survive against a single marine, then I would have no problem with that 'balance'. It's not though. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A supported exo means friendlies with welders, jp/shotties, anything to keep a skulk from crawling all over it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No one should have to spend their gameplay just walking around with a welder out and pressing M1. That's not 'fun'. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
If you think that's 'fun' to do, go for it, most people would disagree. Yes the EXO might need welding, but it shouldn't need to have welders glued to it to survive, and that is how it is right now. Spending all your time standing around with a welder out and pressing M1 is not fun. No one should be forced to spend their game time doing something so lame and boring. Maybe someone who welds stuff in real life might find that 'exciting gameplay', but I don't. That's why the EXO is just a big liability and not useful in organized play.
I'm not going to reply to any more EXO posts in this thread since it's taking the thread off-topic. I'd be happy to debate how broken the EXO is in another thread, so feel free to create one and I'll pop in. Fair enough?
<!--quoteo(post=2050252:date=Dec 23 2012, 07:26 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EXOs aren't tanks. If played NS1 you would know they are heavy armor suits. Basically a stock marine with more armor protection and more firepower. The ARC is what you could call a 'tank' and I *do* agree that the ARC should never go out without support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the poorest ######ing argument I've seen in a long time.
The exoskeleton costs either 50 or 75 Pres/Tres.. why the ###### would you not support it with free units to keep the other "free units" from possibly damaging it. It's a huge resource investment and should never try to go solo the entire alien team unless it's part of some grand strategy to provide a diversion play.
Saying it's not like a tank in some sort of technical perspective makes my ######ing brain hurt it's so stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=2050314:date=Dec 23 2012, 10:25 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No one should have to spend their gameplay just walking around with a welder out and pressing M1. That's not 'fun'. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Determine "fun", all ######ing Gorges do in engagements is the exact same thing. Some people like to be support and do their part that way. Even in competitive games, welding each other is a big part of the teamwork and can be pretty fun in intense engagements/pushes.
Who are you to judge what's fun and what's not in regards to "all public players".
You seem to be like "speaking for the pubbers" but I've seen and heard plenty of public players enjoying those exact things.
Your arguments are really poor in general but these struck me as the worst.
<!--quoteo(post=2050275:date=Dec 23 2012, 08:34 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 23 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050275"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically, he wants skulk to need a 'reload' every 5th bite. As well as a threefold increase in exo hp (to bring 7 seconds to 30 seconds).
*That, or <b>reduce</b> onos hp by 66%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long story short, he has no grasp of actual balance or how the game works at all and how those things if they were to be implemented would effect the overall balance of the game in other ways.
<!--quoteo(post=2050252:date=Dec 23 2012, 07:26 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My 7 second quote was for a 580 armor EXO. If you take out a 'stock' EXO, with 400 armor, he goes down in <b>5 seconds</b> versus a single skulk. Still balanced? Heh. Sorry, you'll never convince me of that with these kinds of numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, sorry NS2 actually requires skill to be effective as any class/unit. So if he goes down to a skulk it's his fault and has nothing to do with balance condering the Exoskeleton only needs to hit like 4 times in order to kill the skulk. What a dumb ######ing argument.
5 seconds of -75 perfect bites versus .5 seconds of Exoskeleton sustained fire.. yeah those numbers sure are convincing..
Yes, I would like to see the Onos nerfed as well, so that having three aliens go Onos simultaneously (which is almost always the case if they never spend resources on anything else) doesn't automatically mean a gg for the marines because they already need 4-5 guys to kill a single Onos. But yesterday I played a match 3 vs 3 due to a lack of players. We got Jetpacks and Weapons 3 before the aliens got Onos. I could kill an Onos 1 vs 1 as Marine with Jetpack and Shotgun just by escaping it's attacks and chasing it if it got low on health. Anecdotal evidence ftw. (The tide turned as soon as it was 2 Onos vs 2 Marines, though, regardless of us using Exos.)
However, this thread is not the place to discuss that. This is about the News about the feedback and balancing process, not about personal balance opinions. I also wouldn't give all that much about Savant's opinion of what players want anyway. The majority of <a href="http://www.google.com/moderator/#11/e=2055e8&u=CAIQ9Jqu35SK8q5Y" target="_blank">his suggestions</a> on Google Moderator get voted down or ignored by them.
<!--quoteo(post=2050335:date=Dec 23 2012, 04:39 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Dec 23 2012, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The exoskeleton costs either 50 or 75 Pres/Tres.. why ... would you not support it with free units to keep the other "free units" from possibly damaging it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This isn't about support, it's about balance - something you fail to understand. Does an Onos need to run around with a gorge to protect himself from the potential of running into a solo marine? No. However, that's not the point. The point is that the EXO is a liability and nothing more. It brings nothing to the table because it is too easy to kill compared to the Onos. The EXO and the Onos can both kill the respective tech point structure in roughly the same amount of time, yet that same Onos has much greater survivability. That's a balance issue. Both the Onos and the EXO can kill a 'basic' opponent in the same amount of time as well, but that stock marine can't kill the Onos while the stock skulk can. That's a balance issue. Then you have the issue that the same skulk can kill the ultimate unit on the opposing team in the same amount of time as the ultimate unit on their own team. That's a balance issue. These are all balance issues.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one should have to spend their gameplay just walking around with a welder out and pressing M1. That's not 'fun'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Determine "fun"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I can tell you what is NOT fun, and it's sitting around with a welder out the entire time the EXO is out of base.
Find me one person who thinks that is 'fun'. By all means... Anyone who would find that fun probably would find <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rigs:_Over_the_Road_Racing" target="_blank">this game</a> fun. In NS, people want to be engaged in the game, not sitting with a repair tool out holding down the M1 key for minutes at a time. That is not fun. People play games to have fun. Some people seem to have forgotten that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Long story short, he has no grasp of actual balance or how the game works at all and how those things if they were to be implemented would effect the overall balance of the game in other ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, I guess you didn't notice I'm an NS playtester. I also work as a professional testing games, and I'm head of the QA department at a software publisher I cannot name because of contract restrictions. I've been doing this for almost 15 years, and I do very well thank you very much.
And before you think about replying with more insults, please consider forum policy which prohibits such behavior.
<!--quoteo(post=2049969:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 22 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why I see no point in debating the issue. I'll agree to disagree with those who don't share my opinion since all we're doing is going in circles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
A supported exo means friendlies with welders, jp/shotties, anything to keep a skulk from crawling all over it.
More of the balance issues I think are with maps. I just saw on last fridays show match a phase gate remain unpowered because it was too far from the lava falls power node (or something, wasabione didn't even know for sure). It basically prevented the marines from making a surprise push and the aliens cleaned up the subsequently closer placed phase gate.
Perhaps better placed power nodes, especially in tech points?
What about making extractors be self-powered? Lava falls power node won't dictate the viability of two geographically separated resource nodes. But it still is vital to marines building?
Just thoughts on the real issues?
?
Basically, he wants skulk to need a 'reload' every 5th bite. As well as a threefold increase in exo hp (to bring 7 seconds to 30 seconds).
*That, or <b>reduce</b> onos hp by 66%.
This actually reminds me of the debate we had in NS1 about the machine gun. (If you're not aware, in NS1 the heavy armor was just that, armor only, the gun was separate, and so a regular marine could buy it and use it with a jetpack for example) At one point you could have two guys with machine guns and jetpacks go out and they could kill a hive faster than FOUR siege engines. One could say that because those marines are so easy to kill (no heavy armor when you have a jetpack on) that this was 'balanced', but it was not. It got to the point that alien teams would need to have a Lerk always on the ready to umbra the hive to help it survive while it was being attacked, or else aliens wouldn't have a chance. The hive was too easy to kill by 'basic' marines, and so this was adjusted.
The EXO is too easy to kill by 'basic' aliens. If the Onos was just as easy to kill, and if the Onos needed to have gorges constantly healing it in order to survive against a single marine, then I would have no problem with that 'balance'. It's not though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A supported exo means friendlies with welders, jp/shotties, anything to keep a skulk from crawling all over it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No one should have to spend their gameplay just walking around with a welder out and pressing M1. That's not 'fun'. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
If you think that's 'fun' to do, go for it, most people would disagree. Yes the EXO might need welding, but it shouldn't need to have welders glued to it to survive, and that is how it is right now. Spending all your time standing around with a welder out and pressing M1 is not fun. No one should be forced to spend their game time doing something so lame and boring. Maybe someone who welds stuff in real life might find that 'exciting gameplay', but I don't. That's why the EXO is just a big liability and not useful in organized play.
I'm not going to reply to any more EXO posts in this thread since it's taking the thread off-topic. I'd be happy to debate how broken the EXO is in another thread, so feel free to create one and I'll pop in. Fair enough?
That's the poorest ######ing argument I've seen in a long time.
The exoskeleton costs either 50 or 75 Pres/Tres.. why the ###### would you not support it with free units to keep the other "free units" from possibly damaging it. It's a huge resource investment and should never try to go solo the entire alien team unless it's part of some grand strategy to provide a diversion play.
Saying it's not like a tank in some sort of technical perspective makes my ######ing brain hurt it's so stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=2050314:date=Dec 23 2012, 10:25 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No one should have to spend their gameplay just walking around with a welder out and pressing M1. That's not 'fun'. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Determine "fun", all ######ing Gorges do in engagements is the exact same thing. Some people like to be support and do their part that way. Even in competitive games, welding each other is a big part of the teamwork and can be pretty fun in intense engagements/pushes.
Who are you to judge what's fun and what's not in regards to "all public players".
You seem to be like "speaking for the pubbers" but I've seen and heard plenty of public players enjoying those exact things.
Your arguments are really poor in general but these struck me as the worst.
<!--quoteo(post=2050275:date=Dec 23 2012, 08:34 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 23 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050275"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically, he wants skulk to need a 'reload' every 5th bite. As well as a threefold increase in exo hp (to bring 7 seconds to 30 seconds).
*That, or <b>reduce</b> onos hp by 66%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long story short, he has no grasp of actual balance or how the game works at all and how those things if they were to be implemented would effect the overall balance of the game in other ways.
<!--quoteo(post=2050252:date=Dec 23 2012, 07:26 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My 7 second quote was for a 580 armor EXO. If you take out a 'stock' EXO, with 400 armor, he goes down in <b>5 seconds</b> versus a single skulk. Still balanced? Heh. Sorry, you'll never convince me of that with these kinds of numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, sorry NS2 actually requires skill to be effective as any class/unit. So if he goes down to a skulk it's his fault and has nothing to do with balance condering the Exoskeleton only needs to hit like 4 times in order to kill the skulk. What a dumb ######ing argument.
5 seconds of -75 perfect bites versus .5 seconds of Exoskeleton sustained fire.. yeah those numbers sure are convincing..
Yes, I would like to see the Onos nerfed as well, so that having three aliens go Onos simultaneously (which is almost always the case if they never spend resources on anything else) doesn't automatically mean a gg for the marines because they already need 4-5 guys to kill a single Onos.
But yesterday I played a match 3 vs 3 due to a lack of players. We got Jetpacks and Weapons 3 before the aliens got Onos. I could kill an Onos 1 vs 1 as Marine with Jetpack and Shotgun just by escaping it's attacks and chasing it if it got low on health. Anecdotal evidence ftw. (The tide turned as soon as it was 2 Onos vs 2 Marines, though, regardless of us using Exos.)
However, this thread is not the place to discuss that. This is about the News about the feedback and balancing process, not about personal balance opinions.
I also wouldn't give all that much about Savant's opinion of what players want anyway. The majority of <a href="http://www.google.com/moderator/#11/e=2055e8&u=CAIQ9Jqu35SK8q5Y" target="_blank">his suggestions</a> on Google Moderator get voted down or ignored by them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one should have to spend their gameplay just walking around with a welder out and pressing M1. That's not 'fun'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Determine "fun"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I can tell you what is NOT fun, and it's sitting around with a welder out the entire time the EXO is out of base.
Find me one person who thinks that is 'fun'. By all means... Anyone who would find that fun probably would find <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rigs:_Over_the_Road_Racing" target="_blank">this game</a> fun. In NS, people want to be engaged in the game, not sitting with a repair tool out holding down the M1 key for minutes at a time. That is not fun. People play games to have fun. Some people seem to have forgotten that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Long story short, he has no grasp of actual balance or how the game works at all and how those things if they were to be implemented would effect the overall balance of the game in other ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, I guess you didn't notice I'm an NS playtester. I also work as a professional testing games, and I'm head of the QA department at a software publisher I cannot name because of contract restrictions. I've been doing this for almost 15 years, and I do very well thank you very much.
And before you think about replying with more insults, please consider forum policy which prohibits such behavior.
you lieeeeeeeed
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->LOCKED<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->