State of Spores Post-234

ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
What do you guys think of the current Spores after the 234 change that all but removed their visibility blocking properties? I totally understand the change since obscuring vision is irritating for marines and the game has a lot of that already. However, I think the visibility obscuring is the main thing that made the crop-duster spores workable. Spore-trailing Lerks are more vulnerable than ever before now since the spore clouds do nothing to provide them with cover. If the decision is to keep them transparent then I personally think it might be time to switch back to projectile Spores. Doesn't need to be long distance like in NS1, it could use the same moving cloud mechanic as Umbra which I always thought was pretty cool and under-utilized at Hive 3. Anybody else feel this way?

Also, as a side-note I don't think we need the special spore effects that are seen by the alien team anymore, now that the ones marines see are equally transparent. Or we could just make marines see that version of spores if we think that's a cooler effect, I'm not picky.
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Comments

  • VolcanoVolcano Join Date: 2011-07-27 Member: 112496Members, Constellation
    I haven't played much of this patch but has the gorge spit all over the marines screen been removed as well
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Out of curiosity, is this a result of lowering particle quality?

    I would also prefer ranged spores if they no longer affect vision. It just puts the lerk in too much danger.

    +1 for using the same mechanic as umbra, the expanding gas could is cool!
  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
    The damage that spores do doesn't need to be compounded with something that makes it impossible to aim
  • nailertnnailertn Join Date: 2012-11-18 Member: 172301Members
    edited December 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2049394:date=Dec 21 2012, 12:49 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 21 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The damage that spores do doesn't need to be compounded with something that makes it impossible to aim<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If the goal is to nerf spores - which is the last thing I would change on lerks -, I'd rather they lowered damage or spread and kept visibility the same; that's what makes the ability unique. If the problem is the multitude of vision obscuring effects, I don't see why they would start with the one that's intentional.
  • SpaceJewSpaceJew Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
    It's probably a little too early to tell.

    I went 30-1 last night with a Spores equipped Lerk, but I attribute that to Marines that literally couldn't hit me in a hallway over any kind of changes to spores.

    To be fair, a Lerk in flight is pretty tough to see <i>without</i> spores by a lot of players. At least that's how it seems when I'm playing one, not a lot of bullets connect.
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    yes, make them projectile based, crop duster spores has been a stupid idea since forever
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2049407:date=Dec 21 2012, 04:15 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's probably a little too early to tell.

    I went 30-1 last night with a Spores equipped Lerk, but I attribute that to Marines that literally couldn't hit me in a hallway over any kind of changes to spores.

    To be fair, a Lerk in flight is pretty tough to see <i>without</i> spores by a lot of players. At least that's how it seems when I'm playing one, not a lot of bullets connect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well an experienced Lerk against a team of greens is never going to be a fair assessment. I'm not really speaking to the game balance so much as the fact that Spores just don't feel that valuable to me anymore with this change. From the alien perspective I thought they were perfect before. If we want to nerf the visibility blocking for the sake of the marines I get it, but there should be something else to compensate IMO.
  • SpaceJewSpaceJew Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
    Eh, I don't know. You have a good enough point but Umbra <i>and</i> spores was a little absurd before. In a way, less visible spores actually makes it harder for a Marine to judge the 'edges' of your death cloud. Honestly though, I didn't notice a difference last night either way. Perhaps I play with alien vision on too much =P
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I really don't understand the thought process behind this change. What problem did this change solve? When did this even become an issue?

    Even more troublesome, this is a balance change that, once again, went completely undocumented in both 234 and 235 change logs.

    The Lerk has been as balanced as it can be since the beta, what in the world was this change intended to do? Making spores more transparent may only serve to confuse new players as to why they're taking damage (albeit they'll figure it out quickly enough), but surely the intention here wasn't to help marines by removing a vision obscuring effect from the alien team, was it?

    Of all the reasons why we might be seeing a higher percentage of alien wins in public games (if we are at that), was Spore's vision obscuring effect the real cause of that? Really?

    The only other thing I can think of is that this change is somehow tied to the particle effect adjustment. And if it is, well then I guess allowing players to negate an intended effect of an ability by simply changing their settings to low is somehow balanced.

    I don't know whether I'm more frustrated by such an unnecessary change, to the most balanced of the alien lifeforms, or that it was completely undocumented. Both of these things are simply ridiculous, and I honestly don't understand how UWE can justify either decision.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited December 2012
    I really disliked the blackout spores. They are still a powerful area denial tool, they don't need to be a 100% vision blocking curtain on top of that. ;/ (plus, this being a shooter and all it just wasn't that fun.)

    But as some posted above, I'd be interested to know if this is a "bug" side-effect from the new particle quality graphics setting.
  • KwisatzHaderachKwisatzHaderach Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143872Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    <!--quoteo(post=2049421:date=Dec 21 2012, 09:33 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Dec 21 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really disliked the blackout spores. They are still a powerful area denial tool, they don't need to be a 100% vision blocking curtain on top of that. ;/ (plus, this being a shooter and all it just wasn't that fun.)

    But as some posted above, I'd be interested to know if this is a "bug" side-effect from the new particle quality graphics setting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This.

    Also, if you play the lerk as a support class and go in after the skulks, the marines attention will be occupied already. This usually gives you time for a run, or mabe even a circle while getting away without taking much damage. I lerked yesterday with spores and I think it was pretty balanced. Could be due to the inexperienced marines though...
  • rhombusrhombus Lerk Queen Join Date: 2011-06-23 Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Flamethrowers. Discuss.
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2049419:date=Dec 21 2012, 02:31 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 21 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh, I don't know. You have a good enough point but Umbra <i>and</i> spores was a little absurd before. In a way, less visible spores actually makes it harder for a Marine to judge the 'edges' of your death cloud. Honestly though, I didn't notice a difference last night either way. Perhaps I play with alien vision on too much =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    As marine I find myself dying from spores now for this exact reason. Kinda hard to tell if you're going to take damage from them until it happens.
  • ToastieToastie Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167351Members
    I'm in favor of something in between were it was before and where it is now. Basically a sort of fog effect, where you can see things nearby, but can't see down a hallway filled with spores.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2012
    Pretty sure its related to particle quality and not an intended design decision.

    Of all the visually obstructing mechanics, UWE suddenly nerfs the one that had the highest reasonable case for its existence? Unlikely this was intended imo. On the same note, this is kinda what happens when changelogs don't have a reputation of being reliably complete - never know if something was intended or not.
  • Dictator93Dictator93 Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65833Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2049437:date=Dec 21 2012, 10:05 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Dec 21 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flamethrowers. Discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is an important point.

    Flmaethrowers had the powerful ability to completely deny spores and yet spores were nerfed.

    Is this a case of an unjustified nerf because marine refuse to adapt strategies?
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Can we have ranged spores now? What sane lerk is going to spray his transparent gas around a few marines when a marine can easily 1shot it with a shotgun.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2049485:date=Dec 21 2012, 10:09 PM:name=Dictator93)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dictator93 @ Dec 21 2012, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an important point.

    Flmaethrowers had the powerful ability to completely deny spores and yet spores were nerfed.

    Is this a case of an unjustified nerf because marine refuse to adapt strategies?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But Flamethrower creates visual fog for Marines too. even when it's burning through Spores.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2012
    I never really liked flamethrowers as a spores counter to begin with. I feel like the reason flamethrowers aren't a very compelling weapon to most people is because they're not that well suited to direct combat, since they've been given such an oddball assortment of support roles instead. I think the flamethrower should be an anti-hit-and-run weapon that's primarily built to deliver a DoT effect and/or suppress heals rather than being a support weapon that does half a dozen different things.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    once again uwe is catering for the new players so as to make the game easier for those who cannot adapt and change the way they play to counter the way others play.
  • DestroidDestroid Join Date: 2011-10-25 Member: 129240Members
    The vision obstruction was the only thing that made spore good.
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    This was not an intended change. It likely is a result of the changes in particle effects optimizations, but we aren't exactly sure how and why that would have happened. Looking into it.

    --Cory
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    OH! we don't like it and it wasnt an intended change? SHuuuur cory, SHUUR. stop feeding off of our tears and demise you evil man!
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2049550:date=Dec 22 2012, 10:57 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Dec 22 2012, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was not an intended change. It likely is a result of the changes in particle effects optimizations, but we aren't exactly sure how and why that would have happened. Looking into it.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well just put ranged spores back in and all will be forgiven ;)

    Must admit I had not noticed...but have not played lerk in this patch yet (not played much of this patch at all).
  • ShrimmShrimm Join Date: 2012-10-05 Member: 161652Members
    Just wanted to comment on the ranged spores thing people are asking for. Lerk is my favorite alien class to play. It is really enjoyable to fly around always being at huge risk and being able to outmaneuver your enemies aim. Umbra and spikes are my least favorite thing on the lerk. I don't enjoy them as much because they encourage you to sit back and be an observer with nearly no risk. If spores were turned into the same style as umbra I fear the lerk would no longer ever have a reason to put itself in danger. Turning it into a far too passive lifeform. But hey that's my two cents, maybe if you want ranged spores turn umbra into a crop dust, so the lerk still has to take risk to be at it's 100% effectiveness.
  • SoulfighterSoulfighter Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167432Members
    Spore was dreadful before, it stills dreadful now. Make the trail 2 times wider and it *might* be remotely useful, right now it just make you go to close range (aka high chance of dieing against people who can aim) and anyone who's not a complete a noob will just step aside and take no dmg at all.
  • TimariusTimarius Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171220Members
    I hadn't noticed this because I set the particles back to high immediately after the patch, but this explains a lot to me. Namely, a bunch of rookies gunning down my lerk after a full dust. Spores over the entire room and filling the hallway I escaped down, and they could still shoot me through them as if they weren't there.

    Well... unless this gets fixed, I want my puffy spores back.

    And the Gorge fleshy fingers with the old tender, loving care they used to show to all of my buildings.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    The idea was that spores originally were never designed as a 'visual obstruction'. Even when spores were delivered at range you could see through them. I think the change is to reflect that the fact that it is so deadly to such a large group of marines. The developers have always said they wanted to be very careful with 'AOE' abilities since they often cause balance to go out the window. This might be part of the reason behind the change.
  • SpaceJewSpaceJew Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2049862:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 22 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea was that spores originally were never designed as a 'visual obstruction'. Even when spores were delivered at range you could see through them. I think the change is to reflect that the fact that it is so deadly to such a large group of marines. The developers have always said they wanted to be very careful with 'AOE' abilities since they often cause balance to go out the window. This might be part of the reason behind the change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--quoteo(post=2049550:date=Dec 21 2012, 05:57 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Dec 21 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was not an intended change. It likely is a result of the changes in particle effects optimizations, but we aren't exactly sure how and why that would have happened. Looking into it.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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