<!--quoteo(post=2050630:date=Dec 24 2012, 06:57 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 24 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've kicked and banned people for imbalancing what would otherwise be very good games. I have absolutely no remorse for it whatsoever. I'd rather help 23 other people enjoy themselves and learn something then give one damn about the person who could go play against other people up to his/her skill level on another server and enjoy themselves on that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its your choice, but id rather play with a low ping for the little time i choose to play ns2 than to spend half an hr hammering a 100 ping server to play with know it alls. but thats just me
<!--quoteo(post=2050635:date=Dec 24 2012, 06:10 AM:name=SmileCode)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SmileCode @ Dec 24 2012, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although I am really amazed of how much thought people have put into this small topic (and no, I am definetly not talking about you, ma$$a$$ter), what VeNeM said might be all we need to solve this problem.
Who could be capable of deciding that? <ul><li><b>Community (open Banlists)</b> - Well, certainly not. This will end in utter chaos, because these lists are not qualified to make such a decision. </li><li><b>Single Players</b> - Well, certainly not. This will end in utter chaos, because single players are not qualified to make such a decision.</li><li><b>Server Admins</b> - Not really. They can do whatever they want with their servers but they are qualified neither to make such a decision.</li></ul>
And maybe what badmoon meant to ask was if there is a "votekick"-feature in NS2. Just saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love these hypotheticals. Who gets to decide whether you know you're talking about or if you actually have any valid point or an opinion worth giving more then half a second of thought to?
To the main point being discussed: I think the idea of the community ban list is alright. I've checked it out (nothing there as of yet). I'm certainly not going to rely on it as to who is banned from my server but more from seeing if I see a familiar name that's caused problems on other servers. I think any server admin who runs a server worth playing on is going to approach that from the same angle. Any server admin who doesn't (read: kicks/bans willy nilly or lets other people influence him solely), it's probably not worth playing on their server anyway, so everyone who's gone to great lengths to defend their position on this thread wouldn't really have anything to worry about anyway and is effectively arguing against a wall. Those of us who DO run servers are going to admin them however the hell we want to, and that's basically all there is to that.
My words got quite twisted around in trying to make a point...
I never intended to make it sound like EVERY veteran player was the issue, I was using a hypothetical "high skilled" player who simply refused to acknowledge that he was the tipping point for the server he was playing on. This could be any server out their at any given moment of the day or night. Some times it's just not ok to come into a server and roll the other team. That is my point.
Honestly, you can take what I have to say any way you choose, I had some fun arguing my point. My normal sarcasm slips into my posts often, can't help that.
The general sum it up
The ban list isn't designed for "cheaters", High Kill to death reports or any butt hurt reporting.. It's designed to list disruptive, abusive, and hateful players so server operators can be aware of problems prior to having to deal with them directly. Players are more then welcome to submit their own "reports", but keep in mind they have to back them up with something other then "because I say so" (require screen shots or videos etc)
as far as "badly run community ban list" - The community runs the list, I Just host the list. You extract the data you choose, I just provide a place for it.
No single persons word is greater than another, let the totality and quality of the evidence against a player speak for it's self.
I've seen a lot of people banned from some popular servers for very unreasonable reasons. I am doubting that a community ban list will be fair to players, but instead will be used as a tool to reinforce bans by admins.
Just read the thread in the competitive forums about a dozen players being banned for "cheating" and stuff. That's the kind of crap that's going to get uploaded into a community ban list. I'm worried that it's going to turn into an echo chamber for questionable server admins.
<!--quoteo(post=2050630:date=Dec 24 2012, 05:57 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 24 2012, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've kicked and banned people for imbalancing what would otherwise be very good games. I have absolutely no remorse for it whatsoever. I'd rather help 23 other people enjoy themselves and learn something then give one damn about the person who could go play against other people up to his/her skill level on another server and enjoy themselves on that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did those 23 other players specifically say that they were not having fun because of this "imbalanced" player? If not then it seems like the only one who couldn't enjoy themselves was you. If you really get that butthurt because a player is better than you, guess what, maybe a competitive shooter like NS2 isn't the game for you. Might want to try CoD since it's more your style.
<!--quoteo(post=2050789:date=Dec 24 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Side1Bu2Rnz9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Side1Bu2Rnz9 @ Dec 24 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did those 23 other players specifically say that they were not having fun because of this "imbalanced" player? If not then it seems like the only one who couldn't enjoy themselves was you. If you really get that butthurt because a player is better than you, guess what, maybe a competitive shooter like NS2 isn't the game for you. Might want to try CoD since it's more your style.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, actually. Not every single person, but enough for me to get the gist that something needed to be done. And maybe you should realize that unlike CoD, this game is more about the team, which is exactly the reason I'll kick anyone who comes in with a CoD mentality and just wants to "pwn noobs" and make as many people as miserable as they can.
<!--quoteo(post=2050800:date=Dec 24 2012, 02:57 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 24 2012, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, actually. Not every single person, but enough for me to get the gist that something needed to be done. And maybe you should realize that unlike CoD, this game is more about the team, which is exactly the reason I'll kick anyone who comes in with a CoD mentality and just wants to "pwn noobs" and make as many people as miserable as they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2050800:date=Dec 24 2012, 01:57 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 24 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, actually. Not every single person, but enough for me to get the gist that something needed to be done. And maybe you should realize that unlike CoD, this game is more about the team, which is exactly the reason I'll kick anyone who comes in with a CoD mentality and just wants to "pwn noobs" and make as many people as miserable as they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes you think it's the skilled players' only goal in life to "pwn noobs"? Hate to break it to you, but most skilled players are just playing to have fun. They aren't even looking at their k/d ratio. They are just trying to be the best for their TEAM and if that means killing the enemy then so be it. Oh and I'm pretty sure it was not even half the "23" people who were complaining that they were getting outplayed. I've yet to meet a team who was upset that one of their members had a positive k/d ratio. So you're basing your decision to ban a player off of not even half the total server population... To be honest it was probably just you and a couple other people upset that you were lossing and getting outplayed. Sad day, but like I said before if you want an even playing field where it's a lot harder to be outplayed, play CoD.
I'd do the same thing if I saw a guy who is consistently 50-1 on my server, regardless of whether he or she was cheating or not (don't run a server but have seen someone go 47-1 on a ten minute game before and he was the only person with double digit kills). Fact of the matter is that people don't like dying over and over again. It's especially infuriating when players do this on a rookie server and just tell the other team to learn to play or get annoyed when I give basic tips or advices from spectate.
<!--quoteo(post=2050800:date=Dec 24 2012, 02:57 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 24 2012, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, actually. Not every single person, but enough for me to get the gist that something needed to be done. And maybe you should realize that unlike CoD, this game is more about the team, which is exactly the reason I'll kick anyone who comes in with a CoD mentality and just wants to "pwn noobs" and make as many people as miserable as they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, they were complaining because they were losing. Losing sucks. Even pubbers who only ever 'play for fun' don't have fun when they're losing.
But, as you said, NS2 is a team game. Why didn't your team better coordinate to kill/avoid the good player? NS2 is a dynamic team-based game. When one player is better than everyone else, it's up to the other team to see if they can adjust strategy and still win. You'll be at a disadvantage, that's for sure, but victory is still possible.
You're obviously in the 'kick this player and be done with it' camp. You can run your server however you want to, that's why it's called 'your server.' Just keep in mind, good players become unstoppable killing machines when they are going against a horrible team. The enemy team needs to recognize they're outskilled and adjust tactics accordingly.
It's not the good players fault for 'ruining the game' or 'unbalancing the game.' In pub environments, the game's structure allows lesser skilled teams to win. Whenever a team loses, it's almost always their fault.
<!--quoteo(post=2050832:date=Dec 24 2012, 04:04 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 24 2012, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd do the same thing if I saw a guy who is consistently 50-1 on my server, regardless of whether he or she was cheating or not (don't run a server but have seen someone go 47-1 on a ten minute game before and he was the only person with double digit kills). Fact of the matter is that people don't like dying over and over again. It's especially infuriating when players do this on a rookie server and just tell the other team to learn to play or get annoyed when I give basic tips or advices from spectate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Get better at video games?
<!--quoteo(post=2050828:date=Dec 24 2012, 02:59 PM:name=Side1Bu2Rnz9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Side1Bu2Rnz9 @ Dec 24 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What makes you think it's the skilled players' only goal in life to "pwn noobs"? Hate to break it to you, but most skilled players are just playing to have fun. They aren't even looking at their k/d ratio. They are just trying to be the best for their TEAM and if that means killing the enemy then so be it. Oh and I'm pretty sure it was not even half the "23" people who were complaining that they were getting outplayed. I've yet to meet a team who was upset that one of their members had a positive k/d ratio. So you're basing your decision to ban a player off of not even half the total server population... To be honest it was probably just you and a couple other people upset that you were lossing and getting outplayed. Sad day, but like I said before if you want an even playing field where it's a lot harder to be outplayed, play CoD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep interjecting these terms "you" in there to prop up your point, but it's not about "me". This is pretty much the fundamental difference between the way good admins and players look at this. I don't care about any individual's "rights" on my server, all I give a damn about is making it a place that as many people as possible enjoy playing on. Personally I can stack up against pretty much anyone who plays on my server. I don't get "outskilled" very often. But I also know I run a rookie server, and I get green tags alot. I'd rather make the experience better for those 5, 6 or more then give any thought to the one guy running around making a mockery of the competition. And I garauntee you I could get most any of my regulars on here to attest that even tho I'm not a perfect admin, I see enough returning faces to know that what I'm doing works. I'll debate stuff like that on here, because it's a forums. But in the end, I paid money out of my own pocket to run it as I see fit, and we're back to my point of people like you essentially arguing against a wall. But you go ahead and keep "assuming" and those of us who actually think past clicking on a server to join will do the big boy thinking for you.
<!--quoteo(post=2050837:date=Dec 24 2012, 04:13 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Dec 24 2012, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Get better at video games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that's the right mentality to have. Instead of telling a sea of greens to not just charge a rine in a straight line, we should all just say, "get better."
<!--quoteo(post=2050835:date=Dec 24 2012, 03:11 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Dec 24 2012, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, they were complaining because they were losing. Losing sucks. Even pubbers who only ever 'play for fun' don't have fun when they're losing.
But, as you said, NS2 is a team game. Why didn't your team better coordinate to kill/avoid the good player? NS2 is a dynamic team-based game. When one player is better than everyone else, it's up to the other team to see if they can adjust strategy and still win. You'll be at a disadvantage, that's for sure, but victory is still possible.
You're obviously in the 'kick this player and be done with it' camp. You can run your server however you want to, that's why it's called 'your server.' Just keep in mind, good players become unstoppable killing machines when they are going against a horrible team. The enemy team needs to recognize they're outskilled and adjust tactics accordingly.
It's not the good players fault for 'ruining the game' or 'unbalancing the game.' In pub environments, the game's structure allows lesser skilled teams to win. Whenever a team loses, it's almost always their fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never said it was their fault. And I don't hold anything personal against any of them, but I'm still going to handle business which is all that boils down to. And like the other individual, you can assume you know what complaints were about but you're talking out of your ass end just as much as he was.
<!--quoteo(post=2050840:date=Dec 24 2012, 04:18 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 24 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Never said it was their fault. And I don't hold anything personal against any of them, but I'm still going to handle business which is all that boils down to. And like the other individual, you can assume you know what complaints were about but you're talking out of your ass end just as much as he was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ease up the hostility, it's very clear you feel like you're under attack. Notice how my post was devoid of hostility?
I may not know the the specific reason why complaints were made, but I know the vast majority of players become frustrated when they lose a one sided game. Frustration leads to complaints. When they see someone who is 50-1; it's a clear target.
As I said, it's your server. Ban them all you want.
The other option is to use the features the game provides (communication tools, gameplay mechanics like power nodes) to bypass or overcome that skilled player and still pull out a win.
Either way is fine, I don't care what you do.
One of the reasons people play games is for a challenge. A 50-0 player doesn't come along everyday. The opportunity allows the other plays to play different styles or observe the better player to pick up tips.
Again, the other option is to ban this person. That's fine too.
<!--quoteo(post=2050839:date=Dec 24 2012, 01:16 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 24 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, that's the right mentality to have. Instead of telling a sea of greens to not just charge a rine in a straight line, we should all just say, "get better."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, they're saying "get better" here because you, and the other 2 people arguing for this, are ignoring them every time they point out they aren't some evil group of people out to ruin peoples fun. That this is a competition, a skill based game that doesn't have a tier system. The object is to get better. Maybe not at all costs, but yeah, people don't play on pubs in the vague hope they get worse. Do you?
I know this is baffling to comprehend, but skilled players don't spend their time mowing down sea's of greenies, cackling madly and screaming "YOU ARE SO TERRIBLE ITS LAUGHABLE". I'd say 80% of the time they're just quietly playing and offering advice if solicited. The other 20% is split between the bad eggs who are abrasive, worth of admin attention and the good eggs who actively try to improve players.
Stop assuming, pigeon holing or otherwise labeling skill to mean arrogance, ill-intent, poor attitudes, or whatever concoction y'all can come up with. If a skilled player is playing legitimately in a pub, while breaking no rules of the pub.. it's the servers owners right to kick them. That doesn't make you any less moronic for it.
Well maybe if you stop ranting and actually READ my initial post, you'd realize that I point out a very specific case of annoying players. You are the only one making the assumption here.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's especially infuriating when players do this on a rookie server and just tell the other team to learn to play or get annoyed when I give basic tips or advices from spectate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have ran into literally dozens of matches where this happened ever since the winter sales, so this is from personal experience, not talking out of my ass. I know it's baffling for you to comprehend, but there are people out there that actually do this. I did hop in the opposite team a few times. Won some, lost some. In the end though, I doubt my teammates learned much other than listening to me yelling at them telling them where to go. Would have probably learned more if I was just chillaxing in spectate telling them to press 3 to bilebomb or to prioritize upgrades over hives.
Regardless, that's besides the point. People don't like dying. I'm a trial by fire type of guy, but that doesn't mean your average player is. If I were an admin, I'd rather have ######ty teams play one another and have them learn from one another's mistakes rather than having one guy obliterate anything that came his way match after match. Yea, they'll learn one way or another, but they are much less likely to quit when their average encounter time last over 0.5 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2050845:date=Dec 24 2012, 03:26 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 24 2012, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop assuming, pigeon holing or otherwise labeling skill to mean arrogance, ill-intent, poor attitudes, or whatever concoction y'all can come up with. If a skilled player is playing legitimately in a pub, while breaking no rules of the pub.. it's the servers owners right to kick them. That doesn't make you any less moronic for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody here is, you're the one who keeps assuming that's what we're saying. What we're saying is it doesn't matter, because the end result is still the same either way: too many people can't enjoy themselves. If people start leaving the server because they can't cope with that individual's skill, I'd rather act to stop 6 people leaving then care about kicking one. It's really that simple.
<!--quoteo(post=2050842:date=Dec 24 2012, 03:22 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Dec 24 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ease up the hostility, it's very clear you feel like you're under attack. Notice how my post was devoid of hostility?
I may not know the the specific reason why complaints were made, but I know the vast majority of players become frustrated when they lose a one sided game. Frustration leads to complaints. When they see someone who is 50-1; it's a clear target.
As I said, it's your server. Ban them all you want.
The other option is to use the features the game provides (communication tools, gameplay mechanics like power nodes) to bypass or overcome that skilled player and still pull out a win.
Either way is fine, I don't care what you do.
One of the reasons people play games is for a challenge. A 50-0 player doesn't come along everyday. The opportunity allows the other plays to play different styles or observe the better player to pick up tips.
Again, the other option is to ban this person. That's fine too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually only ban the ones who come back and try to make a big deal out of it, which ends up being roughly a quarter of them maybe. I don't have the time or inclination to argue with people while I'm trying to play and admin.
Most of the time it's just like I say. Catch me in a bad mood or less tolerant mood, well I'm human just like the next guy. I'm sure my banning you hasn't stopped your NS2 experience at any rate.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Read every post. Good points on either side of the fence. Matchmaking or some form of it (with a comprehensive point system) would really diminish the chances of what Mavick describes and encounters, from occurring. ::looks at ns2stats::
ZeframJoin Date: 2004-05-11Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2050925:date=Dec 24 2012, 10:58 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Dec 24 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->::looks at ns2stats::<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the last Tuesday afternoon Q&A, Charlie did mention he's looking into some sort of possible stats/ranking system. This could be good or bad for gameplay, depending on how it's implemented and how players react to a persistent leaderboard outside of their particular rounds.
If my vote mattered, I'd suggest a style very similar to any other heavily team based game (DOTA/HON comes to mind). A basic PSR/ELO that is adjusted purely off round win/loss. Leave everything else, like score and K/D, out of it.
Concerning skill based banning... Most of the time the problem leading to "noob-pwnage" is not that one overskilled guy but more these over-the-top guys who STACK team. The answer to this from an admin point of view should not be banning the best players but rather try to get the teams more even with auto-random or something.
<!--quoteo(post=2050989:date=Dec 25 2012, 05:50 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 25 2012, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The amount of disappointment in the community that I've received from this thread is unparalleled.
Bans and kicks are for people who are cheating or being really really negative towards everyone. End of story<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know why you guys are getting so bent out of shape over it really. If you happened to get kicked for it it doesn't stop you from playing the game, you just have to go somewhere else. And it's not like you're losing any accomplishments. Hell, if it really DID bother you that bad I'd rather not have you around anyway.
Truth is, I haven't even had to do an imbalance kick in awhile. Many of the regulars on my server have now played the game long enough that even when someone really, really good joins there's a high chance there's at least a few people on the other team to deal with them. Just because someone brings something up that might seem so out there and unpopular with some of you doesn't mean it's something that's being done several times a day. Having a server for 2 months and the hundreds of players that have come across it, and only having 21 bans on it should tell you the averages of coming up against it on a server that's ran like mine.
It's disappointing because it shows a large contingent of server operators in an already extremely small community are (to no one's surprise) total sh-i-tbags and only worthy of ridicule, public shaming, and mockery. Whether it's happening often or not is irrelevant. The fact that you think it's a respectable and downright necessary thing to do makes you <strike>look like</strike> a tool.
Comments
its your choice, but id rather play with a low ping for the little time i choose to play ns2 than to spend half an hr hammering a 100 ping server to play with know it alls. but thats just me
Who could be capable of deciding that?
<ul><li><b>Community (open Banlists)</b> - Well, certainly not. This will end in utter chaos, because these lists are not qualified to make such a decision. </li><li><b>Single Players</b> - Well, certainly not. This will end in utter chaos, because single players are not qualified to make such a decision.</li><li><b>Server Admins</b> - Not really. They can do whatever they want with their servers but they are qualified neither to make such a decision.</li></ul>
And maybe what badmoon meant to ask was if there is a "votekick"-feature in NS2. Just saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love these hypotheticals. Who gets to decide whether you know you're talking about or if you actually have any valid point or an opinion worth giving more then half a second of thought to?
To the main point being discussed: I think the idea of the community ban list is alright. I've checked it out (nothing there as of yet). I'm certainly not going to rely on it as to who is banned from my server but more from seeing if I see a familiar name that's caused problems on other servers. I think any server admin who runs a server worth playing on is going to approach that from the same angle. Any server admin who doesn't (read: kicks/bans willy nilly or lets other people influence him solely), it's probably not worth playing on their server anyway, so everyone who's gone to great lengths to defend their position on this thread wouldn't really have anything to worry about anyway and is effectively arguing against a wall. Those of us who DO run servers are going to admin them however the hell we want to, and that's basically all there is to that.
I never intended to make it sound like EVERY veteran player was the issue, I was using a hypothetical "high skilled" player who simply refused to acknowledge that he was the tipping point for the server he was playing on. This could be any server out their at any given moment of the day or night. Some times it's just not ok to come into a server and roll the other team. That is my point.
Honestly, you can take what I have to say any way you choose, I had some fun arguing my point. My normal sarcasm slips into my posts often, can't help that.
The general sum it up
The ban list isn't designed for "cheaters", High Kill to death reports or any butt hurt reporting.. It's designed to list disruptive, abusive, and hateful players so server operators can be aware of problems prior to having to deal with them directly. Players are more then welcome to submit their own "reports", but keep in mind they have to back them up with something other then "because I say so" (require screen shots or videos etc)
as far as "badly run community ban list" - The community runs the list, I Just host the list. You extract the data you choose, I just provide a place for it.
No single persons word is greater than another, let the totality and quality of the evidence against a player speak for it's self.
Just read the thread in the competitive forums about a dozen players being banned for "cheating" and stuff. That's the kind of crap that's going to get uploaded into a community ban list. I'm worried that it's going to turn into an echo chamber for questionable server admins.
Did those 23 other players specifically say that they were not having fun because of this "imbalanced" player? If not then it seems like the only one who couldn't enjoy themselves was you. If you really get that butthurt because a player is better than you, guess what, maybe a competitive shooter like NS2 isn't the game for you. Might want to try CoD since it's more your style.
Yes, actually. Not every single person, but enough for me to get the gist that something needed to be done. And maybe you should realize that unlike CoD, this game is more about the team, which is exactly the reason I'll kick anyone who comes in with a CoD mentality and just wants to "pwn noobs" and make as many people as miserable as they can.
aka being better than them
What makes you think it's the skilled players' only goal in life to "pwn noobs"? Hate to break it to you, but most skilled players are just playing to have fun. They aren't even looking at their k/d ratio. They are just trying to be the best for their TEAM and if that means killing the enemy then so be it. Oh and I'm pretty sure it was not even half the "23" people who were complaining that they were getting outplayed. I've yet to meet a team who was upset that one of their members had a positive k/d ratio. So you're basing your decision to ban a player off of not even half the total server population... To be honest it was probably just you and a couple other people upset that you were lossing and getting outplayed. Sad day, but like I said before if you want an even playing field where it's a lot harder to be outplayed, play CoD.
Honestly, they were complaining because they were losing. Losing sucks. Even pubbers who only ever 'play for fun' don't have fun when they're losing.
But, as you said, NS2 is a team game. Why didn't your team better coordinate to kill/avoid the good player? NS2 is a dynamic team-based game. When one player is better than everyone else, it's up to the other team to see if they can adjust strategy and still win. You'll be at a disadvantage, that's for sure, but victory is still possible.
You're obviously in the 'kick this player and be done with it' camp. You can run your server however you want to, that's why it's called 'your server.' Just keep in mind, good players become unstoppable killing machines when they are going against a horrible team. The enemy team needs to recognize they're outskilled and adjust tactics accordingly.
It's not the good players fault for 'ruining the game' or 'unbalancing the game.' In pub environments, the game's structure allows lesser skilled teams to win. Whenever a team loses, it's almost always their fault.
Get better at video games?
You keep interjecting these terms "you" in there to prop up your point, but it's not about "me". This is pretty much the fundamental difference between the way good admins and players look at this. I don't care about any individual's "rights" on my server, all I give a damn about is making it a place that as many people as possible enjoy playing on. Personally I can stack up against pretty much anyone who plays on my server. I don't get "outskilled" very often. But I also know I run a rookie server, and I get green tags alot. I'd rather make the experience better for those 5, 6 or more then give any thought to the one guy running around making a mockery of the competition. And I garauntee you I could get most any of my regulars on here to attest that even tho I'm not a perfect admin, I see enough returning faces to know that what I'm doing works. I'll debate stuff like that on here, because it's a forums. But in the end, I paid money out of my own pocket to run it as I see fit, and we're back to my point of people like you essentially arguing against a wall. But you go ahead and keep "assuming" and those of us who actually think past clicking on a server to join will do the big boy thinking for you.
Yes, that's the right mentality to have. Instead of telling a sea of greens to not just charge a rine in a straight line, we should all just say, "get better."
But, as you said, NS2 is a team game. Why didn't your team better coordinate to kill/avoid the good player? NS2 is a dynamic team-based game. When one player is better than everyone else, it's up to the other team to see if they can adjust strategy and still win. You'll be at a disadvantage, that's for sure, but victory is still possible.
You're obviously in the 'kick this player and be done with it' camp. You can run your server however you want to, that's why it's called 'your server.' Just keep in mind, good players become unstoppable killing machines when they are going against a horrible team. The enemy team needs to recognize they're outskilled and adjust tactics accordingly.
It's not the good players fault for 'ruining the game' or 'unbalancing the game.' In pub environments, the game's structure allows lesser skilled teams to win. Whenever a team loses, it's almost always their fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never said it was their fault. And I don't hold anything personal against any of them, but I'm still going to handle business which is all that boils down to. And like the other individual, you can assume you know what complaints were about but you're talking out of your ass end just as much as he was.
Ease up the hostility, it's very clear you feel like you're under attack. Notice how my post was devoid of hostility?
I may not know the the specific reason why complaints were made, but I know the vast majority of players become frustrated when they lose a one sided game. Frustration leads to complaints. When they see someone who is 50-1; it's a clear target.
As I said, it's your server. Ban them all you want.
The other option is to use the features the game provides (communication tools, gameplay mechanics like power nodes) to bypass or overcome that skilled player and still pull out a win.
Either way is fine, I don't care what you do.
One of the reasons people play games is for a challenge. A 50-0 player doesn't come along everyday. The opportunity allows the other plays to play different styles or observe the better player to pick up tips.
Again, the other option is to ban this person. That's fine too.
No, they're saying "get better" here because you, and the other 2 people arguing for this, are ignoring them every time they point out they aren't some evil group of people out to ruin peoples fun. That this is a competition, a skill based game that doesn't have a tier system. The object is to get better. Maybe not at all costs, but yeah, people don't play on pubs in the vague hope they get worse. Do you?
I know this is baffling to comprehend, but skilled players don't spend their time mowing down sea's of greenies, cackling madly and screaming "YOU ARE SO TERRIBLE ITS LAUGHABLE". I'd say 80% of the time they're just quietly playing and offering advice if solicited. The other 20% is split between the bad eggs who are abrasive, worth of admin attention and the good eggs who actively try to improve players.
Stop assuming, pigeon holing or otherwise labeling skill to mean arrogance, ill-intent, poor attitudes, or whatever concoction y'all can come up with. If a skilled player is playing legitimately in a pub, while breaking no rules of the pub.. it's the servers owners right to kick them. That doesn't make you any less moronic for it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's especially infuriating when players do this on a rookie server and just tell the other team to learn to play or get annoyed when I give basic tips or advices from spectate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have ran into literally dozens of matches where this happened ever since the winter sales, so this is from personal experience, not talking out of my ass. I know it's baffling for you to comprehend, but there are people out there that actually do this. I did hop in the opposite team a few times. Won some, lost some. In the end though, I doubt my teammates learned much other than listening to me yelling at them telling them where to go. Would have probably learned more if I was just chillaxing in spectate telling them to press 3 to bilebomb or to prioritize upgrades over hives.
Regardless, that's besides the point. People don't like dying. I'm a trial by fire type of guy, but that doesn't mean your average player is. If I were an admin, I'd rather have ######ty teams play one another and have them learn from one another's mistakes rather than having one guy obliterate anything that came his way match after match. Yea, they'll learn one way or another, but they are much less likely to quit when their average encounter time last over 0.5 seconds.
Nobody here is, you're the one who keeps assuming that's what we're saying. What we're saying is it doesn't matter, because the end result is still the same either way: too many people can't enjoy themselves. If people start leaving the server because they can't cope with that individual's skill, I'd rather act to stop 6 people leaving then care about kicking one. It's really that simple.
I may not know the the specific reason why complaints were made, but I know the vast majority of players become frustrated when they lose a one sided game. Frustration leads to complaints. When they see someone who is 50-1; it's a clear target.
As I said, it's your server. Ban them all you want.
The other option is to use the features the game provides (communication tools, gameplay mechanics like power nodes) to bypass or overcome that skilled player and still pull out a win.
Either way is fine, I don't care what you do.
One of the reasons people play games is for a challenge. A 50-0 player doesn't come along everyday. The opportunity allows the other plays to play different styles or observe the better player to pick up tips.
Again, the other option is to ban this person. That's fine too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually only ban the ones who come back and try to make a big deal out of it, which ends up being roughly a quarter of them maybe. I don't have the time or inclination to argue with people while I'm trying to play and admin.
Matchmaking or some form of it (with a comprehensive point system) would really diminish the chances of what Mavick describes and encounters, from occurring.
::looks at ns2stats::
At the last Tuesday afternoon Q&A, Charlie did mention he's looking into some sort of possible stats/ranking system. This could be good or bad for gameplay, depending on how it's implemented and how players react to a persistent leaderboard outside of their particular rounds.
Most of the time the problem leading to "noob-pwnage" is not that one overskilled guy but more these over-the-top guys who STACK team. The answer to this from an admin point of view should not be banning the best players but rather try to get the teams more even with auto-random or something.
Bans and kicks are for people who are cheating or being really really negative towards everyone. End of story
Bans and kicks are for people who are cheating or being really really negative towards everyone. End of story<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know why you guys are getting so bent out of shape over it really. If you happened to get kicked for it it doesn't stop you from playing the game, you just have to go somewhere else. And it's not like you're losing any accomplishments. Hell, if it really DID bother you that bad I'd rather not have you around anyway.
Truth is, I haven't even had to do an imbalance kick in awhile. Many of the regulars on my server have now played the game long enough that even when someone really, really good joins there's a high chance there's at least a few people on the other team to deal with them. Just because someone brings something up that might seem so out there and unpopular with some of you doesn't mean it's something that's being done several times a day. Having a server for 2 months and the hundreds of players that have come across it, and only having 21 bans on it should tell you the averages of coming up against it on a server that's ran like mine.