<!--quoteo(post=2049794:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:00 AM:name=m0rd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m0rd @ Dec 22 2012, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good points otherwise, but as stated the game really isn't meant for 12v12's. They shouldn't be taken seriously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell that to the 6 or so full 24/24 slot servers on right now at peak hours.
<!--quoteo(post=2049895:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:29 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess the question UWE should ask themselves is if they're willing to adjust the 'official' game code for the actions of a few rogue server admins. I'm guessing the answer is no, since there has been nothing but dead silence on this issue since the Shift had a cool down and cost increase slapped onto it. (Which was the only in-game solution to low egg spawns on one hive in large servers. Admittedly, this was broken in other situations, but it was a 'fix' as Alien commander for what Server admins put in place.)
Remember that server that had like a 60 or a 100 player max? It's a more extreme example, but there is <i>no way</i> UWE should be on the hook for supporting that type of lunacy. 12v12 is a full four extra people <i>per team</i> than the game was 'balanced' for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's wrong with a 50v50 server? Why can't the game have variables that change slowly with the amount of players on a server so that it remains balanced throughout?
Artificially limiting game mechanics to one game mode or another is not the reason NS1 was the best and most popular HL1 mod 6 years after it was released.
<!--quoteo(post=2049905:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 22 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When people literally warp it's typically because their computers are terrible. That's one aspect of NS2's netcode which genuinely <i>does </i>need fixing. Instead of smoothly translating between locations (even though they'd be wobbly and rubberbandy) their location instantly snaps to a location a few feet away.
Personally I don't experience the delay you mention at all, so it's also possible that experiencing the delay only happens on poor computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't worry about calling my computer poor, i assure you it's far more powerful than average players of this game.
<!--quoteo(post=2049927:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:27 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 22 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A minority of players play on 16 player (or less) servers. Hit up the server browser and see for yourself. Sort by player count and you'll see just how many larger servers there are - most all of them FULL all the time.
The players have spoken.
It's about time we start listening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah i didn't even turn off my filters to look i just realized, there's tons and tons of 12v12 servers full to the brim. Words of wisdom guys, listen to this guy.
<!--quoteo(post=2049930:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:37 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good points, and I tend to agree with you. However, what moving target of server size do you want it balanced for? You could completely redo the game and base things off a 32 player server, and a lot of people might like that better, but is it UWE's job to balance that or the server admins that are doing something that they <i>already know</i> is going to be more or less imbalanced than the vanilla game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not just make various aspects of the game vital to balance scale depending on the number of players? Start with the game as-is at the 6v6/8v8 level and then add a bit of scaling depending on the player count. Not difficult at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2049932:date=Dec 22 2012, 03:40 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 22 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell that to the 6 or so full 24/24 slot servers on right now at peak hours.
What's wrong with a 50v50 server? Why can't the game have variables that change slowly with the amount of players on a server so that it remains balanced throughout?
Artificially limiting game mechanics to one game mode or another is not the reason NS1 was the best and most popular HL1 mod 6 years after it was released.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No no, nothing is <i>wrong</i> with it except UWE <i>can't</i> balance for every possible server size out there. It's up to the server administrators if they want to change their balance mod based on them doing something the game wasn't inherently designed for. Most probably because the developer size simply doesn't allow them to balance for that kind of player count.
A similar example would be L4D, just for an example. It's completely designed around having four players, but <i>what if there were 8 players on the same team</i>? If you don't change the game variables with a mod, you get a game that's insanely easy on anything except expert, where it becomes insanely hard.
I mean, would it be Valves job to change the game balance around a majority of modded servers, or is it the server admins job to change the balance of their mod? And before you reply, keep in mind that changing the player count to 24 players is already modding the game by itself.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just make various aspects of the game vital to balance scale depending on the number of players? Start with the game as-is at the 6v6/8v8 level and then add a bit of scaling depending on the player count. Not difficult at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doing this where they can is of course a good thing, but you can't effectively scale some things without a specific mod. For instance, the higher value for Marines upgrades depending on how many players there are. That's a huge amount of added damage all of it's own with 11 players who have W3 versus 8 players with W3. It's not a perfect example, but it might help to illustrate why it's tough for UWE to do the server admins job.
<!--quoteo(post=2049930:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:37 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good points, and I tend to agree with you. However, what moving target of server size do you want it balanced for?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why should we pigeon hole ourselves? Why not have a sliding scale that will scale with server size? Make certain variables dependant on server size. We already do this when teams are uneven. The auto-balance kicks in and keeps players on one team dead when there is an imbalance. It's a simple way to address an issue where players numbers change and threaten to alter the balance of the game.
The developers are smart guys. If they want to do this they can find a way. My point is that we should be investigating this instead of telling gamers that they have to play how we tell them to play or we won't care about their gameplay experience.
<!--quoteo(post=2049938:date=Dec 22 2012, 03:51 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 22 2012, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why should we pigeon hole ourselves? Why not have a sliding scale that will scale with server size? Make certain variables dependant on server size. We already do this when teams are uneven. The auto-balance kicks in and keeps players on one team dead when there is an imbalance. It's a simple way to address an issue where players numbers change and threaten to alter the balance of the game.
The developers are smart guys. If they want to do this they can find a way. My point is that we should be investigating this instead of telling gamers that they have to play how we tell them to play or we won't care about their gameplay experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a very small part of my argument. It was probably the smallest part, in fact. A 'sliding scale' in a game as complex as NS2 is unrealistic. What variables would be on your 'sliding scale'? Egg spawn rate, certainly, but what else? That is obviously not the only thing that needs a balance change at higher player counts, and not all of those things are as easy to change as you make it out to be.
UWE isn't saying you must play they way they want you to. They're saying they only support up to 16 players, and anything beyond that is the job of the person that wants to exceed that balance limit. If they <i>forced</i> you to play on 16 person servers it would be one thing, but the fact they included server mods means they opened it up to people that wanted to try something different.
Perhaps the method of installing and creating mods is the problem, I wouldn't know as I'm not a server operator. I do know if I ran a server of 24 people you can bet your butt I'd be researching modding 'how to's' and changing a few things around.
<!--quoteo(post=2049944:date=Dec 22 2012, 02:02 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was a very small part of my argument. It was probably the smallest part, in fact. A 'sliding scale' in a game as complex as NS2 is unrealistic. What variables would be on your 'sliding scale'? Egg spawn rate, certainly, but what else? That is obviously not the only thing that needs a balance change at higher player counts, and not all of those things are as easy to change as you make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We haven't seen any 30+ player servers yet so we don't know for sure. But actually the game is pretty damn balanced in 12v12 besides egg count. Egg count is about it.
Player damage doesn't really need to scale since you're still killing the same enemy, just lots more of them and more of you. I would advise just making egg count and spawning rates for aliens dynamic and leave it at that until further problems arise.
<!--quoteo(post=2049947:date=Dec 22 2012, 04:10 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 22 2012, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We haven't seen any 30+ player servers yet so we don't know for sure. But actually the game is pretty damn balanced in 12v12 besides egg count. Egg count is about it.
Player damage doesn't really need to scale since you're still killing the same enemy, just lots more of them and more of you. I would advise just making egg count and spawning rates for aliens dynamic and leave it at that until further problems arise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We definitely agree on egg spawn rates. That change alone would probably fix most of my 12v12 woes as Alien Commander.
I have noticed that 12v12 isn't so bad otherwise with the influx of new players. 10 new players vs 10 new players makes it interesting for the two players per team that know what's up =P
<!--quoteo(post=2049905:date=Dec 22 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 22 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When people literally warp it's typically because their computers are terrible. That's one aspect of NS2's netcode which genuinely <i>does </i>need fixing. Instead of smoothly translating between locations (even though they'd be wobbly and rubberbandy) their location instantly snaps to a location a few feet away.
Personally I don't experience the delay you mention at all, so it's also possible that experiencing the delay only happens on poor computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am running i7@4ghz and 2x 2GB 6950 in Crossfire and I am being shot behind the wall all the time. I can tell you the vast majority of the delay I am experiencing is with the code and not the hardware. No amount of performance issues can explain why I was shot in sub by a rine that's still on the other side of system waypoint, or why a STATIONARY skulk took no damage from my AR until I've emptied half my clip into the bugger with his name right on my crosshair. That's not to say there's no performance issues (for some inexplicable reason my 3x Raid0 takes longer to precache than my buddy who is using a 5-year-old raptor, and the typical fps tank that occurs randomly lategame), but the issue with hitreg and delay is definitely present and cause of rage for many players.
Incidentally, most of the time when I see people warp, they do have triple digit pings, so I am not sure where your assertion came from. Maybe players with bad computers warp, who knows, but that doesn't mean players with high ping do not.
<!--quoteo(post=2049905:date=Dec 22 2012, 02:44 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 22 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't experience the delay you mention at all, so it's also possible that experiencing the delay only happens on poor computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My comp is far from a "poor computer" (as is my connection) and I experience these delays at least once a game if not more often (typically much more often).
I must say I love high player count servers: more marines around the map means less lonely skulks killing your RTs while you are pushing somewhere else. This said, 12v12 is sometimes a bit too much, but 10v10 looks pretty much perfect to me. I've almost never played 6v6 for a simple reason: if one player disconnects, you are all of a sudden 4v5, unless your commander gets out. And that is a really risky thing to do in public games, especially as a marine.
I honestly think this game should be balanced around 8v8: balancing it at 6v6 means balancing on the smallest possible player count, therefore leaving 12v12 on the other far end of the game. Also I would like to see some scaling with player count: egg spawn timers come to mind first, structure build times and HP might get a little scaling tweak too.
Last but not least, some maps just become imbalanced when player count increases, other ones stay fine-ish. This tells us a big story, something known in the FPS world for quite a long time: one size doesn't fit all, we need balanced maps for higher players count before going to discuss 12v12 gameplay balance. Some maps are good already, some are really terrible with a higher player count
<!--quoteo(post=2049988:date=Dec 22 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Heart1987)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heart1987 @ Dec 22 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I must say I love high player count servers: more marines around the map means less lonely skulks killing your RTs while you are pushing somewhere else. This said, 12v12 is sometimes a bit too much, but 10v10 looks pretty much perfect to me. I've almost never played 6v6 for a simple reason: if one player disconnects, you are all of a sudden 4v5, unless your commander gets out. And that is a really risky thing to do in public games, especially as a marine.
I honestly think this game should be balanced around 8v8: balancing it at 6v6 means balancing on the smallest possible player count, therefore leaving 12v12 on the other far end of the game. Also I would like to see some scaling with player count: egg spawn timers come to mind first, structure build times and HP might get a little scaling tweak too.
Last but not least, some maps just become imbalanced when player count increases, other ones stay fine-ish. This tells us a big story, something known in the FPS world for quite a long time: one size doesn't fit all, we need balanced maps for higher players count before going to discuss 12v12 gameplay balance. Some maps are good already, some are really terrible with a higher player count<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Structure health, hmm that's another thing they could definitely tweak with player counts. Possibly increase the maturity cap by 10% for each additional player on your team over 8. So hives would reach 140% maturity.
<!--quoteo(post=2049905:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 22 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When people literally warp it's typically because their computers are terrible. That's one aspect of NS2's netcode which genuinely <i>does </i>need fixing. Instead of smoothly translating between locations (even though they'd be wobbly and rubberbandy) their location instantly snaps to a location a few feet away.
Personally I don't experience the delay you mention at all, so it's also possible that experiencing the delay only happens on poor computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definitely agree that the first thing needs to be fixed, but I have an i3770k @ 4ghz, 16gb ram, ssd, and an ati hd6970. This isn't in any way related to having a poor system.
Just to bring up another point of frustration, as I've been playing aliens a lot more recently I've noticed that I'm constantly being killed by marines who aren't even facing in my direction. It's hard to dodge effectively when simple stuff like facing direction isn't even remotely accurate.
<!--quoteo(post=2049787:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:44 PM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Dec 22 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->#1 = main reason i dont play<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Same here, and I played NS1 religiously for 4 years.
I tend to avoid 12v12's simply because of the spawn timing not scaling with player size and the Grenade Launcher STILL doing more player damage than it should be.
250ms delay is why a lot of competitive players hate this game in the NA scene. Somehow the EU players put up with it haha.
It's pretty retarded. Fix server performance, fix interpolation, please. It's even worse for public players on the big servers, just most of them don't realize that it exists.
<!--quoteo(post=2050199:date=Dec 23 2012, 09:24 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Dec 23 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->250ms delay is why a lot of competitive players hate this game in the NA scene. Somehow the EU players put up with it haha.
It's pretty retarded. Fix server performance, fix interpolation, please. It's even worse for public players on the big servers, just most of them don't realize that it exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks to my free time during this winter break, I decided to dust off my copy of NS2 with the latest beta. I spent 25 minutes reminding myself what it was like to play Quake 2 on a 56k US robotics modem.
Recently, I realized why I enjoyed NS1 so much, and it is because it was built on to the HL engine; a derivative of the quake engine- It's tight and responsive, yet I'm eager to see where this Spark engine will go.. I am just not "in love" with the current product.
<!--quoteo(post=2050239:date=Dec 23 2012, 07:07 AM:name=MrRadicalEd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrRadicalEd @ Dec 23 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks to my free time during this winter break, I decided to dust off my copy of NS2 with the latest beta. I spent 25 minutes reminding myself what it was like to play Quake 2 on a 56k US robotics modem.
Recently, I realized why I enjoyed NS1 so much, and it is because it was built on to the HL engine; a derivative of the quake engine- It's tight and responsive, yet I'm eager to see where this Spark engine will go.. I am just not "in love" with the current product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I personally enjoy the game as is, but know it could be better.
<!--quoteo(post=2049780:date=Dec 22 2012, 11:15 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 22 2012, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think experienced players are joining 12v12 servers because "There's more people" you're extremely mistaken.
Having played many 6v6 and 8v8 rounds, i can say pretty easily that the reason people are on the 12v12 servers has nothing to do with the server population, they have more people for a reason and that reason is the 12v12 is an all round better experience than the 6v6, and it's an experience much truer to the old NS1 experience.
6v6 games concentrate on the skill of a single player. 12v12 concentrate on teamwork. Teamwork wins every time on the scales of fun. There's never any 6v6 or 8v8 servers full, even during peak hours when all the 24 slot servers are full. People just migrate to the 20 slots, and then the 18 slot servers. Old NS1 was 32 players (I'm pretty sure), Balancing the game around 6v6 when most players aren't interested in playing 6v6 is commonly perceived as one of the biggest flaws for game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly I'd like to say that 6v6 and 8v8 are still very much about teamwork, it's just on a smaller scale than the 12v12 servers. Secondly, what the hell are you talking about saying no 8v8's are full, just yesterday I saw 14 full 8v8 servers, and only 4 or 5 full/populated 24 slot servers, as well as 2 full 6v6 servers.
EDIT: I feel like I should say something to the OP, so I'll say this. In regards to your complaints with egg lock, and how aliens COST RES to spawn. That's true, they cost you 5 res per 2 lives. BUT try to put this next to marines dropping medpacks/ammo, when you're egg locking, those get spammed pretty hard, and you easily see more than 20 res spent on meds/ammo in just the first minute, if your team is pressuring them hard enough, by contrast you can get a group of 4 aliens back for 10 res, and if they coordinate they can rush in and take those marines out, or even half of them out (they're not coming back quickly) quite easily.
<!--quoteo(post=2049836:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:03 PM:name=TSADrone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TSADrone @ Dec 22 2012, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bull######. This happens on servers where everyone has 50 ping or less just as much. At 200+, people are literally warping. It's disgusting how far around a corner you can be and still be killed, and it happens all the time. Peeking around corners can often just mean instant death. The other day I jumped up to get a look over something, landed back on the ground, and then was gunned down by the guy on the other side a full second later. I was 100% without a doubt entirely behind the object.
To a lesser extent, I've made kills where I missed a shot as someone quickly rounds a corner on my screen and killed them regardless. I've also been killed a few times in this way, with my opponents even calling it out as bull###### in chat telling me I had made it around the corner on their screen as well.
#1 is huge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this
this game is far worse about this than any other game in recent memory (IMO of course)
jetpacking against a fade or dodging a skulk will really showcase this as you can clearly see your enemy is either 50 ft away from you or completely facing away, but scores a hit each time. i cant think of another game with that kind of performance other than bf3 (that game has SERIOUS issues)
this game is far worse about this than any other game in recent memory (IMO of course)
jetpacking against a fade or dodging a skulk will really showcase this as you can clearly see your enemy is either 50 ft away from you or completely facing away, but scores a hit each time. i cant think of another game with that kind of performance other than bf3 (that game has SERIOUS issues)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Battlefield 3 is 50x worse than NS2 about this. That game's hit reg is seriously ######ed.
I agree with all his points. I also agree with the priority, especially #1. I sort servers by ping and join the ones with the lowest ping. I have easily less that 100 ping and for the most part less than 50. I have been well around corners and still take damage then die. Its extremely annoying when I'm lerking, start taking damange and do nothing but evacuate around a corner only to die.
To the OP you should post these ideas in the NS2 google moderator site!
There's one undeniable thing about dying behind walls in this game though; you DO know when it happens, and it's usually product of sticking around half a second longer then you should've. At least it's consistent. Still frustrating though...
I'll just get my 2 cents in on the player number issue. I pretty much started playing this game on 8v8 servers and avoided high player number servers like the plague. Now? I religiously avoid 8v8 servers and only play on high pop servers. Why? It's because the experience on 8v8 is exactly the same on high pop servers. That experience being that it completely sucks. All the issues present in high pop servers are present in 8v8 servers. I die around corners, my shots magically disappear, my shotgun loves to pull the no damage act, those 25/50 or completely missed bites on stationary targets, and my game performing like utter crap into the late game.
How the hell am I supposed to play seriously when I'm rocking a solid 15-20fps IN COMBAT!? Oh sure I can get a good 40fps running around aimlessly, but in combat? Yeah I'm sure that frame by frame action is going to help me get the kills I need to help out the team. I can always go around just chewing on RTs, but humping buildings isn't my idea of having fun.
So what makes high pop servers appealing? Well I certainly don't have to play seriously like I do in 8v8. Though that's not really why I find it all that appealing. The appeal is that I don't get as frustrated dealing with all the bs the game dishes out in a consistent basis. If you don't suffer from the game's discrepancies then more power to you and I'm somewhat jealous of your computer. If you do, then just go chillax at a high pop server and play the game at your own pace.
@PimpToad, that's interesting, my first experience on a 24 slot server everyone lagged and rubber-banded a lot. Once I realised it was the server, not my ping (which was 30), as everyone else was having the same issue, I started going to 18 or less slot servers and haven't had any issues there. On those servers, (18 or less), I haven't experienced any dieing around corners at all, in fact the only thing I experience that you do is shotgun shells missing, and I can't tell, in the quick combat, if I legitimately missed the shot (I'm not the best shot with a shotgun) or I hit and it did nothing. Everything else seems to work just fine, the only thing I really have trouble hitting are lerks, and well...their body shapes are so small I'm not surprised.
<!--quoteo(post=2050897:date=Dec 24 2012, 04:18 PM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 24 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@PimpToad, that's interesting, my first experience on a 24 slot server everyone lagged and rubber-banded a lot. Once I realised it was the server, not my ping (which was 30), as everyone else was having the same issue, I started going to 18 or less slot servers and haven't had any issues there. On those servers, (18 or less), I haven't experienced any dieing around corners at all, in fact the only thing I experience that you do is shotgun shells missing, and I can't tell, in the quick combat, if I legitimately missed the shot (I'm not the best shot with a shotgun) or I hit and it did nothing. Everything else seems to work just fine, the only thing I really have trouble hitting are lerks, and well...their body shapes are so small I'm not surprised.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the server, not the player count. A server with lag on a 24 player round will have lag on an 18 player round. The KHG servers or whatever the overclocked ones are will NEVER have lag, and all three are usually full.
<!--quoteo(post=2049780:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:15 AM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 22 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think experienced players are joining 12v12 servers because "There's more people" you're extremely mistaken.
Having played many 6v6 and 8v8 rounds, i can say pretty easily that the reason people are on the 12v12 servers has nothing to do with the server population, they have more people for a reason and that reason is the 12v12 is an all round better experience than the 6v6, and it's an experience much truer to the old NS1 experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I miss the days of 16v16 on the huge maps of ns1, sure it was rigged for rines but we all sucked so it didnt matter!
I dunno about arcs, even with 20 they go down pretty easy to bile bomb (if you see them coming and manage to distract the rines 2 gorges can kill them before they get 1 volley off).
<!--quoteo(post=2050905:date=Dec 25 2012, 01:05 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 25 2012, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the server, not the player count. A server with lag on a 24 player round will have lag on an 18 player round. The KHG servers or whatever the overclocked ones are will NEVER have lag, and all three are usually full.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see, regardless, I prefer lag free 8v8 play to lag free 12v12 play, too chaotic.
KanehJoin Date: 2012-12-11Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2050905:date=Dec 24 2012, 09:05 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 24 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the server, not the player count. A server with lag on a 24 player round will have lag on an 18 player round. The KHG servers or whatever the overclocked ones are will NEVER have lag, and all three are usually full.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there are more than a couple of servers that are running really poorly, despite what the server operators say. KKG servers are actually pretty bad in this regard. They spike down to under 10 ticrate commonly, really screwing with reg and whatnot.
I just get annoyed because they seem to like tricking people into believing the blame lies solely with the game and not their servers, when a good chunk of the issues are actually with the server.
but that brings up another point - there aren't actually that many 'good' servers that can constantly keep max ticrate.
Comments
Tell that to the 6 or so full 24/24 slot servers on right now at peak hours.
<!--quoteo(post=2049895:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:29 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess the question UWE should ask themselves is if they're willing to adjust the 'official' game code for the actions of a few rogue server admins. I'm guessing the answer is no, since there has been nothing but dead silence on this issue since the Shift had a cool down and cost increase slapped onto it. (Which was the only in-game solution to low egg spawns on one hive in large servers. Admittedly, this was broken in other situations, but it was a 'fix' as Alien commander for what Server admins put in place.)
Remember that server that had like a 60 or a 100 player max? It's a more extreme example, but there is <i>no way</i> UWE should be on the hook for supporting that type of lunacy. 12v12 is a full four extra people <i>per team</i> than the game was 'balanced' for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's wrong with a 50v50 server? Why can't the game have variables that change slowly with the amount of players on a server so that it remains balanced throughout?
Artificially limiting game mechanics to one game mode or another is not the reason NS1 was the best and most popular HL1 mod 6 years after it was released.
<!--quoteo(post=2049905:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 22 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When people literally warp it's typically because their computers are terrible. That's one aspect of NS2's netcode which genuinely <i>does </i>need fixing. Instead of smoothly translating between locations (even though they'd be wobbly and rubberbandy) their location instantly snaps to a location a few feet away.
Personally I don't experience the delay you mention at all, so it's also possible that experiencing the delay only happens on poor computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't worry about calling my computer poor, i assure you it's far more powerful than average players of this game.
<!--quoteo(post=2049927:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:27 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 22 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A minority of players play on 16 player (or less) servers. Hit up the server browser and see for yourself. Sort by player count and you'll see just how many larger servers there are - most all of them FULL all the time.
The players have spoken.
It's about time we start listening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah i didn't even turn off my filters to look i just realized, there's tons and tons of 12v12 servers full to the brim. Words of wisdom guys, listen to this guy.
Why not just make various aspects of the game vital to balance scale depending on the number of players? Start with the game as-is at the 6v6/8v8 level and then add a bit of scaling depending on the player count. Not difficult at all.
What's wrong with a 50v50 server? Why can't the game have variables that change slowly with the amount of players on a server so that it remains balanced throughout?
Artificially limiting game mechanics to one game mode or another is not the reason NS1 was the best and most popular HL1 mod 6 years after it was released.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No no, nothing is <i>wrong</i> with it except UWE <i>can't</i> balance for every possible server size out there. It's up to the server administrators if they want to change their balance mod based on them doing something the game wasn't inherently designed for. Most probably because the developer size simply doesn't allow them to balance for that kind of player count.
A similar example would be L4D, just for an example. It's completely designed around having four players, but <i>what if there were 8 players on the same team</i>? If you don't change the game variables with a mod, you get a game that's insanely easy on anything except expert, where it becomes insanely hard.
I mean, would it be Valves job to change the game balance around a majority of modded servers, or is it the server admins job to change the balance of their mod? And before you reply, keep in mind that changing the player count to 24 players is already modding the game by itself.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just make various aspects of the game vital to balance scale depending on the number of players? Start with the game as-is at the 6v6/8v8 level and then add a bit of scaling depending on the player count. Not difficult at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doing this where they can is of course a good thing, but you can't effectively scale some things without a specific mod. For instance, the higher value for Marines upgrades depending on how many players there are. That's a huge amount of added damage all of it's own with 11 players who have W3 versus 8 players with W3. It's not a perfect example, but it might help to illustrate why it's tough for UWE to do the server admins job.
The developers are smart guys. If they want to do this they can find a way. My point is that we should be investigating this instead of telling gamers that they have to play how we tell them to play or we won't care about their gameplay experience.
The developers are smart guys. If they want to do this they can find a way. My point is that we should be investigating this instead of telling gamers that they have to play how we tell them to play or we won't care about their gameplay experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a very small part of my argument. It was probably the smallest part, in fact. A 'sliding scale' in a game as complex as NS2 is unrealistic. What variables would be on your 'sliding scale'? Egg spawn rate, certainly, but what else? That is obviously not the only thing that needs a balance change at higher player counts, and not all of those things are as easy to change as you make it out to be.
UWE isn't saying you must play they way they want you to. They're saying they only support up to 16 players, and anything beyond that is the job of the person that wants to exceed that balance limit. If they <i>forced</i> you to play on 16 person servers it would be one thing, but the fact they included server mods means they opened it up to people that wanted to try something different.
Perhaps the method of installing and creating mods is the problem, I wouldn't know as I'm not a server operator. I do know if I ran a server of 24 people you can bet your butt I'd be researching modding 'how to's' and changing a few things around.
We haven't seen any 30+ player servers yet so we don't know for sure. But actually the game is pretty damn balanced in 12v12 besides egg count. Egg count is about it.
Player damage doesn't really need to scale since you're still killing the same enemy, just lots more of them and more of you. I would advise just making egg count and spawning rates for aliens dynamic and leave it at that until further problems arise.
Player damage doesn't really need to scale since you're still killing the same enemy, just lots more of them and more of you. I would advise just making egg count and spawning rates for aliens dynamic and leave it at that until further problems arise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We definitely agree on egg spawn rates. That change alone would probably fix most of my 12v12 woes as Alien Commander.
I have noticed that 12v12 isn't so bad otherwise with the influx of new players. 10 new players vs 10 new players makes it interesting for the two players per team that know what's up =P
Personally I don't experience the delay you mention at all, so it's also possible that experiencing the delay only happens on poor computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am running i7@4ghz and 2x 2GB 6950 in Crossfire and I am being shot behind the wall all the time. I can tell you the vast majority of the delay I am experiencing is with the code and not the hardware. No amount of performance issues can explain why I was shot in sub by a rine that's still on the other side of system waypoint, or why a STATIONARY skulk took no damage from my AR until I've emptied half my clip into the bugger with his name right on my crosshair. That's not to say there's no performance issues (for some inexplicable reason my 3x Raid0 takes longer to precache than my buddy who is using a 5-year-old raptor, and the typical fps tank that occurs randomly lategame), but the issue with hitreg and delay is definitely present and cause of rage for many players.
Incidentally, most of the time when I see people warp, they do have triple digit pings, so I am not sure where your assertion came from. Maybe players with bad computers warp, who knows, but that doesn't mean players with high ping do not.
Oh yea with 12v12 there is actually more strategy! For example you can actually flank enemies because you actually have enough people to do it!
My comp is far from a "poor computer" (as is my connection) and I experience these delays at least once a game if not more often (typically much more often).
This said, 12v12 is sometimes a bit too much, but 10v10 looks pretty much perfect to me. I've almost never played 6v6 for a simple reason: if one player disconnects, you are all of a sudden 4v5, unless your commander gets out. And that is a really risky thing to do in public games, especially as a marine.
I honestly think this game should be balanced around 8v8: balancing it at 6v6 means balancing on the smallest possible player count, therefore leaving 12v12 on the other far end of the game. Also I would like to see some scaling with player count: egg spawn timers come to mind first, structure build times and HP might get a little scaling tweak too.
Last but not least, some maps just become imbalanced when player count increases, other ones stay fine-ish. This tells us a big story, something known in the FPS world for quite a long time: one size doesn't fit all, we need balanced maps for higher players count before going to discuss 12v12 gameplay balance. Some maps are good already, some are really terrible with a higher player count
This said, 12v12 is sometimes a bit too much, but 10v10 looks pretty much perfect to me. I've almost never played 6v6 for a simple reason: if one player disconnects, you are all of a sudden 4v5, unless your commander gets out. And that is a really risky thing to do in public games, especially as a marine.
I honestly think this game should be balanced around 8v8: balancing it at 6v6 means balancing on the smallest possible player count, therefore leaving 12v12 on the other far end of the game. Also I would like to see some scaling with player count: egg spawn timers come to mind first, structure build times and HP might get a little scaling tweak too.
Last but not least, some maps just become imbalanced when player count increases, other ones stay fine-ish. This tells us a big story, something known in the FPS world for quite a long time: one size doesn't fit all, we need balanced maps for higher players count before going to discuss 12v12 gameplay balance. Some maps are good already, some are really terrible with a higher player count<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Structure health, hmm that's another thing they could definitely tweak with player counts. Possibly increase the maturity cap by 10% for each additional player on your team over 8. So hives would reach 140% maturity.
Personally I don't experience the delay you mention at all, so it's also possible that experiencing the delay only happens on poor computers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definitely agree that the first thing needs to be fixed, but I have an i3770k @ 4ghz, 16gb ram, ssd, and an ati hd6970. This isn't in any way related to having a poor system.
Just to bring up another point of frustration, as I've been playing aliens a lot more recently I've noticed that I'm constantly being killed by marines who aren't even facing in my direction. It's hard to dodge effectively when simple stuff like facing direction isn't even remotely accurate.
One giant cluster######.
It's pretty retarded. Fix server performance, fix interpolation, please.
It's even worse for public players on the big servers, just most of them don't realize that it exists.
It's pretty retarded. Fix server performance, fix interpolation, please.
It's even worse for public players on the big servers, just most of them don't realize that it exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks to my free time during this winter break, I decided to dust off my copy of NS2 with the latest beta. I spent 25 minutes reminding myself what it was like to play Quake 2 on a 56k US robotics modem.
Recently, I realized why I enjoyed NS1 so much, and it is because it was built on to the HL engine; a derivative of the quake engine- It's tight and responsive, yet I'm eager to see where this Spark engine will go.. I am just not "in love" with the current product.
Recently, I realized why I enjoyed NS1 so much, and it is because it was built on to the HL engine; a derivative of the quake engine- It's tight and responsive, yet I'm eager to see where this Spark engine will go.. I am just not "in love" with the current product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally enjoy the game as is, but know it could be better.
Having played many 6v6 and 8v8 rounds, i can say pretty easily that the reason people are on the 12v12 servers has nothing to do with the server population, they have more people for a reason and that reason is the 12v12 is an all round better experience than the 6v6, and it's an experience much truer to the old NS1 experience.
6v6 games concentrate on the skill of a single player. 12v12 concentrate on teamwork. Teamwork wins every time on the scales of fun. There's never any 6v6 or 8v8 servers full, even during peak hours when all the 24 slot servers are full. People just migrate to the 20 slots, and then the 18 slot servers. Old NS1 was 32 players (I'm pretty sure), Balancing the game around 6v6 when most players aren't interested in playing 6v6 is commonly perceived as one of the biggest flaws for game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly I'd like to say that 6v6 and 8v8 are still very much about teamwork, it's just on a smaller scale than the 12v12 servers. Secondly, what the hell are you talking about saying no 8v8's are full, just yesterday I saw 14 full 8v8 servers, and only 4 or 5 full/populated 24 slot servers, as well as 2 full 6v6 servers.
EDIT: I feel like I should say something to the OP, so I'll say this. In regards to your complaints with egg lock, and how aliens COST RES to spawn. That's true, they cost you 5 res per 2 lives. BUT try to put this next to marines dropping medpacks/ammo, when you're egg locking, those get spammed pretty hard, and you easily see more than 20 res spent on meds/ammo in just the first minute, if your team is pressuring them hard enough, by contrast you can get a group of 4 aliens back for 10 res, and if they coordinate they can rush in and take those marines out, or even half of them out (they're not coming back quickly) quite easily.
It's disgusting how far around a corner you can be and still be killed, and it happens all the time. Peeking around corners can often just mean instant death. The other day I jumped up to get a look over something, landed back on the ground, and then was gunned down by the guy on the other side a full second later. I was 100% without a doubt entirely behind the object.
To a lesser extent, I've made kills where I missed a shot as someone quickly rounds a corner on my screen and killed them regardless. I've also been killed a few times in this way, with my opponents even calling it out as bull###### in chat telling me I had made it around the corner on their screen as well.
#1 is huge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this
this game is far worse about this than any other game in recent memory (IMO of course)
jetpacking against a fade or dodging a skulk will really showcase this as you can clearly see your enemy is either 50 ft away from you or completely facing away, but scores a hit each time. i cant think of another game with that kind of performance other than bf3 (that game has SERIOUS issues)
this game is far worse about this than any other game in recent memory (IMO of course)
jetpacking against a fade or dodging a skulk will really showcase this as you can clearly see your enemy is either 50 ft away from you or completely facing away, but scores a hit each time. i cant think of another game with that kind of performance other than bf3 (that game has SERIOUS issues)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Battlefield 3 is 50x worse than NS2 about this. That game's hit reg is seriously ######ed.
I also agree with the priority, especially #1.
I sort servers by ping and join the ones with the lowest ping. I have easily less that 100 ping and for the most part less than 50. I have been well around corners and still take damage then die. Its extremely annoying when I'm lerking, start taking damange and do nothing but evacuate around a corner only to die.
To the OP you should post these ideas in the NS2 google moderator site!
How the hell am I supposed to play seriously when I'm rocking a solid 15-20fps IN COMBAT!? Oh sure I can get a good 40fps running around aimlessly, but in combat? Yeah I'm sure that frame by frame action is going to help me get the kills I need to help out the team. I can always go around just chewing on RTs, but humping buildings isn't my idea of having fun.
So what makes high pop servers appealing? Well I certainly don't have to play seriously like I do in 8v8. Though that's not really why I find it all that appealing. The appeal is that I don't get as frustrated dealing with all the bs the game dishes out in a consistent basis. If you don't suffer from the game's discrepancies then more power to you and I'm somewhat jealous of your computer. If you do, then just go chillax at a high pop server and play the game at your own pace.
That's the server, not the player count. A server with lag on a 24 player round will have lag on an 18 player round. The KHG servers or whatever the overclocked ones are will NEVER have lag, and all three are usually full.
Having played many 6v6 and 8v8 rounds, i can say pretty easily that the reason people are on the 12v12 servers has nothing to do with the server population, they have more people for a reason and that reason is the 12v12 is an all round better experience than the 6v6, and it's an experience much truer to the old NS1 experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I miss the days of 16v16 on the huge maps of ns1, sure it was rigged for rines but we all sucked so it didnt matter!
I dunno about arcs, even with 20 they go down pretty easy to bile bomb (if you see them coming and manage to distract the rines 2 gorges can kill them before they get 1 volley off).
I see, regardless, I prefer lag free 8v8 play to lag free 12v12 play, too chaotic.
there are more than a couple of servers that are running really poorly, despite what the server operators say. KKG servers are actually pretty bad in this regard. They spike down to under 10 ticrate commonly, really screwing with reg and whatnot.
I just get annoyed because they seem to like tricking people into believing the blame lies solely with the game and not their servers, when a good chunk of the issues are actually with the server.
but that brings up another point - there aren't actually that many 'good' servers that can constantly keep max ticrate.