<!--quoteo(post=2051883:date=Dec 27 2012, 11:42 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 27 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I'm not sure where the risk of perpetual holdouts with EXOs would come in NS2. Heck, if anything, in NS2 the commander can drop a GL or flamethrower every 150 seconds with just his one lonely CC and advanced armory. Or he can drop armory walls or robototics factories at entrances. That's where I see the game drag out. Individual marines never have resources to buy much of anything once boxed in to their base. They just never get enough res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It kinda stems from the "Why can't I buy the EXO I was saving all round for but now can't because we lost our second tech point" argument. Three or Four marines, backed into a corner, now able to buy EXOs and hold out for an extended time in a base with a long hall way or limited access that would allow a few EXOs and a couple of welder-bots (MACs or Marines) to lock down the tech point would only make the last stand more drawn out and painful that it needs to be. By contrast, and as already stated, a one hive Onos is pretty useless. But an EXO that survives the loss of a techpoint losses nothing. Trying to push out of the final techpoint (presuming the alien team has a fairly strong hold on the rest of the map, which is probably the case if we are where we are talking about) with those surviving EXOs would get them crushed quickly. We all know that no one with half a brain is going to push out vs multiple Onos, a Bile Bombing Gorge, and some savage, bitey Skulks. Not to mention the likely hood of Crags and Shifts nearby...
Better to let the game end and start fresh, allowing the EXOs to be purchased in such a scenario would only prolong the inevitable.
<!--quoteo(post=2051891:date=Dec 27 2012, 01:56 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 27 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It kinda stems from the "Why can't I buy the EXO I was saving all round for but now can't because we lost our second tech point" argument. Three or Four marines, backed into a corner, now able to buy EXOs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Heh, if there are 3 or 4 marines who can afford to go EXO, why would they wait until after they lose their second CC? :) Heck, it seems now as soon as anyone can afford an EXO they buy it and run out to get slaughtered. If marines have 4 people sitting at 75+ res, then the comm will tell them to grab an EXO and make a push. Is it *possible* that what you say could happen? Yes, absolutely. People might want to wait for the 'perfect moment' and then end up waiting too long. Is it *probable* that marines would sit on their EXO res while they are being slaughtered and losing bases? IMHO, no.
Hey Torak, I agree with you in principle about games dragging on when a team (usually marines) have no hope of winning. It's no fun to play a game you know you're going to lose anyway. I'm totally in agreement with you here, and this is an issue that needs to be addressed with some element that 'forces' the end of the game to progress in a timely manner. Turtles happen all the time without players having access to 1-CC EXOs.
My point was more related to the gameplay aspect. As I said above, UWE markets this game with the 'mechs' front and center, and people buy it thinking they're gonna be playing in these things. Then comes the real game and not only are the EXOs restricted to a certain set of circumstances, even if they can afford to buy it they are often unable to do so. If we want to sell this game, it doesn't make sense to unnecessarily restrict elements of the game that are fun to play. Stalemates can be dealt with in other ways.
I'd rather see people have fun with with the advanced weapons, just as they do with the Onos. If there are concerns about end-game stalemates, then balance it in another way. IOW, I'm looking at 'player fun' here first and foremost. The stalemate issue exists now, with or without 1-CC pres EXOs. So instead of limiting gameplay elements to players, why not address the stalemate issue on its own instead, and let the people have fun with their 'mechs'? Yuno what I mean?
Otherwise, why is every single NS2 image showing off the EXO when in most games the marines will never get to use them? Look at it from a <i>player </i>perspective, not a game perspective.
We are pretty much in agreement (which is usually the case ;)). However, "player fun" is a bit too broad.
Not to pick on this guy but:
<!--quoteo(post=2051830:date=Dec 27 2012, 09:26 AM:name=GreatGrizzly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreatGrizzly @ Dec 27 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I have is having to rely so much on a commander for something so simple, so frequently. There is also a cost associated with building armories AND I and my team become understrength while building that armory, even if temporarily.
The whole game revolves around you being mobile and taking territory. However it forces marines to stick close to armories which are not mobile. This punishes good squads by forcing them to slow down, and wait on their, most likely preoccupied, commander.
<u><b>I get a sense that I am in a box, that can only be opened by the commander. Having a player feel constrained and at the whim of another player(assuming the confined player didn't put himself in the situation) is never good game design.</b></u>
I like the idea of bigger mag counts as a researchable item though. It would need to be an early game unlock to be useful, as the early game is where the commander will be the most preoccupied with everything going on and wont be able to micro well enough to keep me well stocked with ammo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Bolded and underlined for emphasis)
He does not find it fun to rely on the commander. If the Commander never researches EXOs, and the players want to have fun playing them, what then? The RTS portion of this game isn't always fun; but it is part of the game and the game as a whole IS fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2051910:date=Dec 27 2012, 02:37 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 27 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He does not find it fun to rely on the commander. If the Commander never researches EXOs, and the players want to have fun playing them, what then? The RTS portion of this game isn't always fun; but it is part of the game and the game as a whole IS fun. The line has to be drawn somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes we are in agreement. :)
I tend to look at the EXOs from a standpoint <i>independent </i>of balance. Hey, if the developers wanted to they could alter the marine side so that EXOs were as cheap as shotties and able to be purchased from any armory. Now of course the EXO - and the game - would have to be re-balanced for that, but that's just a formality.
Yeah I agree the game has an RTS portion, and that does have to be taken into account, but as it stands the marines are able to make their own purchase decisions on armory weapons once they are researched (and they all end up getting researched). Couldn't they do the same with EXOs? I think they could.
When the question was asked to me about the EXO, it wasn't asked from a balance perspective. It was asked from a "why can't I buy this to have fun" aspect. I explained about the necessary buildings, upgrades and such, and then they asked why is it that they could buy an Onos but not an EXO "with their own money". I then explained about the CCs and they (aptly) asked why it was like that.
Frankly, I've pondered what the game would be like if the EXOs were as common as shotties. (bearing in mind not with the same combat stats of course) Yuno maybe a 200ish armor EXO with one LMG. So instead of a shottie where you pay for increased firepower, the EXO would be a strict armor upgrade with no improvement in damage. One choice gives you more damage, the other makes you harder to kill. Then you can have the commander research more upgrades for it as the game progresses, leading to the dual-mini endgame EXO at the highest tier. Heck, they could even build in speed upgrades to this 'cheap' EXO, which would preclude the ability to make it more deadly. An EXO that could run as fast as a marine but only had 200 armor and an LMG? Would be interesting to test!
From a strict gameplay standpoint, people love playing in the EXOs, and who can blame them. No matter how we slice it, they are fun to play and a different experience from the stock marine. Just as is the jetpack. The aliens have all these various and different lifeforms that provide different gameplay experiences, which is great. They are all accessible for the most part too, which is also great. I'd love to see the EXOs see more playtime in a balanced capacity, since I think it could draw in more players. Heck, even jetpacks could be made cheaper and easier to acquire but made 'weaker' so they could see more use.
Variety is never a bad thing. We can always balance it out in the end.
I agree with the spirit of OPs argument of how it is more fun to have classes available to everyone by p-res, but balance issues regarding endgame marine turtling are definitely there. However, balance is just that, and it can be adjusted relatively easily.
For example, the flip side would be to make it so you can't go onos without 2 or 3 hives. No one suggested that, and I don't think that it would be very fun. I enjoy the ability to be able to have access to all the classes in the game, regardless of game state (even then, you would still have had to get to the proto lab in the first place).
In terms of balance, there are many things you can do. Res cost, armor amount, damage, ect. I heard someone mention they would love an exosuit that had a flamer. If the base exo only had a flamer (and less armor), that would alleviate the camping aspect. The first exo push would still be quite useful (skulk and cyst rape), but for real onos/hive destruction you would need the more expensive dual exo. Marines would have jetpacks too, but that also has the side effect of encouraging marines to move out of that last spawn, which is a good thing IMO.
I the better solution in this situation is to tie armor/weapon upgrades to command chairs. This would also give marines an incentive to expand past 2 besides just denying hive locations and backup chairs. It also alleviates end game marine spawn camping. Although it is such a simple solution I sort of doubt the devs have not considered it already these past years.
<!--quoteo(post=2051965:date=Dec 27 2012, 01:46 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 27 2012, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok then ill bite, why
would you rather spend 50 res and then die in 3 hits , last one around a corner during blink? or wait a little longer and steamroll marines with onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2012
Well, if the case is "EXO's aren't used" then we need to fix the EXO right? I mean currently Jetpacks are way more useful compared to EXO's, so what exactly can we do to make the EXO more part of everyday life, while not giving marines more turtle tools :)
I think if we're using the widely used Jetpack as a counterpart, we can at least get an idea of why it is a better choice...
<ul><li>Jetpacks: <ul><li>Superior movement, the more you have the more map control you have (usefull for final base push and map control)</li><li>Less dependent on team compared to base marine and EXO, due to suprior movement</li><li>Can use any weapon</li><li>Can use Phasegates</li><li>Can help construction and repair</li><li>Requires armories or ammo drops for weapons</li><li>Flashlight is the reason people disable atmospherics</li><li>Beacon to main base is still as effective as ever, even more so due to the now superior movement, compared to the basic marine</li></ul> </li><li>EXO <ul><li>Slow movement, there more there are the less map control you have (usefull for final base push)</li><li>Highly dependent on his team having welders</li><li>Can only use the Brofist or Dual minigun (which cause him to see "nothing")</li><li>Can't use Phasegates</li><li>Can't construct or repair</li><li>Unlimited ammo and superior firepower</li><li>Superior Flashlight</li><li>Beacon to main base can cause the EXO's to be destroyed</li></ul></li></ul>
They seem to balance out to some extent, but the jetpack is cheaper and will always be the best choice in a game where movement and map control are key... The limitations on the EXO are there to keep it balanced, but it is so dependent on the team it is also its Achilles heel...
<!--quoteo(post=2051930:date=Dec 27 2012, 04:04 PM:name=gsx00)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsx00 @ Dec 27 2012, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with the spirit of OPs argument of how it is more fun to have classes available to everyone by p-res, but balance issues regarding endgame marine turtling are definitely there. However, balance is just that, and it can be adjusted relatively easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Precisely! It's what I was saying above, or to put it simply..
Gameplay>Balance
You can always adjust balance variables to suit any kind of gameplay alteration. While there are many die-hards who only see the game through a 'balance' lens, part of my job (in real life) is looking at a title from the eyes of the average person *playing* it. My first thought isn't "is it balanced?", my first thought is "is it fun?". The reason being is that you can always tweak the balance later. I know that this POV may irk people at times, but the reality is that people play games to have fun, they don't play them to enjoy the finer points of game balance. That's why I always put 'fun' above 'balance'.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, the flip side would be to make it so you can't go onos without 2 or 3 hives. No one suggested that, and I don't think that it would be very fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Exactly. I've never suggested any such thing, and you are right, it's counter-intuitive to fun gameplay. People have a blast when they go Onos, there is no reason to make it harder for a person to buy themselves an Onos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I the better solution in this situation is to tie armor/weapon upgrades to command chairs. This would also give marines an incentive to expand past 2 besides just denying hive locations and backup chairs. It also alleviates end game marine spawn camping. Although it is such a simple solution I sort of doubt the devs have not considered it already these past years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well to be fair the original game never needed more than one CC, so this is still a fairly new concept. (as is an immobile CC)
However, tying armor/weapon upgrades to the second CC could work, although they might need to change it from the current three stage upgrade to either 2 or 4 stage. I'm thinking 4 stage, since it's a more gradual strength progression. They could make the upgrades cheaper (relatively speaking, spread the cost of 3 upgrades over 4 stages) and then split the upgrades over two CCs. Upgrades 1 & 2 are available with the base CC, and upgrades 3 & 4 are tied to the second CC. Taking out the second CC effectively weakens the marines by 50%.
There would be only one possible concern I would have, and that would be the 'gg scenario'. IOW, as soon as marines lose the second CC everyone is saying "it's all over" and "gg" etc as they press F4 to go to the ready room. To be fair, this could significantly limit marine 'comebacks' in the later game, and could make surrenders more common.
Anyway, I didn't want to get into balance since that's something that can be covered a dozen different ways. I just wanted to look at the issue of getting the advanced marine tech into the hands of the marines more often.
<!--quoteo(post=2051486:date=Dec 26 2012, 03:36 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 26 2012, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wouldnt be an issue if fade/lerk were more viable, and ive been saying that for a year+ why would ANYONE seriously choose the sickly fade over onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so long ago, I was khammandee snd i saw 1 fade solo 2 exo and 1 welder. Was beautiful. I dare you to do that with your onos. You just dont know how to play fade.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2052020:date=Dec 27 2012, 09:20 PM:name=Strahd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strahd @ Dec 27 2012, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not so long ago, I was khammandee snd i saw 1 fade solo 2 exo and 1 welder. Was beautiful. I dare you to do that with your onos. You just dont know how to play fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Probably a superior skilled Fade vs an average skilled EXOs or EXOs that were already heavily damaged, not really a good example...
<!--quoteo(post=2051996:date=Dec 27 2012, 03:38 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Dec 27 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, if the case is "EXO's aren't used" then we need to fix the EXO right? I mean currently Jetpacks are way more useful compared to EXO's,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ALL day, EVERYDAY lol
when i com i dont even research exo until i get jp and w2a2 because i find JP is FAR more useful.
<!--quoteo(post=2052002:date=Dec 27 2012, 03:47 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 27 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, tying armor/weapon upgrades to the second CC could work,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i still dont agree with this for multiple reasons.
<!--quoteo(post=2051477:date=Dec 26 2012, 01:08 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 26 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, petty insults and puerile remarks, why am I not surprised? (where it the rolling eyes smiley when you need it?)
Hey yeah... That explains everything right? Anytime anyone questions anything about the game, let's just say "asymmetric game" and tell them to gtfo right? I mean, we can send the developers home now. Any issues that come up can easily be solved by saying "asymmetric game", amirite?
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You forgot the "dur dur get a better commander", "dur dur shoot better", and my personal favorite "join a better server".
I see you too can appreciate arguments as robust and thought out as those too! ;)
I was just in a game a few hours ago where I was unable to use the res I had accumulated all game to get an exo, which would have helped turn the tide, because we lost our second CC.
Needless to say, we lost that command chair because after we attacked and killed a hive, 2 onos annihilated our forces and made a beeline for our undefended base.
<!--quoteo(post=2051901:date=Dec 27 2012, 12:23 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 27 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh, if there are 3 or 4 marines who can afford to go EXO, why would they wait until after they lose their second CC? :) Heck, it seems now as soon as anyone can afford an EXO they buy it and run out to get slaughtered. If marines have 4 people sitting at 75+ res, then the comm will tell them to grab an EXO and make a push. Is it *possible* that what you say could happen? Yes, absolutely. People might want to wait for the 'perfect moment' and then end up waiting too long. Is it *probable* that marines would sit on their EXO res while they are being slaughtered and losing bases? IMHO, no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
14 hours later...
<!--quoteo(post=2052216:date=Dec 28 2012, 02:30 AM:name=GreatGrizzly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreatGrizzly @ Dec 28 2012, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was just in a game a few hours ago where I was unable to use the res I had accumulated all game to get an exo, which would have helped turn the tide, because we lost our second CC.
Needless to say, we lost that command chair because after we attacked and killed a hive, 2 onos annihilated our forces and made a beeline for our undefended base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2052283:date=Dec 28 2012, 06:46 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 28 2012, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, this is just too convenient...
14 hours later...
heh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I literally got the 50 resource point as the CC was being attacked. I was repairing an EXO (we where the only two people) guarding our flank. I had no idea that the other teams attack failed until it was too late. It kinda sucks that I got punished because their attack failed.
<!--quoteo(post=2051910:date=Dec 27 2012, 10:37 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 27 2012, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are pretty much in agreement (which is usually the case ;)). However, "player fun" is a bit too broad.
Not to pick on this guy but:
(Bolded and underlined for emphasis)
He does not find it fun to rely on the commander. If the Commander never researches EXOs, and the players want to have fun playing them, what then? The RTS portion of this game isn't always fun; but it is part of the game and the game as a whole IS fun.
The line has to be drawn somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean like the line were you cross over into being an ass by commenting on something I said in another thread that has nothing to do with this one? Quite a line indeed. Grow up dude.
<!--quoteo(post=2052299:date=Dec 28 2012, 09:35 AM:name=GreatGrizzly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreatGrizzly @ Dec 28 2012, 09:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean like the line were you cross over into being an ass by commenting on something I said in another thread that has nothing to do with this one? Quite a line indeed. Grow up dude.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2051826:date=Dec 27 2012, 03:11 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 27 2012, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True; however, One CC EXOs would allow for marine holdouts in perpetuity. At least you might get those EXOs down with some attrition; and you know they won't be getting more. NS1 was rife with these single CC, single room Marine last stands. I would even go out on a limb and say it was one of the worst parts of the game. Remember back then you could drop a CC anywhere it could fit on the map? You would often see an immediate "relocate to Nano" on Veil. This would often wind up as the only base they had. They would turtle forever in there, taking turns picking up the one GL they had and spamming out the door, Slowly watching the res tick up to get a second GL to spam, then a single HMG, <i>ad nauseum</i>. No one could get in once the vents were welded and you could almost walk on the constant stream of bullets that would come out of the marine base. You could spend a serious amount of time and alien lives just to "get the armory down".
I imagine that this is part of the reason why CCs have to be placed on tech points now and also why you need two tech points to get EXOs. Without the requirement, we are back to NS1 marine stalemates. They were only partly fun for marines and no fun for aliens; even with three hives, you oftentimes could not break that turtle. More of my friends stopped playing NS1 because too many games degenerated into this; the end game was no fun. Allowing EXOs on one CC would be a step backward to the old NS1 stalemates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry for pulling an rather old point back into this discussion but i think there is on angle missing from this scenario. It happened more than once that Marines, turtled in like this, managed to stage a comeback after carefully saving up enough HA/Weapons. That's one of the things that made NS1 stalemates actually exciting, because they could end up turning the game around for the Marines. It's these kinds of rounds that people remembered as being "epic".
This aspect is currently missing completely from NS2, i would argue due to powernodes it's right now exactly the opposite. Marines on 1 base have a very hard time getting back into the game once they are contained. They can't get JP's for mobility to get out of base, building Ninja PG's is a massive pita due to not being able to build on infestation and the requirement of having to build a powernode in addition to that PG.
On the Kharaa side of things it's way easier to cripple the Marine team even with 1 Hive. The only thing that's needed is 1 smart Onos or a Gorge who has still Bilebomb or 2-3 good Skulks to hit the Marine base in a good moment and down goes the whole Marine base, forcing attacking Marines to retreat or in the worst case (whole base is lost) to tech back all the way to Exo/JP (New AA, New Proto).
Having 1 CC Exo's at least would give Marines a fighting chance even when contained to one tech point, instead of making it an endless drag to wait for the Kharaa to finally end it. Which often means waiting till the Khamm has creeped up the whole map until he reached both sides of the Marine base. Turtles on their own are not that bad, what makes them bad is when they only serve to prolong an already lost round. So shouldn't the solution rather be to make a comeback more likely instead of punishing an already downed enemy even more by taking all his chances of a comeback? Because of these dynamics it's so friggin common to see rounds end in recycles or surrender votes and ending rounds like that is not only anti-climatic it's also all kinds of boring.
<!--quoteo(post=2052032:date=Dec 27 2012, 04:45 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Dec 27 2012, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Probably a superior skilled Fade vs an average skilled EXOs or EXOs that were already heavily damaged, not really a good example...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nop. It was on a pub and the guy had a very average k/d ratios. But he wad using his fade the way its meant to. Blink In, swipe one or twice then blink out. Fafe are NOT meat shields. Both blink AND the shift key are abilities that gets you yo move very qiick + the low hp.. Iimho its a huge HINT as to how its meant to he played.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Somewhere, some time when NS2 kept flip flopping back and forth between requiring techpoints for tech and not, aliens couldn't get higher life forms like Onos without X hives.. and it sucked. Though at the time there were no Exos to compare to.
Then it was switched around to allow higher lifeforms, but researchable Tier tech like stomp would still be tied to TP.. The current requirements feel like a leftover from these changes. Obviously Tying tech to techpoints is crucial because techpoints are forward bases and this game is about map control.. thus if you lose map control you should lose tech - for a multitude of reasons already stated in this thread.
That all being said, i'd like to see greater restrictions / dependency on map control/techpoints to gain tech and less dependency on commander decisions. I.e. You can purchase an Exo if you have X techpoints regardless of commander researched, yet armor research is dependent on techpoints as well and still must be researched like stomp. This would create more of that symmetry in tech between the two teams, given how the Onos currently works. Not saying this is "the solution" but i would like to see how it plays out and how much of an impact certain factors have like elodea pointed out..
<b>tldr</b>: flip flopping on high level designs to accommodate unlocked lifeforms to avoid a predictable tech path (quick 2nd hive everytime) has led to the current configuration - but exos never went through this and were simply implemented with more requirements. There are good and bad sides to this and it has been balanced around it thus far, but it doesn't mean it cant change or be tweaked.
<!--quoteo(post=2052439:date=Dec 28 2012, 05:12 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Dec 28 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry for pulling an rather old point back into this discussion but i think there is on angle missing from this scenario. It happened more than once that Marines, turtled in like this, managed to stage a comeback after carefully saving up enough HA/Weapons. That's one of the things that made NS1 stalemates actually exciting, because they could end up turning the game around for the Marines. It's these kinds of rounds that people remembered as being "epic".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh yes, I have fond memories of some of those epic games!
This is a point that has been raised before though. Although not directly related to the topic, it is peripherally related. One huge issue with NS2 is that it has very little forgiveness, yet makes it hard to finish a game.
IOW, quite often if marines lose their SECOND command chair, they have essentially lost the game. No this doesn't always happen, but more often than not it does. Either from a large attack, or from a skulk munching on a power node that doesn't get notified to the team, the second base is gone and the marines are effectively 'done'. Not only have they lost the tech point, they have lost the one thing that might have been able to help them stage a comeback.
While some may crow about 'working as intended', if that's the case then <b>let's end the game right then and there</b>. So if marines lose ANY command chair, it's game over. No more games dragging on for a half hour while aliens decide to get their act together. (or until marines leave the server) If losing that second CC means marines lose the game, then let's end it and get the next game started.
If this is not what is intended, then let's let people have their EXOs that they have saved all game for.
I'm in agreement with Torak when he talks about not prolonging games. I'm not looking for turtle material. However, if marines aren't supposed to be able to stage a comeback, then let's just end it already. I'm cool with that. If marines know that losing either of their command chairs will lose them the game, it will be an incentive to pay more attention to it. (if they have more than two, they can lose other chairs so long as they hold two)
The gameplay is where I see the problem. Why can't people have their 'toys'? Forget balance here, (since balance is easy to fix) so why can't people buy that EXO that they have saved all game for? That's the question that begs to be answered.
<!--quoteo(post=2052283:date=Dec 28 2012, 10:46 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 28 2012, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if there are 3 or 4 marines who can afford to go EXO, why would they wait until after they lose their second CC? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->14 hours later...<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=GreatGrizzly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreatGrizzly)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was just in a game a few hours ago where I was unable to use the res I had accumulated all game to get an exo, which would have helped turn the tide, because we lost our second CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->heh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hehehe, yeah I knew this would happen. XD
Hey, in any game that I'm in, I'm watching the map constantly. If we get attacked, then I will call it out and suggest a beacon. If we can't beacon the base being attacked I will suggest to beacon to our main base for people to grab their EXOs before we lose second CC. I've done this many times as I often hold back on getting an EXO, since they are pretty much wasted res anyway. However, in the case of a lost CC there's nothing left to lose by getting an EXO at that point. (usually I'm the guy running around with my welder out pressing M1 - oh the excitement!)
Well, I'd still like to see this worked into the game somehow. I'd also like to see ways to end the game when one team clearly has 'won'. Stalemates aren't fun, I certainly agree with you there.
<!--quoteo(post=2052580:date=Dec 28 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 28 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gameplay is where I see the problem. Why can't people have their 'toys'? Forget balance here, (since balance is easy to fix)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 0_0
The long and short version of it for me is that each side needs to have vulnerable buildings that reduce that race's offensive capabilities. I'm pretty sure that most Onos won't charge in if they don't have something like Carapace or Celerity, which the marines can take out. Similiarly, if you're a Skulk staring down an army of Exos, your only possible counter might be to just attack the second command chair to keep them from building them.
It's nice to have factors like that playing into the game of "Which structure/location is the most important to attack?"
<!--quoteo(post=2052586:date=Dec 28 2012, 09:41 PM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Dec 28 2012, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The long and short version of it for me is that each side needs to have vulnerable buildings that reduce that race's offensive capabilities. I'm pretty sure that most Onos won't charge in if they don't have something like Carapace or Celerity, which the marines can take out. Similiarly, if you're a Skulk staring down an army of Exos, your only possible counter might be to just attack the second command chair to keep them from building them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If marines can't secure a second tech point, then one of two things is happening... They are too many 'novice' marines (and/or teams are stacked), or the game is broken. Marines should always be able to secure a second tech point in a 'balanced' game, unless they are significantly outplayed.
The point I'm trying to make is that people should be able to play with the marine 'toys'. Forget balance (as it's easily adjusted), look at gameplay alone. Why should aliens be the only team to get to play with the 'ultimate' unit, why shouldn't marines have the same chance? While the commander's choice should play a role in deciding the marine's destiny to an extent, it still should not preclude marines being able to have fun.
I don't even see what the question is other than, "Why can comm drop exo?". And the answer is... Why the hell not? If it's why can the comm drop exos with just 2 chairs instead of 3? The answer is... cause you only need 2. If there is a question about how that is balanced... It is.
<!--quoteo(post=2052580:date=Dec 28 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 28 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IOW, quite often if marines lose their SECOND command chair, they have essentially lost the game. No this doesn't always happen, but more often than not it does. Either from a large attack, or from a skulk munching on a power node that doesn't get notified to the team, the second base is gone and the marines are effectively 'done'. Not only have they lost the tech point, they have lost the one thing that might have been able to help them stage a comeback.
While some may crow about 'working as intended', if that's the case then <b>let's end the game right then and there</b>. So if marines lose ANY command chair, it's game over. No more games dragging on for a half hour while aliens decide to get their act together. (or until marines leave the server) If losing that second CC means marines lose the game, then let's end it and get the next game started.
If this is not what is intended, then let's let people have their EXOs that they have saved all game for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, that's a false choice if I've ever seen one.
You're saying that marines will lose more often than not if they lose their second tech point (presumably, for free in your scenario). Okay, I agree so far... but then you present two options:
a) end the game when any cc dies b) agree with your idea that pres items should be purchasable at any point in the game
How about: c) this idea is dumb and you're presenting really bad arguments for why it should be allowed
If you really think that marines should be able to buy exosuits at any time then why can't I buy shotguns without them being researched? Why do I have to wait for jetpacks to be researched before I can buy jetpacks. I want to play with jetpacks. Let me buy jetpacks whenever I want. I earned the pres, where is my jetpack? The argument that because I want something, I should get be able to get it without the requirements being met is not good for the game. NS2 is balanced around being able to deny your opponent power through various actions like killing RTs or holding tech points.
Comments
It kinda stems from the "Why can't I buy the EXO I was saving all round for but now can't because we lost our second tech point" argument. Three or Four marines, backed into a corner, now able to buy EXOs and hold out for an extended time in a base with a long hall way or limited access that would allow a few EXOs and a couple of welder-bots (MACs or Marines) to lock down the tech point would only make the last stand more drawn out and painful that it needs to be. By contrast, and as already stated, a one hive Onos is pretty useless. But an EXO that survives the loss of a techpoint losses nothing. Trying to push out of the final techpoint (presuming the alien team has a fairly strong hold on the rest of the map, which is probably the case if we are where we are talking about) with those surviving EXOs would get them crushed quickly. We all know that no one with half a brain is going to push out vs multiple Onos, a Bile Bombing Gorge, and some savage, bitey Skulks. Not to mention the likely hood of Crags and Shifts nearby...
Better to let the game end and start fresh, allowing the EXOs to be purchased in such a scenario would only prolong the inevitable.
Hey Torak, I agree with you in principle about games dragging on when a team (usually marines) have no hope of winning. It's no fun to play a game you know you're going to lose anyway. I'm totally in agreement with you here, and this is an issue that needs to be addressed with some element that 'forces' the end of the game to progress in a timely manner. Turtles happen all the time without players having access to 1-CC EXOs.
<img src="http://i46.tinypic.com/2vwdbat.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
My point was more related to the gameplay aspect. As I said above, UWE markets this game with the 'mechs' front and center, and people buy it thinking they're gonna be playing in these things. Then comes the real game and not only are the EXOs restricted to a certain set of circumstances, even if they can afford to buy it they are often unable to do so. If we want to sell this game, it doesn't make sense to unnecessarily restrict elements of the game that are fun to play. Stalemates can be dealt with in other ways.
I'd rather see people have fun with with the advanced weapons, just as they do with the Onos. If there are concerns about end-game stalemates, then balance it in another way. IOW, I'm looking at 'player fun' here first and foremost. The stalemate issue exists now, with or without 1-CC pres EXOs. So instead of limiting gameplay elements to players, why not address the stalemate issue on its own instead, and let the people have fun with their 'mechs'? Yuno what I mean?
Otherwise, why is every single NS2 image showing off the EXO when in most games the marines will never get to use them? Look at it from a <i>player </i>perspective, not a game perspective.
Not to pick on this guy but:
<!--quoteo(post=2051830:date=Dec 27 2012, 09:26 AM:name=GreatGrizzly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreatGrizzly @ Dec 27 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I have is having to rely so much on a commander for something so simple, so frequently. There is also a cost associated with building armories AND I and my team become understrength while building that armory, even if temporarily.
The whole game revolves around you being mobile and taking territory. However it forces marines to stick close to armories which are not mobile. This punishes good squads by forcing them to slow down, and wait on their, most likely preoccupied, commander.
<u><b>I get a sense that I am in a box, that can only be opened by the commander. Having a player feel constrained and at the whim of another player(assuming the confined player didn't put himself in the situation) is never good game design.</b></u>
I like the idea of bigger mag counts as a researchable item though. It would need to be an early game unlock to be useful, as the early game is where the commander will be the most preoccupied with everything going on and wont be able to micro well enough to keep me well stocked with ammo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Bolded and underlined for emphasis)
He does not find it fun to rely on the commander. If the Commander never researches EXOs, and the players want to have fun playing them, what then? The RTS portion of this game isn't always fun; but it is part of the game and the game as a whole IS fun.
The line has to be drawn somewhere.
I tend to look at the EXOs from a standpoint <i>independent </i>of balance. Hey, if the developers wanted to they could alter the marine side so that EXOs were as cheap as shotties and able to be purchased from any armory. Now of course the EXO - and the game - would have to be re-balanced for that, but that's just a formality.
Yeah I agree the game has an RTS portion, and that does have to be taken into account, but as it stands the marines are able to make their own purchase decisions on armory weapons once they are researched (and they all end up getting researched). Couldn't they do the same with EXOs? I think they could.
When the question was asked to me about the EXO, it wasn't asked from a balance perspective. It was asked from a "why can't I buy this to have fun" aspect. I explained about the necessary buildings, upgrades and such, and then they asked why is it that they could buy an Onos but not an EXO "with their own money". I then explained about the CCs and they (aptly) asked why it was like that.
Frankly, I've pondered what the game would be like if the EXOs were as common as shotties. (bearing in mind not with the same combat stats of course) Yuno maybe a 200ish armor EXO with one LMG. So instead of a shottie where you pay for increased firepower, the EXO would be a strict armor upgrade with no improvement in damage. One choice gives you more damage, the other makes you harder to kill. Then you can have the commander research more upgrades for it as the game progresses, leading to the dual-mini endgame EXO at the highest tier. Heck, they could even build in speed upgrades to this 'cheap' EXO, which would preclude the ability to make it more deadly. An EXO that could run as fast as a marine but only had 200 armor and an LMG? Would be interesting to test!
From a strict gameplay standpoint, people love playing in the EXOs, and who can blame them. No matter how we slice it, they are fun to play and a different experience from the stock marine. Just as is the jetpack. The aliens have all these various and different lifeforms that provide different gameplay experiences, which is great. They are all accessible for the most part too, which is also great. I'd love to see the EXOs see more playtime in a balanced capacity, since I think it could draw in more players. Heck, even jetpacks could be made cheaper and easier to acquire but made 'weaker' so they could see more use.
Variety is never a bad thing. We can always balance it out in the end.
For example, the flip side would be to make it so you can't go onos without 2 or 3 hives. No one suggested that, and I don't think that it would be very fun. I enjoy the ability to be able to have access to all the classes in the game, regardless of game state (even then, you would still have had to get to the proto lab in the first place).
In terms of balance, there are many things you can do. Res cost, armor amount, damage, ect. I heard someone mention they would love an exosuit that had a flamer. If the base exo only had a flamer (and less armor), that would alleviate the camping aspect. The first exo push would still be quite useful (skulk and cyst rape), but for real onos/hive destruction you would need the more expensive dual exo. Marines would have jetpacks too, but that also has the side effect of encouraging marines to move out of that last spawn, which is a good thing IMO.
I the better solution in this situation is to tie armor/weapon upgrades to command chairs. This would also give marines an incentive to expand past 2 besides just denying hive locations and backup chairs. It also alleviates end game marine spawn camping. Although it is such a simple solution I sort of doubt the devs have not considered it already these past years.
ok then ill bite, why
would you rather spend 50 res and then die in 3 hits , last one around a corner during blink? or wait a little longer and steamroll marines with onos.
would you rather spend 50 res and then die in 3 hits , last one around a corner during blink? or wait a little longer and steamroll marines with onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he was using sarcasism...
I think if we're using the widely used Jetpack as a counterpart, we can at least get an idea of why it is a better choice...
<ul><li>Jetpacks:
<ul><li>Superior movement, the more you have the more map control you have (usefull for final base push and map control)</li><li>Less dependent on team compared to base marine and EXO, due to suprior movement</li><li>Can use any weapon</li><li>Can use Phasegates</li><li>Can help construction and repair</li><li>Requires armories or ammo drops for weapons</li><li>Flashlight is the reason people disable atmospherics</li><li>Beacon to main base is still as effective as ever, even more so due to the now superior movement, compared to the basic marine</li></ul>
</li><li>EXO
<ul><li>Slow movement, there more there are the less map control you have (usefull for final base push)</li><li>Highly dependent on his team having welders</li><li>Can only use the Brofist or Dual minigun (which cause him to see "nothing")</li><li>Can't use Phasegates</li><li>Can't construct or repair</li><li>Unlimited ammo and superior firepower</li><li>Superior Flashlight</li><li>Beacon to main base can cause the EXO's to be destroyed</li></ul></li></ul>
They seem to balance out to some extent, but the jetpack is cheaper and will always be the best choice in a game where movement and map control are key... The limitations on the EXO are there to keep it balanced, but it is so dependent on the team it is also its Achilles heel...
Gameplay>Balance
You can always adjust balance variables to suit any kind of gameplay alteration. While there are many die-hards who only see the game through a 'balance' lens, part of my job (in real life) is looking at a title from the eyes of the average person *playing* it. My first thought isn't "is it balanced?", my first thought is "is it fun?". The reason being is that you can always tweak the balance later. I know that this POV may irk people at times, but the reality is that people play games to have fun, they don't play them to enjoy the finer points of game balance. That's why I always put 'fun' above 'balance'.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, the flip side would be to make it so you can't go onos without 2 or 3 hives. No one suggested that, and I don't think that it would be very fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Exactly. I've never suggested any such thing, and you are right, it's counter-intuitive to fun gameplay. People have a blast when they go Onos, there is no reason to make it harder for a person to buy themselves an Onos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I the better solution in this situation is to tie armor/weapon upgrades to command chairs. This would also give marines an incentive to expand past 2 besides just denying hive locations and backup chairs. It also alleviates end game marine spawn camping. Although it is such a simple solution I sort of doubt the devs have not considered it already these past years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well to be fair the original game never needed more than one CC, so this is still a fairly new concept. (as is an immobile CC)
However, tying armor/weapon upgrades to the second CC could work, although they might need to change it from the current three stage upgrade to either 2 or 4 stage. I'm thinking 4 stage, since it's a more gradual strength progression. They could make the upgrades cheaper (relatively speaking, spread the cost of 3 upgrades over 4 stages) and then split the upgrades over two CCs. Upgrades 1 & 2 are available with the base CC, and upgrades 3 & 4 are tied to the second CC. Taking out the second CC effectively weakens the marines by 50%.
There would be only one possible concern I would have, and that would be the 'gg scenario'. IOW, as soon as marines lose the second CC everyone is saying "it's all over" and "gg" etc as they press F4 to go to the ready room. To be fair, this could significantly limit marine 'comebacks' in the later game, and could make surrenders more common.
Anyway, I didn't want to get into balance since that's something that can be covered a dozen different ways. I just wanted to look at the issue of getting the advanced marine tech into the hands of the marines more often.
Not so long ago, I was khammandee snd i saw 1 fade solo 2 exo and 1 welder. Was beautiful. I dare you to do that with your onos. You just dont know how to play fade.
Probably a superior skilled Fade vs an average skilled EXOs or EXOs that were already heavily damaged, not really a good example...
fack, i had cl_forumsarcasmdetection set to 0
all fixed :D
ALL day, EVERYDAY lol
when i com i dont even research exo until i get jp and w2a2 because i find JP is FAR more useful.
i still dont agree with this for multiple reasons.
Hey yeah... That explains everything right? Anytime anyone questions anything about the game, let's just say "asymmetric game" and tell them to gtfo right? I mean, we can send the developers home now. Any issues that come up can easily be solved by saying "asymmetric game", amirite?
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot the "dur dur get a better commander", "dur dur shoot better", and my personal favorite "join a better server".
I see you too can appreciate arguments as robust and thought out as those too! ;)
I was just in a game a few hours ago where I was unable to use the res I had accumulated all game to get an exo, which would have helped turn the tide, because we lost our second CC.
Needless to say, we lost that command chair because after we attacked and killed a hive, 2 onos annihilated our forces and made a beeline for our undefended base.
<!--quoteo(post=2051901:date=Dec 27 2012, 12:23 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 27 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh, if there are 3 or 4 marines who can afford to go EXO, why would they wait until after they lose their second CC? :) Heck, it seems now as soon as anyone can afford an EXO they buy it and run out to get slaughtered. If marines have 4 people sitting at 75+ res, then the comm will tell them to grab an EXO and make a push. Is it *possible* that what you say could happen? Yes, absolutely. People might want to wait for the 'perfect moment' and then end up waiting too long. Is it *probable* that marines would sit on their EXO res while they are being slaughtered and losing bases? IMHO, no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
14 hours later...
<!--quoteo(post=2052216:date=Dec 28 2012, 02:30 AM:name=GreatGrizzly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreatGrizzly @ Dec 28 2012, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was just in a game a few hours ago where I was unable to use the res I had accumulated all game to get an exo, which would have helped turn the tide, because we lost our second CC.
Needless to say, we lost that command chair because after we attacked and killed a hive, 2 onos annihilated our forces and made a beeline for our undefended base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh.
14 hours later...
heh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I literally got the 50 resource point as the CC was being attacked. I was repairing an EXO (we where the only two people) guarding our flank. I had no idea that the other teams attack failed until it was too late. It kinda sucks that I got punished because their attack failed.
More like you got punished because your team failed.
Working as intended.
Not to pick on this guy but:
(Bolded and underlined for emphasis)
He does not find it fun to rely on the commander. If the Commander never researches EXOs, and the players want to have fun playing them, what then? The RTS portion of this game isn't always fun; but it is part of the game and the game as a whole IS fun.
The line has to be drawn somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean like the line were you cross over into being an ass by commenting on something I said in another thread that has nothing to do with this one? Quite a line indeed. Grow up dude.
Take your name calling elsewhere.
I imagine that this is part of the reason why CCs have to be placed on tech points now and also why you need two tech points to get EXOs. Without the requirement, we are back to NS1 marine stalemates. They were only partly fun for marines and no fun for aliens; even with three hives, you oftentimes could not break that turtle. More of my friends stopped playing NS1 because too many games degenerated into this; the end game was no fun. Allowing EXOs on one CC would be a step backward to the old NS1 stalemates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry for pulling an rather old point back into this discussion but i think there is on angle missing from this scenario. It happened more than once that Marines, turtled in like this, managed to stage a comeback after carefully saving up enough HA/Weapons. That's one of the things that made NS1 stalemates actually exciting, because they could end up turning the game around for the Marines. It's these kinds of rounds that people remembered as being "epic".
This aspect is currently missing completely from NS2, i would argue due to powernodes it's right now exactly the opposite. Marines on 1 base have a very hard time getting back into the game once they are contained. They can't get JP's for mobility to get out of base, building Ninja PG's is a massive pita due to not being able to build on infestation and the requirement of having to build a powernode in addition to that PG.
On the Kharaa side of things it's way easier to cripple the Marine team even with 1 Hive. The only thing that's needed is 1 smart Onos or a Gorge who has still Bilebomb or 2-3 good Skulks to hit the Marine base in a good moment and down goes the whole Marine base, forcing attacking Marines to retreat or in the worst case (whole base is lost) to tech back all the way to Exo/JP (New AA, New Proto).
Having 1 CC Exo's at least would give Marines a fighting chance even when contained to one tech point, instead of making it an endless drag to wait for the Kharaa to finally end it. Which often means waiting till the Khamm has creeped up the whole map until he reached both sides of the Marine base. Turtles on their own are not that bad, what makes them bad is when they only serve to prolong an already lost round. So shouldn't the solution rather be to make a comeback more likely instead of punishing an already downed enemy even more by taking all his chances of a comeback? Because of these dynamics it's so friggin common to see rounds end in recycles or surrender votes and ending rounds like that is not only anti-climatic it's also all kinds of boring.
Nop. It was on a pub and the guy had a very average k/d ratios. But he wad using his fade the way its meant to. Blink In, swipe one or twice then blink out. Fafe are NOT meat shields. Both blink AND the shift key are abilities that gets you yo move very qiick + the low hp.. Iimho its a huge HINT as to how its meant to he played.
Then it was switched around to allow higher lifeforms, but researchable Tier tech like stomp would still be tied to TP.. The current requirements feel like a leftover from these changes.
Obviously Tying tech to techpoints is crucial because techpoints are forward bases and this game is about map control.. thus if you lose map control you should lose tech - for a multitude of reasons already stated in this thread.
That all being said, i'd like to see greater restrictions / dependency on map control/techpoints to gain tech and less dependency on commander decisions. I.e. You can purchase an Exo if you have X techpoints regardless of commander researched, yet armor research is dependent on techpoints as well and still must be researched like stomp. This would create more of that symmetry in tech between the two teams, given how the Onos currently works. Not saying this is "the solution" but i would like to see how it plays out and how much of an impact certain factors have like elodea pointed out..
<b>tldr</b>: flip flopping on high level designs to accommodate unlocked lifeforms to avoid a predictable tech path (quick 2nd hive everytime) has led to the current configuration - but exos never went through this and were simply implemented with more requirements. There are good and bad sides to this and it has been balanced around it thus far, but it doesn't mean it cant change or be tweaked.
This is a point that has been raised before though. Although not directly related to the topic, it is peripherally related. One huge issue with NS2 is that it has very little forgiveness, yet makes it hard to finish a game.
IOW, quite often if marines lose their SECOND command chair, they have essentially lost the game. No this doesn't always happen, but more often than not it does. Either from a large attack, or from a skulk munching on a power node that doesn't get notified to the team, the second base is gone and the marines are effectively 'done'. Not only have they lost the tech point, they have lost the one thing that might have been able to help them stage a comeback.
While some may crow about 'working as intended', if that's the case then <b>let's end the game right then and there</b>. So if marines lose ANY command chair, it's game over. No more games dragging on for a half hour while aliens decide to get their act together. (or until marines leave the server) If losing that second CC means marines lose the game, then let's end it and get the next game started.
If this is not what is intended, then let's let people have their EXOs that they have saved all game for.
I'm in agreement with Torak when he talks about not prolonging games. I'm not looking for turtle material. However, if marines aren't supposed to be able to stage a comeback, then let's just end it already. I'm cool with that. If marines know that losing either of their command chairs will lose them the game, it will be an incentive to pay more attention to it. (if they have more than two, they can lose other chairs so long as they hold two)
The gameplay is where I see the problem. Why can't people have their 'toys'? Forget balance here, (since balance is easy to fix) so why can't people buy that EXO that they have saved all game for? That's the question that begs to be answered.
Hey, in any game that I'm in, I'm watching the map constantly. If we get attacked, then I will call it out and suggest a beacon. If we can't beacon the base being attacked I will suggest to beacon to our main base for people to grab their EXOs before we lose second CC. I've done this many times as I often hold back on getting an EXO, since they are pretty much wasted res anyway. However, in the case of a lost CC there's nothing left to lose by getting an EXO at that point. (usually I'm the guy running around with my welder out pressing M1 - oh the excitement!)
Well, I'd still like to see this worked into the game somehow. I'd also like to see ways to end the game when one team clearly has 'won'. Stalemates aren't fun, I certainly agree with you there.
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The long and short version of it for me is that each side needs to have vulnerable buildings that reduce that race's offensive capabilities. I'm pretty sure that most Onos won't charge in if they don't have something like Carapace or Celerity, which the marines can take out. Similiarly, if you're a Skulk staring down an army of Exos, your only possible counter might be to just attack the second command chair to keep them from building them.
It's nice to have factors like that playing into the game of "Which structure/location is the most important to attack?"
The point I'm trying to make is that people should be able to play with the marine 'toys'. Forget balance (as it's easily adjusted), look at gameplay alone. Why should aliens be the only team to get to play with the 'ultimate' unit, why shouldn't marines have the same chance? While the commander's choice should play a role in deciding the marine's destiny to an extent, it still should not preclude marines being able to have fun.
While some may crow about 'working as intended', if that's the case then <b>let's end the game right then and there</b>. So if marines lose ANY command chair, it's game over. No more games dragging on for a half hour while aliens decide to get their act together. (or until marines leave the server) If losing that second CC means marines lose the game, then let's end it and get the next game started.
If this is not what is intended, then let's let people have their EXOs that they have saved all game for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, that's a false choice if I've ever seen one.
You're saying that marines will lose more often than not if they lose their second tech point (presumably, for free in your scenario). Okay, I agree so far... but then you present two options:
a) end the game when any cc dies
b) agree with your idea that pres items should be purchasable at any point in the game
How about:
c) this idea is dumb and you're presenting really bad arguments for why it should be allowed
If you really think that marines should be able to buy exosuits at any time then why can't I buy shotguns without them being researched? Why do I have to wait for jetpacks to be researched before I can buy jetpacks. I want to play with jetpacks. Let me buy jetpacks whenever I want. I earned the pres, where is my jetpack? The argument that because I want something, I should get be able to get it without the requirements being met is not good for the game. NS2 is balanced around being able to deny your opponent power through various actions like killing RTs or holding tech points.