Alien cloak/hiding in vents a bit op
thar
Join Date: 2012-12-26 Member: 176293Members, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-12-26 Member: 176293Members, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Hi,
I'm completely new to this forum as well as to this game (about 34 hours played) but still I found some really fun-killing things while playing.
The first thing is alien cloaking - as soon as the commander develops the cloak upgrade the marines have a really bad time. There's no way a single marine or a squad of marines can detect a cloaked alien, even if he stands just next to them. Okay, the commandor can perform a scan, but it cost resources while alien cloaking is completely free. You can also try to shoot random places - if you are lucky you might have a chance to hit a hidden alien (it's not really a valid option though).
The flashlight is completely useless in this matter.
My propositions of solutions:
1. Flashlight shining directly on a cloaked alien creates a graphical effect (always or only if the alien moves).
2. Give marines movement detectors which can be bought like welders (forces teamplay). One team member has to have a movement dectector and tell the rest about what he sees. Aliens can still stand in place to be invisible, but they must be sneaky if they want to attack someone in the open. It discourages lone-wolf tactics (both on the alien and marine sides).
3. Give marines termovision googles - while having them on, the marine sees only warm targets, so no walls, no ceilings, just aliens and fellow marines. It makes movement almost impossible because you don't see obstacles, but allows taking stationary guard positions. It could also show infestation as a warm target so it would be useless in hives and around them. Still this would be very op, so we should also consider giving aliens some "no heat signature" evolution trait (next to silence and cloak). It would force marines not to rely only on termovision.
As for the vents. Most vents are created in a L shaped way. The alien hides just around the bend, then jumps out for a second, sends a distant attack and hides again, repeating this tactic.
Marines can just stand and watch and try to shoot with almost next to no luck, especially if the vent entrance is too high for them to jump into (considering someone wants to jump in there and die a second later).
Solution:
1. Give marines a single hand granade or some stunning granade (second one is a bit too op I guess).
2. Give marines a way to seal vent entrances (I heard it's on the way?).
These are just random ideas but I guess they would make playing a bit more creative and fun.
PS. Sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker ;).
I'm completely new to this forum as well as to this game (about 34 hours played) but still I found some really fun-killing things while playing.
The first thing is alien cloaking - as soon as the commander develops the cloak upgrade the marines have a really bad time. There's no way a single marine or a squad of marines can detect a cloaked alien, even if he stands just next to them. Okay, the commandor can perform a scan, but it cost resources while alien cloaking is completely free. You can also try to shoot random places - if you are lucky you might have a chance to hit a hidden alien (it's not really a valid option though).
The flashlight is completely useless in this matter.
My propositions of solutions:
1. Flashlight shining directly on a cloaked alien creates a graphical effect (always or only if the alien moves).
2. Give marines movement detectors which can be bought like welders (forces teamplay). One team member has to have a movement dectector and tell the rest about what he sees. Aliens can still stand in place to be invisible, but they must be sneaky if they want to attack someone in the open. It discourages lone-wolf tactics (both on the alien and marine sides).
3. Give marines termovision googles - while having them on, the marine sees only warm targets, so no walls, no ceilings, just aliens and fellow marines. It makes movement almost impossible because you don't see obstacles, but allows taking stationary guard positions. It could also show infestation as a warm target so it would be useless in hives and around them. Still this would be very op, so we should also consider giving aliens some "no heat signature" evolution trait (next to silence and cloak). It would force marines not to rely only on termovision.
As for the vents. Most vents are created in a L shaped way. The alien hides just around the bend, then jumps out for a second, sends a distant attack and hides again, repeating this tactic.
Marines can just stand and watch and try to shoot with almost next to no luck, especially if the vent entrance is too high for them to jump into (considering someone wants to jump in there and die a second later).
Solution:
1. Give marines a single hand granade or some stunning granade (second one is a bit too op I guess).
2. Give marines a way to seal vent entrances (I heard it's on the way?).
These are just random ideas but I guess they would make playing a bit more creative and fun.
PS. Sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker ;).
Comments
I very much like your idea of adding motion trackers, perhaps similar to those seen in the Alien Quadrilogy (of which I am a fan). I also think that you are right in saying that a distorted outline of cloaked aliens should be visible in direct light.
You Infra-Red Goggles present a very interesting defense method against sneak attackers. Having played almost entirely as Alien I know how easy it is to hide on the ceiling of a marine base. I also agree that a single hand grenade would be useful, for many situations, but especially to take out hidden shooters.
Dan.
skulks are designed to be hit and run, the vent poking is a legitimate strategy for a skulk but can be OP for a gorge with bile bomb. (1 gorge, 1 base, 1 minute, no problem X).)
I think what marines are missing are RPG's, sure we have grenade launchers but they dont reach ceilings.
I do like the flashlight idea, but that would be quite powerful in the hands of people who know where Skulks tend to hide...
skulks are designed to be hit and run, the vent poking is a legitimate strategy for a skulk but can be OP for a gorge with bile bomb. (1 gorge, 1 base, 1 minute, no problem X).)
I think what marines are missing are RPG's, sure we have grenade launchers but they dont reach ceilings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup I know, but they're not very portable if you know what I mean ;). Detector towers are great when it comes to defending a position, but NS isn't about defending, it's about attacking, and when it comes to performing an attack on cloaked alien position they only have that commandor scan, which is great if you know that there are some aliens in the room, yet it's not that good when it comes to avoiding ambushes e.g. on the way towards the hive or in the first minutes of the game, when marines have to claim as many extractors as they can. They don't have any means of detecting cloaked aliens then, they can only go and hope that the cloaked skulk will attack and kill only one of them ;P. Falling headfirst into an ambush is not really a real life option if you ask me ;P.
I'd understand if they fell into an ambush because of reckless behaviour, but failing into one because they don't have any portable way of detecting invisible enemies? That's just silly. And please remember that scanning still consts resources and because of that cannot be used all the time, while cloaking is a free ability.
And same for the aliens - as soon as they have the cloak ability all the sneaking and hiding isn't necesary anymore. You can just become invisible and take a walk towards a group of marines, kill one, hide, repeat. Giving marines e.g. the ability to get a hint about some aliens coming just by shining the flashlight on them while they move, would bring back the sneaky part - no more walking straight towards the enemy, you have to use the vents, alternative routs, the ceiling etc. because they can still spot you if you'll be too reckles and/or they'll be vigil enough.
As soon as there is a scan or an observatory, the alien advantage is completely negated whereas other Hive choices would still be viable. Any somewhat decent commander will keep giving his marines some scans not on every moment but on regular intervals around them or in key locations, so he knows beforehand where aliens are, until observatories are up in that location.
Once the troops have an idea of nearby aliens, it gets a lot harder for the aliens to ambush them. Armor upgrades are also an important thing if the enemy went with Shade first because it negates the first strike advantage that the aliens may get. Alone marines are easy prey for aliens, but it gets a lot harder if they move in groups because this also reduces the number of different locations that the commander has to scan.
You don't need Observatories at every location because it's often not worth the cost, Tech Points and choke areas are fine enough. If you can lock aliens down in an area and cover all exits with Observatories, they won't get past you without you noticing and their Shade upgrades are completely worthless compared to what use the other Hive upgrades would have been in a combat situation.
There are already so many hard counters to cloak that anything less than it currently is would make it a pointless upgrade again that will only be picked as third Hive choice when it's mostly useless already due to the progression of marines in the map.
Flashlight shining directly on a cloaked alien creates a graphical effect (always or only if the alien moves).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love the Idea too. Fits really well with the Nature of this game. One of the greatest Suggestions I've ever seen in this Forum <b>but still op</b> without having to spend any <b>Res</b> or <b>Upgrade</b> to Unlock this kind of Counter. Maybe something like a simple purchasable Marine equipment from the Armory (<b>thermal flashlight</b> or whatever You Wanna Call It) cost : 10 Res for exemple.
Don't get me wrong, the kneading of ideas is a huge part of this game's development, and one of the things that, to me, makes NS not just a game but a community. But, camo has been tread over so many times it hurts my head.
As I said in previous posts: please let's let camo play out for a while. It really is not as OP as a lot of people are saying. No one enjoys suddenly getting chomped on, but going early camo has its own set of drawbacks and counters.
We didn't have the resources for constant scans (not that we could scan 2-3 places on the map in the same time - our commandor was decent but not that great) we couldn't afford placing guards in every position (sentries are useless without help as everybody knows), we didn't have any useful gaget to see those cloaked enemies and no time to build an observatory, so we lost every single time.
Don't know if this tactic is known to you guys, but it surely is very useful and effective (especially that Gorge balls on extractor positions ;))
I'm not even mad, I'm just very convinced that cloaking is the best way to win a match playing khaara.
Maybe during those professional matches with profesional teams and a good commandor marines can win this kind of match, but not normal pub players.
I'm not asking for anything special, just the possibility to have a chance to see a cloaked alien when it moves, not always, only if it moves, it would make our lives a lot easier ;) (the solution with the flashlight would be awesome, not too op but enough to have a chance aginst them ;))
<!--quoteo(post=2052080:date=Dec 27 2012, 04:34 PM:name=Kazel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kazel @ Dec 27 2012, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another day, another camo thread, and every time a die a little on the inside.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if it's really at daily basis, so... don't you think that there's clearly something wrong with it?
BTW. The animation of reloading is a bit off - after emptying a magazine you shouldn't pull the first bullet again with the charging handle, the lock should block itself in the back position after firing the last bullet ;).
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126263" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126263</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125983" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125983</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126263" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126263</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125983" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125983</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup it sums it all up ;). Didn't change my mind about cloak being op though - it just says that it all comes down to tactic, so if you have a good commandor, a good team and you're really fast not to allow aliens to spread too much, you'll win. Otherwise, if you're in a lockdown, which is very easy to accomplish in certain positions on the map - like Sub-Sector or the Atrium, which can be locked by 3-4 gorges, not to mention invisible skulks - and can't get upgrades due to lack of resources, you're completely screwed and can only surrender. "Seems legit" :D.
I completely understand all the philosophy behind the way things are, and can't say I disagree, but I can still have my own opinion ;). Thanks for the links, they gave a few nice tactical ideas ^^.
We didn't have the resources for constant scans (not that we could scan 2-3 places on the map in the same time - our commandor was decent but not that great) we couldn't afford placing guards in every position (sentries are useless without help as everybody knows), we didn't have any useful gaget to see those cloaked enemies and no time to build an observatory, so we lost every single time.
Don't know if this tactic is known to you guys, but it surely is very useful and effective (especially that Gorge balls on extractor positions ;))
I'm not even mad, I'm just very convinced that cloaking is the best way to win a match playing khaara.
Maybe during those professional matches with profesional teams and a good commandor marines can win this kind of match, but not normal pub players.
I'm not asking for anything special, just the possibility to have a chance to see a cloaked alien when it moves, not always, only if it moves, it would make our lives a lot easier ;) (the solution with the flashlight would be awesome, not too op but enough to have a chance aginst them ;))
Well if it's really at daily basis, so... don't you think that there's clearly something wrong with it?
BTW. The animation of reloading is a bit off - after emptying a magazine you shouldn't pull the first bullet again with the charging handle, the lock should block itself in the back position after firing the last bullet ;).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As per other posts, you have lost because you tried to play a resource game with an alien team that had gone "all in" on a tech point strategy.
Aliens NEED a 3rd hive more than they need their 2nd hive with this camo first strategy as 2 hives does not allow for both celerity and carapace. Its with the 3rd hive that aliens get to their peak attack/defense capabilities instead of the usual 2nd hive.
You lost because your team/comm used the wrong strat, different maps need different strats, different strats need different counter strats.
Wtih camo 1sst you MUST SECURE 2nd point straight off the bat, buikd obs and hold until you can get phases up. Its worth considering the cc considering the beacon abilities.
This is what all bar 1-2 ppl focus on. The other 1-2 heads of to get killed and try to cause havoc.
Once you have the 2nd tech point you need to either sit and tech or push the 3rd hive which would be their 3rd hive then build OBS PG CC and you sit and turtle whilst you tech up for final assault. (4 tech point maps the former, 5 tech points the later).
This strategy is an easy counter as long people follow commands and dont rambo like normal, sorry you dont get that luxury...but your facing weaker skulks/lerks/fades either from a HP or mobility abilities stand point, either way you have a significant advantage, you just need to move in packs with a strategy appropriate to counter what the alien khamm is doing.