Super Tech for Turtle Breaking

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Comments

  • JowJow Join Date: 2011-06-23 Member: 106032Members
    Maybe after you unlock all the other tech there could be some type of 'Future Technology' unlock, like in Civ II, that gives you a 1% boost in every category per upgrade level and costs maybe 100 tres per upgrade or something.

    Could probably contribute to the game ending without being crazy broken.
  • ZenuZenu Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72861Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Turtle ends quickly with onos train and simultaneously quickly infestating their base and teleporting dozens of whips through upgraded shift next to their power node. :)
  • AxehiltAxehilt Join Date: 2003-09-12 Member: 20796Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2052692:date=Dec 28 2012, 11:47 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Dec 28 2012, 11:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a skill issue not a game issue. There are many elegant ways to end the game, it's the players that make it painful to finish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    And if aliens held out on 1 hive in the same way, this would be a valid point. But aliens get absolutely crushed at 1 hive. Marines should be crushed the same way.
  • AxehiltAxehilt Join Date: 2003-09-12 Member: 20796Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2052775:date=Dec 29 2012, 06:13 AM:name=AlphaWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlphaWolf @ Dec 29 2012, 06:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might be worth forbidding armor/weapons 2 and 3 without a second CC. If they rebuild the CC, those upgrades return instantly without the need to re-research them. Or perhaps just forbid armor upgrades period without a second CC, but allow all weapon upgrades.

    This would also balance things further in that aliens are basically screwed if they don't get a second hive relatively early, whereas marines can safely put off a second CC for a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah I entertained a similar solution (let marines get Upgrade #2 (eg Armor 2) on 1 tech point, and even let them research Upgrade #3, but for Upgrade #3 to be active you need a second tech point). The main problem is that's a pretty obtuse game mechanic.

    I think there's a more elegant solution. Something like <i>"Command Stations increase marine damage/armor by x%" </i>

    Then it's just a tweak to base stats, and to upgrade effectiveness, and we've basically achieved what both of us are proposing except in a way that's easier to explain.
  • supsusupsu Join Date: 2012-04-24 Member: 151023Members, Squad Five Blue
    How about F4? It's pretty neat, I have heard.
  • Katana-Katana- Join Date: 2008-11-25 Member: 65575Members
    Every person in this thread who has made some kind of 'l2p' response is completely missing the point.

    In pubs, people don't know how to play.

    If new players have to sit through a 1 hour long game, about half of them are going to have a terrible time. It isn't fun for the marines to turtle, and it isn't fun for the aliens to break the turtle.

    The game should finish gracefully.

    also, the worst turtles happen when marines are holding two tech nodes, and nothing else on the map. This can take a very long time to break.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    Umbra. Vortex. Stomp. Xenocide.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2052946:date=Dec 29 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 29 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if aliens held out on 1 hive in the same way, this would be a valid point. But aliens get absolutely crushed at 1 hive. Marines should be crushed the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe neither team should be crushed that way?
  • PimpToadPimpToad Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166005Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2052810:date=Dec 29 2012, 07:59 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Dec 29 2012, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines can rebuild the power node and it happens all the time in these turtle situations. You can also circle strafe around the CC. If you have 3+ Onos then a CC rush is the fastest way to end the game.

    Pro Tip: Don't send the Onos in alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If they can rebuild the power node then the alien team lacks the necessary manpower or teamwork to break down a more fortified CC. It only takes 1 Lerk to Umbra and Spore the Node to make it near impossible for the marines to repair. It only takes 1 Fade to keep destroying any marine trying to rebuild. It only takes 1 Onos to absolutely wreck w0/a0 marines. If you have 3+ Onos, then they will destroy the Node rather easily and it's just a matter of cleaning out w0/a0 marines.

    Or you can CC rush while taking constant fire from w3 marines. I'm not one to tell people how to play, but that sounds pretty dumb to me.

    Pro Tip: W3 does more damage than W0 Marines. Fades and Onos 2-hit Marines at A0.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2053083:date=Dec 29 2012, 07:01 PM:name=PimpToad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PimpToad @ Dec 29 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they can rebuild the power node then the alien team lacks the necessary manpower or teamwork to break down a more fortified CC. It only takes 1 Lerk to Umbra and Spore the Node to make it near impossible for the marines to repair. It only takes 1 Fade to keep destroying any marine trying to rebuild. It only takes 1 Onos to absolutely wreck w0/a0 marines. If you have 3+ Onos, then they will destroy the Node rather easily and it's just a matter of cleaning out w0/a0 marines.

    Or you can CC rush while taking constant fire from w3 marines. I'm not one to tell people how to play, but that sounds pretty dumb to me.

    Pro Tip: W3 does more damage than W0 Marines. Fades and Onos 2-hit Marines at A0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And you could forego all that protecting a dead power node by just killing the CC.
  • SeahuntsSeahunts Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151973Members
    I'm so bored of turtle mode marines. I dislike it no matter which end of it I am on.

    Yesterday I played a few games where trying to get the rookies to pilot some onos simultaneously to victory was like catching smoke with your bare hands. In all the games we owned the entire map bar their base and had crag / shift stations at their door step.

    <b>My proposal to end it would be a new alien super weapon that only gets unlocked after every single tech point other than the single remaining marine one on the map has a mature hive on it.</b> I figure this is the guaranteed no coming back point for marines. No idea what that weapon should be though. Double carapace maybe? Or someone mentioned global enzyme which also sounds good.

    To who ever mentioned a 2 command chair turtle, there is no such thing imo. If you let marines "turtle" on 2 CC's long enough a stream of A3 W3 Jet packs or exos will still emerge and can win. We had that situation in a game last night. Camo aliens from early game and we only managed to hang on to our two tech points. For some reason every time the aliens attacked our base, they sent all their onii to the CC to kill that, and every time they succeeded but lost all the onii and we just rebuilt it. After a long while we had enough res for exos and we eventually won.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=2053005:date=Dec 29 2012, 03:43 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Dec 29 2012, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every person in this thread who has made some kind of 'l2p' response is completely missing the point.

    In pubs, people don't know how to play.

    If new players have to sit through a 1 hour long game, about half of them are going to have a terrible time. It isn't fun for the marines to turtle, and it isn't fun for the aliens to break the turtle.

    The game should finish gracefully.

    also, the worst turtles happen when marines are holding two tech nodes, and nothing else on the map. This can take a very long time to break.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't think new players have a terrible time though. Those kind of deadlocks are annyoning for the more experienced players. Rookies don't know they're doing anything wrong and just keep having fun, even if it drags on for an hour. If anything, they're mostly shocked when a comm start recycling the ips or if half the team decides to f4, they'd rather keep going to the bitter end.

    Anyway, this simply is a game you really need to learn to play. New players need to adapt to the game, not the other way round. It's actually not that hard to end a turtle with the current game mechanics. You just need a minimum of communication, that's not too much to ask.
  • AxehiltAxehilt Join Date: 2003-09-12 Member: 20796Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2053022:date=Dec 29 2012, 04:00 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Dec 29 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe neither team should be crushed that way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I already discussed that possibility in my first post.

    <b>There are two paths which make sense for the game:</b>
    1. Neither team is crushed at 1 tech point, but both teams have "Superweapon" expenditures for decisively ending the game.
    2. Both teams are crushed at 1 tech point, removing the need for a superweapon.
  • PimpToadPimpToad Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166005Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2053086:date=Dec 29 2012, 06:09 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Dec 29 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you could forego all that protecting a dead power node by just killing the CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And your team can get wiped by W3 Marines as they try to kill the CC. It's like you want to give Marines the best chance of making a comeback or something...

    And let's not forget that killing the CC isn't the only victory condition yeah?
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=2052765:date=Dec 29 2012, 11:32 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Dec 29 2012, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its interesting to note that this problem is <b>incredibly </b>closely tied to the map layout, and not so much the skill of the players on the turtling team, or their tech.

    For example, I basically <b>never </b>see successful turtling in flight control hive, and to a lesser degree, atrium and sub access. On the other hand, Once marines are turtling in datacore it is almost impossible to end the game, and usually requires the comm to sell up. The same phenomena can be seen throughout all the maps. Veil starting point is very turtle friendly, while the other 3 tech points are not. Warehouse on tram allows for extremely effective turtling, while server and repair are terrible for it. Most of the tech rooms are turtle friendly on docking, except for generator.

    Its also worth noting that this only applies to marines. Aliens cannot turtle. If you've ever been in a situation where the aliens turtled on one hive for more than 5 minutes, your team was just horrendously bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I actually found Warehouse on Tram to be also quite turtle-friendly for aliens if marines start in Shipping and attack through a Phase Gate in Ore Processing. I've seen matches fail more than once because marines kept a pressure up on Warehouse but were unable to break it against constant barrages of 5+ crags and Gorges with Hydras. Marines tried so desperately to get into Warehouse that they forgot completely about pressuring the rest of the map because they also didn't manage to get past a Gorge base in Observation with constant Fade attacks.
    The only way to break the turtle in Warehouse was to get 4 or more ARCs there. In one case we won with that strategy, in the other did we just get rushed with Onos in Shipping and lost. The case where we won was an epic and long fought match of roughly an hour, though.
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    Aliens simply can't turtle.

    Marine can turtle a bit, but it's no way comparable as NS1.
    It may take a while to gather and coordinate, but it's nice to execute the final crush.
  • MiniH0wieMiniH0wie Join Date: 2007-11-25 Member: 63013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2053083:date=Dec 29 2012, 05:01 PM:name=PimpToad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PimpToad @ Dec 29 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they can rebuild the power node then the alien team lacks the necessary manpower or teamwork to break down a more fortified CC. It only takes 1 Lerk to Umbra and Spore the Node to make it near impossible for the marines to repair. It only takes 1 Fade to keep destroying any marine trying to rebuild. It only takes 1 Onos to absolutely wreck w0/a0 marines. If you have 3+ Onos, then they will destroy the Node rather easily and it's just a matter of cleaning out w0/a0 marines.

    Or you can CC rush while taking constant fire from w3 marines. I'm not one to tell people how to play, but that sounds pretty dumb to me.

    Pro Tip: W3 does more damage than W0 Marines. Fades and Onos 2-hit Marines at A0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I've always seen Aliens win faster by going for the CC first. Sure the W3 hurts more but as long as you have 3 Oni hitting the CC, you may lose one of them but you'll still take out the CC and win the game.
    Where as going for the powernode first you're still taking fire from W3 until the power goes down and may lose an Oni in the process and now you still have to fight the remaining marines with low health since you took fire while attacking that power node. Odds are that you'll die if you stay to fight because you already have low health even if they only have w0.

    To win using your suggestion you need a coordinated attack from the entire team where as if you go for the CC first you could win using only 3-4 team mates.
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