Commander's Corner
FullMetalEngineer
Join Date: 2012-12-28 Member: 176494Members
Join Date: 2012-12-28 Member: 176494Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Prioritization of Resources & Advanced Command Techniques</div>Hey there everyone.
I didn't see a thread up similar to this one, so I've taken to creating one.
I've played a lot (a lot) of the old version of NS, and a few things are different here in NS2; sort of taking me by surprise.
I mean, this can probably be chalked up to inexperience in general with NS2, but I wonder if any NS2 commanders would share some advice for more advanced commanding techniques, and maybe some map-specific ideas as well.
What to do if:
1) Your team is consistently losing battles over resource nodes. Could the commander do more to assist the team?
i) alien solutions
ii) marine solutions
2) What upgrades are most useful in general, and why you think so.
3) What to do if you find your team expansion is stagnating. (ie marines or skulks not venturing into new areas, while having less resource towers)
Of course there are other facets to the game, but I find resources to be a high, if not the highest priority. So I'd like to start the discussion here, and then kind of branch out into different tactics depending on situations.
I also notice the commander has a lot more influence over the previous versions, especially since aliens now actually have a commander =p
Though I was a bit dismayed that the acid cannon was removed from the fades, and turrets are now essentially useless other than *MAYBE* covering a power node from an opportunist skulk who's not smart enough to attack the sentry battery first. I do like how both teams have to have a 'power' or 'creep' point active to keep their buildings under control.
Also, just as a general note, please keep the jeering and personal attacks to a minimum here; lets keep it classy kay guys, its a commander thread.
I didn't see a thread up similar to this one, so I've taken to creating one.
I've played a lot (a lot) of the old version of NS, and a few things are different here in NS2; sort of taking me by surprise.
I mean, this can probably be chalked up to inexperience in general with NS2, but I wonder if any NS2 commanders would share some advice for more advanced commanding techniques, and maybe some map-specific ideas as well.
What to do if:
1) Your team is consistently losing battles over resource nodes. Could the commander do more to assist the team?
i) alien solutions
ii) marine solutions
2) What upgrades are most useful in general, and why you think so.
3) What to do if you find your team expansion is stagnating. (ie marines or skulks not venturing into new areas, while having less resource towers)
Of course there are other facets to the game, but I find resources to be a high, if not the highest priority. So I'd like to start the discussion here, and then kind of branch out into different tactics depending on situations.
I also notice the commander has a lot more influence over the previous versions, especially since aliens now actually have a commander =p
Though I was a bit dismayed that the acid cannon was removed from the fades, and turrets are now essentially useless other than *MAYBE* covering a power node from an opportunist skulk who's not smart enough to attack the sentry battery first. I do like how both teams have to have a 'power' or 'creep' point active to keep their buildings under control.
Also, just as a general note, please keep the jeering and personal attacks to a minimum here; lets keep it classy kay guys, its a commander thread.
Comments
i) alien solutions
ii) marine solutions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
except if your team is not quite likely dying, no. sorry this is a resource deny game. you just cant ninja hive or ninja pg like in ns1, which cause a lot of table turning game.
<!--quoteo(post=2052207:date=Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM:name=FullMetalEngineer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FullMetalEngineer @ Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) What upgrades are most useful in general, and why you think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
jp/a1/w123/adrenline/carapace. you dun really need pg early unless you are in 12vs12 or your marines have problem holding down shift key, which you had lost long from the very beginning anyway. going camo first basically assumes that marines are retarded.
<!--quoteo(post=2052207:date=Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM:name=FullMetalEngineer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FullMetalEngineer @ Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) What to do if you find your team expansion is stagnating. (ie marines or skulks not venturing into new areas, while having less resource towers)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tell them to do so. if not, get a new server. there is nothing you can do if you told them and they are not doing it. res flow is too tight for those sg rewards like in ns1. they dun need YOUR reward anyway.
it is, after all, only, a resource denial game. pretty boring imho, even in competitive scene.
edit: although if you never even manage to get the closest rt's up in the first place then you are pretty much screwed anyway and no commander can turn it around :p.
i) alien solutions
ii) marine solutions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing com on public all the time, and I also can't find the real solution for this problem.
i) alien solution: haven't found any solution at all. The only thing you can (always) do, is distract marines to go somewhere else. If there is a push on RT's next to your base and they simply hold it, blocking you from any expansion, then order any skulk to go to <i>their</i> base and give a bite or two in any valuable structure, hoping for a distress or something. Very much interested in other opinions.
ii) marine solution: the expensive option. Build an armory and PG very close to the point you want to take, giving your marines a better fighting chance.
<!--quoteo(post=2052207:date=Dec 28 2012, 07:33 AM:name=FullMetalEngineer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FullMetalEngineer @ Dec 28 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) What upgrades are most useful in general, and why you think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On marine in pub I would always go for phasegates asap. If there are some good shooters on your team, you can wait a few minutes with the a1/w1 and go for expanding first. Holding 5 RT's, incl 3 tech points covered with armory and PG is then possible within 2 mins or so. Upgrades like mines CAN be very useful but I never research them early (on pub) because most players tend to sit on their res all the time..
As you already mentioned: the turrets are not that powerful so don't go robotics in the first minutes.
On aliens every upgrade is useful from mid- to end-game, but in the beginning celerity over adrenaline and carapace over regen. Also camo is a real useful one to start with IF your team knows how to use it. Skulks should then go to any early res node and destroy the RT after the building marines left it, staying hidden, staying out of fights. But on pub they probably won't do it, so then don't go for shade hive in the beginning.
<!--quoteo(post=2052207:date=Dec 28 2012, 07:33 AM:name=FullMetalEngineer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FullMetalEngineer @ Dec 28 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) What to do if you find your team expansion is stagnating. (ie marines or skulks not venturing into new areas, while having less resource towers)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Already said: if you told them to but they don't do it, there's nothing left to say. Maybe try to name people directly. "person A and B, go crevice", instead of "I need crevice" then they might listen.
<!--quoteo(post=2052207:date=Dec 28 2012, 07:33 AM:name=FullMetalEngineer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FullMetalEngineer @ Dec 28 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maybe some map-specific ideas as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When playing marine com on docking:
Rule: you will spawn terminal, and aliens won't spawn cafetaria. Therefore cafetaria will be dedicated to the marines in 95% of the games. So why would 7 marines walk there in the first minute of the game? Get your marines (let's say 3 or more) to take the <b>shortest</b> way into locker rooms! This is a very important tech point and a very difficult one to take back in mid-game. In the first minute it's free to take! Get them in and hold the point until you can buy a PG there. Bar and cafe are still free to take thereafter. (There is the option ofcourse that aliens start in locker rooms. Then it's still no problem to attack it with your 3+ marines, because aliens are probably not at home and won't defend the east entrance anyway, so you have a good chance of egg-locking them.)
For the other guys: I prefer to go to east wing with 2, building the RT if aliens aren't pushing from departures. But if they do, then push east wing to prevent them from building there. Don't build the RT because you will lose it anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2052207:date=Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM:name=FullMetalEngineer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FullMetalEngineer @ Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your team is consistently losing battles over resource nodes. Could the commander do more to assist the team?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) alien solutions
Depends on the situation:
1) You have more res nodes than the marines:
<blockquote>Give that one up, and get groups of skulks to hit various marine res nodes. Think skylights/topographical/overlook on Veil to try to force them to thin out to defend/rebuild. Then group your skulks up and take the res node you were after.</blockquote>
2) If you have less res nodes:
<blockquote>Give that one up and snipe as many marine extractors as you can, maybe get a few skulks to hit main base at the same time to try force a beacon then get out. Basically you have to keep the marines running around and on as low res as possible until your players start using higher lifeforms.</blockquote>
3) You really need to clear an area:
<blockquote>Eg: Locker Room. Sometimes I've placed a shift in ballcourt, gotten a group of skulks to hit locker at the same time and then the dying ones can quickly reinforce to give a much higher chance of clearing out the room. If you have enough sometimes it's good to get one or two skulks to try stay on the phase gate instead of everyone chasing around the lone marine until more phase in.</blockquote>
ii) marine solutions
Giving more aid in the form of med pack drops and ammo drops if needed. Also organising the team so you have the better shooters focusing on the more important areas, and the less accurate guys defending lone skulks/taking res nodes. Sometimes it's best to just give a location up and hit an important area for the aliens instead.
Having one player who knows how to move silently get a sneaky phase gate up works well in PUB's also.
<!--quoteo(post=2052207:date=Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM:name=FullMetalEngineer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FullMetalEngineer @ Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) What upgrades are most useful in general, and why you think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For aliens I like celerity/shift early because you can basically force your aliens to go where you need them, and lets them react abit quicker to threats. After that I always like leap/cara.
As marine I think phase gates are a must. Usually when I play as marine comm I get a phase from base to a location, and tell people to phase back to use the armoury instead of building a second one, it lets you get the phase up quicker and also lets you get more res nodes quicker.
<!--quoteo(post=2052207:date=Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM:name=FullMetalEngineer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FullMetalEngineer @ Dec 28 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) What to do if you find your team expansion is stagnating. (ie marines or skulks not venturing into new areas, while having less resource towers)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There isn't much you can do, if the players don't want to keep the aggression up then the team will probably lose. Having said that there are a few things I'm starting to do more because in my experience they work and help your team play together better:
<ul><li>Call players by name.</li><li>Congratulate players when they achieve a goal you set them.</li><li>Assist players with medkits/ammo who are following orders.</li><li>If you've had someone building forever swap him out with someone else. Let him know you want him in on the action also.</li><li>When things aren't going your teams way tell people not to worry you can't win them all.</li><li>Get mines, and get players to use them. Then they can also be more aggressive.</li><li>Try not to get frustrated over the mic!</li></ul>
Obviously some of those points are aimed not at that one game, but in keeping the players happy so they stick on the server. I've seen a few servers empty because of players/comm's who get angry when a team is losing.
A few important pointers that I've used to win with inferior teams:
1) Public games tend to get drawn out and last long. Upgrades carry excellent bang for buck even if you're low on resources. The faster you get em, the more bang you get
2) As the marine team you will rarely hold enough resource nodes to consistently use nano shield, or to tech jet packs fast. So don't waste your resources and build time in building a 2nd command station until far further in the game, just before you want to tech JPs or exos. Unfortunately a lot of newer comms drop command stations early in the game, but don't utilize them in any way.
3) Always build power before the RT - pubbies die, and that way you don't lose the RT.
4) Early phase tech is excellent not only because of it's power in minimizing "unutilized" marine time, ie. walking time, but also because it funnels marines into areas of the map where you want them. I don't use armories at PGs that often because that also encourages running back from the next room as it's easier to reload. Problem on public is almost always lack of aggression, so you don't want to encourage too much doubling back.
This works the other way around too. A couple of 2-crag stations in key locations as alien comm will funnel your skulks/gorges/lerks into the areas of the map you want to hold.
5) Related to above point, dropping enough ammo and meds keeps the momentum. If people have to run even 1 rooms length back to reload and heal at an armory, all the skulks they just killed will have enough time to run back. Winning a firefight is a signal to attack rapildy, and not take a breather. Dropping meds, ammo and encouraging attacking is what you need to be doing every time skulks die.
6) If you're low on resources, identify 1-2 decent marines in your team and focus your attention on them. Make sure they are medded and have ammo, and make sure they get to push and build forward phase gates and such. Two good players will do you much more good than 5 bad ones, so spend your resources accordingly - even get them tres shotguns / jets / whatever if they actually listen to you.
7) Don't upgrade early shotguns. People waste their personal ress and lose them anyway. Try to time your shotguns to first lerks (if you're doing well resource wise) or first fades (if doing not so well). They will be much more effective when you have established phase gates and the play is more focused -> marines group up more -> shotguns get to shine.
8) Patiently advice new players. They will take a liking to you and they are much more likely to listen to you and do what you say, if you are nice and patient with their questions - or proactively give them tips & help them out.
9) Don't try to cap the whole map. An RT has to stay up for a while to get on positive income for you, and even if one does, it still slows down everything else by 10 ress. Especially if you're team aren't that great and tend to die a lot, if you have a good push with 2+ marines going, encourage them to keep pushing instead of building RTs far out in the map. You will lose the marines and the RTs anyway - and if you go fast you have a much better chance of causing actual damage with the push.
Same goes for aliens if you have a decent marine team against you. Don't go for the typical "6 RT rush" public alien comms tend to do. Get fast upgrades and a faster hive, because again, the RTs will have to stay up a while to end up a positive investment. Rushing RTs and slacking on upgrades allows good marines to deal much more damage to your economy than if you were to keep things tight and skulks competitive. I like to go for fast carapace & a couple of crags near the hive to which I want want to expand to, just to get some friendlies to move through there. If you're close to dropping a hive, always build crags next to it to keep it healed up.
That'll be a start ;)
There are some pretty obvious but frequently overlooked ways of doing this, some of which have already been mentioned.
First of all, know what weapons accomplish what, and what you as a commander want to accomplish. Don't research a weapon that accomplishes something that you aren't aiming for. If you want geurilla marines sniping off upgrades and causing general mischief, and you have the players who can accomplish that, research shotguns. However, if behind enemy lines offence is not your game plan, and your marines lack the individual skill to pull such a thing off anyway, then don't waste your (and their) resources by researching shotguns. Marines with shotguns also tend to rambo off by themselves far more frequently, so if you want concentrated teamplay in priority areas, shotguns are a bad idea.
Dropped structures are good ways to move marines around in small areas. The build this waypoint is far more effective than the move here waypoint. The best example of this is socketing the power node a few seconds before dropping the extractor. Marines will be unlikely to go to the extractor first then, and less likely to die while building it and lose your res.
Upgrades subtly influence the choices your marines make as well. Give them more weapon upgrades, and they are likely to be more offensive and independent. More armour upgrades and they will tend to defend locations for longer and be more reliant on you. In my opinion, commanders that upgrade W1 then A1 then W2 then A2 etc are being indecisive and aren't making the most of their current situation. Always focus one or the other. Also bare in mind that new players benefit far more from weapons than they do from armour. Once a skulk is in melee range of an inexperienced player, they are essentially a write off, and no amount of armour is going to change that.
And my favorite force rallying technique: ARCs. Marines love to follow ARCs. Even the biggest rambo will follow an ARC train, if its big enough. The bigger the ARC train, the more marines will want to follow it. Can't get marines to listen to you? Send 5 or so ARCs to the waypoint and watch them fall in line.
Zenu
I agree with your early game points, sometimes I'll give 'bro tips' over the mike and tell new players little things like 'second function rifle attack' 'hold c to view map' 'for gorges to build they have to 'heal' the structure', little things like that for sure. lack of map awareness is a huge problem in pubs lol. So many missed kills and team assists, if only they were watching the radar!
And thanks for the turret placement advice! It's really tough only having three turrets maximum with a 180 firing arc =p
Akel
Thanks for the honesty, I figured there wasn't much we could do. In NS1 you could use turrets to support a team that had issues shooting, but not so much here in NS2 =p
Yeah, the alien learning curve is always steeper, and really tough for newer players. Funneling the players with a shift sometimes works, but.. not always =p
Though bile bomb is way more useful now..could be an option.
ChrisAUS
&
Tark
&
Imbalanxd
Thanks for all of your information you three, since you guys cover a few of the same points I'll throw a collective response. Though I would very much like to type a huge text wall for all three of you since you each cover some of the very important and unique aspects of commanding an NS team! And I do believe there is not a single thing I disagree with in your well-thought out responses. Those interested in commanding would do well to listen to your solid advice.
Thanks very much for your caution with pub shotguns. I'm used to playing with the veteran community of NS1, so shotgun/jp's were a mainstay, right? I <u>wonder</u> if this will have an effect on my victory rate % for pub games.
I really agree that upgrades, and weaponry does have a <b>very</b> pronounced effect on the pub team behavior. I'll make sure to keep an eye out for that next round I command. If there's good squad cover shotguns for sure! If they like to solo, I'll check out other options since they're 'write-offs' in melee range haha.
The same with pre-emptive crags to build a hive. It only makes sense to fortify -BEFORE- planting the hive or command chair! (and sometimes I don't do this =p) Though I notice a lot of pub alien players seem to completely underestimate the power the gorge holds..any thoughts on encouraging more gorging ? Sure everyone hates the builder in general since the K/D ratio isn't there.. but.. I've never seen a more angry marine team than when four gorges stop an exosuit assault dead in its tracks, and the arcs that came with it.
Encouraging a push/more aggression after winning a series of firefights is a tough thing to do. I will definitely use the arc-train and weapon3 upgrades advice, and try to speak more on the mike. I just hate the sound of my own voice, and tend to speak less than I really should..
Also, thank you for advice with identifying skilled marines/marines who get things done and do them well. I hate to show favoritism but sometimes I guess that's the best of a bad situation.
jp/a1/w123/adrenline/carapace. you dun really need pg early unless you are in 12vs12 or your marines have problem holding down shift key, which you had lost long from the very beginning anyway. going camo first basically assumes that marines are retarded.
tell them to do so. if not, get a new server. there is nothing you can do if you told them and they are not doing it. res flow is too tight for those sg rewards like in ns1. they dun need YOUR reward anyway.
it is, after all, only, a resource denial game. pretty boring imho, even in competitive scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry you find the game boring, Lofung. And to be honest with you, I was actually expecting a LOT more from NS2 as well -- Since the concept of a first person shooter / RTS game was already established in the NS1 era. I'm definitely a bit surprised they didn't see the need to develop the game past better graphics and changing the technology trees a bit as well. I was also again shocked at the lack of weapon variety, as well as maybe perhaps different beasts to evolve into, or other twists that could make the game more interesting... But you have to admit - the fun factor is there.
I guess I'll support this genre of game because it's a true team dynamic where the whole team has to function as a unit, and the more solid that unit is, the better the outcome, where a single player doesn't make too much of a difference, unlike in say, Unreal Tournament or Counterstrike, where one player can carry the team every game if needed.
I like and agree with jet packs as well as one upgrade to armor. Unless they're racking up 10 deaths each, no point, right?
Also I find that giving adrenaline to pub players can have mixed results, without celerity it seems they get shot more often than not because they forget to dodge duck dip dive and dodge..
There are some small variations. For example, getting the 2nd hive very early. Also the upgrade-paths are (despite what others say) all equally viable.<ul><li>Shade: The earlier you get this, the better. Camo skulks are most powerful in the early game. As soon as the marines have established phase gates and obs at other tech points, camo gets mostly useless. It is a high risk reward tactic to go shade first. Because you will missing craig and shift upgrades that are highly valuable for higher life forms.</li><li>Shift: Nearly mandatory on servers with 20 or more players. The egg-drop ability of the shift can save you from egg-locks but is also good to focus your troops (eggs from shifts are preferred from the spawn system). Celerity is good for skulks to traverse the map more quickly and adrenaline is nice for gorges, lerks and fades.</li><li>Craig: Carapace is an overall good upgrade. More armor can't be bad. Regeneration works also nice for lerks and camo skulks profit much from it. Also the craig building has a very high healing rate. It is very difficult for marines to kill a hive with 3 craigs around. They need to kill the craigs first.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=2052225:date=Dec 28 2012, 11:36 AM:name=ChrisAUS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChrisAUS @ Dec 28 2012, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There isn't much you can do, if the players don't want to keep the aggression up then the team will probably lose. Having said that there are a few things I'm starting to do more because in my experience they work and help your team play together better:
<ul><li>Call players by name.</li><li>Congratulate players when they achieve a goal you set them.</li><li>Assist players with medkits/ammo who are following orders.</li><li>If you've had someone building forever swap him out with someone else. Let him know you want him in on the action also.</li><li>When things aren't going your teams way tell people not to worry you can't win them all.</li><li>Get mines, and get players to use them. Then they can also be more aggressive.</li><li>Try not to get frustrated over the mic!</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is also very important. The RTS-part of NS2 isn't only about your APM, like in other RTS games. There is a very demanding social component. You won't believe how much influence moral has on the outcome of a game. If you can motivate your troops instead of yelling at them they will mostly respond to your orders. If you tell them they did good in accomplishing an objective, they will play better. Moral wins and loses games. A commander that is negative will lose more often than a commander that is joking around and motivate its troops. Most people underestimate this point. And than cry in the forum that nobody is listening at their orders. But it is to them motivating the people so they listen. (At least 80% of the time. The occasional noob that is just fiddling with his controls in the option menu won't listen anyway.)
There are some small variations. For example, getting the 2nd hive very early. Also the upgrade-paths are (despite what others say) all equally viable.<ul><li>Shade: The earlier you get this, the better. Camo skulks are most powerful in the early game. As soon as the marines have established phase gates and obs at other tech points, camo gets mostly useless. It is a high risk reward tactic to go shade first. Because you will missing craig and shift upgrades that are highly valuable for higher life forms.</li><li>Shift: Nearly mandatory on servers with 20 or more players. The egg-drop ability of the shift can save you from egg-locks but is also good to focus your troops (eggs from shifts are preferred from the spawn system). Celerity is good for skulks to traverse the map more quickly and adrenaline is nice for gorges, lerks and fades.</li><li>Craig: Carapace is an overall good upgrade. More armor can't be bad. Regeneration works also nice for lerks and camo skulks profit much from it. Also the craig building has a very high healing rate. It is very difficult for marines to kill a hive with 3 craigs around. They need to kill the craigs first.</li></ul>
This is also very important. The RTS-part of NS2 isn't only about your APM, like in other RTS games. There is a very demanding social component. You won't believe how much influence moral has on the outcome of a game. If you can motivate your troops instead of yelling at them they will mostly respond to your orders. If you tell them they did good in accomplishing an objective, they will play better. Moral wins and loses games. A commander that is negative will lose more often than a commander that is joking around and motivate its troops. Most people underestimate this point. And than cry in the forum that nobody is listening at their orders. But it is to them motivating the people so they listen. (At least 80% of the time. The occasional noob that is just fiddling with his controls in the option menu won't listen anyway.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your post, _Necro_
Yes I found Shade to be very difficult to pull off a win with a lesser skilled team, though the stealth guerrilla tactics of lerks and fades was pretty rewarding. Again, I completely agree that it's high risk. All it takes is one new player who doesn't upgrade camo to run behind all the stealth players and unstealth the whole group and ruin the surprise!
I usually run shift=>crag since the ability to move structures and eggs around the map is pretty useful, and devastatingly sneaky.
Thank you for your advice with the crags. Also, are the crags endlessly stacking or do they reach a cap ? I can't seem to find that tidbit of information anywhere for NS2.
I also fully agree with morale and motivation. A charismatic leader who is gracious in victory and defeat really influences the outcome, and causes everyone to try to stack his team every game it seems. Though it keeps a pub server alive and populated for longer - both good things in the bigger picture for sure.
make sure you have a mic ! Its so much easier to Co-ordinate a noob team when they can hear you, it seems noobs dont normally read text
as a marine : Note that noob marines have very poor situational awareness, as a commander you can help them immensly !
scans !!! Be careful they cost 3 res each, but used at the right time and place, they can save your nooby marines.
Phase gates !!! use them where you want to defend/push a location (be careful not to build too many !)
armor upgrades are more important !! your noobs have poor aim ! so they wont make best use of weapons upgrades, and they have poor situational awareness so its easy for skulks to get up close to them, so get them armor upgrades at all costs ! Armor 2 means a skulk takes 4 bites to kill your nooby marines
mines !!! this has been said before but ill say it again, use them for defence rather than sentries .... this leads me to my last point
DONT BUILD SENTRIES .... just dont do it,
As for aliens .... Use drifters !!!!
they give you an advanced warning as to when marines are coming for your res towers, this allows you and your team to be proactive in saving your res towers rather than reactive. It also helps you spot all in rushes (probably the number 1 reason why alien teams lose in pubs)
You will also lose resource towers and other buildings. There is another team playing too, and that is their goal. It gets annoying when the team all dies and you hear the commander crying about no one helping that building. I hear them just going off about it on the mic, even when no one is alive to go to that building. It seems that some commanders don't realize it takes time for the team to spawn again. This crying on the mic won't help these situations. It will only make most of us start ignoring you. Good luck holding the rest of the map while no one works together anymore!
Knowing how to stay calm and communicate is the most important thing for a commander.
1) Your team is consistently losing battles over resource nodes. Could the commander do more to assist the team?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a key difference between the two sides here, resources are easier to recap for marines then they are for aliens, meaning that whilst <b>aliens should prioritise protecting resources, marines should prioritise attacking resources.</b>
i) alien solutions
Generally, it is more important as an alien to protect resources, than it is to attack them. This is because of the ammount of time to that it takes to rebuild a resource tower, which is much higher for aliens.
Explain this to your team, and <b>Tell your kaharra team mates to prioritise protecting resources</b>.
<b>Ask if any of your team mates are willing to go gorge</b>, and protect resource towers, and/or key locations which allow marines access to your res towers. For instance, if you are holding data core and atrium hives, placing clogs and hydras in glass hallways protects the entrance to reactor core, and prevents one access point to both of your hive rts as well.
<b>If you are comm, go gorge yourself</b> when you have time, place your own clogs and hydras in a similar way, near whichever hive you will be sitting in, so that you can reinforce your own hydra/clog fort.
<b>Place drifters to give you early warning </b>for resource tower attacks, aliens cant use phase gates so having an extra 30 seconds warning on an attack will give your team time to respond.
<b>Place drifters to scout for gorge fortifications</b>, this will let the gorge there know when marines are backing off so that he can press the attack, it will let him know when marines are pushing in to great numberse for him to hold, it will let you know when to get out of the hive to protect your own gorge encampments.
<b>If a resource tower keeps going down, stop rebuilding it.</b> Marines will work the same angle over and over again if you let them, if marines are constantly harassing a res node, and you cant get a gorge to protect it, stop building it and try to claim another less fought over one. After marines have rushed once or twice uselessly to the empty node, <i>they will often stop rushing it all together, giving you the opportunity to rebuild it once they have stopped rushing it.
</i>
<b>Attack marine resource nodes / encampments,</b> nothing stops a team putting pressure on you like putting pressure back on them, forcing marines to recap and reducing the strength of their ofensive team.
ii) marine solutions
Generally as marines, it is better to attack resource nodes as recapping res is faster for marines. explain this to your team, and tell them that only one or two needs to recap, the rest should pressure alien resource towers.
<b>Placing phasegates can do a lot to protect your res</b>, looking at the map is key here, <i>if you get a phasegate in system waypointing, aliens will have a hard time gettin to sub, skylights, and overlook.</i> <i>Placing a defensive phastgate in the middle of all your rts, will allow marines to reinforce to those rts quicker,</i> for this reason, it is often NOT the best move to get a phase gate directly inside a tech point, as getting one in a room nearby will allow you to hold that tech point, as well as holding other resource nodes, and blocking the aliens main rushing route to those resource nodes.
a good alien team will be relentless in attacking resource nodes, unless they are pressured. <b>you must be equally relentless in recapping, whilst simultaneously putting pressure on the alien team</b>.
<b>It is allways worth sending 2 people to recap</b> on large servers, never 1. this can often stop aliens from playing the dodging vent hiding game, and means that you will often win the battle against the few aliens who have the presence of mind to pressure marine res towers when you are pressuding their team.
Use your ability to see alien movement after they have killed a marine to <b>give your team early warning on which res tower will be under attack next</b>, so that you can send your marines there before aliens start attacking it.
<b>never recycle a powerd fully built res node</b>, let aliens chomp on it. You might save it, and the ammount of resources that are given from the recycle are almost identical to what you would get if you left it running till the alien killed it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) What upgrades are most useful in general, and why you think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i) aliens:
<i>crag hive </i>- allows crag spam in the hive, making early hives almost impossible to kill
<i>Shift hive</i> - allows shifts to be placed in hives so that gorges can heal forever, and allows forward shifts to place eggs, which is great on big servers where you are plannin on lots of your aliens dying to superior marines. doesnt work so well if your aliens never die!
<i>Carapace</i> - great first upgrade, free armour, its great for noobs, as it give extra tanking ability!
<i>Regen </i>- great first upgrade for good team, as if they win an engagement, they are 5 seconds from full health, also allows skulks to dodge from behind corners and waste marine ammo, forcing a reload meaning that the skulk can attack a reloading marine whilst being on full health.
<i>Celerity </i>- ok first upgrade for pub servers, free speed, allows aliens to reinforce to far away, also make sit easier for aliens to group up for an attack more quickly.
<i>Adrenaline</i> - good late game upgrade, good for gorges espeically once they have bile bomb.
<i>Leap</i> - best upgrade! allows aliens to cut down the distance to marines, and to dodge crazily in combat.
<i>Bile Bomb</i> - AMAZING upgrade, if you see a robotics factory in marine base, you might want to consider gettin bile before leap, certianly before blink as it will PWN arcs. You as comm can go gorge in the hiv you think they will attack, so that when they do, you can jump out, bile, and save the day!
<i>Blink</i> - great for fades! an obvious must.
<i>Spores </i>- are a maybe upgrade.... good on noob servers, but they encourage lerks to do spore runs directly through marines, meaning that one good shotgunner can easily cap the lerk. I get this if people ask for it, otherwise i make my lerks fight without it, and they will last longer!
<i>Umbra</i> - great for breaking a marine siege at the end of game.
<i>Stomp</i> - great for breaking a marine siege at end of the game, great for destorying a marine team before jetpacks. espeiclaly great if you have any sort of team work, allowing the onos to stomp and his fellow aliens to get the kills. instruct your team to do this and explain how op it is! stomp is hard counterd by jetpacks.
<i>Vortex </i>- more or less useless, i never get it unless asked.
<i>Xeoncide </i>- more of less useless, i never get it unless asked.
ii)marines:
<i>Phase Tech</i> - lets you teleport around the map
<i>
Mines </i>- let you protect against early rushes, not so great late game, but still useful if used in moderation. Try getting a marine to place mines in main base around your comm chair, so that you can get out if there is one skulk in base, and dodge mines until aliens are dead, or you have reinforcements.
<i>Welders </i>- Great with good team work in conjunction with early armour 1, as marines will weld each other inbetween attacks, and allways face aliens on full hp. also do pretty amazing damage to aliens, and pwn cysts. on maps which require huge cyst chains, one marine with nothing but a welder can destory the alien team by killing all their cysts.
<i>Shotguns </i>- great vs everything. Only problem with gettin early shotguns is, your marines may waste all their p res, meaning that your jetpack rush is lacking in staying power. You can try to time your shotgun upgrade to conicide with jetpacks to eliminate thsi problem.
<i>GL</i> - great vs structures, and great during a hive attack as they can destroy huge crag encampemnts, and the gl spam on the hive means that aliens cant heal, and that if they are attacking a shotgunner who is sitting on the hive, they will die to the spam!
<i>Arcs</i> - Another great solution to the current crag spam problem, relativily easy to get tech, and situationaly very strong. but, also very weak if you are attacking a location that is easy to bile bomb from.
<i>Upgrades</i> - i favour W1 A1 W2. at this point you really have to be doing your first push if you intend to take down a hive before fades are out, if the res situation is going badly for you, the rush may be forced before W2 is started. after this i go W3, A2, A3.
<i>Jetpacks</i> - the best upgrade in the game, if you are going for a jetpack strategy against good fades, then dont waste any time after jetpacks have gone up. do a distress beacon to main base the moment they are up and instruct your team to rush a hive IMMEDIATLY. often you will see this in competitive matches, with the hive going down just seconds before the first fades come out, meaning that they are no blink fades vs jetpackers - much easier to kill.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) What to do if you find your team expansion is stagnating. (ie marines or skulks not venturing into new areas, while having less resource towers)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell them that they are playing too defensivly, give them waypoints to move out, tell them to slap some mines down on the res towers, and move out, scan and give everyone a waypoint to upgrade structures or an enemy rt, beacon and perform a rush on a hive.
e2a: there is a lot of strange misinformation in this thread. i know that this is a public forum, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I dont wanna quote people and start an argument, but please if you have played under 100 hours, this might not be the kind of thread you should be answering.
Im not saying im the dali lama of ns2 or owt, god knows ive got never ending practise and learning to put in, and anyone is welcome to disagree with any of the points i have made.
1) Your team is consistently losing battles over resource nodes. Could the commander do more to assist the team?
i) alien solutions
ii) marine solutions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i)-get on mic and tell your team to hit one location on the side of the map with the weakest defense
-suggest someone go lerk
-use a drifter
coms worry about res nodes too much, a lot of the time if you just attack marine start for example, youll do some major damage. ill trade a res node for the com chair anyday of the week
ii) same for for marine, prioritize
- get mines and hold choke pts
-try to hold as many rts as youre able to defend without stretching lines too thin. if the alien team is only hitting 1 area, send scouts elsewhere to get other res nodes up/kill enemy res nodes/ninja pg.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) What upgrades are most useful in general, and why you think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marine: a/w upgrades /jetpacks
alien: blink/carapace/celerity/silence/bile bomb
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) What to do if you find your team expansion is stagnating. (ie marines or skulks not venturing into new areas, while having less resource towers)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
try your best to get all your attackers to hit one pt at the same time. if they dont follow this instruction then just recycle/f4 because youve already lost.
Do it yourself.
If this ever happens, everyone is fighting at one point. Sorting aliens vs deposit marines in that hallway in between for example. We have all upgrades possible with 2 hives, we have crags and shift everywhere needed, why would I sit in a hive? I get out, run into repair, go gorge, bile power, boom - beaconed. Deposit is free for a while.
That other time it was Server room aliens vs elevator marines. Exactly the same situations - everyone is fighting in the hallway while other bases are empty. Skulking to shipping, getting to the balcony, going gorge, clogging up ladder, starting to bile - phase down, forced beacon.
For marines, I tend to prioritize armor upgrades over weapon upgrades. I only get shotguns when fades show up. PSA to marine commanders, you need to use MACs. You need to use MACs. You need to use MACs. No matter how much I say it, half of the PUG commanders pretend they don't exist, or just use them to build stuff in base and nothing else.
You can repeat this over and over again till they fold over.
Please continue to share viewpoints and opinions, strategies regarding the two sides, and cool situational strategies you've used, if you can remember!
I realize there's no cut-and-dry approach, but especially with the unpredictable nature, and skill levels of pub servers, it's a real challenge to evolve your command strategy to fit the team you're given.
As previously discussed, the upgrades you take and the mood you set in the Voice Chat deeply affect team behavior. Being charismatic enough to stay calm and in command, as well as allow your team not care so much about losing when it happens are both really important factors; the same with supporting them with appropriate upgrades or suggestions. We cannot emphasize this enough. So thanks for that, lumina. Command is definitely not for the short tempered.
But those with short fuses seem to me like the people best suited to lead 2-3 other troops into a hellish hive with nothing but flamethrowers and guts..and come out of it cackling like jackals in all-chat.. =]
I'd like to thank Hunter.S.T., VeNeM, xen32, piratedave and umphrey for their contributions, There are some situations in the past this advice would have been really useful already, haha.
Thanks again for adding more Tark, seigebreaking strategies are also really important for those late-game near-stalemates that just keep dragging on.