If commanding is your thing...
Amb
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168647Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168647Members, Reinforced - Supporter
<!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I spend 90% of my time in NS2 being a comm. This a remix of a thread I made earlier and it specifically addresses commanding related issues. Feel free to share your ideas but remember non of these are to change the balance of the game
edit: This is thread is about improving the QOL experience for NS2 commanders. Nobody wants to hear the "I wind windows with my hands so there's no need for cars to have power windows" sentiment. A dog in a manger is not welcomed in this thread.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->For Marine comms:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
* Show ARCs' firing range even when they are not deployed; also allow comm to direct ARCs to fire at specific targets
* add follow/patrol command for MACs
* allow marine comm to queue multiple ARC/MAC purchases, also allow comm to cancel a purchase in progress
* pre-drop all the power nodes for marines to build at the start of the round. Power nodes cost 0 res to drop and cannot be destroyed by Aliens, making the comm to double click to bulk drop power node is totally unnecessary and plain annoying.
* a more intuitive way to beacon: when you select an obs to beacon, it always ports the players to the nearest CC. So why not just let the comm click on a beacon-available CC on the minimap to beacon instead of keybinding individual obs?
* allow marine comm to cancel a beacon in case of an accidental click, the alarm should stop the second it's canceled, team can still be punished with no res refund
* paint a red patch on the minimap every time a marine structure is attacked, the same way when alien cyst is attacked. Also add a loud warning alarm when a structure in a "tech point room" is attacked, similar to the alien hive scream.
* allow marine comm to drop scan, med/ammo spam directly onto the minimap in the lower left corner
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro-->For Alien comms:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
* make drifter say "the enemy approaches" when hostiles are within its line of sight (same way the SC worked in NS1 v1.0)
* allow comm to direct hallucinations to do fake attacks on marines/structures
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro-->For both comms:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
* when comm selects a structure/unit with an assigned keybind, he should be able to hit that keybind again the 2nd time to instantly move the screen to its position.
* show players' names on the large minimap so the comm knows who's at where
* implement the <a href="http://media.moddb.com/images/articles/1/108/107716/auto/NS2_Insight_v10_800x526.jpg" target="_blank">spectator dashboard</a> to give the comms a better picture on the state of upgrades (who's sick of asking their team 'what upgrade did we lose?')
* a more intuitive way to ping the map: middle click pings a sword which symbolises attack, right click pings a shield which symbolises defend, get rid of those useless alien pings such as "heal here" and "mist there", no one uses that crap. Also make comm's ping a different colour to player's ping.
edit: This is thread is about improving the QOL experience for NS2 commanders. Nobody wants to hear the "I wind windows with my hands so there's no need for cars to have power windows" sentiment. A dog in a manger is not welcomed in this thread.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->For Marine comms:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
* Show ARCs' firing range even when they are not deployed; also allow comm to direct ARCs to fire at specific targets
* add follow/patrol command for MACs
* allow marine comm to queue multiple ARC/MAC purchases, also allow comm to cancel a purchase in progress
* pre-drop all the power nodes for marines to build at the start of the round. Power nodes cost 0 res to drop and cannot be destroyed by Aliens, making the comm to double click to bulk drop power node is totally unnecessary and plain annoying.
* a more intuitive way to beacon: when you select an obs to beacon, it always ports the players to the nearest CC. So why not just let the comm click on a beacon-available CC on the minimap to beacon instead of keybinding individual obs?
* allow marine comm to cancel a beacon in case of an accidental click, the alarm should stop the second it's canceled, team can still be punished with no res refund
* paint a red patch on the minimap every time a marine structure is attacked, the same way when alien cyst is attacked. Also add a loud warning alarm when a structure in a "tech point room" is attacked, similar to the alien hive scream.
* allow marine comm to drop scan, med/ammo spam directly onto the minimap in the lower left corner
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro-->For Alien comms:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
* make drifter say "the enemy approaches" when hostiles are within its line of sight (same way the SC worked in NS1 v1.0)
* allow comm to direct hallucinations to do fake attacks on marines/structures
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro-->For both comms:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
* when comm selects a structure/unit with an assigned keybind, he should be able to hit that keybind again the 2nd time to instantly move the screen to its position.
* show players' names on the large minimap so the comm knows who's at where
* implement the <a href="http://media.moddb.com/images/articles/1/108/107716/auto/NS2_Insight_v10_800x526.jpg" target="_blank">spectator dashboard</a> to give the comms a better picture on the state of upgrades (who's sick of asking their team 'what upgrade did we lose?')
* a more intuitive way to ping the map: middle click pings a sword which symbolises attack, right click pings a shield which symbolises defend, get rid of those useless alien pings such as "heal here" and "mist there", no one uses that crap. Also make comm's ping a different colour to player's ping.
Comments
2. There's no strong reason power nodes shouldn't be pre-placed everywhere. It's commander busywork at best, and a frustrating thing to request your commander place at worst. Unless they cost resources (and therefore become a decision with some weight behind it) they need to be pre-placed so marines can just build power anywhere.
3. Marines being able to scan is a fantastic idea -- so long as it's implemented in a balanced way. Maybe a month back I suggested a comm-unlockable scanner item which marines could buy and use 1 personal rez to scan. This would alleviate the situation where weaker commanders are absolutely terrible at scanning in a Camo-first situation. The scanner's limits and costs would ensure it was balanced and didn't completely ruin camo-first: (a) Costs team rez to research, (b) costs personal rez (10) to purchase, © costs personal rez (1) to use, (d) has a cooldown between uses which is timed such that a camo alien can run out of range once scanned, and after the scan wears off make it back to biting range of the marine before he can scan again, unless the marine retreats from the area, and possibly (e) the device's scan might be conal so that you have to face in the direction of an alien for the scan to de-cloak them.
Granted camo-first isn't really all that great anyway (I tend to prefer the other two hive types first) and a direct counter to it is a little awkward, even if it solves a pretty major gameplay flow problem.
this is a L2P issue, nothing to do with power nodes. The one you mentioned is probably the least of all the stupid sh!t I've seen them do.
This is correct, but if the commander wants an easy way to drop the ghost power nodes then they should have it. I agree with everything else in the OP.
<!--quoteo(post=2056591:date=Jan 5 2013, 03:01 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 5 2013, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that's not a legitimate reason..... Building unnecessary power nodes is the least of all the dumbest sh!t I've seen them do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is an absolutely legitimate reason. He said every power node. Not "power nodes next to RTs, or in tech points." There are plenty of power nodes that are essentially useless unless you're trying to get a forward offensive phase gate or what not. Pubbers stopping to build them en route to a more crucial area is very detrimental.
Of course that isn't the most stupid thing dumb NS2 players do.. but minimizing their potential failures is a positive thing to strive for.
That's fine, they can drop all the nodes if they want, just don't have the game drop them by default. A good example of a useless node is brew room on mineshaft. When have you EVER needed that node? An example of why auto built nodes can be bad, Drill Repair, if your marines are too slow and started in Observation, odds are some skulk will have that node dead before you get there, and it's a REAL pain to rebuild.
Pubbers do a lot of things that are detrimental to the team:
* 4 marine stays in spawn at the start of the round to build the armory, are you going to change the game so that only one marine is allowed to build at the start?
* one marine refuses to stick together with the group and gets owned by aliens, are you going to change the game so that marines are magnetically attached to each other when traveling?
* a base is being attacked and no one is phasing through, are you going change the game so that the players lose control of their avatar and are forced to phase through?
this is clearly a L2P issue, people need to learn which power node to build and when to build it, instead of saying "sorry I had a knee jerk reaction when I saw that power node"
Here's a case study for you:
Just yesterday I was commanding on ns2_docking. Once the power node was built in bar, I immediately dropped an armory, an obs and a phase gate for that idiot to build. Guess which one he builds first? that's right, the armory. Once that was done, he then started building the obs and got killed before he could finish it and we lost everything in bar soon after. I asked him why he didn't build the phase gate first, he replied "why the f**k did you drop three things for me to build then?'
Which by the way, you're the one who wanted to change the game by having the nodes pre-dropped. Not me.
I'm going to tell three of the four marines to get out of base.
I'm going to not support bad rambos and tell them so.
I'm going to beacon them in there, as a obs is always my build right after CC in a forward base.
And..... I'm not going to drop them unnecessary power nodes. Why would I? It's pointless with marginal benefits.
I'm going to not support bad rambos and tell them so.
I'm going to beacon them in there, as a obs is always my build right after CC in a forward base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and I'm going to tell them to not build the unnecessary nodes on the way. Oh look, it's that easy.
that's a whole different issue all together, we are now talking poor map design.
+1
many many times :) i like a brew room pg, and a brew room shift spawning point.
haha...
on large servers, i feel like if you can hold cart tunnel and brew room, you can hold one entire side of the map, and easily pressure the other side.
* allow marine comm to cancel a beacon in case of an accidental click, the alarm should stop the second it's canceled, team can still be punished with no res refund
* allow marine comm to queue multiple ARC/MAC purchases, also allow comm to cancel a purchase in progress
Right, there is that reason, but it's not a strong reason (or at least not strong enough) to warrant having a feature in the game which is essentially just busywork.
If the devs want to turn it into an interesting decision, that's fine. Attach a resource cost to placing power nodes or have them vulnerable to destruction once activated (instead of only being vulnerable once built to 100% the first time.)
But with the current implementation it's just a bunch of useless busywork that doesn't add to game depth, so should be removed or improved.
Even easier would be not having that communication hang up and dropping on the nodes that are necessary. Oh look, it's that easy.
Your other examples are an unavoidable part of the game, this is distinctly an avoidable part of the game. I'm not even sure why you're so insistently debating this.
You want a feature in that autodrops power nodes but as a trade off will result in time being wasted by less familiar players building power nodes that aren't needed. I wasn't aware clicking a couple power nodes was so burdensome. Oh wait, it's not... after I drop my first two RTs I take two seconds to drop all the important power nodes then forget about it. There isn't some intricate puzzle solving and critical thinking required to drop a node.
It's not the commander's job to babysit someone because he needs to L2P. This game doesn't have to be retard friendly.
<!--quoteo(post=2056654:date=Jan 6 2013, 09:58 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 6 2013, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not even sure why you're so insistently debating this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you replied in my thread, not the other way around. So I'm not sure why YOU are so insistently debating ME.
<!--quoteo(post=2056654:date=Jan 6 2013, 09:58 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 6 2013, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wasn't aware clicking a couple power nodes was so burdensome. Oh wait, it's not...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point is that it's a useless feature and it has no place to exist. It's like saying the game should prompt the player every time he decides to buy an exo/onos because you know, he might accidentally waste 75 res on the wrong thing.
<!--quoteo(post=2056656:date=Jan 5 2013, 05:13 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 5 2013, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you replied in my thread, not the other way around. So I'm not sure why YOU are so insistently debating ME.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I clarified what the other poster said. At this point, we've both been contributing.
<!--quoteo(post=2056656:date=Jan 5 2013, 05:13 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 5 2013, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the point is that it's a useless feature and it has no place to exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That can be argued of the power mechanic in general. That being said, an auto drop of the power nodes is an equally useless feature for the devs to bother with as commanders can do it with little inconvenience.
As a game designer I see a big difference between those things. My design sense omes indirectly from Sid Meier (Meier > Reynolds > Me) who's rather famous at a focus on "interesting decisions" in his games, which is the root of fun and interesting strategy gameplay.
Power itself as a system creates <i>some</i> interesting decisions. Robo'ing to protect the node, putting your phasegate near the node, determining your attack priorities as kharaa.
But placing power nodes is pure busywork, and creates <i>no</i> interesting decisions. It's just a bunch of required clicks you have to make which cost you nothing but a bit of time.
The choice is clear: turn power node placement into an interesting decision (add a significant cost,) or remove the requirement to pre-place them. The cost doesn't have to be a literal team resource cost -- it could be as simple as "Placing a node makes it immediately vulnerable to complete destruction". It's this weird system of free nodes which are invulnerable until they're fully build but require commander busywork that doesn't make sense.
also, please stop immediantly burning people at the stake for responding with a different opinion in your thread, it is very annoying to see
1. I honestly think the way they have ARC range displayed is fine. This is personal, but I've remembered the AOE of the Obs and ARC. If you can see the range before they are deployed, it makes it really cheap in my opinion. Even in SC2 you don't see the Siege Tanks Range before they siege.
2. I agree, A follow button would be great.
3. YES! This would come in handy espically when you need to heavily mico ammo/health drops.
4. I do not agree with this. 1) Even if it is pointless, and costs 0 res. Parts of the game makes the player 'want' to build it. 2) A vocal indicator tells your player to build the node, even if you didn't drop it, so they think you wanted it build even without you literally telling them to. (A point was made, that is cuts out of the busy work for the commander. Which can help, but agian that busy work take so little time, in itself, doesn't even matter at the bigger picture)
5. A relocation of the beacon can be useful.
6. I agree completely for canceled beacons. I've made beacon calls, then once the aliens hear it they all run off and make it useless (smart jerks). Keep the 10 res, it was good to scare them anyways.
7. There already is a loud warning, some lady yells "Comm station being attacked!". But having a better visual indicator for your marines to know something is going on, on the map, would be a good improvement.
8. Ammo/Medpacks, no. Scans, yes.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->--Alien Comm--<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
1. No, that would get very annoying very fast.
2. I agree with this. But I would also want to see Scans being able to distinguish fakes and reals. (basically a scan will detect a fake, but an obs alone will not)
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->--Over all--<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
1. Agree completely, would make zooming focus around the map much faster.
2. No. If you can't keep up with what you have currently researching, and have no idea where to go next, you need better awareness. Its not like you do a whole lot to begin with.
3. I agree. This can also help with comms who do not have working microphones to better communicate what they want their Team to do. Rather than relying on someone in the FPS mode directing everyone.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->--My suggestions--<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Camera Panning: Like in a majority of RTS' you can pan the camera by hitting the edge of the screen with your mouse.
There could be 2 fixes here:
1. Have a pan sensitivity to allow players to customize how fast they want the pan to scroll.
2. Have the middle mouse button preform a sort of "free-pan mode". Locks the cursor, and has a free X-Y movement of the camera. For me personally this is how i typically navigate top down styled games.
A note to OP:
You say 90% of your time is played as a commander, but a lot of your suggestions just sound like you have bad macro-magement. Like Knowing what upgrades you have, and Just a general sense of what to do/where to go. I do mostly agree having a better control on moving around the map.
The whole "Give commanders the roughly same spectator UI" really made me laugh. Commanders don't need all that extra fluff. You can easily remember that you have X upgrades an Y weapon going. This is, after all, my own personal opinion.
You say 90% of your time is played as a commander, but a lot of your suggestions just sound like you have bad macro-magement. Like Knowing what upgrades you have, and Just a general sense of what to do/where to go. I do mostly agree having a better control on moving around the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you suggesting that RTS games like Starcraft II are made for players who have bad macromanagement? Because all my suggestions are fairly standard in the RTS genre, today.
<!--quoteo(post=2056781:date=Jan 6 2013, 04:33 PM:name=zenatsu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zenatsu @ Jan 6 2013, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole "Give commanders the roughly same spectator UI" really made me laugh. Commanders don't need all that extra fluff. You can easily remember that you have X upgrades an Y weapon going. This is, after all, my own personal opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The aliens upgrade chambers gets taken out all the time and there's no effective for the comm to tell what's missing and what chamb needs replacing. This is the reason why alien comms often have to ask his team "guys, which upgrade did we lose? Press B and see which upgrades have turned red." This happens 100% of the time in every dam game so for you to find this laughable just shows you have next to no commanding experience. Please don't waste our time.
edit: btw you should use the [quote] tags more often, it might help with macromanagement.
yes, it's extremely annoying! Sometimes alien comms deliberately scatter chambers in separate hives to avoid a complete wipe out. The only way to know what's been taken out is to either bother your team mates, ask them to press B to see which one has gone red or to pan around the hives and click on each chambers one by one to see what's left. Such a design flaw can be easily fixed by simply give the comm the spectator dashboard.
that was exactly my point! Thank you.
No, I am not suggesting that. In fact SC2 is micro and macro intensive in the RTS genre. NS2 is not aiming their commanders to be SC2 pro's and I understand that. As a commander, personally, I can keep up with my upgrades pretty easily. But you and I are different players.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The aliens upgrade chambers gets taken out all the time and there's no effective for the comm to tell what's missing and what chamb needs replacing. This is the reason why alien comms often have to ask his team "guys, which upgrade did we lose? Press B and see which upgrades have turned red." This happens 100% of the time in every dam game so for you to find this laughable just shows you have next to no commanding experience. Please don't waste our time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have very seldom asked my team what is missing. I also admit I've been told "Hey we're missing a morph" (typically after intensive fights). I can see where this CAN be beneficial, but Comms don't need a rehash of the spectator UI. If anything the Aliens need a better way to identify what building is missing. Like the veils since they are very small and hide inside the infestation easily.
Again, You and I are different players. I am in no way trying to be offensive, this is just my own observation and opinion from what you have suggested.
No to beacon cancellation, you have to make your decision. I find it more fun that way.
Ok to have an information as alien comm as wich upgrades are up (having the icon over the upgrade chamber on the commander view and minimap would help both to locate it and know what is up there)
Ok to have a follow order for MACs but lets make it and upgrade, not a gift, since it's a real asset and upgrade to MAC's AI.
I'd like to say that it is very easy to imagine things that are an improvement for commander (ergonomy, information, automation).
But some are not necesserally an improvement gameplaywise, keep in mind that this it is an RTS/FTS, not a RTS.
I agree with arc/mac queueing, it feels like a redundant SC1 feature of not being able to queue multiple buildings, compounded by the fact that when arcs finish building it takes another 4-5 seconds of the ######ing thing rolling out the doorway, doorway closing and arc trundling out before you can rebuild again, ######ing immersion, it'd kill me to have the thing appear magically outside the ARC factory and simply queue another one straight away.
No follow command on macs is horrible as well, on top of the fact jetpack marines leading the macs 50m in the opposite direction of exos so they can get ammo while macs chase them in mid air to weld, it's not micro so as much as feel like you're babysitting stupid game mechanics, micro would be running one mac into a hive, setting off it's electro field and running it back, not assigning 3-5 macs to one control group and constantly updating it's position every 5 seconds so the exos don't get ######ed.
Canceling beacons seems like a balance change and not a QoL change to me, I haven't accidentally beaconed once in 50-100 games in pub.
Alien upgrades are obtuse as well, % build times on comm screen instead of a stupid build bar and having the spectator upgrade icons would help 95% of comms and be of no detriment to the other 5%. The fact that getting out the hive and pressing B will let you know what upgrades you have within half a second as opposed to being the hive ######ing mind and having no indications of what is up is annoying at best.