I find Drifter a bit op
MisterYoon
Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155747Members
Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155747Members
<div class="IPBDescription">as a strategy game</div>
Drifter may seem not that important or not that useful enough if you think ns2 is just a fps game.
But it's actually not. And i find it really unacceptable to have such a cheap scouter for this kind of game. It's almost like map hack. Marines cannot do something but just stick together and shoot. No ninja anymore, no distraction by sneaking into alien base or killing their rts.
This has become so obvious that drifters are just stragetically overpowered as i watched some competitive matches. Aliens could just know what's going on through the entire map just with 10-15 res. They are even invisible, and invincible unless marines shoot. No more touch revealing their appreance.
I hope you don't metion 'not that good enough' public matches for reply on this topic.
Drifter may seem not that important or not that useful enough if you think ns2 is just a fps game.
But it's actually not. And i find it really unacceptable to have such a cheap scouter for this kind of game. It's almost like map hack. Marines cannot do something but just stick together and shoot. No ninja anymore, no distraction by sneaking into alien base or killing their rts.
This has become so obvious that drifters are just stragetically overpowered as i watched some competitive matches. Aliens could just know what's going on through the entire map just with 10-15 res. They are even invisible, and invincible unless marines shoot. No more touch revealing their appreance.
I hope you don't metion 'not that good enough' public matches for reply on this topic.
Comments
Marines get macs, which are great. They also get scan which is arguably better for offensive pushes than the drifters.
Aliens do get better map monitoring though using drifters. With a good commander, nothing really surprises you. Used to be worse in beta though. Aliens had marines visible any time they touched infestation.
Starcraft :
firstly, what important is that all 3 types of team can have their good scout units.
Observer of Protoss - it needs really lots of upgrades to get it.
Overlord of Zerg - really really really slow
Some structures(scan, turret), units(vessel etc) of Marine - need some/lots of upgrades and pretty limited on several aspect, cost a lot.
Company of Heroes :
what important is that Company Of Heroes has really limited amount of observing/scout units. Almost nothing, or cost hell a lot.
* Wehrmacht (German forces) and also American
- Bicycle/Jeep : fast but really weak. Never invisible
- Sniper : Invisible, but if get killed, you'll would just directly lose the entire match. And cost a lot
- Any other observing skills : cost really really much
* Panzer Elite (another type of German forces)
- they have plenty of observing posibilities and units, compare to others. But that's all they can do. They suppose to observe and then guerilla or hide and attack at once with really strong unit.
* British Forces
- they suppose to have no observing units. They can have only around their bases. Even units are completely slow till the high tier. Asymmetrical from Panzer Elite.
in compare to those two most popular/probably best RTS game, alien's drifter seems to me really unacceptable.
I completely really think it ruins strategic gameplay of ns2.
It's invisible, cheap, fast. If there was a single unit which is like that in those two games, people would just sing 'op'.
To summurize, as you see, no single unit on those two best example of good rts game has such a scout unit(except that panzer elite of coh, which suppose to observe, hide throughout entire the match), which is fast, cheap, invisible. But drifter does.
Of course, natural selection 2 is a different game, but it's still maybe half-strategic game and i say again, i really think drifter should be handled somehow. Not like now.
Scans and drifters are two of the same, the difference is scanning negates an entire tech tree for aliens, That tree being Shade. I think drifters are fine, they are easily countered with a simple scan, and require extra work of the commander to keep track of them and move them around the map. Scanning as well needs to stay in the game. I think we can all agree it needs some changes still, but it is something you couldn't imagine playing without, could you?
You don't get difference between constant scout units and temporary skill.
Give me a single example of a scout unit/skill of any other great rts game, which is mobile(even fast), and not temporary, and even cheap.
Sniper of company of heroes which is invisible and constant(but slow) cost 300~360 manpower(resource) and initially a team get only 250 manpower each minutes. Of course sniper is really powerful unit against enemies. But to get that, a player need to wait at least one and half minute. But Drifter, which can let you see through whole map like maphack? If you have just 2-3 harvesters, less than 20 secs to get. Do you get difference?
<!--quoteo(post=2057102:date=Jan 6 2013, 05:00 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jan 6 2013, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens do get better map monitoring though using drifters. With a good commander, nothing really surprises you. Used to be worse in beta though. Aliens had marines visible any time they touched infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. That example just showed how UWE wrong was. (but i love you UWE team :3) And i think to have drifter so cheap and so mobile and so constant seems also wrong.
Scans and drifters are two of the same, the difference is scanning negates an entire tech tree for aliens, That tree being Shade. I think drifters are fine, they are easily countered with a simple scan, and require extra work of the commander to keep track of them and move them around the map. Scanning as well needs to stay in the game. I think we can all agree it needs some changes still, but it is something you couldn't imagine playing without, could you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course not without. I love their decision to make drifter a scout unit. I am just telling you about some overpowered aspect his invisibility, and safety from being revealed. And also cost. I wrote some good examples of observing units of some best rts games of period. I hope you could get the point.
Lastly, i would give you a single gameplay example. If marine is a bit losing game, running out of resources somehow, they are going to go across 'empty' places and put ninja phase in their base, to come back from losing match, then would commander scan every empty room which marines are gonna go across? Wouldn't it cost a lot to scan at every each empty big rooms toward to their base, just in order to find a cute drifter? And, even if they succeed to find it, their strategy will be anyway revealed as a drifter could already see a marine or a group of marine heading to their base, or by death of the drifter.
Man, scouting on rts game is actually most important. Actually most game let player just assume, rather than see directly through a place/or whole map. Therefore, scouting, observing units are expensive, or slow, or weak, or only available after ca 15 minutes for example. I've seen no single scout unit of any other good rts games which has so fast, cheap, scout unit like drifter. I just want if they handle it a bit.
And marine scan is good. Because it's temporary. And already proved on some famous rts games like Starcraft.
Though that might feel a bit too limiting in the long. Personally, I feel like Drifters are fine the way they currently are.
I like scanning the Drifters.
Unless I missed it somewhere but everyone uses their workers to scout in sc2 which are cheap
Sorry i forgot to mention this : invisible :( forgive me
Also true. Probably just because i like that kind limitation on strategy games. Of couse, as ns2 is hybrid, it's good that UWE are unlimiting something and make it easier for everyone to command(still marine commander is at least as hard as other famous rts games). But i think it's way too unlimited to have such Drifter.
<!--quoteo(post=2057097:date=Jan 6 2013, 04:44 PM:name=MisterYoon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterYoon @ Jan 6 2013, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope you don't metion 'not that good enough' public matches for reply on this topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's good opinion. Cos' good commander doesn't make such a mistake. And it's even actually very basic of every rts game to assume/scout enemies and i am just telling you that it's way too easy and cheap to do that as khammander.
Glad I sold that game 2nd hand after one SP playthrough then. Sounds terrible.
Glad I sold that game 2nd hand after one SP playthrough then. Sounds terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OT, he is wrong about CoH. Really wrong. A shame you didn't stick around to play MP.
On topic... Drifters are too good at scouting imo. Basically they amount to a permanent, invisible scan. LOS if plenty in many cases, and possibly further than scan with good positioning. I get the asymetry aspects of NS2, but I still think the drifter can be changed in a useful and fitting way. Basically, drifters should get perks based on the hives the aliens have up.
If the aliens have:
Crag: tougher drifters, maybe slow HP regen.
Shift: drifter gets the enzyme ability.
Shade: drifter gets passive invisibility.
On topic... Drifters are too good at scouting imo. Basically they amount to a permanent, invisible scan. LOS if plenty in many cases, and possibly further than scan with good positioning. I get the asymetry aspects of NS2, but I still think the drifter can be changed in a useful and fitting way. Basically, drifters should get perks based on the hives the aliens have up.
If the aliens have:
Crag: tougher drifters, maybe slow HP regen.
Shift: drifter gets the enzyme ability.
Shade: drifter gets passive invisibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in the early game, when they're most useful, they're useless, nice.
Might as well just unbind mouse 1 for aliens....its too OP'd.
Sheesk drifters are nothing compared to Obs.
I tried it and it seems to work best if your going all extractors open, 2 drifters are 6 cysts, usually I put a cyst or two forward or each outlying resnode to catch newbie marines, but 2 drifters can do alot more than 6 immature cysts I now realise.
Sheesk drifters are nothing compared to Obs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy gets it
Hit F4, go into spectate mode, identify where the drifters are, go back to marine team and take them out.
Hit F4, go into spectate mode, identify where the drifters are, go back to marine team and take them out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is nearly everything else.
Drifters are too powerful for their cost, design, and risk. +1 op.
Scans are not permanent, nor can you use them at every room/corridor.
Now that they remain invisible even to touch (I didn't know that I thought they were still touchable) and they have an aoe 25% attack speed buff they can spam endlessly they're worth quite a bit more than 3 res in the right hands. I feel they will never make the bad players good but they can make good players great.
Curious as to why the obs energy system was done away with, I mean if marines were teching too fast there's an easy answer to that one, was it fixing something that wasn't broken or intended to make marine comming easier not worrying about which obs has what energy?
I'm sorry, what?