Lets talk: Resources
TehSlenderMan
Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177361Members
Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177361Members
My opinion on resources is that, for the players, it needs to be separate instead of we all just generate resources. It's just annoying running around slowing waiting for the resources to generate just so I can get what I want, along with that, shotguns and whatnot are pricey as can be, I get one of those, and I have slimmer chances of grabbing an Exo and actually supporting the team.
Same goes when playing as alien, I love going Lerk and Fade, but if I grab a Fade, the game will probably end by the time I get my resources back for Lerk (they generally do for me)
I propose a way for resources to not just be generated but actually earned, maybe with kills you earn resources, or perhaps a separate building type option that the player can build somewhere to speed up his/her resource generation.
Maybe one thought is, when the player destroys a harvester/extractor, it releases some resources. That way, the player gets more resources, while also supporting his team, giving him a reason to do it more. It's not even funny how many players I see just running past harvesters/extractors and saying "Oh no dude that's pointless"
If I think of anything else i'll post it up. But all I propose is a faster way for resource generation, maybe if the only way to do it makes it too easy to purchase things, then increase the price of said things to balance it all out.
Same goes when playing as alien, I love going Lerk and Fade, but if I grab a Fade, the game will probably end by the time I get my resources back for Lerk (they generally do for me)
I propose a way for resources to not just be generated but actually earned, maybe with kills you earn resources, or perhaps a separate building type option that the player can build somewhere to speed up his/her resource generation.
Maybe one thought is, when the player destroys a harvester/extractor, it releases some resources. That way, the player gets more resources, while also supporting his team, giving him a reason to do it more. It's not even funny how many players I see just running past harvesters/extractors and saying "Oh no dude that's pointless"
If I think of anything else i'll post it up. But all I propose is a faster way for resource generation, maybe if the only way to do it makes it too easy to purchase things, then increase the price of said things to balance it all out.
Comments
Same goes when playing as alien, I love going Lerk and Fade, but if I grab a Fade, the game will probably end by the time I get my resources back for Lerk (they generally do for me)
I propose a way for resources to not just be generated but actually earned, maybe with kills you earn resources, or perhaps a separate building type option that the player can build somewhere to speed up his/her resource generation.
Maybe one thought is, when the player destroys a harvester/extractor, it releases some resources. That way, the player gets more resources, while also supporting his team, giving him a reason to do it more. It's not even funny how many players I see just running past harvesters/extractors and saying "Oh no dude that's pointless"
If I think of anything else i'll post it up. But all I propose is a faster way for resource generation, maybe if the only way to do it makes it too easy to purchase things, then increase the price of said things to balance it all out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah sure, let's have a 4 minute Onos instead of a 12 minute one.
Same goes when playing as alien, I love going Lerk and Fade, but if I grab a Fade, the game will probably end by the time I get my resources back for Lerk (they generally do for me)
I propose a way for resources to not just be generated but actually earned, maybe with kills you earn resources, or perhaps a separate building type option that the player can build somewhere to speed up his/her resource generation.
Maybe one thought is, when the player destroys a harvester/extractor, it releases some resources. That way, the player gets more resources, while also supporting his team, giving him a reason to do it more. It's not even funny how many players I see just running past harvesters/extractors and saying "Oh no dude that's pointless"
If I think of anything else i'll post it up. But all I propose is a faster way for resource generation, maybe if the only way to do it makes it too easy to purchase things, then increase the price of said things to balance it all out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Res for Kills discourages aggressive play, more so on the alien side because the skulks are rather expendable, but on the marine side as well. It makes the dominant player more dominant and the weaker players weaker.
Additionally, if you add RvK and then up the cost of things, what have you gained?
Additionally, if you add RvK and then up the cost of things, what have you gained?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I mean, if the only way to do this makes it too easy to earn items, then I suppose balance is necessary to up the cost, not too severely, but not to little. All I really want, is a way for resources to come by judging by how the player plays, instead of automatically given to you over time. The ideas I provided are just things I posted off the top of my head just for a tiny view of what I propose.
If you play well your team can cap more resource points and you can get more resources...
Res gain for killing an enemy resource tower could be interesting, but then again they are already very very important.
Res from kills was an NS1 mechanic, and I can definitely say from extensive first hand experience that it doesn't take long for a good skulk to turn into an invincible fade that completely shuts down the marines, or for a good marine to get so much RFK that the marine comm is spoiled for choice between JP HMGs, or a near unstoppable HA train. A great example of how...broken...this mechanic was is to look at an NS1 game where the marines retreat to a hive location that they had previously fortified. All marines have to do is kill wave after wave of aliens, and marines will eventually have an entire team full of HAs equipped with welders and HMGs - all on one res node and one hive location. These were the epic hours-long games (I've been in 3hr games) that almost always end in marine victory.
NS2 is ultimately a war for resources and territory. To maximize your resource generation, you should be helping the comm to get those resource nodes capped <b>and defended</b>. The more res your comm has, the easier it'll be for your team to gain an edge over the opposing team, which translates into less deaths and more resources for yourself. Also, the less res the other team has, the harder it is for them to kill you because your team is winning the arms race.
The game already rewards those who are good at both combat and at 'playing properly', it just doesn't give you the resources directly for every kill you make. The team with the better players (including the commander) is more likely to win because they're able to take and hold more territory and resources, and shut down the other teams' attempts to take those away from them.
If your teams doing well for res commanders will probably start dropping lifeforms/weapons from team res. And at least on marines I've sometimes bought a shotgun for another player because they've demonstrated how good they are with it.
The only thing I'll buy with team res are welders, I almost never buy anything else even at endgame when we're dominating and we have far more res nodes capped than the Aliens. Maybe jetpacks since they're so useful and relatively cheap.
TRes and PRes can buy weaponry and equipment (mines, welders) but only TRes can be spent on arms lab upgrades, protolab research, structures, and especially MACs and ARCs. If your team is fully upgraded with everything, then just build ARCs for a final ARC push and/or drop some jetpacks in base.
Marines: steady res flow, alive or dead, slightly faster than alien generation
Aliens: No res while dead, .5 res per kill, .25 res for assist + RT generation while alive
** .5 RFK would not make a serious impact as an alien would need 60 kills to earn a lerk. It would simply allieviate the "lifeform explosion" with minimal snowball effects that RFK usually brings.
Steady res income from marines would allow marines to buy guns at a steady pace and still afford an exo (maybe not a dual, but making the 1 gun exo worth it is another issue entirely)
a small ammount of RFK would allow playing the higher lifeforms to be more rewarding by essentially speeding up Pres gain (anything greater than a lerk should be able to take a singe marine easy) and be less devastating when lost, also easily allowing a play to become a higher lifeform (eliminates the 'well, i bought a lerk, looks like im not going onos' feeling)
TRes and PRes can buy weaponry and equipment (mines, welders) but only TRes can be spent on arms lab upgrades, protolab research, structures, and especially MACs and ARCs. If your team is fully upgraded with everything, then just build ARCs for a final ARC push and/or drop some jetpacks in base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much agree, but if I have a player who has shown they're good I'm much more likely to drop them a weapon if they ask.
Marines: steady res flow, alive or dead, slightly faster than alien generation
Aliens: No res while dead, .5 res per kill, .25 res for assist + RT generation while alive
** .5 RFK would not make a serious impact as an alien would need 60 kills to earn a lerk. It would simply allieviate the "lifeform explosion" with minimal snowball effects that RFK usually brings.
Steady res income from marines would allow marines to buy guns at a steady pace and still afford an exo (maybe not a dual, but making the 1 gun exo worth it is another issue entirely)
a small ammount of RFK would allow playing the higher lifeforms to be more rewarding by essentially speeding up Pres gain (anything greater than a lerk should be able to take a singe marine easy) and be less devastating when lost, also easily allowing a play to become a higher lifeform (eliminates the 'well, i bought a lerk, looks like im not going onos' feeling)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the type of comment I was hoping to see, one that adds on to the idea. This is a excellent idea and one i'd be fine with, as I said, all I mainly ask for, is a way where resource generation is affected by how a player performs.
Yes the P.Res. ticks are slow, and they are supposed to be.
If players manage to take a player out who is better armed than the default equipment and thus should have an advantage against them unless they tech up as well, they get rewarded with robbing that player of his advantage again and making him take longer than other players until he can go for it again.
The resource system is in a perfect spot right now.
For isntance, a slightly faster and constant Pres generation rate for marines would allow them to purchase guns and welders and jps (The Full Loadout) more frequently (perhaps 15% more Pres than now) and still allow a player to afford an exo with a bit of conservation early on, but not simply res hoarding.
For aliens, the minor RFK would allow aliens to accelerate their Pres gathering to afford a bigger lifeform, and also make dying as this lifeform less devestating since it can be used to shorten the time between lifeforms (ofc dying immediately will still be a big loss). Not gathering Pres when dead would help to offset this so that we can avoid any 5 min Onos issues, and attempt to prevent constant zergging and suiciding skulks to gain more res. Maybe even give .25 pres per assist to encourage team play and prevent rage from kill steals (its a team game after all)
Again, .5 res per kill would hardly do much to upset balance (getting a free fade from RFK would mean 100 kills, which is unlikely), but would at least encourage smart play when combined with no res while dead
I also feel like this model works well with the playstyles of each side.
Marines: all about disposable soldiers and recyclable technology (designed to sustain loss)
Aliens: all about keeping the precious evolutions alive and growing (designed to stay alive and survive)
I feel like this is where the wheels fall off of this concept.
I don't dislike RFK, but you've got to be insane stating that 0.5 res for a kill would not significantly impact a game. Consider the typical pub.
12v12.
Start as skulk. 20 res. Get 10-20 kills within the first few minutes? Enjoy your 2.5-3.5 minute fade.
Surely you can't legitimately expect anyone to take "To earn 50 pres you'd need 100 kills" as a validation? You clearly are going to have more res than that (Much more), and in the case of public games, you're looking at a HUGE snowball factor due to RFK. If that's the direction people want ,I'm all for it because it would largely benefit me... but you've got to stop and wonder if that's fair.
Not disagreeing with your idea, but I think you come off pretty preposterous claiming that 0.5 RFK is somehow not a huge factor. In a game where people rack up ratios in pubs consistently like 10:1 20:1 or even higher, they'd be HUUUUUGE. Not to mention that decent players would be unstoppable due to the fact that you'd buy a fade for 50res, and then getting that res back would be a snap of ease since you have nothing but flow of native res, a hugely resilient lifeform to reap it with, and then can re-buy it with almost no loss if you manage to survive and do your job at all.
I think it needs some more legitimate consideration than a dismissive "It wouldn't change much." It would change *everything*.
Start as skulk. 20 res. Get 10-20 kills within the first few minutes? Enjoy your 2.5-3.5 minute fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you on about lol? 2.5-3.5 minute fade?
Skulks normally reach 50 tres at 10 minutes. That means 40 tres (+10 from 20 kills) at 8 minutes.
To get a fade at 2.5-3.5 you'd need to have made 40 kills or so in 2.5-3.5 minutes. You can't even spawn 40 marines in that ammount of time on 1 ip if it was respawning constantly.
With that 5 minutes, you'll have +15pres as the skulk (As per your numbers, Elodea, which is based on what # of RT control, etc?)
So in 5 minutes you'll have 25+25 pres, 45. Score a few more than 20 kills in 5 minutes (Which is excessively doable on a pub full of pubs), and you're looking at an easy early fade. My under-shooting the time a little is valid.
That said, it's still incredible and game-breaking to be able to potentially double your native res income... especially when higher lifeform = more rfk= more lifeforms = more rfk.... This scheme just benefits pubstompers and people who already crush the pub scene hard.
How can you not see that?
Or do you just think that's how it should be? (Which is a valid opinion. Just not neccesarily mine).
Combat, that...thing, was a good example of how horridly fast you could see high lifeforms & upgrades on a pure RFK system.
Classic showed a mixed version which did have unfortunate downsides, like the turtling marines.
* It does not per se, promote good play. Many ppl will screw ambushes to try to rush kills, as waiting takes time. (not that standing still all the match is good).
* Some will not leave base/hive for fear of feeding the enemy team res, as these players know they (still) suck.
* Automated weapons would become more viable, drawing out matches to a point where both sides wanted a end half a hour ago.
* marines GL and flame have a nice area of effect, making rushing that pretty mandatory to feed up on skulk kills.
Im sure we can keep filling the list with reasons.
The only downside to the current system is 'slow' which basicly means the teams are very well balanced and killing each others rts a lot, are stacked and it will be over soon, or both sides are crap enought noone would realise.