Skulk Animation Issues
halfofaheaven
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
A video says more than a thousand words:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKchkcZdo9Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKchkcZdo9Y</a>
This clip was submitted to UWE today, who as I understood it responded with saying they're "aware of the issue", but are "focusing on new features for the time being".
It's really no wonder aliens are dominating right now, when nobody can hit skulks properly due to, among other things, hitreg, performance, input lag and animation smoothing issues. In any given case, it takes the average player about double the amount of bullets to kill a skulk than it should.
New content is great and all, but can we let the devs know what exactly they should be prioritising please? Fix severe technical issues first, bugs second, and add new content last. No other order is acceptable.
<ul><b>Disclaimer:</b>
If you think skulks don't actually move like this because you've never seen or rather noticed it this bad in-game (which <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc" target="_blank">was the case for me</a> when a playtester <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqIuEd2buYo" target="_blank">showed me a video</a> to illustrate the issue), I challenge you to have someone walljump around for you while you record it and judge for yourself. Feel free to post your results as well.
My video was recorded with Fraps at 60 FPS, on a stable 30 tick server with a constant ping of around 25. In other words, there is absolutely no issue on my end and it's captured exactly like it looks in-game at 100+ FPS.</li></ul>
Other examples:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNucpXT03x0" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNucpXT03x0</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgZgfd6glBk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgZgfd6glBk</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgZgfd6glBk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgZgfd6glBk</a>
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/aqs9x73" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/aqs9x73</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKchkcZdo9Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKchkcZdo9Y</a>
This clip was submitted to UWE today, who as I understood it responded with saying they're "aware of the issue", but are "focusing on new features for the time being".
It's really no wonder aliens are dominating right now, when nobody can hit skulks properly due to, among other things, hitreg, performance, input lag and animation smoothing issues. In any given case, it takes the average player about double the amount of bullets to kill a skulk than it should.
New content is great and all, but can we let the devs know what exactly they should be prioritising please? Fix severe technical issues first, bugs second, and add new content last. No other order is acceptable.
<ul><b>Disclaimer:</b>
If you think skulks don't actually move like this because you've never seen or rather noticed it this bad in-game (which <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc" target="_blank">was the case for me</a> when a playtester <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqIuEd2buYo" target="_blank">showed me a video</a> to illustrate the issue), I challenge you to have someone walljump around for you while you record it and judge for yourself. Feel free to post your results as well.
My video was recorded with Fraps at 60 FPS, on a stable 30 tick server with a constant ping of around 25. In other words, there is absolutely no issue on my end and it's captured exactly like it looks in-game at 100+ FPS.</li></ul>
Other examples:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNucpXT03x0" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNucpXT03x0</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgZgfd6glBk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgZgfd6glBk</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgZgfd6glBk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgZgfd6glBk</a>
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/aqs9x73" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/aqs9x73</a>
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Anyways, I can say that you are wrong. This is not some game breaking issue. I shoot skulks who are jumping around me all the time. I get dominated by good shooters no matter how fast I am going or how much I jump around them. To claim that your issue makes it impossible to shoot skulks is wrong. It will only hurt your argument. The developers will test your issue. If they successfully shoot skulks, then what?
There is a known hitreg problem, but it seems to be a pretty small problem that is way overblown. They do have a thread where they asked for people to show the problem with video.
I guess I kind of see the point there, but I really don't have any issues knowing where to shoot.
this is one of the biggest annoyances with NS2, don't try to show off by claiming it's not an issue. you aren't impressing anyone
Anyways, I can say that you are wrong. This is not some game breaking issue. I shoot skulks who are jumping around me all the time. I get dominated by good shooters no matter how fast I am going or how much I jump around them. To claim that your issue makes it impossible to shoot skulks is wrong. It will only hurt your argument. The developers will test your issue. If they successfully shoot skulks, then what?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't watch the videos, but you're saying I'm "wrong"? The videos are about ridiculously twitchy skulk animations that sometimes literally make the skulk teleport a few inches. I know for a fact some people are playing the game less or not at all because it's next to impossible for them to have a proper FPS experience. And I'm talking about former top level NS1 players. The developers have acknowledged this as an issue, it's just that they're pretty much ignoring it and have been doing so for ages.
Sony Vegas default for slow motion I guess. The issue is perfectly visible with the untouched 100% speed clips as well though.
However, it would also help us to have videos that have not been edited. This one for example, has sections where it has had frames cut out, making the skulk appear to warp into a completely different position (you can tell by the marine view model thumb popping).
--Cory
Oh I wasn't ignoring the fact, its just that I... I HATE frameblending on digital media :P
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whoa busted... i rewatched the video after you mentioned it and there does seem to either have been frames cut from the video or the computer that was recording was skipping frames.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought that was an obvious edit, but I guess not. I'm happy to redo the video and provide whatever is needed to make it easier for you.
The only cuts are whenever I say "now jump between the two walls below" or something to that effect, which is fairly obvious as the skulk is somewhere COMPLETELY elsewhere.
The only noticeable warping under 25% and 5% play speed is the time when a few frames got cut. I am not saying there is no issues with skulk animation (hell, with animation in general, Khaara especially), but why would you intentionally choose the frames that were cut to play at ultra low speed?
Nevertheless, no problems with skulk movement on my end. I only have problems aiming when the skulk gets smart and starts dancing around the edge of my periphery.
<!--quoteo(post=2058066:date=Jan 8 2013, 06:21 PM:name=yuckfoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yuckfoo @ Jan 8 2013, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Life doesnt always happen anti-aliased with all animations jerk free. I do not see how this would make it harder for you to hit a skulk. I would think the little ######s running full speed would make them harder to hit. Looks completely playable to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2058166:date=Jan 8 2013, 10:42 PM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 8 2013, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other than the frames you deliberately cut out to make it appear the skulk was warping, I saw no problems with the skulk animation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wtf? Did you guys even watch his video? Here's a second link to an obvious problem:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=1m33s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=1m33s</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s</a>
Now understand that in fast paced combat, if the models are jittery or warpy then they become much harder to hit. I can't believe people can't make the connection between how poor animations can cause difficulty tracking. Even the animations that aren't warping are still ambiguous as to which direction the skulk is moving (and sometimes facing!). That isn't good.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=1m33s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=1m33s</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s</a>
Now understand that in fast paced combat, if the models are jittery or warpy then they become much harder to hit. I can't believe people can't make the connection between how poor animations can cause difficulty tracking. Even the animations that aren't warping are still ambiguous as to which direction the skulk is moving (and sometimes facing!). That isn't good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ive watched the videos and I still adhere to my previous statement. It isnt THAT big of a deal. If you're seeing 2 skulks in the place of one then yes, I can see that might make it more difficult. I still dont see the above videos presenting a severely detrimental problem to the game. Sorry.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=1m33s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=1m33s</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s</a>
Now understand that in fast paced combat, if the models are jittery or warpy then they become much harder to hit. I can't believe people can't make the connection between how poor animations can cause difficulty tracking. Even the animations that aren't warping are still ambiguous as to which direction the skulk is moving (and sometimes facing!). That isn't good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't see any warping there. Perhaps the model is <i>slightly</i> jittery, but that is partly also because of the player moving his view back and forth rapidly to achieve the jumps. The model facing the direction the skulk was moving was pretty on in those videos.
That sounds good. If you do it again, you could also chose a lighted corridor in docking instead of such a dark pit, where you can't tell nothing for sure.
Heh, play against non groundskulks and see how your brain treats the animations sometimes.
These complaints are legitimate but Cory said they are going to work on it so honestly I think the objective from here out is to help them get rid of the problem, not act like it isn't.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is one of the biggest annoyances with NS2, don't try to show off by claiming it's not an issue. you aren't impressing anyone<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In fact we're currently fixing things you don't even know about which will be much better than any perceived criticism you could expand upon. In fact as soon as we can increase ambiance by another 50% (more shadows, shadows that have their own shadows, change cysts so it covers lights into a dull grey, more ambient noises(each object in every room will make a noise), a better immersing theme song at the beginning of each round that's at least 30% louder than the current one which goes for 3 minutes to get everyone in the mood for better atmospherics, completely cut sound when below 40 Hp because we all know before you die you actually become deaf and many more features you will come to appreciate how in depth this unique RTS/FPS hybrid is to create and maintain.
In fact a commonly misunderstood feature in our game is dying around corners as some sort of problem or 'lag', I would post a tutorial video to better explain the Coriolis effect and expand upon the varied lore of Natural Selection but it would possibly be lost upon the plebians that frequent this particular sub forum as such I'll refer you to the .lua files which indeed contain most up to date information regarding any possible queries.
(Posting any criticism, especially clearly documented, to the home of the UWEdrones, what were you thinking.)
edit: In fact format.
this is one of the biggest annoyances with NS2, don't try to show off by claiming it's not an issue. you aren't impressing anyone<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the least annoying thing with NS2, not trying to show off but it's really not hard to see perceive direction of motion. The models aren't jittery or "warpy" as some of you are saying. Any teleporting is a function of the editing. The only actual problem is the model isn't oriented in the exact direction of travel. And honestly I don't see how that matters, it's not impossible to follow something if it's not facing the expected direction. If that was the case where your brain NEEDED to have something facing the right direction in order to tell which way it's moving, how the hell could you track a rubber ball bouncing off of a wall?
<!--quoteo(post=2058179:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:11 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 8 2013, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wtf? Did you guys even watch his video? Here's a second link to an obvious problem:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=1m33s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=1m33s</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s</a>
Now understand that in fast paced combat, if the models are jittery or warpy then they become much harder to hit. I can't believe people can't make the connection between how poor animations can cause difficulty tracking. Even the animations that aren't warping are still ambiguous as to which direction the skulk is moving (and sometimes facing!). That isn't good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea watched the video, there's no warping or jitters. Maybe it's just your computer stuttering, but I see nothing at all. There's a spot where it looked like he might have teleported a little but I'm willing to bet that was either lag or editing. Seriously with the demo system I don't see why people don't just submit .dem files. They let you see things first hand with no questions asked. And again poor animations don't mean jack for ######, have you played TFC? Was a great game but man the animations were jacked up sometimes. Didn't stop people from kicking ass though, and I'll use this example again. If you NEEDED to see proper orientation to track something, you couldn't possible be follow a rubber ball bouncing off a wall could you? But as it turns out, you can.
Normal bunnyhop looked like a skulk constantly walking even though they where jumping up and down. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr_3iey-0WU you can find examples somewhere in the video) so pretty straight forward. thats why it maked it quite easy to hit a bhopping skulk after you got used to it.
After they applied that patch and you didn't need to hold down crouch anymore the skulk animation changed to the original jump animation which was completely f*cked up in combination with bunnyhop (can't find a video on youtube). It looked horrible to the eye, the skulk made rapid movements twitching to any side depending on your mouse movements (you could even amplify the effect by moving the mouse around). Even though the mechanic of bunnyhop itself didn't change at all, the brain had a really hard time to predict the movement, since the animation was very "unnatural".
Dude, chill. The game is bound to have minor mistakes. It only has to be playable, which it is. Now the devs have their own schedule and part of that was making sure that the vast majority of people can play this game without crashing and making sure the game objects are balanced for both sides. Now the fact that aliens are winning more than marines (www.ns2stats.org 56.2% are won by aliens) DOESN'T mean the devs neglected the game. If what you are saying is true wouldn't that percentage be higher?
Bottom line is that the game works, most marines who know what they are doing can successfully shoot down a skulk but will be killed from a variety of other reasons, not just the one you are pointing out.
And right now we are all itching for new content. So the devs are right to focus completely on new content this next week or so, but I'm not saying they are focusing solely on that.