Dev input on Vortex?
Solarity
Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Why is it in the game?</div>First of all I love this game and I think it has been one of the least buggy releases of a new game I have seen. If any of this comes across as condescending, it is not.
I question why this ability is even in the game and I would like to hear from an official source how they intended for it to be used? Most khamms don't research it, I have only used it in a hand full of occasions with no success. I tried to vortex an arms lab, though that one marine's LMG still hurt very bad, does this even work? I have never been vortexed in the 235 hours I have played. I hear it might be good for trying to kill a heavy or a welder of a heavy. Very few heavies go w/o support, though if they do they are generally pretty easy to kill w/o vortex. I have heard of trying to vortex an IP. Though late game this last tactic seems very difficult as many rines are in base defending. It also uses 60% of your energy leaving little to attack and get away. I have heard nothing but complaints by people that try to use it and only hear that vortex is great for cooling the mini guns down or reloading.
I play a fade very effectively, even though I don't use vortex, though I would like to know exactly it's intended purpose in the game. If there is something I have missed about this ability, then feel free to enlighten me and I will listen. Though right now I have to see any proof it's effectiveness in a game for a T3 upgrade. I would like to hear something official about this.
Again this is not a rant, but this seems to be the only thing I can find in the game after 235 hours played that doesn't seem to belong there.
I question why this ability is even in the game and I would like to hear from an official source how they intended for it to be used? Most khamms don't research it, I have only used it in a hand full of occasions with no success. I tried to vortex an arms lab, though that one marine's LMG still hurt very bad, does this even work? I have never been vortexed in the 235 hours I have played. I hear it might be good for trying to kill a heavy or a welder of a heavy. Very few heavies go w/o support, though if they do they are generally pretty easy to kill w/o vortex. I have heard of trying to vortex an IP. Though late game this last tactic seems very difficult as many rines are in base defending. It also uses 60% of your energy leaving little to attack and get away. I have heard nothing but complaints by people that try to use it and only hear that vortex is great for cooling the mini guns down or reloading.
I play a fade very effectively, even though I don't use vortex, though I would like to know exactly it's intended purpose in the game. If there is something I have missed about this ability, then feel free to enlighten me and I will listen. Though right now I have to see any proof it's effectiveness in a game for a T3 upgrade. I would like to hear something official about this.
Again this is not a rant, but this seems to be the only thing I can find in the game after 235 hours played that doesn't seem to belong there.
Comments
We have been discussing it heavily lately, and rest assured the Devs are on it.
Standby
Mostly because it would scale to the irritation factor (Infantry Portal Count) of the enemy team.
But even if that idea doesn't grab hold, we're all united in agreeing Vortex sucks right now.
Extreme Niche Value (vortex exo; kill welder) doesn't justify an ability's existence.
TBH I wish they could take out the ability and just add an ability to give extra hp/armor and 30% more damage or something. Just do that until you guys can think of something better. This would/should be quick and easy todo than revamping it. Just give us this end game scalability then replace it with something else later.
Good to hear its not been left as is, have found it one of the most frustrating upgrades to use (even xenocide is almost more useful).
Any other suggestions that are being thrown around (such as replacing the vortex with fade cupcakes or acid rockets)?
The vortex idea I think is good but by mid-late game its not enough help, by making it 1v1 and neither party can be hurt by those outside of the vortex.
This idea would bring the fight to the fades strength (1v1) and actually make this a lot more useful.
Three hives up? Vortex Researched? Chances are things are going pretty damn well for your team, and its just coming down to finishing off the other team. This is not where Vortex shines. Blinking into the marine spawn and Vortexing a random target does basically nothing for the effort. In such a situation, the fade in general contributes basically nothing. Onos provide raw power against grouped marines, Lerks provide umbra and spores for obscuring vision, Gorges obviously bring bile bomb, and skulks are a buffer between evolutions. The fade does basically nothing, and I think people are attributing this late game uselessness to the fades late game final ability.
However, in other, more anecdotal scenarios, Vortex can be extremely good. Just last night I was playing in a game in which aliens managed to take 3 hives against a somewhat organised marine team, even though the aliens themselves were quite inexperienced and unorganized. What this resulted in was some pretty aggressive play from the marines even though the aliens had all research completed. In this situation, Vortex was really indispensable. Being able to vortex that lone jetpacker defending against bile rushes is incredibly useful, and obviously taking Exos out of the equation in a fire fight is a massive advantage. With adrenaline its possible to choose a target and keep them out of the fight indefinitely, as long as his teammates aren't left to kill you.
I know its all anecdotal, but I think that if Vortex can go from being what seems to be completely useless, to at least being arguably useful, then maybe the situation has more to do with it than the actual skill.
Vortexing exos is nice too. Been on receiving end once, pretty annoying when your team gets slashed and you can't do nothing about it. But then again, you rarely see exos when you have vortex.
Sets speed to 1/2 or 1/3 of the usual and prevents jumping. Jetpack still usable but slow applies.
Vortex PG. And if you hear beacon - Vortex Obs.
Thats all you need to take over techpoint without any problems.
2) Vortex hive to save it until cavalry comes.
3) Well, and if you REALLY good fade - Vortex Exo @ Kill marine
Vortex PG. And if you hear beacon - Vortex Obs.
Thats all you need to take over techpoint without any problems.
2) Vortex hive to save it until cavalry comes.
3) Well, and if you REALLY good fade - Vortex Exo @ Kill marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) empty marine bases do not exist in 99% of cases where the aliens have vortex upgraded.
2) wat
3) yes
Are there rare situations when these 3rd hive abilities can be used elsewhere? Sure. However they are so rare that it's really not worth discussing. (Example, on a 5 tech point map like Summit, the marines can secure two and the aliens three, which has them both at max tech. So a xenocide skulk can be of use to take out a batch of EXO welders in a narrow set of circumstances. After that, mopping up the EXOs is a breeze.)
If someone is asking for a 3rd hive ability in game, I'm usually asking why we haven't finished the marines off already. Far too often the aliens like to 'play with their food' when there is really no need.
2) wat
3) yes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) For fade it's not too hard to kill 1-2 marines at base. And after this - tech point have no chances, because adrenaline gorge can kill power node by one enegry bar.
2) Keep hive invincible until other teammates comes. Espetially when marines are using arcs or long-range shooting.
<!--quoteo(post=2060761:date=Jan 15 2013, 02:29 AM:name=Draconis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draconis @ Jan 15 2013, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vortex arms lab during an heavy alien push so that marines lose all their upgrades is also useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wiki:
>> If the only functional Arms Lab is unpowered or destroyed, <b>newly respawned</b> Marines will not receive researched upgrades; however, the upgrades will persist for any existing Marines until death.
Are there rare situations when these 3rd hive abilities can be used elsewhere? Sure. However they are so rare that it's really not worth discussing. (Example, on a 5 tech point map like Summit, the marines can secure two and the aliens three, which has them both at max tech. So a xenocide skulk can be of use to take out a batch of EXO welders in a narrow set of circumstances. After that, mopping up the EXOs is a breeze.)
If someone is asking for a 3rd hive ability in game, I'm usually asking why we haven't finished the marines off already. Far too often the aliens like to 'play with their food' when there is really no need.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree most 3rd hive abilities are gimicky (dont get me started on the futility of xenocide) but not so much on aliens being able to easily finish a marine team.
Aliens (even fully tech'd) take a lot more effort to kill a 1 tech point marine team than a marine team (full tech) has trouble killing a 1 tech point alien team.
Heck if a game goes on for more than 2-3 min after 2nd hive has been taken down the marines are green, aliens with only 1 hive struggle to hold of w0 a0 marine....put them up against w3 a3, jp's, exo and arcs and you will quickly see that last hive die.
Aliens need some finishers other than multiple Onos, otherwise you can find an alien team is "playing with their food" whilst they save up the res.
Often you lose an onos in a push into a 2nd tech point, so your final push either pushes on and falters or waits for more people to be able to afford an onos (not exactly a quick process).
I agree marines losing the game takes too long to finish off, mostly its not due to aliens delaying but rather lacking anything other than onos capable of surviving in a room with 4+ marines shooting with w3 (plus mins, GL's, FT'ers etc).
3rd hive tech for aliens is pathetic (implementation wise they have not worked as I am sure they did in theory), stomps good for laughs but JP's and exo's are immune so it has limited benefit, Umbra is ok but limited, vortex is a nuisance and great place to reload in as a marine, xenocide is laughable again when will you see w0 a0 marines in a game where aliens have 3 hives.
Is this guy high or is it actually possible to vortex friendly structures now?
This sounds useful and REALLY fun to use. Pulls in marines and jetpacks to a fixed spot and slows exos trying to move away from that spot. Figure it could be a medium to slow projectile that you hit the button a second time to detonate into the pulling vortex or automatically when it hits a surface or max range. This gives you a weapon to help deal with large groups of marines as well as pretty much a hard-counter to jetpacks (something 3 hive aliens both deserve and need).
<!--quoteo(post=2060779:date=Jan 15 2013, 02:54 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 15 2013, 02:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3rd hive tech for aliens is pathetic (implementation wise they have not worked as I am sure they did in theory), stomps good for laughs but JP's and exo's are immune so it has limited benefit, Umbra is ok but limited, vortex is a nuisance and great place to reload in as a marine, xenocide is laughable again when will you see w0 a0 marines in a game where aliens have 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JPs are only immune to stomp when flying, which they can't do forever. If you catch them on the ground for even a second stomp will let you kill them. Overall stomp is about where the 3rd hive abilities should be, by itself it's more useful than most of the 2hive abilities other than bile bomb. It's the other three abilities that need work. Umbra is useful, but not nearly useful enough to justify being 3hive.
If you can time a stomp for when a JP'er is out of fuel and in range...your a lucky onos, most smart marines know how to stay out of range.
Stomp started out as 2nd hive...but got pushed back as stomps somewhat less OP'd later in the game, so really its just a 2nd tier attack that needs 3 hives...as there is nothing you can get for the onos on two hives.
ftfy