Spores are intended for mid-game, and would be quite OP if they could be shot from far away, making the lerk an unkillable sporing monster. It's already pretty hard to kill from far away, and the only chance for good lerks to go down is to make them get close so they can be shot with shotguns. That's what non-ranged spores do.
Umbra is intended for late game (perhaps the last marine base) where there is usually so much spam that going in with spores isn't much of an option. That's why you spray umbra on your gorges/oni from far away in relative safety.
Neither ability is "offensive/defensive." Spores can be used offensively and defensively (in fact it's MUCH easier to use spores defensively because you can spore and then marines have to walk in the cloud if they want to attack), and umbra can be used offensively and defensively as being a passive (teammate "buff") ability it only depends on what your teammates are doing.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Those saying that the lerk needed to fly with the ns2 version of ranged spores are incorrect. Never needed to. You just had to "peek" around a corner for a split second. Flying was for travel only, not engaging. I know this because I abused the hell out of this mechanic everyday when i could. I actually found it incredibly fun to play as.. <b>just not against.</b>
You dont need better performance to know that an idea that sounds wrong on paper wouldn't work. Does this mean that crop dusting spores don't have their own problems? No of course not.. but this whole "lets try it again" thing isnt necessary. We know what happens when you give the lerk ranged spores.. the lerk has to risk it's life waaayyy less to have incredible impacts.
Even when they nerfed spores to barely do any damage and be a small radius cloud - able to safely walk through at a slow pace - it was still an effective "peek and fire" mechanic that was at best frustrating to the receiving end.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An offensive ability that requires the Lerk to make himself vulnerable in order to attack.
A defensive ability that requires the target being defended to make himself (less) vulnerable in order to attack.
From an evolutionary sense it may seem counter intuitive. Makes perfect sense from a gameplay point of view though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shooting umbra in NS (no it isn't NS1) made it an effective defensive tool. Spiking from a door way next to 3 healing chambers was a bit OP. Playing alien with all the options has a much steeper learning curve than playing marine. Getting the balance right is tricky. A experienced competitive player as a lerk could seem very OP while in a pub with a player not so good, (like Me) the lerk is easy pray.
just want to point out it takes only 22 bullets or 1-2 shotgun shots to die as a lerk so spores barely do anything ever. You could use them to delay marines but that's not worth the risk or effort when spikes are the lerk's best weapon.
With the reintroduction of Spikes (compared w/ NS1) it makes sense for Spores to be a trailing AOE rather than a ranged AOE. That said, I do feel like Spores in its current state (longevity vs. cost vs. damage vs. AOE radius) doesn't quite cut it and I often hold off on researching it til we're heading towards the 3rd hive (since it's needed for Umbra, which is very useful.)
Spore's issues can be solved by tweaking its parameters -- a fundamental redesign isn't required.
Umbra shouldn't even really be in the discussion, as it's pretty damn solid currently.
Firstly, I really think it's a bad idea to use our experience in the beta where lerks were vastly different and where performance was horrible to make final judgments here. You only have to look at the gorge spit to see how different balancing things is in different environments.
We have two goals but I don't think these are mutually exclusive if you approach it in the right way. The first is that you want to get the lerk up and flying and the second is that you want the lerk to be able to perform support roles without committing itself (because, like it or not, this is retarded against good aimers).
The argument that projectile spores leads to static lerking is a legitimate one and the "peek and fire" mechanic is definitely prevalent with vanilla projectile spores but that's exactly why 4-5 alternatives were posited; spore-spikes, momentum-based and range:ratio spores as viable examples. Many of these would make the "peek and fire" ineffective or impossible and actually do far more to encourage flying (especially in the momentum-based spores' case). Couple any of these with a competent bite and good movement and you have a great lerk to play with.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2013
I'd be okay with those ideas tweadle.. considering both methods tried haven't worked well.
this is what i see working, a middle ground, some sort of medium distance spray: <img src="http://ban-game-1.gamewise.co/reign-of-fire_banner44-51967-full.jpeg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Why are we considering entire redesigns of the ability? There are several vastly less effective things in NS2 which could use redesigns prior to Spores, especially given that a mere rebalancing is really all that's needed to get it where it needs to be.
If you want to redesign something, spend your effort on Vortex. Maybe Xenocide (although Xeno, like Spores, probably doesn't require a redesign, it just needs rebalancing.) Maybe redesign how whips make GLs barely useful at all.
Redesigns take a massive amount of work, and<b> are guaranteed to make things worse before they make things better</b> -- whereas rebalancing will step the ability in the right direction. Which is why redesigns should only be done when absolutely required.
<!--quoteo(post=2061239:date=Jan 16 2013, 04:06 AM:name=Fonk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fonk @ Jan 16 2013, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Umbra is a defensive ability, yet it is shot. Spores is an offensive ability, yet it is sprayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umbra is a defensive ability, so you can use it from a defensive position. Spores is an offensive ability, so you have to go in for an attack to use it.
Comments
Spores is a gas, that is spread like crop dusting, giving an AOE effect...
and Umbra is an "Aura" that is targeted to a specific area or life form!
Spores are intended for mid-game, and would be quite OP if they could be shot from far away, making the lerk an unkillable sporing monster. It's already pretty hard to kill from far away, and the only chance for good lerks to go down is to make them get close so they can be shot with shotguns. That's what non-ranged spores do.
Umbra is intended for late game (perhaps the last marine base) where there is usually so much spam that going in with spores isn't much of an option. That's why you spray umbra on your gorges/oni from far away in relative safety.
Neither ability is "offensive/defensive." Spores can be used offensively and defensively (in fact it's MUCH easier to use spores defensively because you can spore and then marines have to walk in the cloud if they want to attack), and umbra can be used offensively and defensively as being a passive (teammate "buff") ability it only depends on what your teammates are doing.
Never needed to. You just had to "peek" around a corner for a split second. Flying was for travel only, not engaging.
I know this because I abused the hell out of this mechanic everyday when i could. I actually found it incredibly fun to play as.. <b>just not against.</b>
You dont need better performance to know that an idea that sounds wrong on paper wouldn't work.
Does this mean that crop dusting spores don't have their own problems? No of course not.. but this whole "lets try it again" thing isnt necessary. We know what happens when you give the lerk ranged spores.. the lerk has to risk it's life waaayyy less to have incredible impacts.
Even when they nerfed spores to barely do any damage and be a small radius cloud - able to safely walk through at a slow pace - it was still an effective "peek and fire" mechanic that was at best frustrating to the receiving end.
A defensive ability that requires the target being defended to make himself (less) vulnerable in order to attack.
From an evolutionary sense it may seem counter intuitive. Makes perfect sense from a gameplay point of view though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shooting umbra in NS (no it isn't NS1) made it an effective defensive tool. Spiking from a door way next to 3 healing chambers was a bit OP.
Playing alien with all the options has a much steeper learning curve than playing marine. Getting the balance right is tricky. A experienced competitive player as a lerk could seem very OP while in a pub with a player not so good, (like Me) the lerk is easy pray.
Spore's issues can be solved by tweaking its parameters -- a fundamental redesign isn't required.
Umbra shouldn't even really be in the discussion, as it's pretty damn solid currently.
We have two goals but I don't think these are mutually exclusive if you approach it in the right way. The first is that you want to get the lerk up and flying and the second is that you want the lerk to be able to perform support roles without committing itself (because, like it or not, this is retarded against good aimers).
The argument that projectile spores leads to static lerking is a legitimate one and the "peek and fire" mechanic is definitely prevalent with vanilla projectile spores but that's exactly why 4-5 alternatives were posited; spore-spikes, momentum-based and range:ratio spores as viable examples. Many of these would make the "peek and fire" ineffective or impossible and actually do far more to encourage flying (especially in the momentum-based spores' case). Couple any of these with a competent bite and good movement and you have a great lerk to play with.
this is what i see working, a middle ground, some sort of medium distance spray:
<img src="http://ban-game-1.gamewise.co/reign-of-fire_banner44-51967-full.jpeg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If you want to redesign something, spend your effort on Vortex. Maybe Xenocide (although Xeno, like Spores, probably doesn't require a redesign, it just needs rebalancing.) Maybe redesign how whips make GLs barely useful at all.
Redesigns take a massive amount of work, and<b> are guaranteed to make things worse before they make things better</b> -- whereas rebalancing will step the ability in the right direction. Which is why redesigns should only be done when absolutely required.
Spores is an offensive ability, yet it is sprayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umbra is a defensive ability, so you can use it from a defensive position.
Spores is an offensive ability, so you have to go in for an attack to use it.
Edit - I should read page 2+ before posting.