<!--quoteo(post=2061595:date=Jan 16 2013, 04:59 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Jan 16 2013, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just remove the stupid blinding effect. So dumb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but then it would be more like NS1. also known as...good. this game HAS to be different, even if most if not all of the new ideas/mechanics have been its weakest points.
<!--quoteo(post=2062196:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:52 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A single, lone, only one, gorge (10 pRes) should be able to fend off a single, lone, only one, marine (0 pRes). Not more than one, but a single one. Not you and your buddies vs a single gorge; you alone vs the gorge. Just in a 1 on 1, especially if the marine only has an LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry but I don't <i>fully </i>agree with you on that.
In NS1 if you got the jump on a gorge he was dead. You never saw gorges in NS1 rushing a spawn, because they would never survive the encounter. (The only time they were there was at endgame, when the marines were stuck in base waiting to get finished.) You almost always found gorges in hives, or on the entrances to hives though. They would be dropping chambers and fortifying their hives, not attacking marines or solo rushing marine spawn.
I agree *in principle* with your remark that a gorge should be able to (as you said further down) "defend itself", but gorge spit DAMAGE should be reduced. To defend itself a gorge is able to do one of three things:<ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol>Being able to do all of the above AND easily kill the attacker makes the gorge overpowered.
If I get the jump on a gorge, in a one-on-one battle, I should have the upper hand to kill it as a stock marine. If that gorge is out on the front lines trying to 'pull a fast one' then death is a risk that he is taking. The gorge is not 'front line infantry', it's a support unit that heals and has ranged attacks. That's also why he has clogs and hydras, so he can block marines from getting through.
Alternately, if the gorge sees me coming, then he should be able to escape by healing himself and belly sliding away. There is a reason the gorge's speed is 5.1 and the marine's is 5. The gorge is supposed to be able to ESCAPE a marine that he is aware of. It's also why belly slide is tied to infestation, since that is where he should have the advantage - on home turf.
I don't have a problem with gorges being able to 'defend' against attacks, but that defence should be the ability to survive, not an easy means to kill the attacker.
<!--quoteo(post=2062282:date=Jan 17 2013, 02:37 PM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Jan 17 2013, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Step to the left. Step to the right. Why doesn't anybody listen to this sound advice?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> because it's equally as easy to hit as any other movement method once the pattern is recognized by the opponent. see any other game with projectiles.
<!--quoteo(post=2062287:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:43 PM:name=PaLaGi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PaLaGi @ Jan 17 2013, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but then it would be more like NS1. also known as...good. this game HAS to be different, even if most if not all of the new ideas/mechanics have been its weakest points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2062300:date=Jan 17 2013, 05:05 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 17 2013, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but I don't <i>fully </i>agree with you on that.
In NS1 if you got the jump on a gorge he was dead. You never saw gorges in NS1 rushing a spawn, because they would never survive the encounter. (The only time they were there was at endgame, when the marines were stuck in base waiting to get finished.) You almost always found gorges in hives, or on the entrances to hives though. They would be dropping chambers and fortifying their hives, not attacking marines or solo rushing marine spawn.
I agree *in principle* with your remark that a gorge should be able to (as you said further down) "defend itself", but gorge spit DAMAGE should be reduced. To defend itself a gorge is able to do one of three things:<ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol>Being able to do all of the above AND easily kill the attacker makes the gorge overpowered.
If I get the jump on a gorge, in a one-on-one battle, I should have the upper hand to kill it as a stock marine. If that gorge is out on the front lines trying to 'pull a fast one' then death is a risk that he is taking. The gorge is not 'front line infantry', it's a support unit that heals and has ranged attacks. That's also why he has clogs and hydras, so he can block marines from getting through.
Alternately, if the gorge sees me coming, then he should be able to escape by healing himself and belly sliding away. There is a reason the gorge's speed is 5.1 and the marine's is 5. The gorge is supposed to be able to ESCAPE a marine that he is aware of. It's also why belly slide is tied to infestation, since that is where he should have the advantage - on home turf.
I don't have a problem with gorges being able to 'defend' against attacks, but that defence should be the ability to survive, not an easy means to kill the attacker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this and this somes it up nicely
Anyone else saying they're fine are just the type of people that played the flavor of the month classes in WoW when balance was reworked. They have a hard time playing on equal turf, so they feel better having an upperhand.
<!--quoteo(post=2062282:date=Jan 17 2013, 02:37 PM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Jan 17 2013, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would you do this? I mean, honestly, extrapolate on why these changes would be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The know what words mean police would like a word with you. They were hoping you could extrapolate on what you mean :)
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
<!--quoteo(post=2061550:date=Jan 16 2013, 09:57 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 16 2013, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drop damage to 30 and remove effect on marines screen. Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much this. roma locuta causa finita
honestly, right now, i just spam spit in the general direction of the enemy, cuz i really don't have any experience of hitting reliably. it always comes as a pleasant surprise when i actually clip someone twice, but yeah, it still needs work.
Not SureJoin Date: 2013-01-06Member: 177758Members
I don't see a lot of 1v1 gorge victories tbh. I see a lot more gorges getting kills in fights that involve multiple players on both teams, but in my personal experience as a gorge and from watching fights as alien comm, I don't think a gorge can beat a marine 1v1 if they're equally skilled and have a similar amount of upgrades.
It'd be nice if gorge could only set up barricades where there were cysts. Lots of early game walling going on. With their damage ability now in the early game against weak marines, they really shut down a lot of movement.
I see plenty of 1v1 victories now. If there's a proper wall with their turrets, and marines starting at lvl1 in armor and weapons, marines get rocked.
Gorge spit becomes pretty much useless after marines get armour upgrades, so I really don't see what the QQ is about. He's finally not entirely useless in combat anymore and people already want him nerfed, jesus.
As has been said, new gorge spit is more of a problem early game. Based on my experience, people who go gorge early game are the people you don't really want to face as any lifeform--it's not really something a noob does. In pub matches, early game OP is likely a symptom of the over-representation of more skilled players. So I think the changes this makes in competitive play will be the best indicator of the real "degree of OP".
If a gorge caught out in the open were able to pretty handily kill a marine I would see a problem. Even then if he jumps around, heals, spits, and the marine has real ###### for accuracy it shouldn't be impossible to win (wasn't before the patch either). A gorge shooting down a hallway or vent and ducking behind a corner should however be able to easily kill a marine, more if they don't either take cover or rush his hiding place.
This thread is stupid... can't even imagine the amount of QQ going on here if the Gorge would get his olds Webs back or Babblers: "Zomg that support unit stunlocked me!!! NERF IT! NERF IT WITH FIRE!"
In NS1 a smart Gorge could go 1on1 with an Heavy Armor and win, in NS1 a smart Gorge could build defenses capable of holding back a complete Marine team.
In NS2 the Gorge can be lucky to survive an 1on1 with an Vanilla Marine, in NS2 the only defenses a Gorge is able to build are crappy retarded tulips.
And don't even get me started with this "support role" bull######... originally all classes where supposed to be versatile and not just locked into a single playstyle. The Gorge has been already boring enough with the broken Spit, now he's somewhat decent and people cry and complain.
You want combat disadvantages for support roles? Sure, how about this one: Marines with a welder shouldn't be able to carry a Main weapon, at least remove their pistol. After all they are <b>support</b> so they shouldn't stand an equal chance in an 1on1 situation. Let's not forget that the Welder enables armor healing, faster building and structure repair (Sounds like a Gorge.. huh..), all for the cheap price of 5 Pres. A Gorge needs to invest 10 Pres to do the same things, so obviously a Welder Marine needs to be nerfed as he's clearly a way more supportive unit than a Gorge!!1
No i'm not serious here, just trying to point out how shallow some of the arguments around here are. Gorge rushes have barely been viable in NS2, now when they are somewhat viable people start crying and complaining because suddenly they need to pay attention to what the enemy team is doing. Got problems with Gorge rushes? That's nothing a shotgun and a little bit of focus fire couldn't fix.
The hysteria in this thread is amazing. The gorge hasn't become overpowered. He is just not an easy kill anymore.
And NO, a support unit should not be defenseless. Because that takes the fun out of this class. And it isn't even necessary. Is the PlanetSide2 Medic defenseless? Is the TF2 engineer defenseless?
Creating a class in an ego shooter, that is not able to participate in the main part of the game (the shooting) is stupid. Before the hitreg fix, gorges were the absolute minority. Because most people doesn't want to play them out of fun. A few did, because it helped the team win. But this alone is never a good incentive in game design. It needs to be fun for the player. And not being able to defend yourself against single marines is frustrating, not fun.
And right now, the gorge is only able to defend himself against single marines, if they are to stupid to dodge.
This whole thread is a ######isation of the actual question at hand which is whether the gorge spit is reasonable, not whether it is OP. Hysteria and QQing aside, I think that it merits a nerf. EVEN IF MARINES CAN DODGE, YO. AND YES, GORGIES MUST DIE, LOL. AND SERIOUSLY, I CAN AIM. AND NO, I NEVER PLAY ALIENS.
we took out a gorge rush with a beacon... nothings changed from previously
the old issue with gorge rush was the heal spray AOE effect, which they nerfed to oblivion (8 dmg per heal spray now?)
spit hurts but you can't really rush with it.
You can kill solo marines with it if they can't manage to dodge your spit but it just means no more free meals, you have to work to kill gorges now and they have a fighting chance back.
I can barely believe this thread still has people claiming that gorge spit is in anyway overpowered. If you cannot avoid spit in a pub... I am not sure what is wrong with you. You can see it coming... and you can dodge it... even then you have a huge rifle which does a crap ton of damage. I am not sure what the problem is...
Using the dodge argument that way is dumb - you could justify any amount damage that way. It's a question of to what extent and at what cost can you dodge/avoid it and how high is the punishment for not doing so?
<!--quoteo(post=2062537:date=Jan 18 2013, 05:36 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jan 18 2013, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want combat disadvantages for support roles? Sure, how about this one: Marines with a welder shouldn't be able to carry a Main weapon, at least remove their pistol. After all they are <b>support</b> so they shouldn't stand an equal chance in an 1on1 situation. Let's not forget that the Welder enables armor healing, faster building and structure repair (Sounds like a Gorge.. huh..), all for the cheap price of 5 Pres. A Gorge needs to invest 10 Pres to do the same things, so obviously a Welder Marine needs to be nerfed as he's clearly a way more supportive unit than a Gorge!!1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually welder does replace a weapon, it replaces your axe. The axe is a significant weapon when it comes to taking down structures. If you take a welder you will not be taking down rts unless you're okay emptying all your ammo, and certainly not taking down anything else. Sure you can kill cysts fast but you're only putting yourself at the disadvantage kneeling down doing that, for any incoming lifeform.
A gorge's spit does 40dmg, blinds, and is long range. Provided you get close to a gorge who is usually hugging his turrets and wall, the turrets should finish the job generally. I'm talking early game mainly. They're an option straight away from the start at a cheap cost, while marines are only on LVL1 armor/weapon.
<!--quoteo(post=2062630:date=Jan 18 2013, 08:59 AM:name=Tinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tinks @ Jan 18 2013, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually welder does replace a weapon, it replaces your axe. The axe is a significant weapon when it comes to taking down structures. If you take a welder you will not be taking down rts unless you're okay emptying all your ammo, and certainly not taking down anything else. Sure you can kill cysts fast but you're only putting yourself at the disadvantage kneeling down doing that, for any incoming lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you still have your Axe, but you can't use it unless you drop your welder. This is something I'll do at times. I'm out in the field by myself near a vacant harvester and want to take it down without wasting all my ammo but the welder is too slow. I'll usually kill the cysts quick w/ the welder then drop it and get my axe back and cut down the harvester and then pick my welder back up after I finish.
<!--quoteo(post=2062300:date=Jan 17 2013, 06:05 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 17 2013, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but I don't <i>fully </i>agree with you on that.
In NS1 if you got the jump on a gorge he was dead. You never saw gorges in NS1 rushing a spawn, because they would never survive the encounter. (The only time they were there was at endgame, when the marines were stuck in base waiting to get finished.) You almost always found gorges in hives, or on the entrances to hives though. They would be dropping chambers and fortifying their hives, not attacking marines or solo rushing marine spawn.
I agree *in principle* with your remark that a gorge should be able to (as you said further down) "defend itself", but gorge spit DAMAGE should be reduced. To defend itself a gorge is able to do one of three things:<ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol>Being able to do all of the above AND easily kill the attacker makes the gorge overpowered.
If I get the jump on a gorge, in a one-on-one battle, I should have the upper hand to kill it as a stock marine. If that gorge is out on the front lines trying to 'pull a fast one' then death is a risk that he is taking. The gorge is not 'front line infantry', it's a support unit that heals and has ranged attacks. That's also why he has clogs and hydras, so he can block marines from getting through.
Alternately, if the gorge sees me coming, then he should be able to escape by healing himself and belly sliding away. There is a reason the gorge's speed is 5.1 and the marine's is 5. The gorge is supposed to be able to ESCAPE a marine that he is aware of. It's also why belly slide is tied to infestation, since that is where he should have the advantage - on home turf.
I don't have a problem with gorges being able to 'defend' against attacks, but that defence should be the ability to survive, not an easy means to kill the attacker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual, we almost agree. Remember, we are talking about a lone LMG marine.
If the marine gets the jump on the gorge, the gorge should lose.
But if they see each other down a dusty road, tumble weeds rolling by as a distant raptor scream splits the sky, I think it should be a fair fight, Sure, it probably needs tweaking. I haven't been able to play the newest build so I can only speak hypothetically, but I would remove the blind for the higher damage.
I have tried the "slide and heal" gambit and it rarely works. Belly slide makes you move in a straight line, much too easy a target for a marine, even while trying to heal (which will compromise your ability to belly slide as you run out of energy).
And I don't feel they need an "easy means" of killing a marine. I think the gorge should be limping away from the fight, but surviving. Of course, all this will change with arms lab upgrades. Even with the proposed gorge tunnels, the gorge is a pale shadow of what he was and with the death of "Walls of Lame" and other such gorge forts, the increased damage pushes the gorges abilities back toward the often trumpeted "skill" class. His personal skill is the deciding factor in the conflict, not some big Wall of Lame. He stops being Briar Rabbit, running back to his gorge fort. He can actually defend himself from a lone attacker. If he is to be a truly support class, then they need to be able to build crags and shifts and veils again.
Or if he really must be the alien whipping boy, the self heal needs some kind of buff, lower energy cost, faster belly slide or more control while sliding.
Might as well add feathers and a beak and let him sit on eggs to hatch them in the hive while your at it.
If the gorge becomes completely helpless in even the most basic conflict, there is little incentive to play him.
On a completely side note, I think the hydra cost should be a one time payment, unless destroyed. If a gorge wants to rebuild hydras, they should not be made to pay the 3 res for "relocating" a hydra.
<!--quoteo(post=2062537:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:36 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jan 18 2013, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread is stupid... can't even imagine the amount of QQ going on here if the Gorge would get his olds Webs back or Babblers: "Zomg that support unit stunlocked me!!! NERF IT! NERF IT WITH FIRE!"
In NS1 a smart Gorge could go 1on1 with an Heavy Armor and win, in NS1 a smart Gorge could build defenses capable of holding back a complete Marine team.
In NS2 the Gorge can be lucky to survive an 1on1 with an Vanilla Marine, in NS2 the only defenses a Gorge is able to build are crappy retarded tulips.
And don't even get me started with this "support role" bull######... originally all classes where supposed to be versatile and not just locked into a single playstyle. The Gorge has been already boring enough with the broken Spit, now he's somewhat decent and people cry and complain.
You want combat disadvantages for support roles? Sure, how about this one: Marines with a welder shouldn't be able to carry a Main weapon, at least remove their pistol. After all they are <b>support</b> so they shouldn't stand an equal chance in an 1on1 situation. Let's not forget that the Welder enables armor healing, faster building and structure repair (Sounds like a Gorge.. huh..), all for the cheap price of 5 Pres. A Gorge needs to invest 10 Pres to do the same things, so obviously a Welder Marine needs to be nerfed as he's clearly a way more supportive unit than a Gorge!!1
No i'm not serious here, just trying to point out how shallow some of the arguments around here are. Gorge rushes have barely been viable in NS2, now when they are somewhat viable people start crying and complaining because suddenly they need to pay attention to what the enemy team is doing. Got problems with Gorge rushes? That's nothing a shotgun and a little bit of focus fire couldn't fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In NS1 the gorge spit did 30 and didn't blind the marine. In NS2 the gorge spit does 40 and blocks marine vision. It is being asked to make it like in NS1. But we can go on crazy hyperboles if you want.
<!--quoteo(post=2062671:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:15 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Jan 18 2013, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 the gorge spit did 30 and didn't blind the marine. In NS2 the gorge spit does 40 and blocks marine vision. It is being asked to make it like in NS1. But we can go on crazy hyperboles if you want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mendasp has a great point. Plus, the design choices in NS1 made a lot more sense. To have that overpowered gorge, you had three hives. The entire point of getting three hives was a guarenteed win. It makes sense that when you allow a team to expand to that point you give them game winning tools. A 10 res gorge does not need game winning tools 2 minutes into the round.
My proposed change to the gorge is either to leave him as is and increase res cost to 20
OR
Reduce spit damage to 30 and remove the blinding/reduce it greatly Introduce diminished returns on healing spray when 3 or more gorges are present, and the healing reduction only applies to other gorges. Other lifeforms are unaffected. (This prevents first 5 minute cheesefests, but allows mass healing during an onos push. Increase Hydra accuracy, slightly reduce the range to make gorges more in line with a defensive support creature. Allow hydras to slowly grow alone Keep gorges at 10 res. These of course are all subjective, but the original intent of the gorge is a support creature. Should a support creature be allowed to defend himself? Of course. Should two of them in tandem be able to fend off a couple marines? Yes. Should they be allowed to deny a major chokepoint, unsupported, for over 15 minutes, with 3-4 marines pressing on them? Absolutely not.
I don't know whether the damage should be nerfed, but the blind effect should definitely be removed IMO. Vision impairing effects have been discussed a hundred times on this forum, but long story short I think we have more than enough as it is. Maybe leave a little bit of spit on the HUD just as a cool atmospheric thing, but it shouldn't be enough to affect your aiming at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2062676:date=Jan 18 2013, 08:25 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 18 2013, 08:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduce spit damage to 30 and remove the blinding/reduce it greatly Introduce diminished returns on healing spray when 3 or more gorges are present, and the healing reduction only applies to other gorges. Other lifeforms are unaffected. (This prevents first 5 minute cheesefests, but allows mass healing during an onos push. Increase Hydra accuracy, slightly reduce the range to make gorges more in line with a defensive support creature. Allow hydras to slowly grow alone<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydras grow alone on infestation Hydra accuracy was stealth buffed significantly this patch (I believe, but nobody is talking about it) Agree gorge needs a nerf and agree with your suggestion, not sure about the heal spray diminishing returns
<!--quoteo(post=2062704:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:04 AM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Jan 18 2013, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras grow alone on infestation Hydra accuracy was stealth buffed significantly this patch (I believe, but nobody is talking about it) Agree gorge needs a nerf and agree with your suggestion, not sure about the heal spray diminishing returns<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Didn't realize it grew on infestation, thought it was just hive presence. Anyway, then I would say instead allow them to grow on their own, but ONLY BE PLACED ON INFESTATION.
Comments
but then it would be more like NS1. also known as...good. this game HAS to be different, even if most if not all of the new ideas/mechanics have been its weakest points.
In NS1 if you got the jump on a gorge he was dead. You never saw gorges in NS1 rushing a spawn, because they would never survive the encounter. (The only time they were there was at endgame, when the marines were stuck in base waiting to get finished.) You almost always found gorges in hives, or on the entrances to hives though. They would be dropping chambers and fortifying their hives, not attacking marines or solo rushing marine spawn.
I agree *in principle* with your remark that a gorge should be able to (as you said further down) "defend itself", but gorge spit DAMAGE should be reduced. To defend itself a gorge is able to do one of three things:<ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol>Being able to do all of the above AND easily kill the attacker makes the gorge overpowered.
If I get the jump on a gorge, in a one-on-one battle, I should have the upper hand to kill it as a stock marine. If that gorge is out on the front lines trying to 'pull a fast one' then death is a risk that he is taking. The gorge is not 'front line infantry', it's a support unit that heals and has ranged attacks. That's also why he has clogs and hydras, so he can block marines from getting through.
Alternately, if the gorge sees me coming, then he should be able to escape by healing himself and belly sliding away. There is a reason the gorge's speed is 5.1 and the marine's is 5. The gorge is supposed to be able to ESCAPE a marine that he is aware of. It's also why belly slide is tied to infestation, since that is where he should have the advantage - on home turf.
I don't have a problem with gorges being able to 'defend' against attacks, but that defence should be the ability to survive, not an easy means to kill the attacker.
because it's equally as easy to hit as any other movement method once the pattern is recognized by the opponent. see any other game with projectiles.
<!--quoteo(post=2062300:date=Jan 17 2013, 05:05 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 17 2013, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but I don't <i>fully </i>agree with you on that.
In NS1 if you got the jump on a gorge he was dead. You never saw gorges in NS1 rushing a spawn, because they would never survive the encounter. (The only time they were there was at endgame, when the marines were stuck in base waiting to get finished.) You almost always found gorges in hives, or on the entrances to hives though. They would be dropping chambers and fortifying their hives, not attacking marines or solo rushing marine spawn.
I agree *in principle* with your remark that a gorge should be able to (as you said further down) "defend itself", but gorge spit DAMAGE should be reduced. To defend itself a gorge is able to do one of three things:<ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol>Being able to do all of the above AND easily kill the attacker makes the gorge overpowered.
If I get the jump on a gorge, in a one-on-one battle, I should have the upper hand to kill it as a stock marine. If that gorge is out on the front lines trying to 'pull a fast one' then death is a risk that he is taking. The gorge is not 'front line infantry', it's a support unit that heals and has ranged attacks. That's also why he has clogs and hydras, so he can block marines from getting through.
Alternately, if the gorge sees me coming, then he should be able to escape by healing himself and belly sliding away. There is a reason the gorge's speed is 5.1 and the marine's is 5. The gorge is supposed to be able to ESCAPE a marine that he is aware of. It's also why belly slide is tied to infestation, since that is where he should have the advantage - on home turf.
I don't have a problem with gorges being able to 'defend' against attacks, but that defence should be the ability to survive, not an easy means to kill the attacker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this and this somes it up nicely
Anyone else saying they're fine are just the type of people that played the flavor of the month classes in WoW when balance was reworked. They have a hard time playing on equal turf, so they feel better having an upperhand.
Then the is gorge able to defend itself without being a killer (much like a squid using ink in the water).
apparently this is another issue i actually agree with savant
The know what words mean police would like a word with you. They were hoping you could extrapolate on what you mean :)
Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much this.
roma locuta causa finita
.. ;)
If one was to change something, I'd rather reduce the rate of fire than damage/shot.
With their damage ability now in the early game against weak marines, they really shut down a lot of movement.
I see plenty of 1v1 victories now. If there's a proper wall with their turrets, and marines starting at lvl1 in armor and weapons, marines get rocked.
In NS1 a smart Gorge could go 1on1 with an Heavy Armor and win, in NS1 a smart Gorge could build defenses capable of holding back a complete Marine team.
In NS2 the Gorge can be lucky to survive an 1on1 with an Vanilla Marine, in NS2 the only defenses a Gorge is able to build are crappy retarded tulips.
And don't even get me started with this "support role" bull######... originally all classes where supposed to be versatile and not just locked into a single playstyle. The Gorge has been already boring enough with the broken Spit, now he's somewhat decent and people cry and complain.
You want combat disadvantages for support roles? Sure, how about this one: Marines with a welder shouldn't be able to carry a Main weapon, at least remove their pistol. After all they are <b>support</b> so they shouldn't stand an equal chance in an 1on1 situation. Let's not forget that the Welder enables armor healing, faster building and structure repair (Sounds like a Gorge.. huh..), all for the cheap price of 5 Pres. A Gorge needs to invest 10 Pres to do the same things, so obviously a Welder Marine needs to be nerfed as he's clearly a way more supportive unit than a Gorge!!1
No i'm not serious here, just trying to point out how shallow some of the arguments around here are. Gorge rushes have barely been viable in NS2, now when they are somewhat viable people start crying and complaining because suddenly they need to pay attention to what the enemy team is doing. Got problems with Gorge rushes? That's nothing a shotgun and a little bit of focus fire couldn't fix.
And NO, a support unit should not be defenseless. Because that takes the fun out of this class. And it isn't even necessary. Is the PlanetSide2 Medic defenseless? Is the TF2 engineer defenseless?
Creating a class in an ego shooter, that is not able to participate in the main part of the game (the shooting) is stupid. Before the hitreg fix, gorges were the absolute minority. Because most people doesn't want to play them out of fun. A few did, because it helped the team win. But this alone is never a good incentive in game design. It needs to be fun for the player. And not being able to defend yourself against single marines is frustrating, not fun.
And right now, the gorge is only able to defend himself against single marines, if they are to stupid to dodge.
the old issue with gorge rush was the heal spray AOE effect, which they nerfed to oblivion (8 dmg per heal spray now?)
spit hurts but you can't really rush with it.
You can kill solo marines with it if they can't manage to dodge your spit but it just means no more free meals, you have to work to kill gorges now and they have a fighting chance back.
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L2P?
Actually welder does replace a weapon, it replaces your axe. The axe is a significant weapon when it comes to taking down structures. If you take a welder you will not be taking down rts unless you're okay emptying all your ammo, and certainly not taking down anything else. Sure you can kill cysts fast but you're only putting yourself at the disadvantage kneeling down doing that, for any incoming lifeform.
A gorge's spit does 40dmg, blinds, and is long range. Provided you get close to a gorge who is usually hugging his turrets and wall, the turrets should finish the job generally. I'm talking early game mainly. They're an option straight away from the start at a cheap cost, while marines are only on LVL1 armor/weapon.
Actually you still have your Axe, but you can't use it unless you drop your welder.
This is something I'll do at times. I'm out in the field by myself near a vacant harvester and want to take it down without wasting all my ammo but the welder is too slow.
I'll usually kill the cysts quick w/ the welder then drop it and get my axe back and cut down the harvester and then pick my welder back up after I finish.
In NS1 if you got the jump on a gorge he was dead. You never saw gorges in NS1 rushing a spawn, because they would never survive the encounter. (The only time they were there was at endgame, when the marines were stuck in base waiting to get finished.) You almost always found gorges in hives, or on the entrances to hives though. They would be dropping chambers and fortifying their hives, not attacking marines or solo rushing marine spawn.
I agree *in principle* with your remark that a gorge should be able to (as you said further down) "defend itself", but gorge spit DAMAGE should be reduced. To defend itself a gorge is able to do one of three things:<ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol>Being able to do all of the above AND easily kill the attacker makes the gorge overpowered.
If I get the jump on a gorge, in a one-on-one battle, I should have the upper hand to kill it as a stock marine. If that gorge is out on the front lines trying to 'pull a fast one' then death is a risk that he is taking. The gorge is not 'front line infantry', it's a support unit that heals and has ranged attacks. That's also why he has clogs and hydras, so he can block marines from getting through.
Alternately, if the gorge sees me coming, then he should be able to escape by healing himself and belly sliding away. There is a reason the gorge's speed is 5.1 and the marine's is 5. The gorge is supposed to be able to ESCAPE a marine that he is aware of. It's also why belly slide is tied to infestation, since that is where he should have the advantage - on home turf.
I don't have a problem with gorges being able to 'defend' against attacks, but that defence should be the ability to survive, not an easy means to kill the attacker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual, we almost agree. Remember, we are talking about a lone LMG marine.
If the marine gets the jump on the gorge, the gorge should lose.
But if they see each other down a dusty road, tumble weeds rolling by as a distant raptor scream splits the sky, I think it should be a fair fight, Sure, it probably needs tweaking. I haven't been able to play the newest build so I can only speak hypothetically, but I would remove the blind for the higher damage.
I have tried the "slide and heal" gambit and it rarely works. Belly slide makes you move in a straight line, much too easy a target for a marine, even while trying to heal (which will compromise your ability to belly slide as you run out of energy).
And I don't feel they need an "easy means" of killing a marine. I think the gorge should be limping away from the fight, but surviving. Of course, all this will change with arms lab upgrades. Even with the proposed gorge tunnels, the gorge is a pale shadow of what he was and with the death of "Walls of Lame" and other such gorge forts, the increased damage pushes the gorges abilities back toward the often trumpeted "skill" class. His personal skill is the deciding factor in the conflict, not some big Wall of Lame. He stops being Briar Rabbit, running back to his gorge fort. He can actually defend himself from a lone attacker. If he is to be a truly support class, then they need to be able to build crags and shifts and veils again.
Or if he really must be the alien whipping boy, the self heal needs some kind of buff, lower energy cost, faster belly slide or more control while sliding.
Might as well add feathers and a beak and let him sit on eggs to hatch them in the hive while your at it.
If the gorge becomes completely helpless in even the most basic conflict, there is little incentive to play him.
On a completely side note, I think the hydra cost should be a one time payment, unless destroyed. If a gorge wants to rebuild hydras, they should not be made to pay the 3 res for "relocating" a hydra.
In NS1 a smart Gorge could go 1on1 with an Heavy Armor and win, in NS1 a smart Gorge could build defenses capable of holding back a complete Marine team.
In NS2 the Gorge can be lucky to survive an 1on1 with an Vanilla Marine, in NS2 the only defenses a Gorge is able to build are crappy retarded tulips.
And don't even get me started with this "support role" bull######... originally all classes where supposed to be versatile and not just locked into a single playstyle. The Gorge has been already boring enough with the broken Spit, now he's somewhat decent and people cry and complain.
You want combat disadvantages for support roles? Sure, how about this one: Marines with a welder shouldn't be able to carry a Main weapon, at least remove their pistol. After all they are <b>support</b> so they shouldn't stand an equal chance in an 1on1 situation. Let's not forget that the Welder enables armor healing, faster building and structure repair (Sounds like a Gorge.. huh..), all for the cheap price of 5 Pres. A Gorge needs to invest 10 Pres to do the same things, so obviously a Welder Marine needs to be nerfed as he's clearly a way more supportive unit than a Gorge!!1
No i'm not serious here, just trying to point out how shallow some of the arguments around here are. Gorge rushes have barely been viable in NS2, now when they are somewhat viable people start crying and complaining because suddenly they need to pay attention to what the enemy team is doing. Got problems with Gorge rushes? That's nothing a shotgun and a little bit of focus fire couldn't fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 the gorge spit did 30 and didn't blind the marine.
In NS2 the gorge spit does 40 and blocks marine vision. It is being asked to make it like in NS1. But we can go on crazy hyperboles if you want.
In NS2 the gorge spit does 40 and blocks marine vision. It is being asked to make it like in NS1. But we can go on crazy hyperboles if you want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mendasp has a great point. Plus, the design choices in NS1 made a lot more sense. To have that overpowered gorge, you had three hives. The entire point of getting three hives was a guarenteed win. It makes sense that when you allow a team to expand to that point you give them game winning tools. A 10 res gorge does not need game winning tools 2 minutes into the round.
My proposed change to the gorge is either to leave him as is and increase res cost to 20
OR
Reduce spit damage to 30 and remove the blinding/reduce it greatly
Introduce diminished returns on healing spray when 3 or more gorges are present, and the healing reduction only applies to other gorges. Other lifeforms are unaffected. (This prevents first 5 minute cheesefests, but allows mass healing during an onos push.
Increase Hydra accuracy, slightly reduce the range to make gorges more in line with a defensive support creature.
Allow hydras to slowly grow alone
Keep gorges at 10 res. These of course are all subjective, but the original intent of the gorge is a support creature. Should a support creature be allowed to defend himself? Of course. Should two of them in tandem be able to fend off a couple marines? Yes. Should they be allowed to deny a major chokepoint, unsupported, for over 15 minutes, with 3-4 marines pressing on them? Absolutely not.
Introduce diminished returns on healing spray when 3 or more gorges are present, and the healing reduction only applies to other gorges. Other lifeforms are unaffected. (This prevents first 5 minute cheesefests, but allows mass healing during an onos push.
Increase Hydra accuracy, slightly reduce the range to make gorges more in line with a defensive support creature.
Allow hydras to slowly grow alone<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydras grow alone on infestation
Hydra accuracy was stealth buffed significantly this patch (I believe, but nobody is talking about it)
Agree gorge needs a nerf and agree with your suggestion, not sure about the heal spray diminishing returns
Hydra accuracy was stealth buffed significantly this patch (I believe, but nobody is talking about it)
Agree gorge needs a nerf and agree with your suggestion, not sure about the heal spray diminishing returns<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't realize it grew on infestation, thought it was just hive presence. Anyway, then I would say instead allow them to grow on their own, but ONLY BE PLACED ON INFESTATION.