ENSL s1 div1 semi: Archaea vs. Duplex
fanatic
This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
One of the biggest matches this season is happening tonight and whomever wins it will be taking a spot in the final (and possibly a little bit more... to be revealed later). Archaea and Duplex will be duking it out, both of which should be familiar to anyone who watched tournaments during the beta. It's gonna be pretty awesome, so be sure to catch the stream!
Playoffs bracket: <a href="http://www.ensl.org/contests/134" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/contests/134</a>
Match page: <a href="http://www.ensl.org/matches/4308" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/matches/4308</a>
The match starts at 20:00 CET (2 hours from this posting).
Stream: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/talutha" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/talutha</a>
Playoffs bracket: <a href="http://www.ensl.org/contests/134" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/contests/134</a>
Match page: <a href="http://www.ensl.org/matches/4308" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/matches/4308</a>
The match starts at 20:00 CET (2 hours from this posting).
Stream: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/talutha" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/talutha</a>
Comments
Fana Tane. Fane Tane is just what he says when he gets excited.
Of course I know it's Fana, fane just flows with the sentence better.
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/talutha/b/359243759" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/talutha/b/359243759</a>
Here ya go: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/talutha/b/359243759" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/talutha/b/359243759</a>
Also, some good games. Duplex gave Arc a good run for their money :)
WasabiOne and Talutha are incredibly nice guys, and Talutha is unbelievably patient as I've spent many a time being a bit of a jerk on his server so this isn't an ill-spirited critique. They're both really entertaining guys and I don't mind watching them at all. I just can't but notice it's a consistent theme among the NA casters (and they're the two notable ones, so they get called out unfortunately) is that there is very little, if any, focus or understanding as to strategies in the game. I can cite a numerous examples: not pointing out any marine tech [armor first], not pointing out it nearly took Duplex 3 1/2 minutes to get their second RT up because of arc's pressure, focusing on the pressure on the Hive but not commenting on the equally important fact that allowed arc to get the Crevice RT down then go work on the Atrium RT while they finished the hive RT.. Arc took all Alien RTs within 30 seconds because of well timed pressure as a team. That is so spectacular from a strategic point and from a viewer point, I think it's a shame those nuanced details are rarely, if ever, commented on.
Its not my point to critique missed things, as that is unfair, will always happen and watching a replay is drastically different. I guess I just lament the fact there is little focus on the strategic aspects of the game by any of the NA casters doing the bigger games.
The style they provided is entertaining and, truthfully, needed. I just wish there was more balance to it to provide more insight.
WasabiOne and Talutha are incredibly nice guys, and Talutha is unbelievably patient as I've spent many a time being a bit of a jerk on his server so this isn't an ill-spirited critique. They're both really entertaining guys and I don't mind watching them at all. I just can't but notice it's a consistent theme among the NA casters (and they're the two notable ones, so they get called out unfortunately) is that there is very little, if any, focus or understanding as to strategies in the game. I can cite a numerous examples: not pointing out any marine tech [armor first], not pointing out it nearly took Duplex 3 1/2 minutes to get their second RT up because of arc's pressure, focusing on the pressure on the Hive but not commenting on the equally important fact that allowed arc to get the Crevice RT down then go work on the Atrium RT while they finished the hive RT.. Arc took all Alien RTs within 30 seconds because of well timed pressure as a team. That is so spectacular from a strategic point and from a viewer point, I think it's a shame those nuanced details are rarely, if ever, commented on.
Its not my point to critique missed things, as that is unfair, will always happen and watching a replay is drastically different. I guess I just lament the fact there is little focus on the strategic aspects of the game by any of the NA casters doing the bigger games.
The style they provided is entertaining and, truthfully, needed. I just wish there was more balance to it to provide more insight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think is you try and look at NS as a game like any other, you can make similarities to something like football or basketball.
In football (American fyi) and basketball, there are usually two commentators, the "play-by-play" and the "color".
PBP:
Their job is to commentate on exactly what is happening, point out things like who is taking the shot, who made the pass and whether the shot was for 2 point or three points. The point being is that not everyone who is watching the game, knows all the players involved, doesn't know their numbers, doesn't know what position they play. So the PBP commentator has the job of educating the viewers as to what is happening right in front of them.
Color:
Their job is to point out the interesting behind the scenes game, instead of pointing out who took the shot, they point out who made the great off-ball screen that allowed the wing to slip inside before the forward could react. Or, they point out the fact that the lakers have never lost a game where they have out rebounded the opponent by 15 at halftime. These are the facets of the game that aren't instantly noticeable, he usually gets to do the slow motion breakdown of the play, but also tries to comment while action is going on.
Differences between NS and these sports analogies:
In a game like football or basketball there is almost always a period between events that allows the color commentator to add his thoughts on the game. While NS does have these periods of time where nothing is really happening, they aren't expected, or known ahead of time. When someone makes a basket in basketball you know you have about 10 seconds before the play by play gets going again. In NS there are no defined periods where color commentary gets a chance.
TV announcers don't have to worry about where the screen is being focused. They simply get to watch the whole game as its being played and focus solely on commentating, as opposed to twitch tv casters who have to do both roles.
What is easy? play-by-play. The tough part is color, and as a result in a game where there is often action going on, like NS2, there is a focus on solely talking about the play-by-play and ignoring the meta game.
How to fix:
1) Cast as often as possible with two casters. It allows one person to solely focus on discussing color commentary, rather than ever having to worry about where the screen is for the viewers.
2) Most people who watch NS2 know the basics, and the names are shown right above the players' heads, avoid the desire to constantly talk about what is happening on screen. One of the great things that Blind does when he casts, is he doesn't talk a lot. He only mentions things that are important. Don't be afraid for the cast to be a little quiet, pauses in talking never hurt anyone, allow the viewers to get wrapped in the game for a minute.
3) Recognize where important battles occur, and where unimportant ones aren't. Battles at a PG placement are more important than a 2v2 battle at the res tower closest to base. Don't get me wrong, both are overall important, but which is better, that forward PG placement battle, or the battle to save an RT?
4) Use the off-camera caster to talk about things like how a Res Tower is fortified, and then in a dead period, remember to pan back to it, and focus on what the color commentary caster was talking about. Don't leave a battle to show us a defended RT, not good, look for dead periods!
5) In the new insight mod you have to hit a button to show total res/RTs killed, omg don't bring that up during a match it's awful!
WasabiOne and Talutha are incredibly nice guys, and Talutha is unbelievably patient as I've spent many a time being a bit of a jerk on his server so this isn't an ill-spirited critique. They're both really entertaining guys and I don't mind watching them at all. I just can't but notice it's a consistent theme among the NA casters (and they're the two notable ones, so they get called out unfortunately) is that there is very little, if any, focus or understanding as to strategies in the game. I can cite a numerous examples: not pointing out any marine tech [armor first], not pointing out it nearly took Duplex 3 1/2 minutes to get their second RT up because of arc's pressure, focusing on the pressure on the Hive but not commenting on the equally important fact that allowed arc to get the Crevice RT down then go work on the Atrium RT while they finished the hive RT.. Arc took all Alien RTs within 30 seconds because of well timed pressure as a team. That is so spectacular from a strategic point and from a viewer point, I think it's a shame those nuanced details are rarely, if ever, commented on.
Its not my point to critique missed things, as that is unfair, will always happen and watching a replay is drastically different. I guess I just lament the fact there is little focus on the strategic aspects of the game by any of the NA casters doing the bigger games.
The style they provided is entertaining and, truthfully, needed. I just wish there was more balance to it to provide more insight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. While entertaining it's slightly annoying when there isn't some analysis and strategic depth involved in some of the casting.
I thought Hugh and Wasabi did a fine job of this in last night's matchup between Nexzil and Damage Networks (http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/359022270). Using Gir's categories, Hugh did mostly play-by-play while Wasabi filled the color role, which is probably the best way to organize it (e.g. the streamer is the play-by-play, the other caster is the color). Now, we can argue about how in-depth the strategy discussion should be, since its really an argument on what kind of audience you should expect in the stream. Make it too deep and you lose the lesser experienced NS2 viewers, but make it too light and you bore the more experienced ones.
An analogy for football would be the difference between discussing the importance in having a good offensive line for quarterback protection (too light) vs talking about how specific recruiting decisions impact the current offensive line (too deep).
Also agree that it depends on the audience.
I can imagine that live streamers are there for action so you can focus more on PBP
Those looking at strat might not need the live action, so maybe some editing and thoughts added after the game?
It is definitely true that due to the nature of ns (multi-front action) its tough to find a spot to fit it in, but with some practice I think it can be done.
WasabiOne and Talutha are incredibly nice guys, and Talutha is unbelievably patient as I've spent many a time being a bit of a jerk on his server so this isn't an ill-spirited critique. They're both really entertaining guys and I don't mind watching them at all. I just can't but notice it's a consistent theme among the NA casters (and they're the two notable ones, so they get called out unfortunately) is that there is very little, if any, focus or understanding as to strategies in the game. I can cite a numerous examples: not pointing out any marine tech [armor first], not pointing out it nearly took Duplex 3 1/2 minutes to get their second RT up because of arc's pressure, focusing on the pressure on the Hive but not commenting on the equally important fact that allowed arc to get the Crevice RT down then go work on the Atrium RT while they finished the hive RT.. Arc took all Alien RTs within 30 seconds because of well timed pressure as a team. That is so spectacular from a strategic point and from a viewer point, I think it's a shame those nuanced details are rarely, if ever, commented on.
Its not my point to critique missed things, as that is unfair, will always happen and watching a replay is drastically different. I guess I just lament the fact there is little focus on the strategic aspects of the game by any of the NA casters doing the bigger games.
The style they provided is entertaining and, truthfully, needed. I just wish there was more balance to it to provide more insight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I typically comment on the strategy the whole time. From the very beginning I can usually say what the strategy they're going to use is and whether or not it will work. For example if I see the marines on tram go straight from shipping to hub and hold it down, I can see they're going to do an arc strategy. I'm not a big fan of how the same guys tend to monopolize all the casting to be honest though.
It would be great to see the excitement come at that level, rather than the "oh noeeeeees" level! :P
That said, I enjoyed the game and appreciate the coverage.
A link to any particularly good casts from him would be great (I try providing color when casting with Wasabi and any good examples people point out are a great way to learn). I'm also not saying that their isn't room for further color in NS2 casting (Grissi was doing a good job providing some in the Arc v Duplex twitch stream today), but that too much color can risk losing people not familiar enough with the game.
Of course, providing color in a way understandable to all NS2 viewers is the holy grail of casting we all aspire too.
Actually, that cast was one of the main problems I had with the current casting style... When Nexzil dropped 2nd Hive, Hugh asked "So do you think they are going to Shade hive or Shift?" and Wasabi goes "ehh... I'm not sure, I think they'll go Shift hive to get Celerity and Adrenaline" Ignoring the fact that it's truly not a question in competitive play, it's frustrating because there is so much room to expand to the viewers, especially the casual ones, why no one goes Shade hive second or why Adrenaline won't be grabbed.
That's a truly minor example, but it's actually one of many that started me thinking about any good, consistent play-by-play casters currently out there that accurately present and breakdown competitive play. There is plenty of color, little depth. Even those that accurately call what they're seeing on the screen (Talutha does a stand up job for calling what he's seeing directly) rarely do much to point out the impacts of what they're seeing across the map.
I'd love to try my hand at casting myself, not because I feel I'd do a better job, I just feel I (or anyone with an eye for the depth) would be able to provide a lot of insight that is missing. That being said, the casters invest a lot of their time into their streams (something I don't want to sound like I'm taking away from), developing their following and getting into the position to be streaming matches. That's not something I'd want to partake myself as I commit most of my free time to playing, as is.
I just hope some constructive criticism can help correct a glaring problem with the current casters.
I was concerned I was coming off as an ###### to two people I have zero problems with, so I messaged several people to give me feedback on my post and all were in agreement with the spirit of my message, so I know I'm not alone in my critique
I actually feel NS2 is in a pretty good position, casting wise, for a fairly obscure indie game. On one end of the spectrum you have Hugh who some may malign but I think he's pretty entertaining personally and he racks up a lot of views for a very underground competitive scene. Plus of course he's got a great accent. Then on the other hand you have people like blind and there are a few others out there who are quite knowledgeable and go into depth in their casting. So you can have your cake and eat it too.
As for Day[9], yes it is true he is an excellent caster who knows his sh*t inside out but I personally find his enthusiasm a bit overbearing at times.
Even in pro sports I find a lot of the commentators/analysts are either generic/dull, or know-nothings. It's not so easy this casting business...
Thanks for your recommendation. I actually am familiar with blind and his casting work.
My point was more on the NA side. The dominating casting style is little depth, lots of color.
Criticism is fine, I just don't think the NA side of NS2 casting is as bad as people seem to think it is regarding commentary depth. Here's another <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=127403&view=findpost&p=2064656" target="_blank">example of NA casting</a> (for the All-In vs Inversion Semi-finals featuring Virsoul and Bitey) with much color. Hugh and Wasabi may have slipped up on occasion, but most casters do and I find that to be the exception rather than the rule with their casting.
I find the bigger problem in NS2 casting is capturing the best action. Its a notoriously difficult task as your trying to analyze the situation (to find the best action), move to that spot, and comment on it all pretty much as the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=2064687:date=Jan 21 2013, 10:52 PM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Jan 21 2013, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're never gonna get in depth/high level casting explaining strategies and predicting what's going to happen next and etc unless the casters themselves have the knowledge deep enough to understand the game. The best casters are almost always the people who either once were or currently are high level (or somewhat close to it) players. There's a clear lack of that in almost all the na casts. As an example, I haven't ever seen a cast from locklear or virsoul before but I would recommend those over anything hugh or wasabi cast easily, because they play above pub level and understand the game much deeper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comp play experience does help (just as being a former coach or player is useful for football commentating), but its not the only way. Both blind and ryne do a good job providing color depth and neither play NS2 competitively afaik. I find simply watching and/or casting multiple high-level comp matches provides a similarly useful background.
Yeah, sorry, I edited to clarify.
Would love to see more casters as there were many more ENSL matches that were played than those that were casted. It'd be great to get at least 2-3 casted ENSL matches a week in season 2.
That's probably a big portion of it as well, to be truthful. I suspect that may be part of my underlying issue, the more I think about it.
<!--quoteo(post=2064691:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:54 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 22 2013, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Criticism is fine, I just don't think the NA side of NS2 casting is as bad as people seem to think it is regarding commentary depth. Here's another <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=127403&view=findpost&p=2064656" target="_blank">example of NA casting</a> (for the All-In vs Inversion Semi-finals) with much color. Hugh and Wasabi may have slipped up on occasion, but most casters do and I find that to be the exception rather than the rule with their casting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That actually illustrates what Chicken said previously (Edit: That is Virsoul and Bitey casting). It's not that it is bad, it's just constantly trending in the wrong direction. Also, of course Hugh and Wasabi may have slipped up. That happens. I'm not faulting errors, I'm faulting lack of understanding or explanation of the overwhelming strategic elements this game offers.
<!--quoteo(post=2064691:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:54 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 22 2013, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find the bigger problem in NS2 casting is capturing the best action. Its a notoriously difficult task as your trying to analyze the situation (to find the best action), move to that spot, and comment on it all pretty much as the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't disagree.
FYI, ScardyBob, I always felt you were a good balance to WasabiOne's style, when you two dual cast, as you provided some of the strategic depth that seems to be lacking in the color sometimes. I'm not the only one who has expressed that by the way.
There isn't much strategic depth in the game to talk about. Haahaa, I kid.
Not really though...