ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Not really. Its more of a symptom of whose going to win rather than the cause. Specifically, the more skilled team is likely to both win and hold central drilling, but not necessarily win by holding central drilling.
Maybe. I tend to think central drilling on mineshaft and lava on refinery are bad double res spots because they are both a nightmare for marines. Theres a lot of vertical space and multiple enterences but very few clear lines of sight.
Central isn't as bad because at least marines can also make use of the high ground on the walkways but the high ground in lava is only usefull to aliens because of the lines of fire and the position of the resource points and alien spawns.
Marines shouldn't be able to basically "own" 2 locations by just taking over 1 location. If marines have Central , they will always have Deposit. If marines have Central, they get 3 RT's and 1 Tech point.
ive only seen one or 2 people arc deposit from central besides myself, i remember comming and i was like is it possible and the whole team was going crazy, it was tough since i only built one and it was a bigger setup with crags and such and then i had to keep making more till i had 3 and we took deposit
that strategy only works if you have a decent marine team that can get central
I don't mind double nodes like central drilling where the nodes are spread out and it is hard to defend. However I'm not a fan of double nodes like Nano in Veil. It's basically an alien gift, just as Lava Falls was before they split those up. Side by side nodes aren't what I consider balanced, since they almost always are situated where it's an alien freebie.
The problem isn't simply about being able to arc through walls, it's that the place that you can arc from is desirable to hold even without the arcs. Two birds with one stone, actually 3 or 4 if you think about it. If central had no RTs for example, than taking and holding it would be just for arcs meaning the marine team would be dedicating its resources simply to taking out deposit. With the RTs there there is more than enough reason to take it even without the arc angle.
Make shade's ink cloud do what its supposed to and I think central will be balanced.
Taking it will mean marines have a harder time preventing aliens from getting 3 hives, providing aliens suffer the temporary set back of taking shade hive as one of there first 2 options.
<!--quoteo(post=2064618:date=Jan 21 2013, 11:38 PM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 21 2013, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem isn't simply about being able to arc through walls, it's that the place that you can arc from is desirable to hold even without the arcs. Two birds with one stone, actually 3 or 4 if you think about it. If central had no RTs for example, than taking and holding it would be just for arcs meaning the marine team would be dedicating its resources simply to taking out deposit. With the RTs there there is more than enough reason to take it even without the arc angle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To put things into perspective
In docking they Removed the RT in the center of the map while in mineshaft, there are 2 RTs there :|
I have NEVER felt that Central is too important. Ok, the ARC thing should be fixed by increasing the distance a little (so you have to ARC from Brew Room), but even with ARCing from Central there's no real problem in games. Also Central is a great location for Aliens to attack... multiple levels, short lines of sight, many entrances.
In fact, from games, it seems Central is the least priority location on the map. Just because it is so easily attacked from both sides. Which as a double node, it should be.
<!--quoteo(post=2064762:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:00 AM:name=hozz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hozz @ Jan 22 2013, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have NEVER felt that Central is too important. Ok, the ARC thing should be fixed by increasing the distance a little (so you have to ARC from Brew Room), but even with ARCing from Central there's no real problem in games. Also Central is a great location for Aliens to attack... multiple levels, short lines of sight, many entrances.
In fact, from games, it seems Central is the least priority location on the map. Just because it is so easily attacked from both sides. Which as a double node, it should be.
Everything is good:-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually central is pretty tough for aliens. They only really have access through brew room and they have to deal with a wide open area to get to the marine base with no way out except through that same open area. Meanwhile marines can actually shoot from above on the catwalks which aliens have trouble getting to without being shot or maneuvering around. Even lerks can't really handle those catwalks.
<!--quoteo(post=2064762:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:00 PM:name=hozz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hozz @ Jan 22 2013, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have NEVER felt that Central is too important. Ok, the ARC thing should be fixed by increasing the distance a little (so you have to ARC from Brew Room), but even with ARCing from Central there's no real problem in games. Also Central is a great location for Aliens to attack... multiple levels, short lines of sight, many entrances.
In fact, from games, it seems Central is the least priority location on the map. Just because it is so easily attacked from both sides. Which as a double node, it should be.
Everything is good:-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two kinds of marine commanders don't go directly to central drilling. Either they are the very new commanders, that don't know that its the easy win location, or they are the very experienced commanders, that do know that its an easy win location, and don't want to be lame. Even if you simply put all your effort into defending central and only central, never putting up a phasegate anywhere else, the aliens would never take operations. Its simply too big a risk if marines are in drilling. If marines are in operations, then drilling is less of a risk, but not much less.
Take central, put everything you have into defending it, and the aliens will <b>never </b>get 3 hives. Two hive aliens, combined with 3 locations that are relatively extremely difficult for the siege breakers (onos and gorge) to attack, gives you a severely one sided map. I struggle to think of times that I've lost as comm on mineshaft for marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2064775:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:33 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 22 2013, 03:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two kinds of marine commanders don't go directly to central drilling. Either they are the very new commanders, that don't know that its the easy win location, or they are the very experienced commanders, that do know that its an easy win location, and don't want to be lame. Even if you simply put all your effort into defending central and only central, never putting up a phasegate anywhere else, the aliens would never take operations. Its simply too big a risk if marines are in drilling. If marines are in operations, then drilling is less of a risk, but not much less.
Take central, put everything you have into defending it, and the aliens will <b>never </b>get 3 hives. Two hive aliens, combined with 3 locations that are relatively extremely difficult for the siege breakers (onos and gorge) to attack, gives you a severely one sided map. I struggle to think of times that I've lost as comm on mineshaft for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could get repair, maybe. Of course if marines are smart and they take central they wont be wasting time on deposit so they get repair easy.
<!--quoteo(post=2064638:date=Jan 22 2013, 07:01 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 22 2013, 07:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make shade's ink cloud do what its supposed to and I think central will be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ THIS! But probably whips grenade whacking needs to be toned down a bit when this is back in. (reflecting 80% of the incoming grenades would be fair enough I think.)
On the topic: The high ceiling in central does balance the double res relatively fine. But in general: There should be no ARC-place where aliens need more than 5 seconds to move from the target area of the ARCs to the ARCs itself. They can make to much damage to fast to be this inaccessible for aliens.
The ARC's shouldn't be able to hit Deposit from Central Drilling, I agree. I do like maps with double res nodes but sometimes it makes map control a little too easy.
<!--quoteo(post=2064405:date=Jan 21 2013, 03:54 PM:name=Solarity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solarity @ Jan 21 2013, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a place with two res nodes and the ability to deny a hive location might make this location a little unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue that it is more important for the marines to take and hold any double res spot than it is for aliens; as long as the marines can hold two tech points as well. Many games are lost for aliens when they focus on a double res spot over a tech point. Marines have enough trouble holding res nodes, letting them hold a double allows them to concentrate their defenses much more.
Basically if marines hold central then they win the game. If aliens hold central then they win the game. The reason for this is because of the amount of space it controls, if you hold central + 2 tech points you automatically have 5 res nodes the entire game non of which are easy to harass, with a 6th that is pretty easy to hold as well. Compound this with the fact that you can potentially ARC deposit from that location and you can see why marines win if they hold cetral. Marines with 5-6 res nodes all game are going to win unless they are absolutely horrible.
So the obvious conclusion is that aliens have to hold central or at least deny it or marines win - thus central becomes the key and any experienced players on both teams will go straight to central every game.
Yes central is important. I would say its extremely important.
As marines you want to deny the alien presence there so they don't get res and you want to obtain it because it makes a great staging point to harass deposit, sorting and central drilling RT.
As aliens it is important more so to deny the marines presence there then it is to get the res. Its nice for the res but you cannot let marines have it if you intend to drop deposit.
I don't understand why that res node got moved from the east side to right next to deposit so it can be sieged down by marines in deposit, worse case scenario.
It makes the whole half of that area in central completely useless, I haven't stepped foot in it since the RT changed, it's 20-30 m of dead zone.
Damnit, if we listen to all those unbalanced threads we're going to end with maps / features with no personnality, no taste.
Some maps have something special, they may favour of one side ? Good ! You don't choose always the place where you are going to fight. Some are good to you, some are not. Do your best.
Central is fine. It is .. central so yes quite strategic. So is crossroad, although it has only one res, it is still a communication node.
Nanogrid is a 2 res central place but not a communication node. That make it interesting to deal with in another way. Aliens can easily build in nano at start, but later marines can cut it off, siege it, go around it .. etc. A very interesting place indeed.
You might do not want to control these places, but what you don't want is to watch the other team control them without reacting.
<!--quoteo(post=2065003:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:52 PM:name=Wake)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wake @ Jan 22 2013, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damnit, if we listen to all those unbalanced threads we're going to end with maps / features with no personnality, no taste.
Some maps have something special, they may favour of one side ? Good ! You don't choose always the place where you are going to fight. Some are good to you, some are not. Do your best.
Central is fine. It is .. central so yes quite strategic. So is crossroad, although it has only one res, it is still a communication node.
Nanogrid is a 2 res central place but not a communication node. That make it interesting to deal with in another way. Aliens can easily build in nano at start, but later marines can cut it off, siege it, go around it .. etc. A very interesting place indeed.
You might do not want to control these places, but what you don't want is to watch the other team control them without reacting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think 'flavor' involves favoring one side or the other.
lets take nano for an example. i'd say, its double is nice and balanced. easy for aliens to take, easy for marines to cut off, easy for aliens to rush, easy for marines to arc, easy for aliens to bile-bomb.
rush distances are enough that the non-techpoint rts can be harassed by lone skulks, and enough that PGs give a significant mobility advantage at the tech points. in addition, the cyst paths are limited enough that cyst chain harass is a very real problem.
i mean, some maps seem too small for aliens to harass properly and much much much too small for marines to harass properly. they just feel, less fun for both sides.
<!--quoteo(post=2065003:date=Jan 22 2013, 09:52 PM:name=Wake)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wake @ Jan 22 2013, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damnit, if we listen to all those unbalanced threads we're going to end with maps / features with no personnality, no taste.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, a lot of the personality NS maps had went out the window with the extreme sense of symmetry that has been introduced. Basically, if a strat will work in one place on a map, it will work anywhere. No more specific tactics for specific parts of a map, because now everything is the same.
A bit sad really, but hopefully some custom maps can solve that!
People have touched on this issue, but haven't really hammered it home very well.
Central drilling IS the best possible Marines location to hold. If you can stop the aliens cold in Drilling and Deposit with ARC's, you hold two Resource Nodes for sure and <i>possibly</i> a resource node in deposit that you probably won't need. Legitimately you should also be holding Gap, Pilot, and Repair giving you <i>at minimum</i> five towers. With Repair Room being one sprint away for Marines, and Deposit locked down from Central, you've set yourself up for an easy win. Especially since Central allows you to keep up enough pressure to ensure there are no aliens with the time to drop your vulnerable, unguarded side nodes. If they try it, there's a good chance your whole team can break through and nail a hive at the cost of perhaps one or two extractors.
You can waltz right in and kill two alien harvesters that are basically impossible to defend for the other team while holding more of them all the while. (Specifically Crusher and Cave) After all, every hallway that leads to alien territory from Central is a straight shot with no cover. (Specifically, Brew Room and Cart Tunnel)
It is the PREMIER lame location for Marines to rush at the beginning of every Mineshaft map rotation. I cry every time I see people wasting their time rushing to Deposit. Why rush Deposit, when you can rush Drilling and own Deposit by proxy? The double node is both the reason to go there and the icing on the cake.
I agree that taking away such exploitative sections of maps changes the 'personality' of a map, but to be honest is there really any other strategy you will ever <i>need</i> beyond take Drilling first and charge to Sorting? You can repeatedly kill the resource node in Crusher and Cavern to really drive home the point that Aliens are doomed, and the Exo march into Cave hive will be glorious since there is <i>not a damn thing to hide behind or drop from</i>.
So really, in closing, Central Drilling is amazingly over powered as a location for Marines. That being said, it will require a Marines team that actually listens to successfully hold it for that win. With there being a veritable ton of Marines that derp into walls and fall to their doom, let alone survive contact with the enemy, you'll find varied success with it.
(Oh, almost forgot, it's even better when you troll the alien commander into dropping the Deposit hive while you own drilling. It's a free -40 T.Res and you would be utterly surprised how often they will do so after they're desperate.)
DISCLAIMER:
All of this being said, Mineshaft is still fun precisely because you know exactly what a smart Marines team will do. If they don't do the smart thing, as Alien Commander you already know you'll probably win. If you hold Central as Aliens, it means the Marines were terribad or trying something snazzy that will probably fail. Handing Central to Aliens will be the downfall of even intermediate Marines teams, as you will be limited to two viable avenues of approach to no-doubt heavily defended hives. Any smart alien commander will have a shift in central to make sure they have a forward location to guard both the aforementioned approaches and to keep up pressure. Essentially, Central wins the map to whoever holds it successfully even <i>without</i> the double node.
EDIT: Wow I used the wrong hive names so many times...
Comments
Central isn't as bad because at least marines can also make use of the high ground on the walkways but the high ground in lava is only usefull to aliens because of the lines of fire and the position of the resource points and alien spawns.
edit, and the only way to fix it without nerfing would be a map restructuring.
Marines shouldn't be able to basically "own" 2 locations by just taking over 1 location. If marines have Central , they will always have Deposit. If marines have Central, they get 3 RT's and 1 Tech point.
that strategy only works if you have a decent marine team that can get central
Taking it will mean marines have a harder time preventing aliens from getting 3 hives, providing aliens suffer the temporary set back of taking shade hive as one of there first 2 options.
To put things into perspective
In docking they Removed the RT in the center of the map while in mineshaft, there are 2 RTs there :|
Also Central is a great location for Aliens to attack... multiple levels, short lines of sight, many entrances.
In fact, from games, it seems Central is the least priority location on the map. Just because it is so easily attacked from both sides. Which as a double node, it should be.
Everything is good:-)
Also Central is a great location for Aliens to attack... multiple levels, short lines of sight, many entrances.
In fact, from games, it seems Central is the least priority location on the map. Just because it is so easily attacked from both sides. Which as a double node, it should be.
Everything is good:-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually central is pretty tough for aliens. They only really have access through brew room and they have to deal with a wide open area to get to the marine base with no way out except through that same open area. Meanwhile marines can actually shoot from above on the catwalks which aliens have trouble getting to without being shot or maneuvering around. Even lerks can't really handle those catwalks.
Also Central is a great location for Aliens to attack... multiple levels, short lines of sight, many entrances.
In fact, from games, it seems Central is the least priority location on the map. Just because it is so easily attacked from both sides. Which as a double node, it should be.
Everything is good:-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two kinds of marine commanders don't go directly to central drilling. Either they are the very new commanders, that don't know that its the easy win location, or they are the very experienced commanders, that do know that its an easy win location, and don't want to be lame. Even if you simply put all your effort into defending central and only central, never putting up a phasegate anywhere else, the aliens would never take operations. Its simply too big a risk if marines are in drilling. If marines are in operations, then drilling is less of a risk, but not much less.
Take central, put everything you have into defending it, and the aliens will <b>never </b>get 3 hives. Two hive aliens, combined with 3 locations that are relatively extremely difficult for the siege breakers (onos and gorge) to attack, gives you a severely one sided map. I struggle to think of times that I've lost as comm on mineshaft for marines.
Take central, put everything you have into defending it, and the aliens will <b>never </b>get 3 hives. Two hive aliens, combined with 3 locations that are relatively extremely difficult for the siege breakers (onos and gorge) to attack, gives you a severely one sided map. I struggle to think of times that I've lost as comm on mineshaft for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could get repair, maybe. Of course if marines are smart and they take central they wont be wasting time on deposit so they get repair easy.
^ THIS! But probably whips grenade whacking needs to be toned down a bit when this is back in. (reflecting 80% of the incoming grenades would be fair enough I think.)
On the topic: The high ceiling in central does balance the double res relatively fine. But in general: There should be no ARC-place where aliens need more than 5 seconds to move from the target area of the ARCs to the ARCs itself. They can make to much damage to fast to be this inaccessible for aliens.
I would argue that it is more important for the marines to take and hold any double res spot than it is for aliens; as long as the marines can hold two tech points as well. Many games are lost for aliens when they focus on a double res spot over a tech point. Marines have enough trouble holding res nodes, letting them hold a double allows them to concentrate their defenses much more.
So the obvious conclusion is that aliens have to hold central or at least deny it or marines win - thus central becomes the key and any experienced players on both teams will go straight to central every game.
As marines you want to deny the alien presence there so they don't get res and you want to obtain it because it makes a great staging point to harass deposit, sorting and central drilling RT.
As aliens it is important more so to deny the marines presence there then it is to get the res. Its nice for the res but you cannot let marines have it if you intend to drop deposit.
It makes the whole half of that area in central completely useless, I haven't stepped foot in it since the RT changed, it's 20-30 m of dead zone.
Some maps have something special, they may favour of one side ? Good !
You don't choose always the place where you are going to fight. Some are good to you, some are not. Do your best.
Central is fine. It is .. central so yes quite strategic.
So is crossroad, although it has only one res, it is still a communication node.
Nanogrid is a 2 res central place but not a communication node. That make it interesting to deal with in another way.
Aliens can easily build in nano at start, but later marines can cut it off, siege it, go around it .. etc. A very interesting place indeed.
You might do not want to control these places, but what you don't want is to watch the other team control them without reacting.
Some maps have something special, they may favour of one side ? Good !
You don't choose always the place where you are going to fight. Some are good to you, some are not. Do your best.
Central is fine. It is .. central so yes quite strategic.
So is crossroad, although it has only one res, it is still a communication node.
Nanogrid is a 2 res central place but not a communication node. That make it interesting to deal with in another way.
Aliens can easily build in nano at start, but later marines can cut it off, siege it, go around it .. etc. A very interesting place indeed.
You might do not want to control these places, but what you don't want is to watch the other team control them without reacting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think 'flavor' involves favoring one side or the other.
lets take nano for an example. i'd say, its double is nice and balanced. easy for aliens to take, easy for marines to cut off, easy for aliens to rush, easy for marines to arc, easy for aliens to bile-bomb.
rush distances are enough that the non-techpoint rts can be harassed by lone skulks, and enough that PGs give a significant mobility advantage at the tech points. in addition, the cyst paths are limited enough that cyst chain harass is a very real problem.
i mean, some maps seem too small for aliens to harass properly and much much much too small for marines to harass properly. they just feel, less fun for both sides.
To be honest, a lot of the personality NS maps had went out the window with the extreme sense of symmetry that has been introduced. Basically, if a strat will work in one place on a map, it will work anywhere. No more specific tactics for specific parts of a map, because now everything is the same.
A bit sad really, but hopefully some custom maps can solve that!
Central drilling IS the best possible Marines location to hold. If you can stop the aliens cold in Drilling and Deposit with ARC's, you hold two Resource Nodes for sure and <i>possibly</i> a resource node in deposit that you probably won't need. Legitimately you should also be holding Gap, Pilot, and Repair giving you <i>at minimum</i> five towers. With Repair Room being one sprint away for Marines, and Deposit locked down from Central, you've set yourself up for an easy win. Especially since Central allows you to keep up enough pressure to ensure there are no aliens with the time to drop your vulnerable, unguarded side nodes. If they try it, there's a good chance your whole team can break through and nail a hive at the cost of perhaps one or two extractors.
You can waltz right in and kill two alien harvesters that are basically impossible to defend for the other team while holding more of them all the while. (Specifically Crusher and Cave) After all, every hallway that leads to alien territory from Central is a straight shot with no cover. (Specifically, Brew Room and Cart Tunnel)
It is the PREMIER lame location for Marines to rush at the beginning of every Mineshaft map rotation. I cry every time I see people wasting their time rushing to Deposit. Why rush Deposit, when you can rush Drilling and own Deposit by proxy? The double node is both the reason to go there and the icing on the cake.
I agree that taking away such exploitative sections of maps changes the 'personality' of a map, but to be honest is there really any other strategy you will ever <i>need</i> beyond take Drilling first and charge to Sorting? You can repeatedly kill the resource node in Crusher and Cavern to really drive home the point that Aliens are doomed, and the Exo march into Cave hive will be glorious since there is <i>not a damn thing to hide behind or drop from</i>.
So really, in closing, Central Drilling is amazingly over powered as a location for Marines. That being said, it will require a Marines team that actually listens to successfully hold it for that win. With there being a veritable ton of Marines that derp into walls and fall to their doom, let alone survive contact with the enemy, you'll find varied success with it.
(Oh, almost forgot, it's even better when you troll the alien commander into dropping the Deposit hive while you own drilling. It's a free -40 T.Res and you would be utterly surprised how often they will do so after they're desperate.)
DISCLAIMER:
All of this being said, Mineshaft is still fun precisely because you know exactly what a smart Marines team will do. If they don't do the smart thing, as Alien Commander you already know you'll probably win. If you hold Central as Aliens, it means the Marines were terribad or trying something snazzy that will probably fail. Handing Central to Aliens will be the downfall of even intermediate Marines teams, as you will be limited to two viable avenues of approach to no-doubt heavily defended hives. Any smart alien commander will have a shift in central to make sure they have a forward location to guard both the aforementioned approaches and to keep up pressure. Essentially, Central wins the map to whoever holds it successfully even <i>without</i> the double node.
EDIT: Wow I used the wrong hive names so many times...