238 Shotgun changes on the Balance workshop mod

rantology

<div class="IPBDescription">Please test it out in your scrim/PCWs!</div>As the title says, a new symmetrical Shotgun spread/pattern has been released on <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=108447514" target="_blank">Flayra's Balance Mod</a>. It needs extensive testing to spot any issues that may arise from it, so if you are feeling adventurous it would be very helpful if the competitive community could play with these changes while practicing and post feedback.

For reference:

<a href="http://i.imgur.com/fjeQfHl.jpg" target="_blank">old spread</a>

<a href="http://i.imgur.com/NV2OvPk.jpg" target="_blank">new spread</a>

Locklear

yay.

nexzil server for gathers & scrims is now running the mod!

Canucck

What's the base dmg now? 11?

Locklear

"kShotgunDamage = 11
kShotgunDamageType = kDamageType.Normal
kShotgunClipSize = 8
kShotgunBulletsPerShot = 15
kShotgunRange = 30"

Total being 165 damage at Weapons Level 0.

GORGEous

(this is all theoretical and mathematical speculation)


Current shotgun (17x10):
Number of pellets needed to kill vanilla skulk (# for carapace skulk) = percentage of pellets that need to hit to kill the skulk (percentage of pellets for cara skulk)
w0 - 6 (8) = 60% (80%)
w1 - 5 (7) = 50% (70%)
w2 - 5 (7) = 50% (70%)
w3 - 5 (6) = 50% (60%)

b238 shotgun (11x15):
w0 - 9 (12) = 60% (80%)
w1 - 8 (11) = 53% (73%)
w2 - 7 (10) = 47% (67%)
w3 - 7 (10) = 47% (67%)


The nerfs:
Purely damage wise, it is a slight nerf (obviously, 170 -> 165 damage). In regards to spread, it is also a nerf (kspread range 45 -> 8 is not fully compensated for by the closer plot in the LUA). I think kspread range is the distance it takes to reach the distance represented by the coordinates in the LUA. IE if a pellet has (3,3) plot with kspread 45 then at 45 distance, the pellet will be (3,3) from origin. (?) If at 15 distance, it would be (1,1) from origin. Please correct me if this is not how shotgun spread is calculated, but it seems to resemble in game testing of the new shotgun... that it has a slightly larger spread as shown in rantology's pictures.

The buffs:
The primary buff is that the shotgun should be more consistent. 13 out of the 15 pellets are perfectly symmetrical along the x-axis, y-axis, and x=y axis. The last two are parallel with the x=y axis. So the impact of the random rotation of this fixed spread will be significantly less than the old shotgun which saw no symmetry. A pellet count increase of 50% (10 -> 15) will further increase consistency.

I also think it is important to consider the tight grouping of the 5 inner pellets. 1 pellet will always shoot nearly-directly in the middle of your crosshair. So, up to max range (30?), you will always land 1 pellet if your crosshair is on the target. This is not the case for the old shotgun. The other 4 surrounding pellets will provide a more consistent inner circle of fire. If you look at the old spread, the inner circle of pellets formed a ~230 degree arc, of which the other 130 degrees were barren. So you may occasionally get 40% of your pellets on target from across the room, but the same shot rotated differently would yield 10-20% of your pellets -- a huge source if inconsistency if you've ever been shotty sniped across the room. The new shotgun's inner circle of pellets will provide a more consistent damage number. I feel like this is beneficial to both shotgun and anti-shotgun gameplay.


The question that needs to be answered:
Will the benefits from increased consistency maintain the value of the shotgun despite the damage and spread nerf?

xDragon

Its important to realize your talking (atleast with the old spread) about 10 bullets. Getting a different rotation on that spread would be the difference between 1 extra pellet in all but the most extreme cases. There are drawbacks to a perfectly (or near perfectly) linear spread, the largest of those coming from the fact that it marginalizes aim requirements (even shooting dead center on a skulk results in misses, so shooting infront or behind isnt as impacting). The NS1 spread used fully random cones for the pellets (5 at a smaller spread, 5 at a larger spread). This split-spread is part of what made the shotgun require such skill - you had to be very accurate on skulks to land enough pellets for a 1 hit, but it wasnt too wide that there were lots of misses on larger lifeforms. I have nothing against a spread that is more consistent, but making the spread perfectly linear across the entire effective cone of the shotgun does not make it a higher skill weapon, it just lowers the skill floor and skill ceiling.

GORGEous

I don't disagree with some of what you've said, but I feel like you've framed it rather unfairly. You're effectively saying that random = harder therefore random = skillful, but I don't think random based skill is the kind of skill you want in a 'competitive' shooter game.

I also think you're downplaying how much the old rotated spread could vary. In some situations, the rotation may only impact the bullets missed by 1, but it is clearly a random spread. For example, if you miss slightly and the target is occupies a square (0,0) to (+/-4, +/-4) If it is rotated to the first quadrant ( (0,0) -> (+4,+4) ) then you've landed 3 pellets, 2nd quadrant is 5, 3rd quadrant is 3, 4th quadrant is 2. With this example you're bouncing between 2 and 5 pellets based purely on random rotation. Now this is obviously anecdotal and seemingly the purpose of a random spread, so I'll move on.

Why is this variation a good thing? You're saying it forces better aiming for a 1 shot, thus raising the skill requirement to 1 shot. The problem I have is that this can be done without the randomness by simply balancing the damage around requiring a "perfect" broadside to land the required number of pellets. You don't need random spread to enforce good aim.


I definitely agree that making it a consistent spread with no other changes would simply make it a stronger weapon -- and raise the skill floor. We have other changes, though. Damage is slightly less and spread is slightly higher. So while a more consistent spread will raise the skill floor slightly, a lower damage and higher spread will both lower the skill floor. I think you can keep the skill floor/ceiling relatively the same and still have a consistent weapon.

wiry

Pretty weird spread.

xDragon

Im not saying it needs to be random to be skillful, quite the opposite actually. Random in any game does not make for skillful play look at random crits in TF2 - but there is a difference between a shotgun that is almost entirely based on coverage, versus one that rewards you for being more precisely on target. Also the comparison to shooting targets that perfectly occupy square quadrants doesn't at all represent what your actually targeting in NS2. Ideally the spread I would be trying to describe as somewhat ideal would be most circular, with a inner cone at around 10-14 degrees and an outer cone around 16-20. This could simply comprise of 5 bullets evenly dispersed on a circle at those two points, so that the position of those bullets will be somewhat random, but the distances and overall distribution not. This would also encourage on target shots, with trailing and leading shots loosing at least half the potential spread.

GORGEous

How is that effectively any different from this new spread? If I'm at the very front or back (leading or trailing) of a skulk with my shot, I'm going to miss at least half of the spread on that skulk. You're still rewarded for skillful shooting by putting more pellets on target with a middle-of-target shot..

xDragon

Meh its really not worth trying to draw charts to show the effect, but basically will a full evenly dispersed spread you always have a decent delta that would miss on skulks anyways, so aiming dead center is not as important as with a spread that has zones.

Gamerkatze

i would preferr a circle spread and not this strange geometry thing, like a 2nd circle around the square in the middle.
dmg looks ok since its much easier now to predict where the bullets go.

wiry

<img src="http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/9/shot0012i.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

oye

Mendasp

From very quick testing it seemed like the spread is too wide now... but I haven't tested in a real match, so...

Gamerkatze

well the shotgun is supposed to be a close combat weapon and not a sniper rifle, so i think a wider spread is alright.

xDragon

Basically the spread wiry posted is more ideal, and is what I was referring to but failing to explain well.

Eißfeldt

+1 for the quake spread

Gliss

the new shotgun spread is a step in the right direction but I feel like it's far too punishing. the effective range of the shotgun was too far before, which allowed you to snipe lerks off of ceilings and land full damage shots on retreating fades. thankfully that's out, but it's replaced with the exact opposite: now it's too unforgiving to attempt to shoot if a fade is more than a foot away, so you have to wait until you're already being swiped or bitten on the enemy's client before you can safely shoot. no intelligent player is going to allow themselves to get whittled down with those fleabite shots which seems to lead to a lot of boring stalemates.

the effective range needs to be somewhere between the old spread and the balance mod's, to allow players to actually shoot at lifeforms instead of waiting until the last possible second when they're already dead IMO.

the consistency does allow aliens to know exactly how safe they are depending on their range which is a good thing, I think.

eh?

Pfft.. shotgun change is irrelevant and makes little to no difference. And doesn't really solve anything.

derWalter

<!--quoteo(post=2066341:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:14 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 25 2013, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the new shotgun spread is a step in the right direction but I feel like it's far too punishing. the effective range of the shotgun was too far before, which allowed you to snipe lerks off of ceilings and land full damage shots on retreating fades. thankfully that's out, but it's replaced with the exact opposite: now it's too unforgiving to attempt to shoot if a fade is more than a foot away, so you have to wait until you're already being swiped or bitten on the enemy's client before you can safely shoot. no intelligent player is going to allow themselves to get whittled down with those fleabite shots which seems to lead to a lot of boring stalemates.

the effective range needs to be somewhere between the old spread and the balance mod's, to allow players to actually shoot at lifeforms instead of waiting until the last possible second when they're already dead IMO.

the consistency does allow aliens to know exactly how safe they are depending on their range which is a good thing, I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sounds like a "cant have the pie and eat it" problem :/

Gliss

<!--quoteo(post=2066432:date=Jan 25 2013, 08:56 AM:name=derWalter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (derWalter @ Jan 25 2013, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sounds like a "cant have the pie and eat it" problem :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
?

ScardyBob

I second reducing the spread to be, but not exactly, like the old one. The issue is that much of the alien health/armor has been balanced with regards to the tighter spread of the old shotgun, making it a pretty big nerf regarding marine survivability vs skulks/fades unless those classes are adjusted also.