I'm personally ok with a w3 sg being able to two-shot a fade with a 100% pellet hit, since this is effectively max marine tech. Marines should be able to fight fades on equal terms in that situation. I'd be more concerned if marines could two shot fades with either w1 or w2, since that's more of the equivalent tech level marines typically have when fades first appear.
I haven't seen many full damage sg shots since B238/239 came out, so marines still need to to three-shot fades in practice.
I played a game last night where I 2 shot 3 different fades with shot gun, its actually pretty easy to 1v1 a fade when your a marine with level 3 and a shotty, personally I think fades need buff in armor and slight buff in hp
The new shotgun is powerful against skulks (as it should be) and fades, since shotguns are really the ONLY counter to fades, they SHOULD be effective against them. Any good fade would probably dodge enough shots to do some damage, and as soon as it gets hit once immediately leave anyway.
So a 20 res weapon that you can possibly recover after death should be a hard counter to a 50 res lifeform that you lose on death? That's not including the fact that it is incredibly easy to hit a point blank target. You hit them with a full blast at point blank range, they run to avoid dying, and you shoot them in the back while they're fleeing. Even if you don't kill them they'll be incredibly low on HP, allowing anyone who might come across them to easily mop them up. That's just what one good shotgunner can do. Groups are suicide for Fades now.
A 0 res lifeform is a hard counter to a 75 res mech that you lose on death, considering that a Skulk can just hang out in their blind spots to prevent them from being able to hit 'em. 'But Exos should never be alone!' So why should a Fade?
Also, it's not a 20 res weapon. A crapton of tres went into W3.
I'm personally ok with a w3 sg being able to two-shot a fade with a 100% pellet hit, since this is effectively max marine tech. Marines should be able to fight fades on equal terms in that situation. I'd be more concerned if marines could two shot fades with either w1 or w2, since that's more of the equivalent tech level marines typically have when fades first appear.
I haven't seen many full damage sg shots since B238/239 came out, so marines still need to to three-shot fades in practice.
I played a game last night where I 2 shot 3 different fades with shot gun, its actually pretty easy to 1v1 a fade when your a marine with level 3 and a shotty, personally I think fades need buff in armor and slight buff in hp
I agree first day I played I took down 4 fades (2 shotted) and 1 lerk (single shotted), its not hard to do.
Being able to 2 shot a 50 res lifeform and single shot a 30 res lifeform is absurd.
I just dont get why marines get harder to kill as time goes on but aliens get easier?
This is why people claim there is a balance issue, I really think something needs to be done to allow aliens to scale...be it hive upgrades (ie each upgraded hive grants X% increase on attack and HP/armour), lifeform upgrades or chambers.
A 50 res fade late game is almost totally useless at ending a game and this weakens the aliens ability to end a game. Yet early they can be devestating and somewhat overpowered if the marines are without tech upgrades.
Also, it's not a 20 res weapon. A crapton of tres went into W3.
As long as that's being used as an argument. Let's consider the cost of a hive, blink, crag hive, a shell and carapace. Not even counting movement upgrades here (as they don't effect the fade's hp - would be like counting armour upgrades on the marine), but thought the 2nd hive and blink were necessary, as without it the fade is severely disadvantaged.
I played a game last night where I 2 shot 3 different fades with shot gun, its actually pretty easy to 1v1 a fade when your a marine with level 3 and a shotty, personally I think fades need buff in armor and slight buff in hp
w3 shotty should be powerful, but if too many lerks/fades are dying then its fairly easy to fix with a small lerk/fade health or armor buff. I'd personally like to wait a week or two to let people adjust to the new changes before determining if too many lerks and fades are dying.
fades and lerks needed a buff even BEFORE the shotgun change, they are just so weak its silly really, lerks have an excuse, 30 res and has ability to use spikes, fades however is worse, they must be used as melee and is damn too weak to be one, at level 3 shotty I have a harder time killing skulks then I do with fades, fades are great when marines are level 0-1, once you get level 2 or 3 marines fades are damn useless most of the time.
fade 275hp 100 armor, 150 with carapace < needed to stand up 1v1 to a level 3 shotgun
lerk 150hp, 50 armor or 75, 100 carapace < or give ranged spores back
alien damage does not scale at all and I think this should change, focus is needed, its kind of annoying playing a game 3 biting every marine then level 2-3 armor comes along then all of a sudden, 4-5 bites? marine armor 3 gives an additional 60 armor to a marine while any carapace on any life form (minus onos and gorge) will gain 50 armor or less
20 for skulk
50 for fade
25 for lerk< really that's it? 25 for lerk.... I remember before lerk buff it was 25 armor stock, with carapace it was 75 giving it additional 50 armor, after the buff to stock 50 armor, why didn't they buff carapace armor to 100? its like they forgot about it
I played a game last night where I 2 shot 3 different fades with shot gun, its actually pretty easy to 1v1 a fade when your a marine with level 3 and a shotty, personally I think fades need buff in armor and slight buff in hp
w3 shotty should be powerful, but if too many lerks/fades are dying then its fairly easy to fix with a small lerk/fade health or armor buff. I'd personally like to wait a week or two to let people adjust to the new changes before determining if too many lerks and fades are dying.
I tend to agree with you. Shotguns should be powerful since it's high-risk and should be high-reward for that. It's just absurd when the envelope of combat is melee range and the Marine has the upper hand. Even just a few HP more required than two blasts put out would be groovy. Two shots for a 50 P.Res life form is just silly.
The cone on the shotgun is rather like the cone on the bitegun in concept, only the payoff is way higher for a shotgun.
Basically it's the issue of late game aliens scaling poorly, probably by design. I suppose if Marines live long enough they're just supposed to feel overpowered as the reward.
I agree first day I played I took down 4 fades (2 shotted) and 1 lerk (single shotted), its not hard to do.
Being able to 2 shot a 50 res lifeform and single shot a 30 res lifeform is absurd.
I just dont get why marines get harder to kill as time goes on but aliens get easier?
This is why people claim there is a balance issue, I really think something needs to be done to allow aliens to scale...be it hive upgrades (ie each upgraded hive grants X% increase on attack and HP/armour), lifeform upgrades or chambers.
A 50 res fade late game is almost totally useless at ending a game and this weakens the aliens ability to end a game. Yet early they can be devestating and somewhat overpowered if the marines are without tech upgrades.
A skulk can kill a JP+Flamethrower or JP+Grenade launcher, is that absurd too?
soooo many times i shoot trough aliens, who should be vaporized instead.
once uwe fixes the hitreg... we will need a big shotgun nerf.
but as the game performance sux right now,
it dosent matter that much... lets just wait for the content update
then the march hotfixing and hope for engine updates and performance
ie. hitreg, fixes.
soooo many times i shoot trough aliens, who should be vaporized instead.
once uwe fixes the hitreg... we will need a big shotgun nerf.
but as the game performance sux right now,
it dosent matter that much... lets just wait for the content update
then the march hotfixing and hope for engine updates and performance
ie. hitreg, fixes.
How bad IS hitreg right now? I often encounter similar issues where my dot cursor is over their model by about (in game) 1-3 inches but i don't hit them at all. However, I always assumed that was because I was bad/skulks were better than me.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
i've never been 2hit by a shotgun since the update, and i face alot of good players
(Scatterbrains, anyone?)
Maybe you guys are just bad fades/playing vs bad fades?
soooo many times i shoot trough aliens, who should be vaporized instead.
once uwe fixes the hitreg... we will need a big shotgun nerf.
but as the game performance sux right now,
it dosent matter that much... lets just wait for the content update
then the march hotfixing and hope for engine updates and performance
ie. hitreg, fixes.
How bad IS hitreg right now? I often encounter similar issues where my dot cursor is over their model by about (in game) 1-3 inches but i don't hit them at all. However, I always assumed that was because I was bad/skulks were better than me.
happens a lot to me to. also dot crosshair.
you can see it also a lot in vods virsoul, hugh etc.
bullets just go trough and hit the wall behind.
but to be hones, goldsource was played at 1000server fps
and 100 stable clientfps with update and cmdrate 100 without interpolation.
spark runs at 30 server fps worst 80fps at my machine
and got around 3kb out and 4kb in, while i got 10-15 at goldsource.
so it will need some time to get a hitreg like the good old goldsrc
a loooot of performance optimization needs to be done.
i would like to see the vanilla version precompiled with monster fps
and everything modded could stay as lua.
but as crysis also is completely written in lua and gets unbeliveable power out of it,
everything just depends on the brain- and manpower of uwe.
i think i remember that crytek got 3 or 5 dedicated core programmers,
who play a lot of starcraft and counterstrike as far as i remember
and around 100+ employees at all..
How bad IS hitreg right now? I often encounter similar issues where my dot cursor is over their model by about (in game) 1-3 inches but i don't hit them at all. However, I always assumed that was because I was bad/skulks were better than me.
I think it's largely dependent on game performance. If one of the players(shooter and target) has bad fps it's seriously affecting the hitreg. The other problems are mainly fixed imho. I have good fps and most of the time have no problems at all with hitreg. Only sometimes enemies kind of "stutter" slightly as they move and it's hard to hit tem. That's when they have really poor fps imho.
I don't think anybody will ever admit this officially(because it's kind of the worst thing to be on a shooter mainly based on aim)
A skulk can kill a JP+Flamethrower or JP+Grenade launcher, is that absurd too?
A marine with GL or Flamethrower isn't supposed to be by himself so that's hardly a comparison. They're support weapons. It's like saying a marine can 1v1 a gorge (granted gorges are less expensive than JP+GL or flamethrower, but they're still support).
Whilst you might rebut with 'a fade isn't supposed to get hit', sometimes not getting hit is simply unavoidable against marines with good awareness and good aim. A group of 2 such marines with a shotgun shouldn't be able to instakill a fade, especially one with carapace. Fades should at least have a fighting chance.
Wasn't it 3-4 shotgun shots in ns1? Granted they fired at a higher rate, but even with the increased survivability and focus (i.e. no need to stay in combat), fades could still be dealt to, and a group of marines with shotguns was still a deathtrap if they could aim well. Sure they can't be as powerful as they were in ns1, especially with the changes to the alien economy (nobody spending resources on structures means more people saving res for lifeforms), but to have them killable with 2 shots is an over the top nerf to their former glory.
Personally, if we're using shotgun shots as a measure, I think it should be
fade with cara - 3 full shotgun shots or maybe a tiny bit less (allow one partial, but with most of the pellets hitting)
2 full shotgun shots + maybe a little more (one partial where only a few of the pellets hit).
Even a non-cara fade shoudn't be 2-shotted IMO but should come extremely close to. I respect there's different schools of thought to the fade situation though.
A skulk can kill a JP+Flamethrower or JP+Grenade launcher, is that absurd too?
A marine with GL or Flamethrower isn't supposed to be by himself so that's hardly a comparison. They're support weapons. It's like saying a marine can 1v1 a gorge (granted gorges are less expensive than JP+GL or flamethrower, but they're still support).
Whilst you might rebut with 'a fade isn't supposed to get hit', sometimes not getting hit is simply unavoidable against marines with good awareness and good aim. A group of 2 such marines with a shotgun shouldn't be able to instakill a fade, especially one with carapace. Fades should at least have a fighting chance.
Wasn't it 3-4 shotgun shots in ns1? Granted they fired at a higher rate, but even with the increased survivability and focus (i.e. no need to stay in combat), fades could still be dealt to, and a group of marines with shotguns was still a deathtrap if they could aim well. Sure they can't be as powerful as they were in ns1, especially with the changes to the alien economy (nobody spending resources on structures means more people res for lifeforms), but to have them killable with 2 shots is an over the top nerf to their former glory.
Personally, if we're using shotgun shots as a measure, I think it should be
fade with cara - 3 full shotgun shots or maybe a tiny bit less (allow one partial, but with most of the pellets hitting)
2 full shotgun shots + maybe a little more (one partial where only a few of the pellets hit).
Even a non-cara fade shoudn't be 2-shotted IMO but should come extremely close to. I respect there's different schools of thought to the fade situation though.
Well, the problem is that how we feel about fades is REALLY anecdotal. I personally find they're the same as a shotgun: They're a waste of res for noobs but if someone knows how to play them then marines are basically GG without an equivalently skilled JP/SGer.
I've been on the receiving end of really good fades. A good fade can tear apart any type of advance or attack. 3 marines, if they're split across a room, can easily be taken apart by a decent fade one by one. 3 on 1, a decent fade will win via hit and run. That's an entire marine strike force taken out by 1 player.
If we went with your suggestion, the effective health of a face would be ~730. Congrats, your fade now officially has more health than 8 skulks or 7/11th the hp of an a3 exo with extremely fast movement. That means the moment he shows up, a fade requires ~60 bullets (730 / 12 damage) to kill assuming weapons 2 with an LMG (which is normally when fades show up). How exactly will even regular marines kill a fade then? It would go from "we have a shotgun, we can breathe easier while moving out" to "we NEED a shotgun or we're going to die from fades."
I still don't see how anyone can think fades need a buff. Decent (not even good) fades will absolutely rape a group of marines. If W3 shotgun/jp marines can't kill a fade 1v1 or 2v1 how are the marines supposed to win games? Just because they're 50 res doesn't mean they should be unstoppable. They come out at ~8 mins of game time (sometimes sooner), meaning they're a mid-late game lifeform. If you're facing end-game marines, I would say the marine should have a fair chance at killing it.
You can't have a marine team full of exos. They need to be able to kill the higher alien lifeforms without one.
That being said, I kill tons of JP/shotgun marines as fade, and I would say I'm not very good at all with fade. The fade is fine.
No matter how good a fade is, against equally competent marines he will die eventually, just a matter of time before 2-3 shells or a combo with lmgs will take him out. That's why they need a buff. 50hp extra is a good start point.
Anyone know if this shotgun change makes it a better weapon against Onos than the LMG?
I don't think so, no. Worse, actually, because the range where the pellet scatter really kicks in is SUPER low, like 20 yds and you're doing fifty damage or something. And you don't want to be that close to an Onos. Then again, chasing escaping Onoses and emptying entire shots right into their butts is probably very painful. ...until he wakes up and turns around, that is.
Anyone know if this shotgun change makes it a better weapon against Onos than the LMG?
I don't think so, no. Worse, actually, because the range where the pellet scatter really kicks in is SUPER low, like 20 yds and you're doing fifty damage or something. And you don't want to be that close to an Onos. Then again, chasing escaping Onoses and emptying entire shots right into their butts is probably very painful. ...until he wakes up and turns around, that is.
I'd still trust the LMG. It's free after all.
I feel as Onos the shotgun is very painful now. Especially running away from a JP marine as you said has become more dangerous. Also, the turning around nd killing him part is more risky too because in close combat he wont miss anymore and ~190 dmg per shot really hurts.
It's not that the shotgun is op, it's that the Lerk and the Fade were nerfed in previous versions. Lerk got slower, and Fade got weaker. Still, as it stands, Fades can still do what they need to do mid game. Personally, I'd like to see Fade get a bit beefier and a new lategame ability. I'd also like to see the jetpack become a little faster, but perhaps the problem is that hitboxes tend to lag behind your model...
I do like the new Shotgun though... mostly because I feel like a bad ass when I solo a Fade... lol
Fades don't need a buff, people playing fades need to learn not to be greedy. People assume all to often that fades should be getting the kills or doing all the damage. Well I submit that fades should be shadow stepping past taking a swipe or 2 and shadow stepping away before being mauled by a large group while the 0 res skulks come in and take the last bite or so. That's the purpose of team work and not being a glory hog trying to get all the kills.
How bad IS hitreg right now? I often encounter similar issues where my dot cursor is over their model by about (in game) 1-3 inches but i don't hit them at all. However, I always assumed that was because I was bad/skulks were better than me.
Hit Registration as in if you put a bullet into a skulk it registers as a hit is fine. "Hitreg" as in the general purpose explanation used on this forum for all weird things happening when trying to shoot a skulk obviously still has problems.
In particular, I find people saying they have poor "hitreg" typically are having problems with either
- Low fps (anything less than 30fps increases the difficulty in aiming exponentially in my experience)
- Poor server performance (turn on net_stats and check the server rate; its probably dropping below 20 frequently)
- Alien animation issues (the skulk transition between surfaces is a notorious one)
- Choke/packet loss (e.g. losing information somewhere between you and the server)
- Delayed feedback due to high ping (e.g. the 'getting killed behind a corner' issue)
I feel that fades should be able to only be 2 shot by w3 SGs when they DONT have cara, 3 with.
As far as I can see, this is the only way a fade will EVER use regen. In NS1, i felt like there was a clear tradeoff to be a regen fade or a cara fade with 2 distinct playstyles.
Cara fade could always get at least 1 kill, but had to run back to a gorge or hive after, while regen fade would wear down a group by being very effective at hit and run and never needing to go back to heal.
Regen got nerfed to oblivion again for some reason. Sure it was OP when it kicked in after 3sec and healed you up in a sec, but now it's back to the might-as-well-go-back-to-the-hive-because-zzzz -state.
Personally I think regen should be a constantly (in combat) regenerating ability, like 5% hp per sec, that way you could play with an evasive style in combat, be weaker but long lasting... Or 15% per sec if it only kicks in after combat.
but perhaps the problem is that hitboxes tend to lag behind your model...
I agree with Scardybob's post.
Lots of new PTs lately has led to lots of great new efforts to sort out hitreg issues, and if the past few changelogs are any indication, things have been successful.
So much so that lately we are having a harder time finding hit reg issues.. we have a report open right now basically serving as a catch all for anything we can find, but other than a possible slight alignment issue there's not much left.
So what I'm getting at is: if people like you have any HD videos of this stuff happening, and even better, reproduction steps, it would be highly appreciated. (the collision command showing the hitbox will be delayed behind a frame or so if multi threading is enabled, this is a side effect)
Don't clutter up this thread, if you have something, you can link it in a PM to me or open a thread in tech support.
I'm really curious if anyone can capture something that isn't what Scardybob lists above
Thanks
So after reading through the thread I decided some test were in order. Thanks Aegis!
For the purposes of the testing, we decided to shoot a fade with the shotgun at each weapon level upgrade with and without carapace at varying ranges. All tests were performed by pointing at the fades chest, holding the fire button, and I did notice different damage numbers at times although the cross hair remained stationary.
Point blank was achieved by walking into the fade and firing. With close range we wanted to be just out of easy reach so each of us had our back to either side of the doorway in cargo hive leading to Y junction. Medium range the fade stood under the vent you see when exiting cargo going to y junction and I stood at the inside edge of the doorway.
The numbers below show how many shots it took to kill the fade.
Weapon Level Point Blank Close Medium
Zero 2 3* 4
Vs Carapace 3 3 5
One 2 3* 4
Vs Carapace 3 3 5
Two 2 2 -
Vs Carapace - - -
Three 2 2 3
Vs Carapace 2 3* 4
* The close distance left the fade with a minute amount of health before the final shot kill him. We tested these at least twice each and had the same result. Lvl 0 left 11 hp after 2 shots, Lvl 1 with cara left 1 hp! I'm curious what lvl 2 would have shown but Lvl 3 left 8 hp after 2 shots.
Unfortunately I forgot to password the server after I changed the map, which caused the auto password DAKadmin plugin to remove the password I had set, and someone joined, hopped in the CC and upgraded to weapons 3. :facepalm: We just didn't feel like doing it all again for level 2 weapons, and I didn't want to download and set up stuff for recording when my pc has trouble running the game anyway.
Comments
A 0 res lifeform is a hard counter to a 75 res mech that you lose on death, considering that a Skulk can just hang out in their blind spots to prevent them from being able to hit 'em. 'But Exos should never be alone!' So why should a Fade?
Also, it's not a 20 res weapon. A crapton of tres went into W3.
Being able to 2 shot a 50 res lifeform and single shot a 30 res lifeform is absurd.
I just dont get why marines get harder to kill as time goes on but aliens get easier?
This is why people claim there is a balance issue, I really think something needs to be done to allow aliens to scale...be it hive upgrades (ie each upgraded hive grants X% increase on attack and HP/armour), lifeform upgrades or chambers.
A 50 res fade late game is almost totally useless at ending a game and this weakens the aliens ability to end a game. Yet early they can be devestating and somewhat overpowered if the marines are without tech upgrades.
As long as that's being used as an argument. Let's consider the cost of a hive, blink, crag hive, a shell and carapace. Not even counting movement upgrades here (as they don't effect the fade's hp - would be like counting armour upgrades on the marine), but thought the 2nd hive and blink were necessary, as without it the fade is severely disadvantaged.
fade 275hp 100 armor, 150 with carapace < needed to stand up 1v1 to a level 3 shotgun
lerk 150hp, 50 armor or 75, 100 carapace < or give ranged spores back
alien damage does not scale at all and I think this should change, focus is needed, its kind of annoying playing a game 3 biting every marine then level 2-3 armor comes along then all of a sudden, 4-5 bites? marine armor 3 gives an additional 60 armor to a marine while any carapace on any life form (minus onos and gorge) will gain 50 armor or less
20 for skulk
50 for fade
25 for lerk< really that's it? 25 for lerk.... I remember before lerk buff it was 25 armor stock, with carapace it was 75 giving it additional 50 armor, after the buff to stock 50 armor, why didn't they buff carapace armor to 100? its like they forgot about it
I tend to agree with you. Shotguns should be powerful since it's high-risk and should be high-reward for that. It's just absurd when the envelope of combat is melee range and the Marine has the upper hand. Even just a few HP more required than two blasts put out would be groovy. Two shots for a 50 P.Res life form is just silly.
The cone on the shotgun is rather like the cone on the bitegun in concept, only the payoff is way higher for a shotgun.
Basically it's the issue of late game aliens scaling poorly, probably by design. I suppose if Marines live long enough they're just supposed to feel overpowered as the reward.
A skulk can kill a JP+Flamethrower or JP+Grenade launcher, is that absurd too?
once they fix hitreg
soooo many times i shoot trough aliens, who should be vaporized instead.
once uwe fixes the hitreg... we will need a big shotgun nerf.
but as the game performance sux right now,
it dosent matter that much... lets just wait for the content update
then the march hotfixing and hope for engine updates and performance
ie. hitreg, fixes.
How bad IS hitreg right now? I often encounter similar issues where my dot cursor is over their model by about (in game) 1-3 inches but i don't hit them at all. However, I always assumed that was because I was bad/skulks were better than me.
(Scatterbrains, anyone?)
Maybe you guys are just bad fades/playing vs bad fades?
happens a lot to me to. also dot crosshair.
you can see it also a lot in vods virsoul, hugh etc.
bullets just go trough and hit the wall behind.
but to be hones, goldsource was played at 1000server fps
and 100 stable clientfps with update and cmdrate 100 without interpolation.
spark runs at 30 server fps worst 80fps at my machine
and got around 3kb out and 4kb in, while i got 10-15 at goldsource.
so it will need some time to get a hitreg like the good old goldsrc
a loooot of performance optimization needs to be done.
i would like to see the vanilla version precompiled with monster fps
and everything modded could stay as lua.
but as crysis also is completely written in lua and gets unbeliveable power out of it,
everything just depends on the brain- and manpower of uwe.
i think i remember that crytek got 3 or 5 dedicated core programmers,
who play a lot of starcraft and counterstrike as far as i remember
and around 100+ employees at all..
I think it's largely dependent on game performance. If one of the players(shooter and target) has bad fps it's seriously affecting the hitreg. The other problems are mainly fixed imho. I have good fps and most of the time have no problems at all with hitreg. Only sometimes enemies kind of "stutter" slightly as they move and it's hard to hit tem. That's when they have really poor fps imho.
I don't think anybody will ever admit this officially(because it's kind of the worst thing to be on a shooter mainly based on aim)
A marine with GL or Flamethrower isn't supposed to be by himself so that's hardly a comparison. They're support weapons. It's like saying a marine can 1v1 a gorge (granted gorges are less expensive than JP+GL or flamethrower, but they're still support).
Whilst you might rebut with 'a fade isn't supposed to get hit', sometimes not getting hit is simply unavoidable against marines with good awareness and good aim. A group of 2 such marines with a shotgun shouldn't be able to instakill a fade, especially one with carapace. Fades should at least have a fighting chance.
Wasn't it 3-4 shotgun shots in ns1? Granted they fired at a higher rate, but even with the increased survivability and focus (i.e. no need to stay in combat), fades could still be dealt to, and a group of marines with shotguns was still a deathtrap if they could aim well. Sure they can't be as powerful as they were in ns1, especially with the changes to the alien economy (nobody spending resources on structures means more people saving res for lifeforms), but to have them killable with 2 shots is an over the top nerf to their former glory.
Personally, if we're using shotgun shots as a measure, I think it should be
fade with cara - 3 full shotgun shots or maybe a tiny bit less (allow one partial, but with most of the pellets hitting)
2 full shotgun shots + maybe a little more (one partial where only a few of the pellets hit).
Even a non-cara fade shoudn't be 2-shotted IMO but should come extremely close to. I respect there's different schools of thought to the fade situation though.
Well, the problem is that how we feel about fades is REALLY anecdotal. I personally find they're the same as a shotgun: They're a waste of res for noobs but if someone knows how to play them then marines are basically GG without an equivalently skilled JP/SGer.
I've been on the receiving end of really good fades. A good fade can tear apart any type of advance or attack. 3 marines, if they're split across a room, can easily be taken apart by a decent fade one by one. 3 on 1, a decent fade will win via hit and run. That's an entire marine strike force taken out by 1 player.
If we went with your suggestion, the effective health of a face would be ~730. Congrats, your fade now officially has more health than 8 skulks or 7/11th the hp of an a3 exo with extremely fast movement. That means the moment he shows up, a fade requires ~60 bullets (730 / 12 damage) to kill assuming weapons 2 with an LMG (which is normally when fades show up). How exactly will even regular marines kill a fade then? It would go from "we have a shotgun, we can breathe easier while moving out" to "we NEED a shotgun or we're going to die from fades."
That's how it was in NS1. But seeing more than 1-3 Fades was pretty rare.
You can't have a marine team full of exos. They need to be able to kill the higher alien lifeforms without one.
That being said, I kill tons of JP/shotgun marines as fade, and I would say I'm not very good at all with fade. The fade is fine.
I don't think so, no. Worse, actually, because the range where the pellet scatter really kicks in is SUPER low, like 20 yds and you're doing fifty damage or something. And you don't want to be that close to an Onos. Then again, chasing escaping Onoses and emptying entire shots right into their butts is probably very painful. ...until he wakes up and turns around, that is.
I'd still trust the LMG. It's free after all.
I don't think so. As
I feel as Onos the shotgun is very painful now. Especially running away from a JP marine as you said has become more dangerous. Also, the turning around nd killing him part is more risky too because in close combat he wont miss anymore and ~190 dmg per shot really hurts.
I do like the new Shotgun though... mostly because I feel like a bad ass when I solo a Fade... lol
In particular, I find people saying they have poor "hitreg" typically are having problems with either
- Low fps (anything less than 30fps increases the difficulty in aiming exponentially in my experience)
- Poor server performance (turn on net_stats and check the server rate; its probably dropping below 20 frequently)
- Alien animation issues (the skulk transition between surfaces is a notorious one)
- Choke/packet loss (e.g. losing information somewhere between you and the server)
- Delayed feedback due to high ping (e.g. the 'getting killed behind a corner' issue)
As far as I can see, this is the only way a fade will EVER use regen. In NS1, i felt like there was a clear tradeoff to be a regen fade or a cara fade with 2 distinct playstyles.
Cara fade could always get at least 1 kill, but had to run back to a gorge or hive after, while regen fade would wear down a group by being very effective at hit and run and never needing to go back to heal.
I would REALLY like to see this dynamic again.
Personally I think regen should be a constantly (in combat) regenerating ability, like 5% hp per sec, that way you could play with an evasive style in combat, be weaker but long lasting... Or 15% per sec if it only kicks in after combat.
Now it's just poop.
Sorry for derail. >_>
Lots of new PTs lately has led to lots of great new efforts to sort out hitreg issues, and if the past few changelogs are any indication, things have been successful.
So much so that lately we are having a harder time finding hit reg issues.. we have a report open right now basically serving as a catch all for anything we can find, but other than a possible slight alignment issue there's not much left.
So what I'm getting at is: if people like you have any HD videos of this stuff happening, and even better, reproduction steps, it would be highly appreciated. (the collision command showing the hitbox will be delayed behind a frame or so if multi threading is enabled, this is a side effect)
Don't clutter up this thread, if you have something, you can link it in a PM to me or open a thread in tech support.
I'm really curious if anyone can capture something that isn't what Scardybob lists above
Thanks
For the purposes of the testing, we decided to shoot a fade with the shotgun at each weapon level upgrade with and without carapace at varying ranges. All tests were performed by pointing at the fades chest, holding the fire button, and I did notice different damage numbers at times although the cross hair remained stationary.
Point blank was achieved by walking into the fade and firing. With close range we wanted to be just out of easy reach so each of us had our back to either side of the doorway in cargo hive leading to Y junction. Medium range the fade stood under the vent you see when exiting cargo going to y junction and I stood at the inside edge of the doorway.
The numbers below show how many shots it took to kill the fade.
Weapon Level Point Blank Close Medium Zero 2 3* 4 Vs Carapace 3 3 5 One 2 3* 4 Vs Carapace 3 3 5 Two 2 2 - Vs Carapace - - - Three 2 2 3 Vs Carapace 2 3* 4* The close distance left the fade with a minute amount of health before the final shot kill him. We tested these at least twice each and had the same result. Lvl 0 left 11 hp after 2 shots, Lvl 1 with cara left 1 hp! I'm curious what lvl 2 would have shown but Lvl 3 left 8 hp after 2 shots.
Unfortunately I forgot to password the server after I changed the map, which caused the auto password DAKadmin plugin to remove the password I had set, and someone joined, hopped in the CC and upgraded to weapons 3. :facepalm: We just didn't feel like doing it all again for level 2 weapons, and I didn't want to download and set up stuff for recording when my pc has trouble running the game anyway.