Here in australia, marines win more games than aliens! Work it out, 'murica.
I occasionally try to play on EU or AUS servers and am regularly surprised by how different continents seem to play the same game differently. I never thought double arms lab rushing would be an effective strategy, until I watched marines repeatedly win on Monash back in the early B3XX's. Try that on an US server and you'd likely get crushed.
The fun part about all this is that marines are far superior to aliens on paper. Tinkering with the numbers won't do a damn thing to fix the balance due to the simple fact the flaw lies in the overall design of the alien race. Asymmetrical gameplay is fine and all, but not when one side can afford to always mass their forces as they do not need to bother with building silly things called structures. Also odd to have one side completely reliant on the commander, yet the other is free to jump out the chair whenever they please once they burn through the Tres. An extra skulk running around while marines are effectively playing man-down may be a contributing factor to the balance issue, but I suppose it's more important to tweak numbers to achieve that orgasmic 50/50 ratio.
I'm all for finding out solutions to fix the balance problem, but the continuous buff/nerf game isn't the way to go about it. Especially not when marines are already superior in almost all aspects and certainly not without taking into consideration the skill disparity that most definitely exists in pub play.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
What about decreasing build time for marines?
Seems like it would give them more forward momentum and able to respond to the other team better in the early game?
The fun part about all this is that marines are far superior to aliens on paper. Tinkering with the numbers won't do a damn thing to fix the balance due to the simple fact the flaw lies in the overall design of the alien race. Asymmetrical gameplay is fine and all, but not when one side can afford to always mass their forces as they do not need to bother with building silly things called structures. Also odd to have one side completely reliant on the commander, yet the other is free to jump out the chair whenever they please once they burn through the Tres. An extra skulk running around while marines are effectively playing man-down may be a contributing factor to the balance issue, but I suppose it's more important to tweak numbers to achieve that orgasmic 50/50 ratio.
I'm all for finding out solutions to fix the balance problem, but the continuous buff/nerf game isn't the way to go about it. Especially not when marines are already superior in almost all aspects and certainly not without taking into consideration the skill disparity that most definitely exists in pub play.
In pubs at least it's rare that the khamm spends much time out of the hive, so I don't think that's a factor, although I do agree the khamm should have more reason to work full time. Add in a permagorge to build stuff and you have two players not contributing to combat, which is not that different from the marines who divide their building time amongst the team. This to me is completely within the realm of reasonable asymmetry and by no means insurmountable for balance.
What about decreasing build time for marines?
Seems like it would give them more forward momentum and able to respond to the other team better in the early game?
Frankly, I don't know why building isn't something short like 3 seconds per structure. I can certainly appreciate the point of needing marines to build so that the comm can't just build on his own, but I always found the build times long. Is there a need to have players standing around for 15 seconds doing nothing? It never seemed very intuitive from a 'fun' standpoint. So it begs the question, does it really need to be that long? What gameplay purpose does it serve to have players standing around holding down a key for a quarter minute?
The 3 second build time for new power nodes always felt right to me. Long enough to put you at risk from an ambush, but not so long that you find yourself checking the time.
Marines just need "something" to counter against one of Aliens´ attacks.
Early-game is fine - everything basically depends who wins those early fights.Meaning people must rely on FUCKING GOD AWFUL lag compensation to hit anything.Now add that to fps drop I´m sure most gamers are experiencing(as I´ve noticed shit goes south as soon as someone bites or shoots at me).I feel like I´m living in the past.I get killed in 0,001 sec of someone barely seeing me.
Don´t reply to this, I´m obviously assuming lots of things here.I´m pissed I get killed even though I´m doing my VERY BEST and still get slaughtered because of it.I cannot counter something I can only see after it´s already happened.
Fades and Lerks - EVERY SINGLE Fade I´ve ever encountered kills with 2 swipes and never misses and never dies.I´ve never seen an unexperienced Fade.How the fuck am I suppose to counter that ? + the fact that I see when he actually hits me a century later.(My ping is 40-60 in Europe servers by the way).Jetpacks are not a counter to them, nor are shotguns nor just loads of people, nor all of them together.Why ? Because they just gtfo as soon as they see more than 1 person.Well, you say, that fade is no longer useful then.Wrong.He still kills us 1 by one.
Lerks - not really a problem, but there is nothing to do against Spores.There should be at least something that doesn´t devalue spores of course.It requires almost no skill to use spores.Just fly in when other lifeforms are attacking and press your mouse.Meanwhile every Marine has be a crackshot to kill the flying rat.Some kind of a Cerum, that the Marines could buy for 5 pres and that lasts for a temporary time or idk a gasmask, but it inhibits your view and costs more obviously.
Onos - Again, impossible to kill one even with 4 marines hitting every bullet and then chasing the damn thing.It is VERY easy to learn when to retreat and how to attack with an Onos.
Needs some temporary counter, but only in early-game, that becomes useless in mid game.ANYTHING to make the beast not be so confident to attack any number of marines.I´m thinking something like a temporary wall, that is only useful against Onos´ and that only a Commander that place(no marines needed to build it).It obviously should cost accordingly, so it should be used when the situation calls for it.
Onos - Again, impossible to kill one even with 4 marines hitting every bullet and then chasing the damn thing.It is VERY easy to learn when to retreat and how to attack with an Onos.
This is quite a dangerous perspective to have, though many players share it. Its the same reason many people think the fade is overpowered, or that it can adequately perform its task in battle.
The point is not to kill the Onos. When an Onos runs into your base, and the commander distresses, the point is not to kill the Onos. The point is to get it out of your base. 4 marines can't kill an Onos? Ok, but why does that matter? 4 marines will make an Onos run before it does damage to anything important. Onos runs in and kills 3 marines and doesn't die? Who cares, marines are free, at least the Onos is gone.
Then players start to think, well if killing it is the main objective, and I can't kill it, then why bother. I will just go do something else. And then you don't get the Onos out of your base, and it does do serious damage to important things.
Onos - Again, impossible to kill one even with 4 marines hitting every bullet and then chasing the damn thing.It is VERY easy to learn when to retreat and how to attack with an Onos.
This is quite a dangerous perspective to have, though many players share it. Its the same reason many people think the fade is overpowered, or that it can adequately perform its task in battle.
The point is not to kill the Onos. When an Onos runs into your base, and the commander distresses, the point is not to kill the Onos. The point is to get it out of your base. 4 marines can't kill an Onos? Ok, but why does that matter? 4 marines will make an Onos run before it does damage to anything important. Onos runs in and kills 3 marines and doesn't die? Who cares, marines are free, at least the Onos is gone.
Then players start to think, well if killing it is the main objective, and I can't kill it, then why bother. I will just go do something else. And then you don't get the Onos out of your base, and it does do serious damage to important things.
That is quite a dangerous perspective to have as a marine. By simply having marines in base is a loss to marines. For every second your marines are in the same room as your base, the marines are losing. If the commander has to beacon, it's even worse because tres is lost.
Let's put it this way. A jetpacker with an IMBA-nukegun flies into your base and attacks your hive (not eggs) and kills 3 skulks and flies away. And then does it again. and again. and again. What are your 3 skulks doing if they stay in your hive? They're not helping push with the rest of your skulks, that's for certain. They're not helping kill that marine in Maintenance knifing the RT. 3 players essentially gone once every 30 seconds (depending on how long it takes the nukegun reload from the armory).
O wait, now they've got an IMBA-nukgun Jper and a regular JP shotgun are in your base. Well, shit, 5 skulks better wait at the hive then.
===
It doesn't matter if marines cost 0 res if marines can't get out of base and attack aliens. Simply seeing a marine back in base is a victory for aliens (assuming they aren't noob and lose a higher level lifeform).
A fade forces 2 marines back (but normally needs 3 to drive it out depending on accuracy). An onos forces at least 3 back (and needs 4 to kill it). Manpower is lost in time chasing and dying to push back these attacks.
Onos - Again, impossible to kill one even with 4 marines hitting every bullet and then chasing the damn thing.It is VERY easy to learn when to retreat and how to attack with an Onos.
This is quite a dangerous perspective to have, though many players share it. Its the same reason many people think the fade is overpowered, or that it can adequately perform its task in battle.
The point is not to kill the Onos. When an Onos runs into your base, and the commander distresses, the point is not to kill the Onos. The point is to get it out of your base. 4 marines can't kill an Onos? Ok, but why does that matter? 4 marines will make an Onos run before it does damage to anything important. Onos runs in and kills 3 marines and doesn't die? Who cares, marines are free, at least the Onos is gone.
Then players start to think, well if killing it is the main objective, and I can't kill it, then why bother. I will just go do something else. And then you don't get the Onos out of your base, and it does do serious damage to important things.
That is quite a dangerous perspective to have as a marine. By simply having marines in base is a loss to marines. For every second your marines are in the same room as your base, the marines are losing. If the commander has to beacon, it's even worse because tres is lost.
Let's put it this way. A jetpacker with an IMBA-nukegun flies into your base and attacks your hive (not eggs) and kills 3 skulks and flies away. And then does it again. and again. and again. What are your 3 skulks doing if they stay in your hive? They're not helping push with the rest of your skulks, that's for certain. They're not helping kill that marine in Maintenance knifing the RT. 3 players essentially gone once every 30 seconds (depending on how long it takes the nukegun reload from the armory).
O wait, now they've got an IMBA-nukgun Jper and a regular JP shotgun are in your base. Well, shit, 5 skulks better wait at the hive then.
===
It doesn't matter if marines cost 0 res if marines can't get out of base and attack aliens. Simply seeing a marine back in base is a victory for aliens (assuming they aren't noob and lose a higher level lifeform).
A fade forces 2 marines back (but normally needs 3 to drive it out depending on accuracy). An onos forces at least 3 back (and needs 4 to kill it). Manpower is lost in time chasing and dying to push back these attacks.
You know with forward phases, marines can get to base and back to the front lines in a matter of seconds.
Here in australia, marines win more games than aliens! Work it out, 'murica.
I occasionally try to play on EU or AUS servers and am regularly surprised by how different continents seem to play the same game differently. I never thought double arms lab rushing would be an effective strategy, until I watched marines repeatedly win on Monash back in the early B3XX's. Try that on an US server and you'd likely get crushed.
Yeah I never see camo 1st much on aussie servers...but its common on euro or US servers I have found.
Being on the wrong side of aus....and having played back in the old dial up days...I dont mind playing with a 250-300 ping, this is kinda lucky as I dont often get sub 90 to other side of aus and there re few west coast servers,
Funny I had not thought the double arms lab was overly unique...just logical (multiple hives to research blink and leap...multiple arms labs for armour and weapons (recycled so long term impacts negligable unless one is lost)).
My favourite was when I was playing marines, I walked in to smelting with another guy, he looks up to the dark ceiling picks off 3 skulks on the rafters the second we walk in. I was right next to him, there was no way in hell the skulks gave them selves away, I couldn't even see them as they were being shot.
Back on topic, I don't want to see any nerfs that make aliens easier to kill, or buffs marines more deadly. I'd rather see something along the lines of gorges being more useful to build stuff.
Comments
I think marine RT's should get a health buff to increase response time.
I'm all for finding out solutions to fix the balance problem, but the continuous buff/nerf game isn't the way to go about it. Especially not when marines are already superior in almost all aspects and certainly not without taking into consideration the skill disparity that most definitely exists in pub play.
Seems like it would give them more forward momentum and able to respond to the other team better in the early game?
In pubs at least it's rare that the khamm spends much time out of the hive, so I don't think that's a factor, although I do agree the khamm should have more reason to work full time. Add in a permagorge to build stuff and you have two players not contributing to combat, which is not that different from the marines who divide their building time amongst the team. This to me is completely within the realm of reasonable asymmetry and by no means insurmountable for balance.
The 3 second build time for new power nodes always felt right to me. Long enough to put you at risk from an ambush, but not so long that you find yourself checking the time.
Early-game is fine - everything basically depends who wins those early fights.Meaning people must rely on FUCKING GOD AWFUL lag compensation to hit anything.Now add that to fps drop I´m sure most gamers are experiencing(as I´ve noticed shit goes south as soon as someone bites or shoots at me).I feel like I´m living in the past.I get killed in 0,001 sec of someone barely seeing me.
Don´t reply to this, I´m obviously assuming lots of things here.I´m pissed I get killed even though I´m doing my VERY BEST and still get slaughtered because of it.I cannot counter something I can only see after it´s already happened.
Fades and Lerks - EVERY SINGLE Fade I´ve ever encountered kills with 2 swipes and never misses and never dies.I´ve never seen an unexperienced Fade.How the fuck am I suppose to counter that ? + the fact that I see when he actually hits me a century later.(My ping is 40-60 in Europe servers by the way).Jetpacks are not a counter to them, nor are shotguns nor just loads of people, nor all of them together.Why ? Because they just gtfo as soon as they see more than 1 person.Well, you say, that fade is no longer useful then.Wrong.He still kills us 1 by one.
Lerks - not really a problem, but there is nothing to do against Spores.There should be at least something that doesn´t devalue spores of course.It requires almost no skill to use spores.Just fly in when other lifeforms are attacking and press your mouse.Meanwhile every Marine has be a crackshot to kill the flying rat.Some kind of a Cerum, that the Marines could buy for 5 pres and that lasts for a temporary time or idk a gasmask, but it inhibits your view and costs more obviously.
Onos - Again, impossible to kill one even with 4 marines hitting every bullet and then chasing the damn thing.It is VERY easy to learn when to retreat and how to attack with an Onos.
Needs some temporary counter, but only in early-game, that becomes useless in mid game.ANYTHING to make the beast not be so confident to attack any number of marines.I´m thinking something like a temporary wall, that is only useful against Onos´ and that only a Commander that place(no marines needed to build it).It obviously should cost accordingly, so it should be used when the situation calls for it.
This is quite a dangerous perspective to have, though many players share it. Its the same reason many people think the fade is overpowered, or that it can adequately perform its task in battle.
The point is not to kill the Onos. When an Onos runs into your base, and the commander distresses, the point is not to kill the Onos. The point is to get it out of your base. 4 marines can't kill an Onos? Ok, but why does that matter? 4 marines will make an Onos run before it does damage to anything important. Onos runs in and kills 3 marines and doesn't die? Who cares, marines are free, at least the Onos is gone.
Then players start to think, well if killing it is the main objective, and I can't kill it, then why bother. I will just go do something else. And then you don't get the Onos out of your base, and it does do serious damage to important things.
That is quite a dangerous perspective to have as a marine. By simply having marines in base is a loss to marines. For every second your marines are in the same room as your base, the marines are losing. If the commander has to beacon, it's even worse because tres is lost.
Let's put it this way. A jetpacker with an IMBA-nukegun flies into your base and attacks your hive (not eggs) and kills 3 skulks and flies away. And then does it again. and again. and again. What are your 3 skulks doing if they stay in your hive? They're not helping push with the rest of your skulks, that's for certain. They're not helping kill that marine in Maintenance knifing the RT. 3 players essentially gone once every 30 seconds (depending on how long it takes the nukegun reload from the armory).
O wait, now they've got an IMBA-nukgun Jper and a regular JP shotgun are in your base. Well, shit, 5 skulks better wait at the hive then.
===
It doesn't matter if marines cost 0 res if marines can't get out of base and attack aliens. Simply seeing a marine back in base is a victory for aliens (assuming they aren't noob and lose a higher level lifeform).
A fade forces 2 marines back (but normally needs 3 to drive it out depending on accuracy). An onos forces at least 3 back (and needs 4 to kill it). Manpower is lost in time chasing and dying to push back these attacks.
You know with forward phases, marines can get to base and back to the front lines in a matter of seconds.
Being on the wrong side of aus....and having played back in the old dial up days...I dont mind playing with a 250-300 ping, this is kinda lucky as I dont often get sub 90 to other side of aus and there re few west coast servers,
Funny I had not thought the double arms lab was overly unique...just logical (multiple hives to research blink and leap...multiple arms labs for armour and weapons (recycled so long term impacts negligable unless one is lost)).
I've wondered about that on some servers I've joined. I often see some horrendous stacking of marines...
Then of course there is this bull$#|& which goes on.
http://www.ausns2.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=129
My favourite was when I was playing marines, I walked in to smelting with another guy, he looks up to the dark ceiling picks off 3 skulks on the rafters the second we walk in. I was right next to him, there was no way in hell the skulks gave them selves away, I couldn't even see them as they were being shot.
Back on topic, I don't want to see any nerfs that make aliens easier to kill, or buffs marines more deadly. I'd rather see something along the lines of gorges being more useful to build stuff.