Let me know if I missed something. I didn't really write out the plethora of possible solutions offered in this thread, I think first we need to actually get the devs to acknowledge some of these issues. I'm sure they'll come digging in this thread for ideas, or come up with some of their own, if they ever decide to make any changes based on this input. It was a fruitful discussion at least, and while I acknowledge there's other factors at play, I do believe we've touched upon some of the most fundamental problems resulting from NS2's design
I think that the text summarizes the major points of the thread well. Good job @Xarius and @Ironhorse! Personally, I'd also mention the problem with Marines being tied with construction tasks while the whole Alien team is free to roam the map and harass. Anyway, it's awesome news that this has reached the devs.
2) I think that the economy issues are ok, in an asymetrical game you are always going to have different time periods in which different teams are stronger as you pointed out, terran in sc2 is constantly under pressure to end the game quickly agains both races. In NS2 I think that kind of mechanic is OK and its just important that marines are balanced to BE stronger at the start of the game. I don't feel that the aliens have the ability to snowball any more then marines can if they hold alot of RTs.
it's absolutely fine for specific mechanics to peak at different times of play, but that should not translate to "win before Onos comes out".
This is where I have a problem. If games are only supposed to last under 10 minutes, then shouldn't BOTH sides be under pressure to finish the game within that time frame?
right. if we draw a parallel to SC2 again (take note that I have not played since Season 5 of WoL), Zerg is the high mobility race who is expected to hold lots of ground, or at least one more expansion than the other races. this makes sense from a fundamental gameplay perspective. Zergs had to defend with their high mobility by swinging back and forth from the Terran split pressure. Terrans were able to invest a lot into these offensive attacks because they had great defensive capabilities, but slow mobility. raised supply depot walls, siege tanks, repair, inherent range vs. melee - all of these made Zerg pressure more difficult and costly than Terran pressure.
returning to NS2: the marines have limited mobility, are expected to hold more extractors than harvesters, and are also forced into the position of putting pressure on the harvesters which spreads your forces thin. additionally, they have greater offensive capability, as it's possible to send one Skulk to each RT and guarantee that spreading the marines out will net you at least one of the extractors. this is a deep contrast to marines which requires 2-3 players to take out a single extractor, especially if there are hydras and clogs involved. on top of this, they are free to base rush at any point the marines move out to force a beacon. it simply seems flawed and the race qualities don't mesh well with each other.
3) camouflage is absurdly strong in both public and competitive play
Yet surprisingly underused.
have people grown bored of it? it hasn't been changed from the patch where there were 3+ forum threads on the front page complaining about how it was overpowered. I have to admit that I have not played in a pub since the patch where camouflage became standard. there were games where commanders were being kicked for not researching it because it was such an effective win button. I'm not a fan of the gameplay style it forces you into, especially not when I want to pub and just mindlessly click on some enemies. from the marine perspective, it requires a significantly large amount of teamwork to bring down, and requires a competent commander as well as competent marines, and is frustrating to play against.
in terms of competitive play, I believe the reason it's underused is simply because of the large risk factor (you are forced to cause damage because being stuck on a Shade hive is terrible), and probably because it is seen as "cheap", whatever that means. regardless, it was used to great effect to effortlessly take a round from us in NSL round 2, and we have scrimmed baguette I believe after an ESL game where they mass-expanded behind the threat of camouflage to again pretty much effortlessly win without even engaging us. its usage is irrelevant I think. if you just analyze it from a gameplay perspective, it largely the skill floor by requiring little execution to force out ridiculous amounts of teamwork to beat, which is silly.
Silence is better than camo.
Camo is still good, but silence is better.
it's not a question of which is better, but thank you for offering your brave contrarian opinion. it's a discussion of the level of execution required. it doesn't matter if silence is better because there is a certain level of execution required to make it effective. camouflage is currently incredibly effective and requires minimal execution, that is the complaint.
Silence is better than camo.
Camo is still good, but silence is better.
it's not a question of which is better, but thank you for offering your brave contrarian opinion. it's a discussion of the level of execution required. it doesn't matter if silence is better because there is a certain level of execution required to make it effective. camouflage is currently incredibly effective and requires minimal execution, that is the complaint.
7: Viel is sort of easy for marines probably because you always have atleast 1-2 people go gorge to nano taking them out of the marine rt harass train
From what I remember from the competitive play you were barely seeing more than 1 permagorge on the field ...
Early game was driven by "I gorge and drop an RT then morph back to skulk"
This was just used as a delay of the alien tech explosion. Note that due to this limited amound of pres'd players Fade HAD to be good and was deciding the fate of a game ...
When you were getting to onoses you had won the game a long time ago...
What about a (relatively cheap) alien building needed to enable personal use of higher life forms i.e. lerk, fade and onos. After being built, it constantly draws a small amount of team resources per minute to fill some kind of buffer. A player can use his p-res to evolve into a higher lifeform only if there is enough material to draw from the buffer (amount is proportional to p-res needed). The khammander can upgrade this building for bigger buffer (so more players can change into higher life forms simultaneously because it takes time to recharge the buffer and its volume is limited), faster reload (which draws more t-res/minute) and better efficiency. In addition to t-res, the buffer is also filled by marines and aliens dying on infestation (the corpses are digested and partly transfered into the buffer). The khammander can build more of these buildings but on the expense of increased t-res consumption per minute. In addition (or alternatively) to this building, he still has the option to drop life forms form eggs nonetheless.
By this mechanic, a new t-res sink is introduced for the aliens (putting the economy on equal grounds), the khammander has more to do (upgrades, decisions - increase buffer or rate ?), a new tactical target is available for the marines, and it prevents technological explosion because aliens can't go fade/onos all at once unless the khammander built enough buffers and spent the time+res to fill them all. Also it introduces a benefit for the aliens to actually fight the marines on infestation because otherwise their corpses / invested t-res will be completely lost. Meanwhile it preserves the personal freedom of the players to evolve into higher life forms at will, although the khammander gains increased influence by deciding how often / fast / simultaneously this can happen.
I like the idea Ironhorse pointed out about the roles of the alien lifeforms that need to be much more clearly defined.
My personal opinion at 2am after some beers:
- first and apart from roles: remove Celerity-doesn't-work-in-combat-mechanic - this will also solve the bilebomb damage ticks slowing down Gorges and other stuff you don't want.
- Skulk: is fine as it is right now; good damage against marines and structures, but the weakest lifeform.
ROLE: Highly mobile "Allrounder", Ambusher, Scout, but with the least hitpoints.
- Gorge: needs tweaking; alien structures should self-build maybe 30 to 50% slower, but Gorges should speed building up with healspray a little faster than now, so that the overall time of an alien structure that is healsprayed up equals the time it takes to build now while being constantly healsprayed. Maybe increase Hydra health by 20 to 30%. Reduce bile bomb splash damage and maybe range (only the target directly hit inflicts full damage (but also scaled down), the surrounding targets inflict lesser damage). Also accordingly increase HP of POWER NODES in TECH POINTS.
ROLE: Builder, Supporter, multi-target(!) Siege Unit (overall a Gorge should do more damage to the structures in a base than an Onos in the same time, but the high overall damage should be divided upon all the strcutures (multiple targets), while an Onos can focus all its siege damage on a single target. So the Gorge should whittle down a good portion of a base, but not instantly wipe out a whole base, and an Onos should pick single structures and bash them relatively quickly)
- Lerk: should spit spores like he spits umbra to prevent him from having to fly at shotgun-point-blank-range, if he wants to use spores on marines - change energy cost of spores accordingly.
ROLE: Flying mobile Harasser/Disruptor, Supporter.
- Fade: Reduce damage to buildings with SWIPE to 40ish - maybe even play a different hit animation and a "crash"- or "clunk"-sound, when a building is struck with the Fade's claws, but the claws don't tear or shred through the building's armor. Make the Fade survive 2 close-range shotgun-blasts again. Optimize energy costs for BLINK and SHADOW STEP, so that you really have to choose between CELERITY and ADRENALINE. Adjust HP/ARMOR values, so that both REGENERATION and CARAPACE become a viable choice.
ROLE: Very mobile Marine-Killer, but weak vs. structures.
- Onos: Reduce ridiculous celerity-onos speed and make GORE inferior to the Fade's SWIPE damage-wise. I'd say it should take one more GORE than the number of SWIPES to kill a marine. A little scaling between A1 and A2 would also be nice. Increase CHARGE speed and maneuverability, so that Adrenaline becomes a viable option, too.
ROLE: Big single-target(!) Siege Unit, Meat-Shield, Disruptor with STOMP. (and NOT: superfast, superheavy, super high damage to everything Gorilla-Elefant-Terminator of Doom)
Silence is better than camo.
Camo is still good, but silence is better.
it's not a question of which is better, but thank you for offering your brave contrarian opinion. it's a discussion of the level of execution required. it doesn't matter if silence is better because there is a certain level of execution required to make it effective. camouflage is currently incredibly effective and requires minimal execution, that is the complaint.
Kaboom.
Which one is the top and which of you is the bottom?
gad pj when did you learn words like contrary
Anyway, why does camo need a high level of execution? Can anyone answer me why it needs to be different, when it functions fine as it is?
Silence is better than camo.
Camo is still good, but silence is better.
it's not a question of which is better, but thank you for offering your brave contrarian opinion. it's a discussion of the level of execution required. it doesn't matter if silence is better because there is a certain level of execution required to make it effective. camouflage is currently incredibly effective and requires minimal execution, that is the complaint.
Silence is better all around than Camo.
Camo has a hard counter, silence doesn't.
Edit:
Quite frankly, if Camo was OMG OSSIM as you guys claim, you'd be seeing it in competitive play first, instead of Carapace.
The issue that being successful as a team requires un-fun sacrifices on the part of individual players. It's a coordination problem that isn't fun or interesting to solve. You say "you have to drop RTs/hives or you won't get your higher lifeforms" but that's not true. You just let the rest of your team do it and you're set. See the Free Rider Problem in economics. And yes, people could work it out in most games... but it's just not a fun thing to deal with, as often it punishes the team-players and rewards the free-riders. Having a gameplay aspect that requires some "teamwork" to overcome does not make it a good feature if the teamwork isn't fun and rewarding.
The fact that you bring up economics when we are talking about teamplay suggests that you have no idea what teamplay is all about. Let me explain it to you: In an economic, you work for yourself and against each other. In a team, you work for your team and with your teammates. The theory of economics is that greed is good because it drives everyone to do whats best for themself. This is not applicable to teams, because if everyone does whats best for himself, there is no team.
Almost every teamsport has different roles and some are not as fun as others. But not everyone can be the ace, striker, quarterback etc. Teams only work if everyone does the most in order to win, not to have the most "fun" whatever you exactly mean with that. The different roles in teamgames are what make them interesting. This idea of everything thats not inherently "fun" is bad for the game is dumbing down games. Seeing those "not funny" actions pay off is actually a very awarding feeling or why do you think people spend months grinding for gear in RPGs?
You dont wanna have gorges running around the map whenever something is broken.
Gorges running around is exactly what I want. If they have to place the cysts then they have to move out and be on the front and others have to protect them. This encourages teamplay, is more fun than sitting in the back healing structures far away from fights and changes the early game for skulks as they now have more to do than just harass marines.
I tend to agree.
What I have proposed once before is to remove the role of 'khamm' in terms of a single dedicated player role.
Part of what made NS1 so good was that the aliens were supposed to work as a 'collective'. This hive mentality meant cooperation and coordination, not a single person dictating the roles for the rest of the team like on the marines. What happened to asymmetry?
An easy way to convert NS2 into something more in line with the original design would be to remove the khamm as a dedicated player role. In its place are gorges. The gorges are now the 'khamm' for all purposes related to building of structures and cysts etc. The gorges (as many as the aliens want to use) would *ALL* have access to the team's T-res pool. So it would be like NS1 in the sense that they would have to coordinate their actions.
Aliens could have a few gorges to start if they wanted to establish presence quicker, but that would take away from their skulk assaults. It would also make them more susceptible to attack by marines slipping past their front lines. Now there would still be alien overhead view, and any gorge would be able to hop into a hive to use it. From there they would be able to choose upgrades, or direct drifters etc. Things that would be too clunky to do from the ground. So there would still be a 'khamm' in that regard. (this would also prevent the khamm from building in non-map areas - since gorges would have to drop the chambers when they were out of the hive.)
To simplify the game start (regarding having 'commanders' before the game begins) the person who opts to be the 'khamm' for the game start would be evolved to gorge instantly when the game started and 10 res deducted from his res pool. That way he can start right away and the aliens suffer no delay. What happens if at some point in the game there are no gorges and no one has the P-res to go gorge? Allow the person who was the original 'gorge khamm' the ability to evolve to gorge and deduct the missing res cost from the T-res pool. If there isn't enough, 'loan' the res and then deduct it from both P-res and T-res as it comes in until it is paid off.
Another thing this does is it makes camo all of a sudden a lot more useful. Invisible gorges in the early game? Allowed to drop cysts while cloaked but has to decloak to drop chambers? Could be interesting.
Anyway, I'd love to see more complexity added to aliens, especially the gorge. This would make the gorge fun to play, while also bringing back the team asymmetry that NS used to have.
You dont wanna have gorges running around the map whenever something is broken.
Gorges running around is exactly what I want. If they have to place the cysts then they have to move out and be on the front and others have to protect them. This encourages teamplay, is more fun than sitting in the back healing structures far away from fights and changes the early game for skulks as they now have more to do than just harass marines.
That promotes the "wrong kind" of teamwork and cooperation.
What you want is beneficial teamwork. Teamwork that benefits the players and makes them stronger than they would otherwise be alone.
What you do not want is dependent teamwork. Teamwork which is required in order to do anything.
If the gorges are the ones that place cysts, then the commander can't play the role that he has chosen without them. If nobody goes gorge, there is nothing the commander can do to remedy this. Gorges can build the commander's structures faster, but that is merely beneficial, not required. It would be akin to the commander having to explicitly drop eggs in order for anyone to spawn in. You can't place codependency of that level in the game.
Whether or not the marines having to "build" structures violates this is an open question. Its certainly true that when you get a retarded team that all run out of base at round start, you can't do very much, though pressing E on a structure requires no real gameplay choices by the marine in question, unlike going gorge does for an alien. Either way, its certainly true that an entire team going Exo can severely hinder a commanders abilities.
A post elsewhere made me identify another problem. Its not really a novel identification, but it does help to pinpoint a cause for the disparity in gameplay requirements from each team.
Marine tech is expensive, but concrete. What percentage of the games that you have played in have involved the marines losing their arms lab, at any point in time other than the final few seconds? Sometimes you lose your phase tech by an observatory going down, but typically marines have many observatories. Basically what it comes down to is; marine structures are relatively quite "permanent", only really going down when an entire base is taken, or when the marine commander recycles.
Now this is an obvious perk of marine structures, and as with every positive aspect, there must be a negative aspect, in the aid of balance. So they are more expensive. This pro/con dynamic is omnipresent, and is never turned off. It exists whether the aliens acknowledge it or not. It even works in explore mode.
Now lets look at the alien dynamic.
Alien structures are vulnerable. Any commander playing against marines who have a particular penchant for knifing upgrade chambers can tell you this. One second you have carapace, the next you don't. Bam, res lost, upgrade lost, all hell breaking loose. Cyst chains are also incredibly easy to break and destroy, and harvesters go down quickly as a result. So how is this severe disadvantage balanced? Well, alien upgrades are relatively cheap, and relatively few and far between. No where near the complexity and cost of the marine tech tree.
Here's where the problem comes in. This pro/con dynamic is not omnipresent. It isn't always on. If the marine's aren't destroying those structures, and taking advantage of their weakness, then the aliens are getting all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of their entire structure system. This means that all the pressure is on the marines. You must attack and you must destroy structures. If you don't, you fail. The same is not true for the aliens. Due to the hefty cost, the marines must stop aliens from destroying structures. If they fail to do that, then not only do the marines lose the structure, but the increased cost continues to hit them where it hurts.
I don't know if its intended or not, but in the current situation, all the pressure is on the marines.
Marine tech is expensive, but concrete. What percentage of the games that you have played in have involved the marines losing their arms lab, at any point in time other than the final few seconds?
To be fair, this can be significantly attributed to power nodes. Why take out an arms lab when taking out a power node does the same thing AND usually costs the marines their tech point? With power nodes in play there is little incentive to attack any other structures in base. Sure as an alien you'll attack a forward phase gate, but at a tech point the highest value target is always the power node. (although the observatory runs a close second.)
Marine tech is expensive, but concrete. What percentage of the games that you have played in have involved the marines losing their arms lab, at any point in time other than the final few seconds?
To be fair, this can be significantly attributed to power nodes. Why take out an arms lab when taking out a power node does the same thing AND usually costs the marines their tech point? With power nodes in play there is little incentive to attack any other structures in base. Sure as an alien you'll attack a forward phase gate, but at a tech point the highest value target is always the power node. (although the observatory runs a close second.)
Then maybe the issue also involves the marine team's primary advantage in terms of structure strength being circumvented by the power node.
Comments
-Dear Devs,
Please ignore this thread.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s4zzrh027jfQ__Xe61tQC3U3Y94O4oSs-G079_J85xY/edit?usp=sharing
Let me know if I missed something. I didn't really write out the plethora of possible solutions offered in this thread, I think first we need to actually get the devs to acknowledge some of these issues. I'm sure they'll come digging in this thread for ideas, or come up with some of their own, if they ever decide to make any changes based on this input. It was a fruitful discussion at least, and while I acknowledge there's other factors at play, I do believe we've touched upon some of the most fundamental problems resulting from NS2's design
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrite
In a sarcastic tone, as he deletes the link.
He is going through the list as we speak, reading each point out in a retarded voice. The entire UWE staff are dying of laughter at each suggestion.
right. if we draw a parallel to SC2 again (take note that I have not played since Season 5 of WoL), Zerg is the high mobility race who is expected to hold lots of ground, or at least one more expansion than the other races. this makes sense from a fundamental gameplay perspective. Zergs had to defend with their high mobility by swinging back and forth from the Terran split pressure. Terrans were able to invest a lot into these offensive attacks because they had great defensive capabilities, but slow mobility. raised supply depot walls, siege tanks, repair, inherent range vs. melee - all of these made Zerg pressure more difficult and costly than Terran pressure.
returning to NS2: the marines have limited mobility, are expected to hold more extractors than harvesters, and are also forced into the position of putting pressure on the harvesters which spreads your forces thin. additionally, they have greater offensive capability, as it's possible to send one Skulk to each RT and guarantee that spreading the marines out will net you at least one of the extractors. this is a deep contrast to marines which requires 2-3 players to take out a single extractor, especially if there are hydras and clogs involved. on top of this, they are free to base rush at any point the marines move out to force a beacon. it simply seems flawed and the race qualities don't mesh well with each other.
have people grown bored of it? it hasn't been changed from the patch where there were 3+ forum threads on the front page complaining about how it was overpowered. I have to admit that I have not played in a pub since the patch where camouflage became standard. there were games where commanders were being kicked for not researching it because it was such an effective win button. I'm not a fan of the gameplay style it forces you into, especially not when I want to pub and just mindlessly click on some enemies. from the marine perspective, it requires a significantly large amount of teamwork to bring down, and requires a competent commander as well as competent marines, and is frustrating to play against.
in terms of competitive play, I believe the reason it's underused is simply because of the large risk factor (you are forced to cause damage because being stuck on a Shade hive is terrible), and probably because it is seen as "cheap", whatever that means. regardless, it was used to great effect to effortlessly take a round from us in NSL round 2, and we have scrimmed baguette I believe after an ESL game where they mass-expanded behind the threat of camouflage to again pretty much effortlessly win without even engaging us. its usage is irrelevant I think. if you just analyze it from a gameplay perspective, it largely the skill floor by requiring little execution to force out ridiculous amounts of teamwork to beat, which is silly.
@RandomEngy of HL1 speedrun? h-h-hi
Camo is still good, but silence is better.
Kaboom.
From what I remember from the competitive play you were barely seeing more than 1 permagorge on the field ...
Early game was driven by "I gorge and drop an RT then morph back to skulk"
This was just used as a delay of the alien tech explosion. Note that due to this limited amound of pres'd players Fade HAD to be good and was deciding the fate of a game ...
When you were getting to onoses you had won the game a long time ago...
By this mechanic, a new t-res sink is introduced for the aliens (putting the economy on equal grounds), the khammander has more to do (upgrades, decisions - increase buffer or rate ?), a new tactical target is available for the marines, and it prevents technological explosion because aliens can't go fade/onos all at once unless the khammander built enough buffers and spent the time+res to fill them all. Also it introduces a benefit for the aliens to actually fight the marines on infestation because otherwise their corpses / invested t-res will be completely lost. Meanwhile it preserves the personal freedom of the players to evolve into higher life forms at will, although the khammander gains increased influence by deciding how often / fast / simultaneously this can happen.
My personal opinion at 2am after some beers:
- first and apart from roles: remove Celerity-doesn't-work-in-combat-mechanic - this will also solve the bilebomb damage ticks slowing down Gorges and other stuff you don't want.
- Skulk: is fine as it is right now; good damage against marines and structures, but the weakest lifeform.
ROLE: Highly mobile "Allrounder", Ambusher, Scout, but with the least hitpoints.
- Gorge: needs tweaking; alien structures should self-build maybe 30 to 50% slower, but Gorges should speed building up with healspray a little faster than now, so that the overall time of an alien structure that is healsprayed up equals the time it takes to build now while being constantly healsprayed. Maybe increase Hydra health by 20 to 30%. Reduce bile bomb splash damage and maybe range (only the target directly hit inflicts full damage (but also scaled down), the surrounding targets inflict lesser damage). Also accordingly increase HP of POWER NODES in TECH POINTS.
ROLE: Builder, Supporter, multi-target(!) Siege Unit (overall a Gorge should do more damage to the structures in a base than an Onos in the same time, but the high overall damage should be divided upon all the strcutures (multiple targets), while an Onos can focus all its siege damage on a single target. So the Gorge should whittle down a good portion of a base, but not instantly wipe out a whole base, and an Onos should pick single structures and bash them relatively quickly)
- Lerk: should spit spores like he spits umbra to prevent him from having to fly at shotgun-point-blank-range, if he wants to use spores on marines - change energy cost of spores accordingly.
ROLE: Flying mobile Harasser/Disruptor, Supporter.
- Fade: Reduce damage to buildings with SWIPE to 40ish - maybe even play a different hit animation and a "crash"- or "clunk"-sound, when a building is struck with the Fade's claws, but the claws don't tear or shred through the building's armor. Make the Fade survive 2 close-range shotgun-blasts again. Optimize energy costs for BLINK and SHADOW STEP, so that you really have to choose between CELERITY and ADRENALINE. Adjust HP/ARMOR values, so that both REGENERATION and CARAPACE become a viable choice.
ROLE: Very mobile Marine-Killer, but weak vs. structures.
- Onos: Reduce ridiculous celerity-onos speed and make GORE inferior to the Fade's SWIPE damage-wise. I'd say it should take one more GORE than the number of SWIPES to kill a marine. A little scaling between A1 and A2 would also be nice. Increase CHARGE speed and maneuverability, so that Adrenaline becomes a viable option, too.
ROLE: Big single-target(!) Siege Unit, Meat-Shield, Disruptor with STOMP. (and NOT: superfast, superheavy, super high damage to everything Gorilla-Elefant-Terminator of Doom)
Hmm... discuss.
Which one is the top and which of you is the bottom?
gad pj when did you learn words like contrary
Anyway, why does camo need a high level of execution? Can anyone answer me why it needs to be different, when it functions fine as it is?
Camo has a hard counter, silence doesn't.
Edit:
Quite frankly, if Camo was OMG OSSIM as you guys claim, you'd be seeing it in competitive play first, instead of Carapace.
The fact that you bring up economics when we are talking about teamplay suggests that you have no idea what teamplay is all about. Let me explain it to you: In an economic, you work for yourself and against each other. In a team, you work for your team and with your teammates. The theory of economics is that greed is good because it drives everyone to do whats best for themself. This is not applicable to teams, because if everyone does whats best for himself, there is no team.
Almost every teamsport has different roles and some are not as fun as others. But not everyone can be the ace, striker, quarterback etc. Teams only work if everyone does the most in order to win, not to have the most "fun" whatever you exactly mean with that. The different roles in teamgames are what make them interesting. This idea of everything thats not inherently "fun" is bad for the game is dumbing down games. Seeing those "not funny" actions pay off is actually a very awarding feeling or why do you think people spend months grinding for gear in RPGs?
The counter to camo counters silence as well.
What I have proposed once before is to remove the role of 'khamm' in terms of a single dedicated player role.
Part of what made NS1 so good was that the aliens were supposed to work as a 'collective'. This hive mentality meant cooperation and coordination, not a single person dictating the roles for the rest of the team like on the marines. What happened to asymmetry?
An easy way to convert NS2 into something more in line with the original design would be to remove the khamm as a dedicated player role. In its place are gorges. The gorges are now the 'khamm' for all purposes related to building of structures and cysts etc. The gorges (as many as the aliens want to use) would *ALL* have access to the team's T-res pool. So it would be like NS1 in the sense that they would have to coordinate their actions.
Aliens could have a few gorges to start if they wanted to establish presence quicker, but that would take away from their skulk assaults. It would also make them more susceptible to attack by marines slipping past their front lines. Now there would still be alien overhead view, and any gorge would be able to hop into a hive to use it. From there they would be able to choose upgrades, or direct drifters etc. Things that would be too clunky to do from the ground. So there would still be a 'khamm' in that regard. (this would also prevent the khamm from building in non-map areas - since gorges would have to drop the chambers when they were out of the hive.)
To simplify the game start (regarding having 'commanders' before the game begins) the person who opts to be the 'khamm' for the game start would be evolved to gorge instantly when the game started and 10 res deducted from his res pool. That way he can start right away and the aliens suffer no delay. What happens if at some point in the game there are no gorges and no one has the P-res to go gorge? Allow the person who was the original 'gorge khamm' the ability to evolve to gorge and deduct the missing res cost from the T-res pool. If there isn't enough, 'loan' the res and then deduct it from both P-res and T-res as it comes in until it is paid off.
Another thing this does is it makes camo all of a sudden a lot more useful. Invisible gorges in the early game? Allowed to drop cysts while cloaked but has to decloak to drop chambers? Could be interesting.
Anyway, I'd love to see more complexity added to aliens, especially the gorge. This would make the gorge fun to play, while also bringing back the team asymmetry that NS used to have.
That promotes the "wrong kind" of teamwork and cooperation.
What you want is beneficial teamwork. Teamwork that benefits the players and makes them stronger than they would otherwise be alone.
What you do not want is dependent teamwork. Teamwork which is required in order to do anything.
If the gorges are the ones that place cysts, then the commander can't play the role that he has chosen without them. If nobody goes gorge, there is nothing the commander can do to remedy this. Gorges can build the commander's structures faster, but that is merely beneficial, not required. It would be akin to the commander having to explicitly drop eggs in order for anyone to spawn in. You can't place codependency of that level in the game.
Whether or not the marines having to "build" structures violates this is an open question. Its certainly true that when you get a retarded team that all run out of base at round start, you can't do very much, though pressing E on a structure requires no real gameplay choices by the marine in question, unlike going gorge does for an alien. Either way, its certainly true that an entire team going Exo can severely hinder a commanders abilities.
Marine tech is expensive, but concrete. What percentage of the games that you have played in have involved the marines losing their arms lab, at any point in time other than the final few seconds? Sometimes you lose your phase tech by an observatory going down, but typically marines have many observatories. Basically what it comes down to is; marine structures are relatively quite "permanent", only really going down when an entire base is taken, or when the marine commander recycles.
Now this is an obvious perk of marine structures, and as with every positive aspect, there must be a negative aspect, in the aid of balance. So they are more expensive. This pro/con dynamic is omnipresent, and is never turned off. It exists whether the aliens acknowledge it or not. It even works in explore mode.
Now lets look at the alien dynamic.
Alien structures are vulnerable. Any commander playing against marines who have a particular penchant for knifing upgrade chambers can tell you this. One second you have carapace, the next you don't. Bam, res lost, upgrade lost, all hell breaking loose. Cyst chains are also incredibly easy to break and destroy, and harvesters go down quickly as a result. So how is this severe disadvantage balanced? Well, alien upgrades are relatively cheap, and relatively few and far between. No where near the complexity and cost of the marine tech tree.
Here's where the problem comes in. This pro/con dynamic is not omnipresent. It isn't always on. If the marine's aren't destroying those structures, and taking advantage of their weakness, then the aliens are getting all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of their entire structure system. This means that all the pressure is on the marines. You must attack and you must destroy structures. If you don't, you fail. The same is not true for the aliens. Due to the hefty cost, the marines must stop aliens from destroying structures. If they fail to do that, then not only do the marines lose the structure, but the increased cost continues to hit them where it hurts.
I don't know if its intended or not, but in the current situation, all the pressure is on the marines.
Then maybe the issue also involves the marine team's primary advantage in terms of structure strength being circumvented by the power node.
Scans/Observatories completely negate silence, and make you make noise again?
The silence upgrade is as much about not making noise as carapace is about making the number on your HUD higher.