agreeing with xao, changing direction in mid air defies the laws of physics. I see a skulk jump forward and while in mid air it does a 180 and goes the opposite direction, wtf
I think the Skulk air control is fine in NS2. I often use it to my advantage to evade bullets and flank quickly. Being unpredictable when you jump is much better than jumping straight against a Marine, especially against one who can track well.
This is exactly my problem with it - it's totally unpredictable, given the other advantages given to Skulks (size/colour/speed) is air control at no cost (Leap having it I'm all for!) is over the top imo
ogz: I don't think that is a very useful comparison. Yes people in QW were insanely accurate and good at predicting movement, but I've never seen someone hit an airrock against a strafing air player unless it was clear where they intended to go. In NS2 the only place the Skulk intends go to is "out of your crosshair" and has a choice of 3 directions (stop/left/right) with out leap and 6 with leap to do this. Marines only way to avoid being bitten is to not be in range since they are so immobile in comparison to an evading skulk in close range. We already see Marines jumping around like they are standing on hot coals to try to dodge a few skulk hits and skulks who almost literally fly around them in circles
Being able to change (significantly) direction in mid air is just so counter-intuitive is borders on insane in my view.
It's not counter-intuitive because so many other games have this feature that it's just about par for the course for science fiction shooter games. NS2 has numerous other implausible elements so it's not like a bit of air control is out of place.
Most FPS games only have air-accelerate to enable you to jump into vents/onto crates in an easy fashion: walk upto object, jump 'at' object while holding forward - land on object. The side effect of this is aircontrol, very few FPS games have asymmetry which gives such a large advantage over the other team in this aspect as in NS2.
Marines only way to avoid being bitten is to not be in range since they are so immobile in comparison to an evading skulk in close range. We already see Marines jumping around like they are standing on hot coals to try to dodge a few skulk hits and skulks who almost literally fly around them in circles
Spamming jump ain't so good for dodging. But I've seen some player dance around skulks with well timed jumps and sidestepping.
As for air control, most people don't really make use of it, those who do get a nice advantage from it. It's a good skill differentiator for Skulks.
Emoo; totally agree with point 1 pogo'ing is merely helping the skulk I know currently not many people are using Air control 'strongly' but its starting to creep in more and more as they learn other advanced movements and given how much trouble people are having aiming (myself very much included) already it's going to get pretty unpleasant soon!
Air control is required but it is a bit overkill at the moment.. watching skulks jump around and basically 'flying' like they have little airplane wings is ridiculous looking. Not only that, but it gives the skulk an unfair advantage during large battles. The marines can't hit these little biting spaceships. It requires a few hours of practice to control a skulk in the air but it takes weeks of practice as a marine to be able to actually shoot the flying skulk - and even then your hit rate will be low, you'll be lucky to kill one skulk even with good aim because the silly thing is changing direction at impossible rates, you can't snap to your target when the target is all over the damn screen.
If you are going to allow skulks to move around like this I don't see why marines shouldn't be able to bunny hop. One bullshit exploit should be traded for another.
I think we should retain as much skilled movement in gaming as possible. Before all that is left is crosshairs while you get ferried around in minecarts.
I think we should retain as much skilled movement in gaming as possible. Before all that is left is crosshairs while you get ferried around in minecarts.
You really are going for the constructive post award today aren't you?
I've nothing against skilled movement - Wall jumping, marine's doing correct directional dodges, skulks leaping in a zigzag. But I think the current level of aircontrol is excessive.
@ First comment, you've never made a post for fun?
@ Second comment, what's wrong with wanting to keep skilled movement in games? There's NOTHING wrong with that at all, if you think I'm trolling you can just fuck off right now.
In saying the next step after removing a piece of skilled movement which is dubiously achievable due to a game engine is being positioned in minecarts - then yes, I think you are deliberately trolling and taking this point to a very unnecessary and obviously pointless extreme to undermine the actual debate. To imply that aliens don't have to abide by the same laws of physics as the Marines, when they are in the same game engine is the same at best, at worst trolling.
There is a large difference between posting for fun, and posting with expletives and no emoticons to imply sarcasm with no constructive element in a thread about a particular game element which people are constructively discussing.
As I have been saying, I have no problem with skilled movement, but where does skilled movement become an exploit of part of the game engine, just because it is possible does not mean it was intended to be possible, and just because it is; does not mean it shouldn't be removed if it is possible to do so. Hence the debate.
Joederp, wonderfully phrased the flying-skulk[tm] vs marines at this phenomenon! I shall be using this in future
You used no information to present what you posted as a joke. Therefore it was not taken as a joke.
Anyway - so your argument is basically that anything in the game which can be learnt should be kept in as it enhances the skill ceiling thus differentiates between higher skill and lower skill players?
-WildCat-Cape Town, South AfricaJoin Date: 2008-07-19Member: 64664Members, Reinforced - Shadow
@Rippsy FYI, Ghosthree3's posts don't constitute trolling, so flagging his posts as such is not really correct usage of that feature. He is just expressing is point of view in a sarcastic/joking manner. Trolling is when someone makes controversial or inflammatory statements for the express purpose of inciting an angry reaction from other forum-goers and, ideally, to cause said forum-goers to make a fool of themselves in the process. Often, a troll doesn't even believe in the point of view that he's expressing. This is a fairly good example of trolling: Image link
i'm sorry you think that way, but this is coming from an ns1 player who has been around for years (not on the forums though. i regret joining the forums actually,) so you probably won't understand my frustration. i'd explain but too long and not worth my time
I sense the same thing happened in NS1 to NS2, despite the drastically different game play, the concept of the game is similar at least. What makes BH'ing especially dangerous in NS2 is that the only lifeform which can effectively use it, are skulks. In NS1 skulks and Marines could abuse it, in CS1.6 it was equal, in QW it's equal. So we have this drastic situation where one lifeform is getting a huge advantage, not speed, but movement control in fights.
there's no bunnyhopping in ns2. i don't think you understand what bunnyhopping is.
Bunnyhopping gorge is angered by his exclusion!
Onos too.
bunnyhopping gorge was incredibly useful. i miss it a lot whenever i play gorge in ns2.
now then, please get back to your discussion, gentlemen. this is not about bunnyhopping. it just seemed like a situation similar to ns1 partly caused by bunnyhopping.
I think we should retain as much skilled movement in gaming as possible. Before all that is left is crosshairs while you get ferried around in minecarts.
The problem is that it's too easy to move in the air, there is no skill needed, you just point in the direction you want to move as you fall. If you nerfed it, you'd have to consider the jumps you make and have a penalty for bad ones.
watch some old quake games or tf2 games.. they have air control as well and yet people can land rockets and even grenades on them
lol, use the GL and try to hit a competent skulk from like 5m away - I highly doubt you'll get a pellet kill unless you're lucky. In TF2, you have huge outdoor space for performing jumps. Trajectories of rocket/grenade jumpers are predictable, and with enough practice, you can accurately gauge exactly where to shoot your projectile from 20m+ away. It's a stark contrast to the "dance of death" in melee range as you try to track a skulk that's trying its best to throw off your aim or get behind you. Granted, it's much easier to track skulks now compared to when wall jump provided more consistent high speeds and when skulks had complete air control.
watch some old quake games or tf2 games.. they have air control as well and yet people can land rockets and even grenades on them
this is a very misleading statement. in Quake and TF2 (really, every other FPS) if you're standing still and you jump, you won't be able to move very far from your original starting location. you aren't able to accelerate in midair unless you already had some initial speed going for you. Quake does not allow you to simply just change direction in midair, you must airstrafe to control it. this is why perfecting circlejumping is so important and creates the foundations for skill movement.
you have a slightly valid case in terms of the TF2 scout who has the ability to instantly change direction, but the difference there is that the animations are much smoother, the doublejump is for set specific distance and height, and it still takes into account your current momentum. for example, if you try to be tricky and jump to the side, and then doublejump straight up, then you will simply fall straight down and you will have no air control. there is a risk / reward factor with it involved. or if you try to do the opposite: jump in place, and then doublejump to a random direction, you are locked into that arc of movement until you land.
in NS2, no regard is given to your initial speed so you can accelerate in midair even if you were standing still when you jumped. this doesn't make any sense from a gameplay perspective, and it's part of why skill movement in NS2 is lacking.
watch some old quake games or tf2 games.. they have air control as well and yet people can land rockets and even grenades on them
Q3 is circle strafing. You can't dramatically change you direction in midair; like how skulks and marines can. You can use circle strafing to maintain speed to accelerate. In Q3, if your flying in on direction, you can't 180 and fly in the opposite direction. Skulks and maines can do a 180.
I'm on fence about this type and amount of air control. It helps marines with getting into vents and climbing to various areas of the maps. If removed, skulks, fades, gorges might need something to replace it. That's why I'm fine with waiting tills it widely abused, or abused to a greater degree; outpacing aim.
If removed, I'd suggest giving skulks a free leap from walls, similar to Hunters in L4D. An ability that scaled with skill and was fun.
I'm just wondering why UWE hasn't made an official response to this thread yet. I want them to clarify wether this is working as intended or simply an exploit in the physics engine.
Bunnyhopping in HL was an exploit of the game's engine, yet a lot of people are okay with that.
How is this different?
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2073363/#Comment_2073363
there is skill movement involved in bunnyhopping. people are generally okay with it because it creates depth and has aspects to be mastered and the technique can always be improved upon. there is no depth in having unrestricted airmove, nothing to be mastered, and it raises the skill floor as opposed to the skill ceiling.
Comments
This is exactly my problem with it - it's totally unpredictable, given the other advantages given to Skulks (size/colour/speed) is air control at no cost (Leap having it I'm all for!) is over the top imo
Spamming jump ain't so good for dodging. But I've seen some player dance around skulks with well timed jumps and sidestepping.
As for air control, most people don't really make use of it, those who do get a nice advantage from it. It's a good skill differentiator for Skulks.
If you are going to allow skulks to move around like this I don't see why marines shouldn't be able to bunny hop. One bullshit exploit should be traded for another.
You really are going for the constructive post award today aren't you?
I've nothing against skilled movement - Wall jumping, marine's doing correct directional dodges, skulks leaping in a zigzag. But I think the current level of aircontrol is excessive.
@ Second comment, what's wrong with wanting to keep skilled movement in games? There's NOTHING wrong with that at all, if you think I'm trolling you can just fuck off right now.
There is a large difference between posting for fun, and posting with expletives and no emoticons to imply sarcasm with no constructive element in a thread about a particular game element which people are constructively discussing.
As I have been saying, I have no problem with skilled movement, but where does skilled movement become an exploit of part of the game engine, just because it is possible does not mean it was intended to be possible, and just because it is; does not mean it shouldn't be removed if it is possible to do so. Hence the debate.
Joederp, wonderfully phrased the flying-skulk[tm] vs marines at this phenomenon! I shall be using this in future
The part about aliens not abiding the laws of physics was a joke too, which I already said, what the hell is wrong with you.
Anyway - so your argument is basically that anything in the game which can be learnt should be kept in as it enhances the skill ceiling thus differentiates between higher skill and lower skill players?
Odd @Person doesn't like your name wildcat, can we get back to the on topic now?
i'm sorry you think that way, but this is coming from an ns1 player who has been around for years (not on the forums though. i regret joining the forums actually,) so you probably won't understand my frustration. i'd explain but too long and not worth my time
there's no bunnyhopping in ns2. i don't think you understand what bunnyhopping is.
bunnyhopping gorge was incredibly useful. i miss it a lot whenever i play gorge in ns2.
now then, please get back to your discussion, gentlemen. this is not about bunnyhopping. it just seemed like a situation similar to ns1 partly caused by bunnyhopping.
The problem is that it's too easy to move in the air, there is no skill needed, you just point in the direction you want to move as you fall. If you nerfed it, you'd have to consider the jumps you make and have a penalty for bad ones.
"WAAaah I can't shoot the jumping skulks."
you have a slightly valid case in terms of the TF2 scout who has the ability to instantly change direction, but the difference there is that the animations are much smoother, the doublejump is for set specific distance and height, and it still takes into account your current momentum. for example, if you try to be tricky and jump to the side, and then doublejump straight up, then you will simply fall straight down and you will have no air control. there is a risk / reward factor with it involved. or if you try to do the opposite: jump in place, and then doublejump to a random direction, you are locked into that arc of movement until you land.
in NS2, no regard is given to your initial speed so you can accelerate in midair even if you were standing still when you jumped. this doesn't make any sense from a gameplay perspective, and it's part of why skill movement in NS2 is lacking.
video because I'm bad at explaining things
Q3 is circle strafing. You can't dramatically change you direction in midair; like how skulks and marines can. You can use circle strafing to maintain speed to accelerate. In Q3, if your flying in on direction, you can't 180 and fly in the opposite direction. Skulks and maines can do a 180.
I'm on fence about this type and amount of air control. It helps marines with getting into vents and climbing to various areas of the maps. If removed, skulks, fades, gorges might need something to replace it. That's why I'm fine with waiting tills it widely abused, or abused to a greater degree; outpacing aim.
If removed, I'd suggest giving skulks a free leap from walls, similar to Hunters in L4D. An ability that scaled with skill and was fun.
How is this different?
there is skill movement involved in bunnyhopping. people are generally okay with it because it creates depth and has aspects to be mastered and the technique can always be improved upon. there is no depth in having unrestricted airmove, nothing to be mastered, and it raises the skill floor as opposed to the skill ceiling.
I think you guys are pulling a chicken little over this.
If skulks have lots of air control, then good skulks will be better at it than other skulks.