Article on NS2 and Free to play

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  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    Hehe, can of worms opened!
  • archwaykittenarchwaykitten Join Date: 2013-01-18 Member: 180431Members
    |strofix| wrote: »

    The case that always stuck out in my mind was that scout class, cant remember its name but knowing their originality, it was probably just the scout. Its starting weapon is some crappy pistol that does no damage but is hit scan at least. I thought that that made good sense. It was meant to be a fast class that did more running than shooting. Then you can buy the jackal (notice how I can't remember much about the game, but I remember this retarded gun's name). God that thing was more powerful than almost any other weapon in the game, and required a ton of XP to unlock, but all the people who just bought it straight up had fun capping flags at light speed and instantly destroying anyone that came near them.

    Pay to win.

    Can of worms open indeed. The pathfinder (scout) does not have a hitscan pistol at all, and the jackal was a weapon for the Infiltrator class, and was only overpowered for a short window before the developers fixed it. And... and...

    I'll stop. Tribes: Ascend is great, is all.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    edited February 2013
    |strofix| wrote: »

    The case that always stuck out in my mind was that scout class, cant remember its name but knowing their originality, it was probably just the scout. Its starting weapon is some crappy pistol that does no damage but is hit scan at least. I thought that that made good sense. It was meant to be a fast class that did more running than shooting. Then you can buy the jackal (notice how I can't remember much about the game, but I remember this retarded gun's name). God that thing was more powerful than almost any other weapon in the game, and required a ton of XP to unlock, but all the people who just bought it straight up had fun capping flags at light speed and instantly destroying anyone that came near them.

    Pay to win.

    Can of worms open indeed. The pathfinder (scout) does not have a hitscan pistol at all, and the jackal was a weapon for the Infiltrator class, and was only overpowered for a short window before the developers fixed it. And... and...

    I'll stop. Tribes: Ascend is great, is all.

    Even better. If you go through the purchasable weapons, you'll find a lot of them were introduced in such an insanely overpowered way, and then fixed. That plasma rifle is another good example. Brilliant business plan though, I must admit.

    Step 1: Introduce expensive but overpowered gun
    Step 2: force everyone to buy the gun because grinding takes too long and its owning you NOW
    Step 3: nerf the gun a month later, claiming that balance is important

    And its pretty obvious I was talking about the Infiltrator. That main weapon seemed hitscan, but I never played with it. That little damage and still not hitscan. Makes the jump from it to jackal even bigger, and even more pay to win.

    Tribes ascend is an entertaining game to be sure. I had a good number of hours playing it. But its as pay to win as they come.
    In fact the only class they got half right was the sentinel. The upgrade weapons were debatably better than the default.

  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
    edited February 2013
    If you guys went F2P, the only thing you should sell are cosmetics.... like DOAT2.

    Cosmetics would also have the same rules as DOTA 2, no silly, goofy hats. DOTA fans have been very adamant about this, and don't want TF2 style cosmetics. All the stupid stuff posted in the workshop by users are ignored. There has already been some cosmetic items for a hero that were slightly off-lore, and fans screamed to get it removed ..and it was.

    If there cosmetics items were ever offered for NS2, it would have to make sense within the universe of natural selection. Black marine and special edition marine armor are perfect examples. Even something like classic fade would be fine.

    I wouldn't mind at all, if UWE went this route. If it means the devs can continue supporting NS2 longer, and the game receives the influx of players F2P brings extending the longevity of the game, then its a win for all.

    Players that have already paid, can automatically receive purchasing points equivalent to $30 or more (plus whatever special marine armor they already have). I have the black marine armor, but I also wouldn't mind opening that up for purchase in order to support the game.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Path of Exile is another good F2P example. Though I don't know how their monetary situation is.
  • rmbrown09rmbrown09 Join Date: 2012-10-17 Member: 162592Members
    F2P saved TF2. None of the items you buy actually help your character, just look cool. They are doing the same thing with dota 2. F2P but tons of stuff to buy for characters and in game. None of it gives you an advantage though.
  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Path of Exile is another good F2P example. Though I don't know how their monetary situation is.

    I've been playing that basically as a single player Diablo-like. I will give them $10 the moment I figure out how to. Just cuz I got $10 worth of play already.

    MAYBE THIS IS HOW IT STARTS!?!?
  • HowserHowser UK Join Date: 2010-02-08 Member: 70488Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    I believe there is a huge base of potential customers out there that will be won over by the game as it continues to grow and receive gorgeous updates from UWE. Some sort of demo (free week/end?) would be a more appealing method of allowing people to see if they like the game. Eventually it'll have to go f2p, and as long as the updates keep coming, I'm fine with that. Just not for a few years yet please
  • SampsonSampson Join Date: 2012-01-06 Member: 139769Members
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    f2p only works for games that are about progression like MMOs where you can't really determine whether to spend money on it until playing it a lot. for all these competitive arena games, demos are far superior

    quake live is pretty much the only free to play done correctly, because it's basically a gigantic demo

    tribes ascend was crap before the single-purchase option... and you still need XP a little, but it's a minor issue now compared to how it used to be

    people bring up cosmetics a lot, but don't realize that those aren't going to do anything for a game that isn't already played by millions. if you are making a niche game for a mature audience, charging for hats isn't even going to keep the lights on
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    edited February 2013
    Premium cosmetic DLC: custom taunts, incorporating your playername, recorded by Strayan.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    The game will not start until both teams have inserted $2 into their command structure
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    edited February 2013
    The best ever microtransaction-based game was Pac-Man.
  • IronsoulIronsoul Join Date: 2011-03-12 Member: 86048Members
    edited February 2013
    I dislike most free to play games as they often have some sort of micro transaction system in place. The reason I dislike this is because I play games for immersion, the moment a micro transaction system is there... well my suspension of disbelief is destroyed and I'm no longer immersed... meaning I'm no longer enjoying the game... meaning I quit.

    I also don't like mini expansion packs (a.k.a. paid DLC) such as what call of duty gets, where it's 3 - 5 new maps for $15. Battlefield 3 did the same thing with back to karkand. It becomes about buying the content, rather than playing the game. (I know, you can argue this point but let's not).

    To expand on the previous paragraph, I don't like DLC in general, lots of lower quality content more frequently. I rarely buy DLC and when I do I almost always regret it. For example, Back To Karkand for battlefield 3. It also means I miss out on content of a game.

    UWE, keep adding content to natural selection 2, new people will buy it. If you want more money from ME DIRECTLY (aside from me telling other people to buy the game), make another game.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    UWE did it right.

    $25. Freely moddable and open source. No annoying splash screens or "press start to start" bullshit. Appropriate options and settings, including adjustible FOV. And best if all, game design that doesn't insult my intelligence. Good job UWE, you get an approval sticker from me! :)

    All this talk of F2P models, game design surrounding it, and paid DLCs is like having a funeral reception at a wedding. Keep the very idea of these nightmares far away from NS2, please.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    CrazyEddie wrote: »
    The best ever microtransaction-based game was Pac-Man.
    Quarters for 1ups down at the arcade :)

  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    |strofix| wrote: »
    The case that always stuck out in my mind was that scout class, cant remember its name but knowing their originality, it was probably just the scout. Its starting weapon is some crappy pistol that does no damage but is hit scan at least. I thought that that made good sense. It was meant to be a fast class that did more running than shooting. Then you can buy the jackal (notice how I can't remember much about the game, but I remember this retarded gun's name). God that thing was more powerful than almost any other weapon in the game, and required a ton of XP to unlock, but all the people who just bought it straight up had fun capping flags at light speed and instantly destroying anyone that came near them.

    Pay to win.

    Scout = Pathfinder
    His starting weapons are a Light Spinfusor + Shotgun.
    A replacement for the Spinfusor is the Bolt Launcher, which shoots a ballistic projectile that deal more damage on a direct hit but has a smaller explosion radius.
    A replacement for the Shotgun is the Light Assault Rifle, which is indeed a straight upgrade and is what you were referring to.
    The Jackal is a mine-laying gun with remote detonation for the Infiltrator.

    Yeah, you clearly remember a lot…
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    CrushaK wrote: »
    |strofix| wrote: »
    The case that always stuck out in my mind was that scout class, cant remember its name but knowing their originality, it was probably just the scout. Its starting weapon is some crappy pistol that does no damage but is hit scan at least. I thought that that made good sense. It was meant to be a fast class that did more running than shooting. Then you can buy the jackal (notice how I can't remember much about the game, but I remember this retarded gun's name). God that thing was more powerful than almost any other weapon in the game, and required a ton of XP to unlock, but all the people who just bought it straight up had fun capping flags at light speed and instantly destroying anyone that came near them.

    Pay to win.

    Scout = Pathfinder
    His starting weapons are a Light Spinfusor + Shotgun.
    A replacement for the Spinfusor is the Bolt Launcher, which shoots a ballistic projectile that deal more damage on a direct hit but has a smaller explosion radius.
    A replacement for the Shotgun is the Light Assault Rifle, which is indeed a straight upgrade and is what you were referring to.
    The Jackal is a mine-laying gun with remote detonation for the Infiltrator.

    Yeah, you clearly remember a lot…

    Says who the pathfinder = scout.
    Infiltrator is fast and light armored. Maybe he is the scout?
    Its abundantly obvious that I was talking about the infiltrator anyway.

  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2013
    I'm am confident, whatever uwe is going to do in that regard (may it be free 2 play, some cosmetic dlcs, or whatever at some point in the future) they are smart enough to do it in a way that won't end up with us standing in front of their office swinging pitchforks.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Says who the pathfinder = scout.
    Infiltrator is fast and light armored. Maybe he is the scout?
    Its abundantly obvious that I was talking about the infiltrator anyway.
    It was meant to be a fast class that did more running than shooting.

    The Pathfinder is meant to be the fast class that doesn't shoot a lot unless they are chasing a capper. And he is the equivalent to TF2's Scout in his role, so the assumption was close that you just got the name confused but meant the same role.


    Anyway, back to topic:
    Another problem that F2P introduces is that you get all the guys in the game who are just in for trying it out because it's free. Those who buy the game usually make a conscious decision about that and then have some incentive to actually pull themselves together and learn how to play the game properly so that they get some bang for their already invested buck.

    Free players don't have this incentive but tend to stick around for some reason even if they are really bad and unable to learn - maybe because they don't have any other games. This may seem like a blatant overreaction, but believe me that I've had my fair share of experiencing this in many F2P games already. The general rule of thumb is that the higher the complexity of the game is and the more you have to rely on teamwork in the game, the more will the existing playerbase of "veterans" suffer from the influx of F2P players, up to a point where it can be unbearable and hatred and hostility may arise in the community.
    MOBAs can sing a song about that as well because in a team of 5 vs 5, every player on a team matters and is expected to know his stuff. One bad player can ruin the match for 4-9 others.

    I don't want to imply that players who bought the game as retail version are all that much better at learning than F2P-players. But there is a different mentality between those who like the game so much that they put effort or money in to get it and those who would not have bothered with it if it wasn't available for free.

    Super MNC comes to my mind back then. During the Invitational Beta most of the players you saw knew their stuff. They were the players who already had experience with the original MNC, had common sense and knew how to play and to adapt to the game - they came consciously into the game because they liked the way it's predecessor played out and thus had actually found the way to the beta registration (= effort put into getting into the game instead of just seeing it up for free on Steam).
    At some point the beta ended and the game (and thus the floodgates) was released on Steam. There was such an influx of guys who didn't know what to do that you couldn't get a good match in several weeks as experienced player. The aftermath can still be felt nowadays: the game probably has less players left now than it had in the invitational beta. Which is understandable, since you can't really expect someone to play through 10-20 horrible, one-sided and frustrating match ups where your team just gets wrecked, in the hope that the 21th game will actually be a good one.
    The devs have pretty much abandoned it with the official reasoning that it just doesn't pay out for them anymore to support it and that they are looking for a new way of getting funding for the game.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    CrushaK wrote: »

    Super MNC comes to my mind back then. During the Invitational Beta most of the players you saw knew their stuff. They were the players who already had experience with the original MNC, had common sense and knew how to play and to adapt to the game - they came consciously into the game because they liked the way it's predecessor played out and thus had actually found the way to the beta registration (= effort put into getting into the game instead of just seeing it up for free on Steam).
    At some point the beta ended and the game (and thus the floodgates) was released on Steam. There was such an influx of guys who didn't know what to do that you couldn't get a good match in several weeks as experienced player. The aftermath can still be felt nowadays: the game probably has less players left now than it had in the invitational beta. Which is understandable, since you can't really expect someone to play through 10-20 horrible, one-sided and frustrating match ups where your team just gets wrecked, in the hope that the 21th game will actually be a good one.
    The devs have pretty much abandoned it with the official reasoning that it just doesn't pay out for them anymore to support it and that they are looking for a new way of getting funding for the game.


    I played a free weekend for the first MNC and it was pretty fun, but I didn't buy it. SuperMNC wasn't as good but still enjoyable, and I didn't feel the effects of pay2win that much, even with the limited hero pool. I stopped playing when the playerbase died and I got tired of the 1gb+ patches all the time. The developers are making the Kickstarter Planetary Annihilation now, right?
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    @CrushaK - The problems you describe can (should? must?) be addressed by a good matchmaking system.

    Blaming the death of a game on having a lot of new players try it out is kind of silly. Games die when they don't get new players, because the existing player base will always have attrition as people grow up and acquire other demands on their time.

    But if a game doesn't have good matchmaking, then the new players it attracts will be less likely to stay as they keep getting into games they can't win, and the existing playerbase will shrink even faster as the veterans keep getting into games that are "ruined" by the new players.
  • GeekavengerGeekavenger Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157117Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    TF2 went free to play after years of being a popular full priced game. If NS2 is that big and they want to go F2P in a few years than I guess go for it. The key to not loosing my business is avoiding community splitting content updates, the reason I stopped buying CoD back in the day was because you are essentially obligated to buy the $15 Map Pack 3 months after the game comes out. As long as everybody can join a server with anybody I am for whatever model makes UWE stick around.

    I would also be up for optional payment methods like that Radio Head album In Rainbows. Here's the content update pay what you can, pay what you think it is worth. If gorgeous is half of what I am expecting I would throw $15 their way no problem. But as long as the rest of the community isn't forced to pay to keep up.
  • DamDSxDamDSx Join Date: 2004-08-10 Member: 30506Members
    Path of Exile has to be the best f2p game ever. my 2 cents.


    You can even add your OWN custom content to the game! you bring an idea and they design it and add it to the game for you, it costs 1000, though, but its awesome!
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    f2p can suck dicky! As well as that damn homing rocket launcher in ps2.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    edited February 2013
    Desther wrote: »
    I played a free weekend for the first MNC and it was pretty fun, but I didn't buy it. SuperMNC wasn't as good but still enjoyable, and I didn't feel the effects of pay2win that much, even with the limited hero pool. I stopped playing when the playerbase died and I got tired of the 1gb+ patches all the time. The developers are making the Kickstarter Planetary Annihilation now, right?

    There was basically no P2W in SMNC, which is something you see rarely. All Pros were pretty affordable and you have a free rotation every week, so you get to play them all without having to grind anything.

    You may blame it on the matchmaking; admittedly they got it pretty late and not when it was needed most (during the time where all the new players came and got stomped so hard by veterans that they would instantly uninstall again). There was another thing that turned against the game at that time: the TF2 players who exploited the F2P model. Uber, in their naiveness, made a cross-promotion with Valve where you can acquire two cosmetic items for TF2 if you reached rank 20 in the game. In the following two weeks could barely play any good game at all because you always had one guy on your team who was not really trying anything or even intentionally sabotaged your team to end the game faster (because once you hit 35 minutes, you stop racking up XP and it eventually becomes more lucrative for fast leveling to just end games quickly). Guys were even running around with names like "Lol, game sucks - I am here for hats!". You really can't wish any dev to get his game treated that way. And the other players could simply not cope with the game's complexity and played bad due to that (I think most didn't even understand all game concepts like "going rambo alone will get you killed and make the enemy team stronger" by the time they reached rank 20). Needless to say that those guys even scared the veterans away.

    However, once the playerbase died, it the matchmaking was more a hurdle than anything. You have to get 10 players of about the same skill level to queue at the same time in the same region (US, EU and Australia, though the latter was always pretty dead and EU is about to follow), gametype (there is Super Crossfire, Turbocross, and Blitz) and queue type (there is Solo-only, Team of 2 and 3, and Team of 5). And players below rank 20 are put into a separate newbie queue and not matched with veterans (so once they hit level 20, the game just turned mad on them and they would feel all the veteran stomp that they never had before in their matches).

    So many different queues split the community even more so that it's almost impossible to find a good game with the matchmaking - at some point it simply has to resort to matching the first ten guys that it finds in a game, but even then did I spend often 45 minutes or more just waiting for a game.
    Even after combining Solo and 2/3-Team queues into a single one, it's still nearly impossible to find a match in a reasonable time. And if you find one, then it's full of veterans who stacked a team together while you get some random newbies on your team.


    And yes, they are working on Planetary Annihilation, though according to some official statement in the forum, the PA team would not be the same as the SMNC team and the Kickstarter would not compromise the work on SMNC. But you kinda got the idea once they talked more and more about PA and less and less about SMNC on their stream. Fans got pretty upset about it and more and more abandoned the game.

    The last actions were that they integrated some technology into their launcher (which fixed the problem with 1 GB downloads, btw. Patching through the launcher only takes around 20-100 MB) where you can provide your idle CPU time to some cloud computing service for science and so on and get free "Crate" Keys in return. Thus far they only use it for BitCoin farming, though.
    And they opened a part of their content up for the modding community so that community modelers would create new skins and cosmetics that they could then integrate into the game with a profit sharing model, like Valve is doing it with TF2 and the Steam Workshop.
    Other than that there hasn't been any content update in months. It's actually funny that the remaining players still wait every week at the same time for a possible update.
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