I personally think that gorge tunnels are a great idea!
From my experience of NS1, aliens were able to teleport from a movement chamber to the closest hive by pressing "e" on a movement chamber; you could also teleport to an unbuilt-hive by pressing "e" on the built-hive when the unbuilt-hive was under attack.
It made for some tense moments.
I know NS2 is a different beast all together but I think this is a nice gameplay mechanic and we'll see how it unfolds when it comes out! I can't wait.
I don't see the problem with it either, marines have their instantaneous phase gates.
Aliens still have to travel down a gorge tunnel, which has to be placed on infestation or territory that is already being held by aliens.
The gorge tunnel could allow marines a shortcut to launch attacks at the hive.
I think its going to be one gorge tunnel per gorge, that would make for some interesting play.
No more getting lost in vents or not knowing where they are or which route is the quickest to get to a destination.
Just hop in the gorge tunnel and you're there in a short period of time. And of course knowledge of the vent system would also help a lot.
Furthermore, you know very well the main reason for that mechanic in NS1 was because the maps were much larger and skulks were slower. (Anyone who hasn't played NS1 - try creating your own server just to try a skulk. You'll think you're running in slow motion compared to how it is now.) In NS1 it took 30 seconds to move between hives. In NS2 it's half that.
No, this is untrue. Skulks were significantly faster in NS1. If you're travelling quicker between hives in NS2, it's because the hive locations are closer to each other (in part due to smaller maps and in part due to one more hive location/tech point on most maps). I really wish you would stop posting anything related to NS1, Savant, because almost every time you do you end up posting misinformation.
As for the impact of gorge tunnels on gameplay, I am mildly skeptical, but need to see how they work in practice before I make up my mind.
What about a heavy assault rifle that fires at 80% the fire rate of LMGs and but has a 15% boost in damage per/sec?
And has 15 more ammo, making it 65 bullets per clip.
HMG wouldn't scale well in my opinion in NS2.
Furthermore, you know very well the main reason for that mechanic in NS1 was because the maps were much larger and skulks were slower. (Anyone who hasn't played NS1 - try creating your own server just to try a skulk. You'll think you're running in slow motion compared to how it is now.) In NS1 it took 30 seconds to move between hives. In NS2 it's half that.
No, this is untrue. Skulks were significantly faster in NS1. If you're travelling quicker between hives in NS2, it's because the hive locations are closer to each other (in part due to smaller maps and in part due to one more hive location/tech point on most maps). I really wish you would stop posting anything related to NS1, Savant, because almost every time you do you end up posting misinformation.
I'm sceptical as to whether or not one can know which skulk was definitively faster without some notion of scale. What I do know for sure is that the difference in speed between skulk and marine has decreased massively between NS1 and NS2. From point A to point B, skulks were between 45-50% faster than marines in NS1, whereas in NS2 they are only around 15% faster.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2013
I'm sure some will read that as elitism or some other bullshit, because they perceive it as a slight against their person. I don't care, I'm tired of being questioned by people who have little to no real experience with what they're talking about, clogging up any and all real progress in the discussion.
I could easily re-do the same tests I did during the beta (to confirm what I already knew to be true) and post the results here, but why should I have to? My word should be enough. If you have any doubts, do some tests for yourself, instead of making me waste my time doing it.
Whats interesting about NS1 vs NS2 in terms of movement speed is that actually the base speeds are faster in NS2. Even without sprint, a NS2 marine is faster than NS1 marine (if you double jumped constantly or wigglewalked or wallstrafed its about the same IIRC). However maps in terms of scale are larger, ie room sizes and height. However as a map overall they are often times in effect much smaller, as tech points and other key rooms are much closer together. In terms of skulks however a bhop skulk from NS1 is much much faster than the skulk in NS2, in terms of pure unit speed a NS1 skulk that could bhop at about 540 sans celerity is somewhere around 10.5 speed in NS2, celerity being around 13~14 speed.
Movement speeds overall need work in NS2, most classes should actually be a little slower base, but should be able to use a common movement mechanic to gain speed to varying degrees of success (marines not very much, skulks the most, etc).
Beyond that, personally I think that a HMG type weapon would really help balance. The shotgun could be tuned to be a more mid-game weapon, and the HMG could come in as a late game weapon. It does not need to match the power of the HMG from NS1, perhaps 16-17 dmg per shot (normal damage), 75-100 round clip, larger spread vs rifle, and half damage to structures like the original (really keeps the importance of the shotgun/gl).
Seeing as Gorge Tunnels are tied to Infestation, they're not going to be used primarily for offensive Alien movement, but to tie secured, infested parts of the map together (Hives). One good thing with that is the possibility for much larger and more varied maps (a new ns_nothing perhaps). Another great benefit will be that when Marines are turtling and don't leave base, the Aliens that die can get back to combat much faster.
I can't see why people are complaining about the Gorge Tunnels concept really. What's so great about holding down the walk key for prolonged periods of time?
I'm sure some will read that as elitism or some other bullshit, because they perceive it as a slight against their person. I don't care, I'm tired of being questioned by people who have little to no real experience with what they're talking about, clogging up any and all real progress in the discussion.
I could easily re-do the same tests I did during the beta (to confirm what I already knew to be true) and post the results here, but why should I have to? My word should be enough. If you have any doubts, do some tests for yourself, instead of making me waste my time doing it.
What test did you do?
Short of placing an NS2 skulk in an NS1 map, I don't know how you could say which is "faster". Did you put an NS2 skulk in an NS1 map?
Now we need somebody that does the same in hammer for ns1, then stop times...
PS: its not that i dont trust fana(i remember pretty well when he did his speed test), i just thought it could be useful if somebody wants to make some test...
You need to decide whether you are allowed to use bunnyhop (ns1) and walljump (ns2). If you have a straight corridor with boosts allowed, I think ns2 skulks are faster.
Considering I tested with a NS1 map in NS2... I think my results are pretty accurate. Considering you can also directly convert units/s from gldsrc to NS2, I dont think you need to do any pointless tests like your indicating.
Wallhop is also horrible for faster map travel times, as it is generally very inefficient (you have to run up a wall to jump downwards to get any real gains). Even if you can burst higher than 10.5 speed comparitively to NS1, your overall speed is much slower and less direct.
I agree with the need for an additional marine weapon between shotgun and Exo. Considering how UWE has clearly stated they do not want any one tech simply outperforming another (LMG = weak HMG), a completely different and unique weapon is called for. I would think it would ideally be similar to a plasma gun concept, perhaps 15 heavy damage per shot base, 30 round clip, and the projectiles have a travel time (albeit a quick one) to give a clear difference to any other weapon.
As far as the question of alien speed, I would trust what Fanatic says as he probably has more hours played in NS1/NS2 than most of us forum goers combined (with the exception of other serious competitive players).
I feel that in NS1 aliens simply had greater staying power due to ranged spores, metabolize, and devour (with its bonus regen) all giving ways to avoid/reduce the effect of taking damage, in addition to larger health pools on most lifeforms (iirc). This could translate into greater "mobility" due to a stronger presence on the map. So gorge tunnels will be a welcome addition to the alien's mobility.
So long as light marines get more toys to compensate, I don't see any real balance issue rising from the new alien tech.
Another great benefit will be that when Marines are turtling and don't leave base, the Aliens that die can get back to combat much faster.
But that's what shifts are for
You're right, but Eggs away from Hives looks weird anyway. With Gorge Tunnels the devs can remove Hatch as it is right now. Instead they can have that ability solely for boosting the rate at which Aliens spawn from Hive Eggs for a short duration or something.
What about a heavy assault rifle that fires at 80% the fire rate of LMGs and but has a 15% boost in damage per/sec?
And has 15 more ammo, making it 65 bullets per clip.
HMG wouldn't scale well in my opinion in NS2.
I think this kind of HMG would be a nice addition indeed. I was thinking more of something around 100 rounds per magazine, with slower rate of fire and higher damage per bullet. But I wouldn't raise the overall DPS compared to the assault rifle by too much though. You don't want to make it completely obsolete. The goal imo is to diversify and have a weapon that's ideal for a sustained fire support role.
Wallhop is also horrible for faster map travel times, as it is generally very inefficient (you have to run up a wall to jump downwards to get any real gains).
You really dont believe people that have vastly more experience regarding this than you at all do you?
Maps can be converted, its a complicated process that involves quite a few steps, generally yields a very poor result in terms of actual brushwork, but is also functional and the exact same dimensions.
Converting from gldsrc units to meters is quite easy, 16 units is a foot.
If you think wallhop is comparable to bhop in terms of travel time and efficiency im not really sure what to tell you, but thats not correct.
Wallhop is also horrible for faster map travel times, as it is generally very inefficient (you have to run up a wall to jump downwards to get any real gains).
wat -.-
It's indeed sitational, but that is the way it works. True there are some areas on some maps where you can gain some nice speed. But most of the time you are just trying to fight against losing your speed, while inevitably losing some of it anyway, due to lack of high walls or ceilings, cluttered geometry or sometimes with structures or a big fat Onos getting in the way. Again its all quite dependent on the area you are in or if there is combat to be had in the area.
Wallhop is also horrible for faster map travel times, as it is generally very inefficient (you have to run up a wall to jump downwards to get any real gains).
wat -.-
It's indeed sitational, but that is the way it works. True there are some areas on some maps where you can gain some nice speed. But most of the time you are just trying to fight against losing your speed, while inevitably losing some of it anyway, due to lack of high walls or ceilings, cluttered geometry or sometimes with structures or a big fat Onos getting in the way. Again its all quite dependent on the area you are in or if there is combat to be had in the area.
It's a good practice to do at any time, running along the ground, even if it may be faster in some areas, will end in death.
If i was getting angry, i would have said something much more blunt. That was simply a statement, especially in reaction to something that is so easily searchable being questioned.
Comments
From my experience of NS1, aliens were able to teleport from a movement chamber to the closest hive by pressing "e" on a movement chamber; you could also teleport to an unbuilt-hive by pressing "e" on the built-hive when the unbuilt-hive was under attack.
It made for some tense moments.
I know NS2 is a different beast all together but I think this is a nice gameplay mechanic and we'll see how it unfolds when it comes out! I can't wait.
I don't see the problem with it either, marines have their instantaneous phase gates.
Aliens still have to travel down a gorge tunnel, which has to be placed on infestation or territory that is already being held by aliens.
The gorge tunnel could allow marines a shortcut to launch attacks at the hive.
I think its going to be one gorge tunnel per gorge, that would make for some interesting play.
No more getting lost in vents or not knowing where they are or which route is the quickest to get to a destination.
Just hop in the gorge tunnel and you're there in a short period of time. And of course knowledge of the vent system would also help a lot.
I can't wait!
edit: grammar + clarity
As for the impact of gorge tunnels on gameplay, I am mildly skeptical, but need to see how they work in practice before I make up my mind.
And has 15 more ammo, making it 65 bullets per clip.
HMG wouldn't scale well in my opinion in NS2.
Agreed, a weapon to tie the mid and late game together is missing. (HMG
I'm sceptical as to whether or not one can know which skulk was definitively faster without some notion of scale. What I do know for sure is that the difference in speed between skulk and marine has decreased massively between NS1 and NS2. From point A to point B, skulks were between 45-50% faster than marines in NS1, whereas in NS2 they are only around 15% faster.
I could easily re-do the same tests I did during the beta (to confirm what I already knew to be true) and post the results here, but why should I have to? My word should be enough. If you have any doubts, do some tests for yourself, instead of making me waste my time doing it.
Movement speeds overall need work in NS2, most classes should actually be a little slower base, but should be able to use a common movement mechanic to gain speed to varying degrees of success (marines not very much, skulks the most, etc).
Beyond that, personally I think that a HMG type weapon would really help balance. The shotgun could be tuned to be a more mid-game weapon, and the HMG could come in as a late game weapon. It does not need to match the power of the HMG from NS1, perhaps 16-17 dmg per shot (normal damage), 75-100 round clip, larger spread vs rifle, and half damage to structures like the original (really keeps the importance of the shotgun/gl).
I can't see why people are complaining about the Gorge Tunnels concept really. What's so great about holding down the walk key for prolonged periods of time?
What test did you do?
Short of placing an NS2 skulk in an NS1 map, I don't know how you could say which is "faster". Did you put an NS2 skulk in an NS1 map?
Now we need somebody that does the same in hammer for ns1, then stop times...
PS: its not that i dont trust fana(i remember pretty well when he did his speed test), i just thought it could be useful if somebody wants to make some test...
What's a meter?
Wallhop is also horrible for faster map travel times, as it is generally very inefficient (you have to run up a wall to jump downwards to get any real gains). Even if you can burst higher than 10.5 speed comparitively to NS1, your overall speed is much slower and less direct.
As far as the question of alien speed, I would trust what Fanatic says as he probably has more hours played in NS1/NS2 than most of us forum goers combined (with the exception of other serious competitive players).
I feel that in NS1 aliens simply had greater staying power due to ranged spores, metabolize, and devour (with its bonus regen) all giving ways to avoid/reduce the effect of taking damage, in addition to larger health pools on most lifeforms (iirc). This could translate into greater "mobility" due to a stronger presence on the map. So gorge tunnels will be a welcome addition to the alien's mobility.
So long as light marines get more toys to compensate, I don't see any real balance issue rising from the new alien tech.
How? Can they be converted?
Citation required
I think this kind of HMG would be a nice addition indeed. I was thinking more of something around 100 rounds per magazine, with slower rate of fire and higher damage per bullet. But I wouldn't raise the overall DPS compared to the assault rifle by too much though. You don't want to make it completely obsolete. The goal imo is to diversify and have a weapon that's ideal for a sustained fire support role.
wat -.-
Maps can be converted, its a complicated process that involves quite a few steps, generally yields a very poor result in terms of actual brushwork, but is also functional and the exact same dimensions.
Converting from gldsrc units to meters is quite easy, 16 units is a foot.
If you think wallhop is comparable to bhop in terms of travel time and efficiency im not really sure what to tell you, but thats not correct.
It's indeed sitational, but that is the way it works. True there are some areas on some maps where you can gain some nice speed. But most of the time you are just trying to fight against losing your speed, while inevitably losing some of it anyway, due to lack of high walls or ceilings, cluttered geometry or sometimes with structures or a big fat Onos getting in the way. Again its all quite dependent on the area you are in or if there is combat to be had in the area.
I'm asking questions are you are getting angry. Never trust someone who gets angry at questions. Especially when the question asks for proof.
They typically know absolutely nothing.
It's a good practice to do at any time, running along the ground, even if it may be faster in some areas, will end in death.